Re: Police to review evidence collected from apt 5a

by maebee 26.10.14 23:59

Moon Goddess wrote:I do try to "keep the faith" and hate to bring negativity to the forum, but I find it all mind blowing... sometimes I genuinely believe there's some sort of f***ed up social experiment going on...

Anyway, praying that this 10 mill is being used to expose something far bigger than just what happened to Madeleine, because I don't believe for one second it would cost THAT amount of money to discover the truth there!

I feel that too MG. The facts of this case are blindingly obvious. Lesser brains (us) than Scotland Yard's finest have seen this from week one. Three and a half year's work from SY and 10 million pounds from the UK taxpayers and nothing to show. Incredible. If you or I were contracted to do a job and given €10 million to do it, we'd be expected to come up with a result a lot less sooner.

The Optimist in me is saying that SY are dotting the I's and crossing the T's but ........... if that's the case, hurry the f up. A three year old girl needs justice now. She's waited far too long.

by Okeydokey 27.10.14 0:07

maebee wrote:
Moon Goddess wrote:I do try to "keep the faith" and hate to bring negativity to the forum, but I find it all mind blowing... sometimes I genuinely believe there's some sort of f***ed up social experiment going on...

Anyway, praying that this 10 mill is being used to expose something far bigger than just what happened to Madeleine, because I don't believe for one second it would cost THAT amount of money to discover the truth there!

I feel that too MG. The facts of this case are blindingly obvious. Lesser brains (us) than Scotland Yard's finest have seen this from week one. Three and a half year's work from SY and 10 million pounds from the UK taxpayers and nothing to show. Incredible. If you or I were contracted to do a job and given €10 million to do it, we'd be expected to come up with a result a lot less sooner.

The Optimist in me is saying that SY are dotting the I's and crossing the T's but ........... if that's the case, hurry the f up. A three year old girl needs justice now. She's waited far too long.

I really can't accept as serious an SY inquiry that doesn't - as far as we know - begin with re-interview of all the Tapas 9 with far more testing questioning than we see in the rogatories.

Everything A. Redwood has said suggests that such interviews have not taken place.

by Brian Griffin 27.10.14 4:41

And they never will because the truth lies where the lies lie, and we all know where that is!

In my opinion.

by Guest 27.10.14 9:29

palm tree wrote:I don't think blood from a grazed knee or a nosebleed could end up seeping under floor tiles, on the wall or on the curtains.
Imo

Yes. But it's an explanation. And it appears any tenous explanation is accepted without question in this case. Kate visiting dead patients in her holiday clothes, anyone? A miraculously healed Achilles, perhaps? A dog bite on a routine jog? Sea bass?

by palm tree 27.10.14 10:29

Dee Coy wrote:
palm tree wrote:I don't think blood from a grazed knee or a nosebleed could end up seeping under floor tiles, on the wall or on the curtains.
Imo
Yes. But it's an explanation. And it appears any tenous explanation is accepted without question in this case. Kate visiting dead patients in her holiday clothes, anyone? A miraculously healed Achilles, perhaps? A dog bite on a routine jog? Sea bass?

I know Dee Coy, everything seems to be accepted by what the mcs say, although mr&mrs have never admitted to a nosebleed (that I know off). If it's found that Madeleine's blood is on the curtain, maybe then we'll get oh I remember now, Madeleine actually did have a nosebleed.
IMO

by Guest 27.10.14 11:00

Not from Amaral's book, but from 'A Estrela de Madeleine' by his colleague, Paulo Cristovao. He details some of the questions and answers given during Kate's first interrogation, and a nosebleed is referred to:

"- We detected blood traces in the living room, madam.

- That could have been from the day that my daughter bled from her nose."

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I don't know how accurate the transcript of the interview is, as related in the book. Kate's interviewer, Joao Tavaresme, is not the author of the book.

by palm tree 27.10.14 11:35

Dee Coy wrote:Not from Amaral's book, but from 'A Estrela de Madeleine' by his colleague, Paulo Cristovao. He details some of the questions and answers given during Kate's first interrogation, and a nosebleed is referred to:

"- We detected blood traces in the living room, madam.

- That could have been from the day that my daughter bled from her nose."

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I don't know how accurate the transcript of the interview is, as related in the book. Kate's interviewer, Joao Tavaresme, is not the author of the book.

Ah, so that's that covered then. But, as pennylane reminded me, it still doesn't explain the cadaver odour. One thing though, if km accepts that Keela is right and did actually find Madeleine's blood, how can she say Eddie is wrong when he alerted in the same spot as Keela?
IMO

by Joss 27.10.14 11:53

I am a bit surprised that once the dogs alerted to blood & cadaver that the police/forensics didn't use Luminol to back up the dog's evidence for detection of blood? And perhaps more traces of blood could have shown up with the luminol in the general area where the dog/s alerted?

