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John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS

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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS

Post by mike7777 on 22.11.15 12:15

@BlueBag wrote:
@mike7777 wrote:
@Richard IV wrote:It was a BLOOD dog that alerted, so it was BLOOD.

the alerts have to have forensic confirmation to be of value according to Grime  so in the real world the alert has no value
"be of value" or "be of legal value". 

These dogs are good - exceptional even.

Blood dog alerts.. DNA is found... 

It's not difficult.

it's not difficult to make the wrong assumption.....why should there be a difference between value and legal value...they either have value as evidence or not...and the alerts do not without confirmation

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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS

Post by BlueBag on 22.11.15 12:23

@mike7777 wrote:
@BlueBag wrote:
@mike7777 wrote:
@Richard IV wrote:It was a BLOOD dog that alerted, so it was BLOOD.

the alerts have to have forensic confirmation to be of value according to Grime  so in the real world the alert has no value
"be of value" or "be of legal value". 

These dogs are good - exceptional even.

Blood dog alerts.. DNA is found... 

It's not difficult.

it's not difficult to make the wrong assumption.....why should there be a difference between value and legal value...they either have value as evidence or not...and the alerts do not without confirmation
OK, let's cut to the chase.

You came here to diss the dogs.

Tell us... what did the blood dog alert to?
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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS

Post by Verdi on 22.11.15 12:23

@mike7777 wrote:
@Richard IV wrote:It was a BLOOD dog that alerted, so it was BLOOD.

the alerts have to have forensic confirmation to be of value according to Grime  so in the real world the alert has no value
In a court of law as stand alone evidence no, it would have little value BUT as intelligence in a criminal investigation it's a minefield! 

Had a positive result emanated from the FSS analysis of the samples harvested, i.e. a positive match to MBM's DNA, that would be evidence in itself.  Do you think that could be the reason why such conflicting reports initially came out of the FSS and why the final report was so evasive?  Remember, it's not only this isolated sample analysis that proved inconclusive, if I remember correctly the same applied to almost every sample analyzed by the FSS laboratories appertaining to the investigation into MBM's disappearance.

Thought for the day:  Did you know that the father of genetic fingerprinting, Dr. Alec Jeffreys, hails from the University of Leicester (he even had his EUREKA moment there) and is affiliated with the University of Amsterdam through earlier years in his illustrious career?

Small world!

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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS

Post by mike7777 on 22.11.15 12:43

@BlueBag wrote:
@mike7777 wrote:
@BlueBag wrote:
@mike7777 wrote:
@Richard IV wrote:It was a BLOOD dog that alerted, so it was BLOOD.

the alerts have to have forensic confirmation to be of value according to Grime  so in the real world the alert has no value
"be of value" or "be of legal value". 

These dogs are good - exceptional even.

Blood dog alerts.. DNA is found... 

It's not difficult.

it's not difficult to make the wrong assumption.....why should there be a difference between value and legal value...they either have value as evidence or not...and the alerts do not without confirmation
OK, let's cut to the chase.

You came here to diss the dogs.

Tell us... what did the blood dog alert to?
I came here to comment on this topic...I don't believe Maddie's body was ever in the car...I don't think the dog's indicated she was

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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS

Post by mike7777 on 22.11.15 12:46

@Verdi wrote:
@mike7777 wrote:
@Richard IV wrote:It was a BLOOD dog that alerted, so it was BLOOD.

the alerts have to have forensic confirmation to be of value according to Grime  so in the real world the alert has no value
In a court of law as stand alone evidence no, it would have little value BUT as intelligence in a criminal investigation it's a minefield! 

Had a positive result emanated from the FSS analysis of the samples harvested, i.e. a positive match to MBM's DNA, that would be evidence in itself.  Do you think that could be the reason why such conflicting reports initially came out of the FSS and why the final report was so evasive?  Remember, it's not only this isolated sample analysis that proved inconclusive, if I remember correctly the same applied to almost every sample analyzed by the FSS laboratories appertaining to the investigation into MBM's disappearance.

Thought for the day:  Did you know that the father of genetic fingerprinting, Dr. Alec Jeffreys, hails from the University of Leicester (he even had his EUREKA moment there) and is affiliated with the University of Amsterdam through earlier years in his illustrious career?

Small world!

as I have already said the presence of Maddie's DNA in the car would prove nothing...what are you suggesting re Alec Jeffreys

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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS

Post by BlueBag on 22.11.15 13:27

It was incredibly evasive.

It was a masterpiece in evasiveness.

The context of the blood dog alert was one of the evasions.
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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS

Post by mike7777 on 22.11.15 13:39

@BlueBag wrote:It was incredibly evasive.

It was a masterpiece in evasiveness.

The context of the blood dog alert was one of the evasions.

I don't find it evasive at all

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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS

Post by Dr What on 22.11.15 13:44

I have posted previously on this forum that my daughter trains dogs.

She, and all her colleagues, trust the abilities of these dogs.They all believe that there was blood in that car.

The whole issue about the DNA testing and whether it was a match to Madeleine's, I'll leave to others to debate.

But where those dogs alerted, both to blood and cadaver odour, I believe there was blood and a dead body.

I think the McCanns and their assistants had never bargained for this development in the investigation and certainly not for it to become public knowledge.

In itself, it is not enough for a prosecution to be bought.However, I think the McCanns will always be judged in the court of public opinion in the light of these findings.They are very vulnerable whenever the dogs findings are discussed.

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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS

Post by mike7777 on 22.11.15 13:54

@Dr What wrote:I have posted previously on this forum that my daughter trains dogs.

She, and all her colleagues, trust the abilities of these dogs.They all believe that there was blood in that car.

The whole issue about the DNA testing and whether it was a match to Madeleine's, I'll leave to others to debate.

But where those dogs alerted, both to blood and cadaver odour, I believe there was blood and a dead body.

I think the McCanns and their assistants had never bargained for this development in the investigation and certainly not for it to become public knowledge.

In itself, it is not enough for a prosecution to be bought.However, I think the McCanns will always be judged in the court of public opinion in the light of these findings.They are very vulnerable whenever the dogs findings are discussed.

there was blood in the car belonging to Gerry....you and your daughter can believe what you choose....people believe different things but that does not make them true.  I don't believe for one minute there ever was a body in that car....but that's just my beleif

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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS

Post by HiDeHo on 22.11.15 13:56

@mike7777 wrote:
@Verdi wrote:
@mike7777 wrote:
@Richard IV wrote:It was a BLOOD dog that alerted, so it was BLOOD.

the alerts have to have forensic confirmation to be of value according to Grime  so in the real world the alert has no value
In a court of law as stand alone evidence no, it would have little value BUT as intelligence in a criminal investigation it's a minefield! 

Had a positive result emanated from the FSS analysis of the samples harvested, i.e. a positive match to MBM's DNA, that would be evidence in itself.  Do you think that could be the reason why such conflicting reports initially came out of the FSS and why the final report was so evasive?  Remember, it's not only this isolated sample analysis that proved inconclusive, if I remember correctly the same applied to almost every sample analyzed by the FSS laboratories appertaining to the investigation into MBM's disappearance.

(snipped)

as I have already said the presence of Maddie's DNA in the car would prove nothing...(snipped)


You are correct that the presence of DNA in the car would mean nothing.  It is likely that a lot of Maddie's DNA could be found on the articles transported in the car.

Thats why the PJ brought in a BLOOD dog.  Keela ONLY alerts to blood.





Maddie's BLOOD in the car would be VERY important.


See 1.00 for Martin Grime's testimony in the trial

Martin Grime's CADAVER dog is KEY EVIDENCE for GUILTY VERDICT in Bianca Jones trial.

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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS

Post by MRNOODLES on 22.11.15 13:59

@mike7777 wrote:
@BlueBag wrote:It was incredibly evasive.

It was a masterpiece in evasiveness.

The context of the blood dog alert was one of the evasions.

I don't find it evasive at all
FWIW imo i found it evasive in the way you played dumb over  "be of value" or "be of legal value".  but that's just me...
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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS

Post by mike7777 on 22.11.15 14:01

@HiDeHo wrote:
@mike7777 wrote:
@Verdi wrote:
@mike7777 wrote:
@Richard IV wrote:It was a BLOOD dog that alerted, so it was BLOOD.

the alerts have to have forensic confirmation to be of value according to Grime  so in the real world the alert has no value
In a court of law as stand alone evidence no, it would have little value BUT as intelligence in a criminal investigation it's a minefield! 

Had a positive result emanated from the FSS analysis of the samples harvested, i.e. a positive match to MBM's DNA, that would be evidence in itself.  Do you think that could be the reason why such conflicting reports initially came out of the FSS and why the final report was so evasive?  Remember, it's not only this isolated sample analysis that proved inconclusive, if I remember correctly the same applied to almost every sample analyzed by the FSS laboratories appertaining to the investigation into MBM's disappearance.

(snipped)

as I have already said the presence of Maddie's DNA in the car would prove nothing...(snipped)


You are correct that the presence of DNA in the car would mean nothing.  It is likely that a lot of Maddie's DNA could be found on the articles transported in the car.