What Does Luminol Do?

Much of crime scene investigation, also called criminalistics, is based on the notion that nothing vanishes without a trace. This is particularly true of violent crime victims. A murderer can dispose of the victim's body and mop up the pools of [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], but without some heavy-duty cleaning chemicals, some evidence will remain. Tiny particles of blood will cling to most surfaces for years and years, without anyone ever knowing they're there.
The basic idea of luminol is to reveal these traces with a light-producing chemical reaction between several chemicals and hemoglobin, an oxygen-carrying protein in the blood. The molecules break down and the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] rearrange to form different molecules (see [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] for more information on chemical reactions). In this particular reaction, the reactants (the original molecules) have more energy than the products (the resulting molecules). The molecules get rid of the extra energy in the form of visible [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]. This process, generally known as chemiluminescence, is the same phenomenon that makes [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] glow.
Investigators will spray a suspicious area, turn out all the lights and block the windows, and look for a bluish-green light. If there are any blood traces in the area, they will glow.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

by jozi 27.10.14 13:24

Joss wrote:I am a bit surprised that once the dogs alerted to blood & cadaver that the police/forensics didn't use Luminol to back up the dog's evidence for detection of blood? And perhaps more traces of blood could have shown up with the luminol in the general area where the dog/s alerted?

What Does Luminol Do?

Much of crime scene investigation, also called criminalistics, is based on the notion that nothing vanishes without a trace. This is particularly true of violent crime victims. A murderer can dispose of the victim's body and mop up the pools of [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], but without some heavy-duty cleaning chemicals, some evidence will remain. Tiny particles of blood will cling to most surfaces for years and years, without anyone ever knowing they're there.
The basic idea of luminol is to reveal these traces with a light-producing chemical reaction between several chemicals and hemoglobin, an oxygen-carrying protein in the blood. The molecules break down and the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] rearrange to form different molecules (see [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] for more information on chemical reactions). In this particular reaction, the reactants (the original molecules) have more energy than the products (the resulting molecules). The molecules get rid of the extra energy in the form of visible [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]. This process, generally known as chemiluminescence, is the same phenomenon that makes [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] glow.
Investigators will spray a suspicious area, turn out all the lights and block the windows, and look for a bluish-green light. If there are any blood traces in the area, they will glow.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I also wondered at the time why they did not use this or anything like it ?

by Snifferdog 27.10.14 13:36

Me too Joss.
Perhaps it was done, but not made public?

by Joss 27.10.14 13:57

Snifferdog wrote:Me too Joss.
Perhaps it was done, but not made public?

Snifferdog, Yes that could well be if all of the evidence in the case has not been made public.

by Joss 27.10.14 14:27

The blood spatter on the walls of the McCann apartment would not be from a nosebleed IMO. A nosebleed because of gravity will usually drip or pour out of the nose depending on how bad the nosebleed is. It does not spatter or spray onto walls. So if the blood on the walls is definitely Madeleine's there was some kind of serious trauma to her body.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Here is info. on the types of blood patterns from crime scenes for anyone interested in reading,
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I really don't know what to think about the type of trauma the little girl sustained, if as i mentioned the blood is indeed from her? But i am inclined to agree with Mr. Amaral if i had to guess at what happened to her.

by Guest 27.10.14 17:38

Joss wrote:
I really don't know what to think about the type of trauma the little girl sustained, if as i mentioned the blood is indeed from her? But i am inclined to agree with Mr. Amaral if i had to guess at what happened to her.

Do you have a link to that theory of Dr Amaral's, Joss?

I've only ever heard him refer to 'an accident'. Has he suggested something more specific and I've missed it?

by Wahrheit 27.10.14 18:17

Joss wrote:
Snifferdog wrote:Me too Joss.
Perhaps it was done, but not made public?
Snifferdog, Yes that could well be if all of the evidence in the case has not been made public.

Luninol can be neutralized by the use of bleach, as in, say, a clean up. Was there not a question from the PJ about who might have had access to muriatic acid?

by **Nina** 27.10.14 18:55

Wahrheit wrote:
Joss wrote:
Snifferdog wrote:Me too Joss.
Perhaps it was done, but not made public?
Snifferdog, Yes that could well be if all of the evidence in the case has not been made public.
Luninol can be neutralized by the use of bleach, as in, say, a clean up. Was there not a question from the PJ about who might have had access to muriatic acid?

I have a vague memory of that as it linked to the pool cleaner, the estranged husband of Robert Murat's new wife.

by Joss 28.10.14 3:10

Dee Coy wrote:
Joss wrote:
I really don't know what to think about the type of trauma the little girl sustained, if as i mentioned the blood is indeed from her? But i am inclined to agree with Mr. Amaral if i had to guess at what happened to her.

Do you have a link to that theory of Dr Amaral's, Joss?