Thats why the PJ brought in a BLOOD dog.  Keela ONLY alerts to blood.





Maddie's BLOOD in the car would be VERY important.


See 1.00 for Martin Grime's testimony in the trial

Martin Grime's CADAVER dog is KEY EVIDENCE for GUILTY VERDICT in Bianca Jones trial.


martin Grime was asked in his rogatory if the alert to cuddle cat was confirmation of cadaver odour...he was evasive and did not give a straight answer. he was also asked the same question about another of the alerts by eddie and again did not give a straight answer. What he did say that to be confirmed the alerts must be confirmed by forensics

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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS

Post by mike7777 on 22.11.15 14:02

@MRNOODLES wrote:
@mike7777 wrote:
@BlueBag wrote:It was incredibly evasive.

It was a masterpiece in evasiveness.

The context of the blood dog alert was one of the evasions.

I don't find it evasive at all
FWIW imo i found it evasive in the way you played dumb over  "be of value" or "be of legal value".  but that's just me...
then I will answer the question again as you seem to have missed it...what's the difference...the alerts either have value or not

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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS

Post by Dr What on 22.11.15 14:14

Mike7777.....you do seem rather excitable.

I did not say that I believed that there was a body in the car.What I said was that I trust what the people who work in this field tell me, and that is there was blood in that car.

You say it was Gerry's blood.I am not sure how you KNOW that, but that is your prerogative.

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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS

Post by HiDeHo on 22.11.15 14:18

@mike7777 wrote:martin Grime was asked in his rogatory if the alert to cuddle cat was confirmation of cadaver odour...he was evasive and did not give a straight answer. he was also asked the same question about another of the alerts by eddie and again did not give a straight answer. What he did say that to be confirmed the alerts must be confirmed by forensics




One can see with their own eyes that Eddie alerted to Cuddlecat.

Eddie ignores the cupboard until Cuddlecat is put inside without his knowledge... only THEN does he alert.

Individual alerts can be questioned forever, as has happened in the groups and forums for the last 8 years, but how does one explain 17 alerts to things ONLY associated with the McCanns?


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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS

Post by mike7777 on 22.11.15 14:21

@HiDeHo wrote:One can see with their own eyes that Eddie alerted to Cuddlecat.

Eddie ignores the cupboard until Cuddlecat is put inside without his knowledge... only THEN does he alert.

Individual alerts can be questioned forever, as has happened in the groups and forums for the last 8 years, but how does one explain 17 alerts to things ONLY associated with the McCanns?



Eddie originally did not alert to cuddlecat. Not only that but according to the PJ and as evidenced in the files eddie repeatedly ignored things before being led back repeatedly by Grime

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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS

Post by HiDeHo on 22.11.15 14:31

@mike7777 wrote:


Eddie originally did not alert to cuddlecat. Not only that but according to the PJ and as evidenced in the files eddie repeatedly ignored things before being led back repeatedly by Grime


Eddie had been rewarded with a soft toy and thats why he picked it up and threw it...

That is the reason that Cuddlecat was taken an put out of his view...

He had no interest in the cupboard UNTIL Cuddlecat was put in there without his knowledge.

There is no 'timeframe' that a dog has to alert, but when they DO alert it is because they recognise the scent they were trained to alert to.

They can't be forced to alert.
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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS

Post by HiDeHo on 22.11.15 15:12

It's a FACT that the dogs WERE successful in this case.

BOTH Keela and Eddie alerted in the same place. - Successful

Forensics were retrieved from the blood spots that Keela alerted to - Successful

As John Lowe said..... there was a MATCH to Madeleine's DNA in the car

One member of HDH puts it very clearly, referencing the report by John Lowe FSS...



Re the DNA sample found in the car ; .... 


The report states - "What we need to consider, as scientists, is whether the match is genuine – because Madeleine has deposited DNA as a result of being in the car, or whether Madeleine merely appears to match the result by chance."…

Lets look at this statement – firstly, when scientists refer to a ' match ' they mean that the DNA found in the evidence sample was anaylised and 'matched' a particular individuals reference sample. Thats not 3 or 5 different peoples reference samples, that is one persons reference sample. In this case the reference sample just happened to belong to Madeleine Mccann.

So they question , was it genuine -because she ( Madeleine) deposited it there. Or did Madeleine's DNA ' match' get there by chance. 

In order for anyone to consider if it was genuine or not, it had to have been considered a ' match' , otherwise there would be no point in considering whether or not it was genuine, – . 

How this 'match' got there is the question !! 

To suggest 3 to 5 other people not only incredibly share MM's DNA profile but just so happened to be in the very same vehicle is just beyond belief ! 

To suggest 3 to 5 other peoples DNA magically mixed together and Just so happened to make up the same DNA sequence/ profile as MM, the very person missing, is just stretching the imagination a little too far imo.....

The report also states : 

“ Departing from the principle that all confirmed DNA components within the scope of this result originated from a single source, then these pointed to corresponding components in the profile of Madeleine McCann;” 

It has to be questioned what the writer is saying here, departing from what principle?- The principle fact, that the result contained all confirmed matching markers corresponding to the sequence of those in Madeleine McCann’s profile sample?


Food for thought : .. quote - “it is the specific combination of 19 components that makes her profile unique above all others. “

“Of these 19 components 15 are present within the result from this item;”

Quote from the report ; - “For example, the probability of two first cousins having the same profile is of the order of one to one hundred million (1 to 100-million).”

and finally : .... Mixed samples can be very complex, but if when analysing a sample a major source or profile of a contributor emerges and is identified, then that persons profile can be seen and treated as a single source profile …… WHY did they departed from this principal ?
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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS

Post by mike7777 on 22.11.15 15:36

@HiDeHo wrote:It's a FACT that the dogs WERE successful in this case.

BOTH Keela and Eddie alerted in the same place. - Successful

Forensics were retrieved from the blood spots that Keela alerted to - Successful

As John Lowe said..... there was a MATCH to Madeleine's DNA in the car

One member of HDH puts it very clearly, referencing the report by John Lowe FSS...



Re the DNA sample found in the car ; .... 


The report states - "What we need to consider, as scientists, is whether the match is genuine – because Madeleine has deposited DNA as a result of being in the car, or whether Madeleine merely appears to match the result by chance."…

Lets look at this statement – firstly, when scientists refer to a ' match ' they mean that the DNA found in the evidence sample was anaylised and 'matched' a particular individuals reference sample. Thats not 3 or 5 different peoples reference samples, that is one persons reference sample. In this case the reference sample just happened to belong to Madeleine Mccann.

So they question , was it genuine -because she ( Madeleine) deposited it there. Or did Madeleine's DNA ' match' get there by chance. 

In order for anyone to consider if it was genuine or not, it had to have been considered a ' match' , otherwise there would be no point in considering whether or not it was genuine, – . 

How this 'match' got there is the question !! 

To suggest 3 to 5 other people not only incredibly share MM's DNA profile but just so happened to be in the very same vehicle is just beyond belief ! 

To suggest 3 to 5 other peoples DNA magically mixed together and Just so happened to make up the same DNA sequence/ profile as MM, the very person missing, is just stretching the imagination a little too far imo.....

The report also states : 

“ Departing from the principle that all confirmed DNA components within the scope of this result originated from a single source, then these pointed to corresponding components in the profile of Madeleine McCann;” 

It has to be questioned what the writer is saying here, departing from what principle?- The principle fact, that the result contained all confirmed matching markers corresponding to the sequence of those in Madeleine McCann’s profile sample?


Food for thought : .. quote - “it is the specific combination of 19 components that makes her profile unique above all others. “

“Of these 19 components 15 are present within the result from this item;”

Quote from the report ; - “For example, the probability of two first cousins having the same profile is of the order of one to one hundred million (1 to 100-million).”

and finally : .... Mixed samples can be very complex, but if when analysing a sample a major source or profile of a contributor emerges and is identified, then that persons profile can be seen and treated as a single source profile …… WHY did they departed from this principal ?
This statement simply doesn't make any scientific sense...he has made one assumption highlighted in red...

What Lowe said was that they found 15 markers that were part of Maddie's profile...these 15 markers however came from a soup of DNA that 3 poeple had contributed too...there was no way of knowing whether only one person had contributed all 15 markers ...there could have been a partial contribution from all three...that's why they could not say whether the dna belonged to Madddie...person s who could have contributed to the soup were Maddies family...all who would share some of the markers

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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS

Post by HiDeHo on 22.11.15 16:19

What John Lowe told us is that there is a MATCH to Maddie but it is not possible to decide whether it existed because she was IN the car or whether it was a chance match.

This means that noone can state that Maddie WASN'T in the car...

She is NOT excluded and therefore, the suggestion from the investigation that she died and the parents hid her body and simulated an abduction MAY BE CORRECT.

This does not mean NO evidence, it means there is no PROOF she was in the car but its POSSIBLE.

It is your prerogative to have the opinion she wasn't in the car but it does not mean you are correct.
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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS

Post by mike7777 on 22.11.15 16:28

@HiDeHo wrote:What John Lowe told us is that there is a MATCH to Maddie but it is not possible to decide whether it existed because she was IN the car or whether it was a chance match.