I've only ever heard him refer to 'an accident'. Has he suggested something more specific and I've missed it?

No an accident is right, which would be quite a trauma if Madeline fell on a tiled floor, which possibly could have killed her.

by Joss 28.10.14 5:25

Wahrheit wrote:
Joss wrote:
Snifferdog wrote:Me too Joss.
Perhaps it was done, but not made public?
Snifferdog, Yes that could well be if all of the evidence in the case has not been made public.
Luninol can be neutralized by the use of bleach, as in, say, a clean up. Was there not a question from the PJ about who might have had access to muriatic acid?

It would depend on the type of cleaning agent was used:

Understanding Bleach And Evidence

To understand how it all works, you have to consider that there are two kinds of bleach that are found in the majority of cleaning products within your home. There are bleaches that are primarily chlorine and there is also oxygen bleach.
Chlorine bleaches can remove a [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] to the naked eye but fortunately, forensics experts can use the application of substances such as luminol or phenolphthalein to show that haemoglobin is present. In fact, even if the shady criminal washed a bloodstained item of clothing 10 times, these chemicals could still reveal blood.

In this case blood was still detected and notice in the picture that i posted in the link that was provided part of the flooring/tiles/skirting board were removed where blood was detected on the walls. Were there ever any results revealed about that floor/tile/skirting board evidence?

by Joss 28.10.14 6:08

Then there was this evidence also

Blood

There is also the evidence of a "partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom which had traces of blood in it visible to the naked eye, according to a forensics report.

Laboratory tests in Birmingham were inconclusive but found there was a "moderate" chance the blood was the youngster's. There were also specks of blood said to be on the walls of the bedroom, but forensic results have been inconclusive.

[color:0442=000000][You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

by Daryl Dixon 28.10.14 8:19

Joss wrote:Then there was this evidence also

Blood

There is also the evidence of a "partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom which had traces of blood in it visible to the naked eye, according to a forensics report.

Laboratory tests in Birmingham were inconclusive but found there was a "moderate" chance the blood was the youngster's. There were also specks of blood said to be on the walls of the bedroom, but forensic results have been inconclusive.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

The bloody footprint is a myth started by one of the tabloids. It's not mentioned in any forensic report. Not as far as I know anyway.

by Snifferdog 28.10.14 8:44

Daryl Dixon wrote:
Joss wrote:Then there was this evidence also

Blood

There is also the evidence of a "partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom which had traces of blood in it visible to the naked eye, according to a forensics report.

Laboratory tests in Birmingham were inconclusive but found there was a "moderate" chance the blood was the youngster's. There were also specks of blood said to be on the walls of the bedroom, but forensic results have been inconclusive.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

The bloody footprint is a myth started by one of the tabloids. It's not mentioned in any forensic report. Not as far as I know anyway.

A ref. link below for the bloody footprints found in the Mccanns holiday apartment 5a.

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by Daryl Dixon 28.10.14 8:52

There were plenty of footprints but no 'bloody' footprint. This is a myth. There may have been footprints tinged with red fingerprint powder but no footprints with blood residue.

by Snifferdog 28.10.14 9:47

Did you bother to follow and read the link I posted?

Here is an extract from the London Standard: -

Part of the report shown to this newspaper reveals that officers who examined the McCanns' apartment in Praia da Luz on the Algarve after Madeleine went missing on May 3 discovered a 'partial footwear mark', believed to be from a size 5 or 6 shoe, just outside the bedroom.
It adds that it 'appeared to have a blood imprint' that was visible to the naked eye.
The FSS results conclude that the footprint matched the pattern of a mark found above the rear bumper of the McCanns' Renault Scenic hire car – a print which Portuguese police apparently believe is consistent with someone lifting a body in or out of the boot.

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by Guest 28.10.14 9:52

Daryl Dixon wrote:
Joss wrote:Then there was this evidence also

Blood

There is also the evidence of a "partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom which had traces of blood in it visible to the naked eye, according to a forensics report.

Laboratory tests in Birmingham were inconclusive but found there was a "moderate" chance the blood was the youngster's. There were also specks of blood said to be on the walls of the bedroom, but forensic results have been inconclusive.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

The bloody footprint is a myth started by one of the tabloids. It's not mentioned in any forensic report. Not as far as I know anyway.

I have a feeling it is a myth that the bloody footprint is a myth.

If such a thing were found - and the Evening Standard has it's report still online to this day - it would be extremely important evidence as it is tangible in that it could be traced back to a specific pair of shoes.

A similar but opposite print from the same pair of shoes was found on the bumper of the scenic hired weeks later, the Standard report says. Who would own shoes the imprint of which could be found firstly in the apartment on the crucial night, and also on that hire car?

This evidence would be so critical I can imagine it being retained in the unreleased files.