This means that noone can state that Maddie WASN'T in the car...

She is NOT excluded and therefore, the suggestion from the investigation that she died and the parents hid her body and simulated an abduction MAY BE CORRECT.

This does not mean NO evidence, it means there is no PROOF she was in the car but its POSSIBLE.

It is your prerogative to have the opinion she wasn't in the car but it does not mean you are correct.

I agree...we do not know if maddie had been in the car......so everything is speculation. I understand exactly what lowe said...

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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS

Post by BlueBag on 22.11.15 16:37

@mike7777 wrote:
@HiDeHo wrote:What John Lowe told us is that there is a MATCH to Maddie but it is not possible to decide whether it existed because she was IN the car or whether it was a chance match.

This means that noone can state that Maddie WASN'T in the car...

She is NOT excluded and therefore, the suggestion from the investigation that she died and the parents hid her body and simulated an abduction MAY BE CORRECT.

This does not mean NO evidence, it means there is no PROOF she was in the car but its POSSIBLE.

It is your prerogative to have the opinion she wasn't in the car but it does not mean you are correct.

I agree...we do not know if maddie had been in the car......so everything is speculation. I understand exactly what lowe said...
The language used for "chance match" was an extraordinary obfuscation and ignored the context of the DNA find, which was that a BLOOD dog indicated it.
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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS

Post by mike7777 on 22.11.15 16:44

@BlueBag wrote:
@mike7777 wrote:
@HiDeHo wrote:What John Lowe told us is that there is a MATCH to Maddie but it is not possible to decide whether it existed because she was IN the car or whether it was a chance match.

This means that noone can state that Maddie WASN'T in the car...

She is NOT excluded and therefore, the suggestion from the investigation that she died and the parents hid her body and simulated an abduction MAY BE CORRECT.

This does not mean NO evidence, it means there is no PROOF she was in the car but its POSSIBLE.

It is your prerogative to have the opinion she wasn't in the car but it does not mean you are correct.

I agree...we do not know if maddie had been in the car......so everything is speculation. I understand exactly what lowe said...
The language used for "chance match" was an extraordinary obfuscation and ignored the context of the DNA find, which was that a BLOOD dog indicated it.

the cellular material could not be confirmed as blood by the lab

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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS

Post by BlueBag on 22.11.15 16:47

@mike7777 wrote:
@BlueBag wrote:
@mike7777 wrote:
@HiDeHo wrote:What John Lowe told us is that there is a MATCH to Maddie but it is not possible to decide whether it existed because she was IN the car or whether it was a chance match.

This means that noone can state that Maddie WASN'T in the car...

She is NOT excluded and therefore, the suggestion from the investigation that she died and the parents hid her body and simulated an abduction MAY BE CORRECT.

This does not mean NO evidence, it means there is no PROOF she was in the car but its POSSIBLE.

It is your prerogative to have the opinion she wasn't in the car but it does not mean you are correct.

I agree...we do not know if maddie had been in the car......so everything is speculation. I understand exactly what lowe said...
The language used for "chance match" was an extraordinary obfuscation and ignored the context of the DNA find, which was that a BLOOD dog indicated it.

the cellular material could not be confirmed as blood by the lab
The BLOOD dog indicated it and it was indeed DNA material.

Work it out.

You'll be telling us to "ask the dogs" next.
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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS

Post by mike7777 on 22.11.15 16:51

@BlueBag wrote:
@mike7777 wrote:
@BlueBag wrote:
@mike7777 wrote:
@HiDeHo wrote:What John Lowe told us is that there is a MATCH to Maddie but it is not possible to decide whether it existed because she was IN the car or whether it was a chance match.

This means that noone can state that Maddie WASN'T in the car...

She is NOT excluded and therefore, the suggestion from the investigation that she died and the parents hid her body and simulated an abduction MAY BE CORRECT.

This does not mean NO evidence, it means there is no PROOF she was in the car but its POSSIBLE.

It is your prerogative to have the opinion she wasn't in the car but it does not mean you are correct.

I agree...we do not know if maddie had been in the car......so everything is speculation. I understand exactly what lowe said...
The language used for "chance match" was an extraordinary obfuscation and ignored the context of the DNA find, which was that a BLOOD dog indicated it.

the cellular material could not be confirmed as blood by the lab
The BLOOD dog indicated it and it was indeed DNA material.

Work it out.

You'll be telling us to "ask the dogs" next.

you need to understand it is not the alert that is important but the forensic analysis of what is found.

mike7777

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