Do you have evidence this is a myth, Daryl?

by HelenMeg 28.10.14 9:57

Snifferdog wrote:Did you bother to follow and read the link I posted?

Here is an extract from the London Standard: -

Part of the report shown to this newspaper reveals that officers who examined the McCanns' apartment in Praia da Luz on the Algarve after Madeleine went missing on May 3 discovered a 'partial footwear mark', believed to be from a size 5 or 6 shoe, just outside the bedroom.
It adds that it 'appeared to have a blood imprint' that was visible to the naked eye.
The FSS results conclude that the footprint matched the pattern of a mark found above the rear bumper of the McCanns' Renault Scenic hire car – a print which Portuguese police apparently believe is consistent with someone lifting a body in or out of the boot.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Interesting to see this report - I'd forotten about those footprints - thanks for producing the link.
Its always a good idea to go back to reports from 2007 - as the waters were less muddied then. We got clearer and less biased reporting.

by Daryl Dixon 28.10.14 11:21

The footprint on the McCanns Scenic was later found to belong to a GNR officer.

by HelenMeg 28.10.14 11:25

Daryl Dixon wrote:The footprint on the McCanns Scenic was later found to belong to a GNR officer.

Oh right - do you have a link to back up this statement? I'd like to read the report

by Guest 28.10.14 11:33

Daryl Dixon wrote:The footprint on the McCanns Scenic was later found to belong to a GNR officer.

Size 5 or 6? A female officer, presumably. Were there any on duty that night? And how did she plant her opposite foot on the Scenic after also being present on the night to leave the original bloody footprint?

Was it not 'a source close to... ' that made the GNR claim?

by Stillthinking 28.10.14 11:39

Okeydokey wrote:
maebee wrote:
Moon Goddess wrote:I do try to "keep the faith" and hate to bring negativity to the forum, but I find it all mind blowing... sometimes I genuinely believe there's some sort of f***ed up social experiment going on...

Anyway, praying that this 10 mill is being used to expose something far bigger than just what happened to Madeleine, because I don't believe for one second it would cost THAT amount of money to discover the truth there!

I feel that too MG. The facts of this case are blindingly obvious. Lesser brains (us) than Scotland Yard's finest have seen this from week one. Three and a half year's work from SY and 10 million pounds from the UK taxpayers and nothing to show. Incredible. If you or I were contracted to do a job and given €10 million to do it, we'd be expected to come up with a result a lot less sooner.

The Optimist in me is saying that SY are dotting the I's and crossing the T's but ........... if that's the case, hurry the f up. A three year old girl needs justice now. She's waited far too long.

I really can't accept as serious an SY inquiry that doesn't - as far as we know - begin with re-interview of all the Tapas 9 with far more testing questioning than we see in the rogatories.

Everything A. Redwood has said suggests that such interviews have not taken place.

Ignore even the fact that it's the Madeleine case. Imagine any missing person case where:

Dogs trained to alert to dead bodies and blood, alerted to items connected to a particular person and their residence at the time
When made a person of interest, that person refused to answer 48 questions
That person answered one question that confirmed they understood that by not answering other questions they could harm the search for the missing person
That person left the country swiftly afterwards

Now imagine a police force reinvestigating the disappearance and not reinterviewing that person.

So yes, could it be that all other avenues are being investigated before finally returning to this one?

by Snifferdog 28.10.14 11:43

Dee Coy wrote:
Daryl Dixon wrote:The footprint on the McCanns Scenic was later found to belong to a GNR officer.

Size 5 or 6? A female officer, presumably. Were there any on duty that night? And how did she plant her opposite foot on the Scenic?

Was it not 'a source close to... ' that made the GNR claim?

No Dee Coy, It was a Sauce. A Pink Sauce close to the GNR.

titter

by Guest 28.10.14 12:04

What sauce!

I have found the source of the sauce:

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"But a source close to the private detectives hired by the McCanns claims the samples - which are still being examined by the Forensic Science Service in Birmingham - are heavily contaminated and do not provide reliable evidence in the case.

One forensic officer was reported to have worked on the car even though the plastic gloves he was wearing to protect against contamination split.

Another claim used against the McCanns - the revelation that there was thought to be a bloodied footprint on the rear bumper of the hire car - turned out to be the footprint of an officer.The footprint was believed to match a similar print discovered in the McCann's apartment.

But the sample sent to Birmingham for tests was shown to match the shoe of a forensic investigator.

The source added: "It beggars belief how incompetently this investigation has been run."If it wasn't so serious it would be funny. It's no wonder it has taken so long for the results of forensic tests in the UK to come back"

It was a source close to PIs hired by the McCanns in 2007. So that's ok, then. titter

Good these dicks. They reckon the Scenic print was also bloody. Reliable sorts, obviously.

What Does Luminol Do?

What Does Luminol Do?

Understanding Bleach And Evidence

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