Re: "Digging" with a helicopter (continued from 'digging at resort')

by Guest 13.05.14 16:27

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
Which leads me to wonder ... did the airing of the boot occur before the McCanns were aware of the cadaver dogs? They probably thought at the time that just getting rid of the odour would be enough. Wrong!

Yes, I think it more likely that somebody, knowing that a body had been in the car, then tried to cover it up by dumping nappies, rotting meat etc. resulting in a smell so foul that it really did justify having to "air" the car for several days.

Perhaps the same person had already tried the same trick with the fridge in apartment 5J.

by **PeterMac** 13.05.14 16:34

roy rovers wrote:
It is one of the remarkable features of this case that none of the T9 have broken rank (as far as we know).

It becomes more like Lord of the Rings each time we look.

The Nine Tapas-Wraiths. Now mere shadows of their former selves

Three Rings for the Spokesmen under the sky,
Seven for the Press-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Tapas Men doomed to die,
One for Dark Lord Gerry on his dark throne
In the Land of Praia where the Shadows lie.
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
In the Land of Praia where the Shadows lie."

by RIPM 13.05.14 16:41

candyfloss wrote:
Cristobell wrote:
whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
roy rovers wrote:
It is one of the remarkable features of this case that none of the T9 have broken rank (as far as we know). What I'm saying is that just as there must be some secret that binds them together in the first place there must also be some knowledge that prevents any one of them breaking rank. I'm suggesting that they might know for a FACT that the body is hidden where it will NEVER be found so that as long as none of them speaks out there isn't going to be any external evidence in the form of a body. I'm making this point in the context of the helicopter search and proposed digs. I don't think they're going to find anything until someone in the T9 tells them exactly where to look. All IMO of course.

I don't see any reason for any of that group except one to even know where the body is buried, let alone know that it can never be found. See my earlier posts on this subject :)
The Tapas friends stayed on in PDL for 1 to 2 weeks after Maddie disappeared. I think David and Fiona were the last to leave. Therefore they had left Portugal before the McCanns hired the car, so it is doubtful any of them would know where the secondary burial site is.

One witness, Michael Wright, husband of Kate's cousin, and media monitor extraordinaire was insured to drive the scenic and he volunteered excuses for why there was a smell in the hire car. Gerry's sister Trisha and brother in law Sandy, stayed in Portugal for 3 months, so may also have been driving the scenic.

I don't think that is correct Cristobell, I may be wrong but they all returned on the day they were supposed to except for one couple, who may have been Fiona and David. Would need to check all this, and haven't time to do so now, but that is how I remember it. Perhaps someone has the info at hand or remembers.

Tanner O Brian Matt Oldfield Rachael Oldfield & Webster flew home on Thursday 17 May

David & Fiona Payne flew home on Tuesday 22 May

by whatliesbehindthesofa 13.05.14 16:47

PeterMac wrote:
Three Rings for the Spokesmen under the sky,
Seven for the Press-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Tapas Men doomed to die,
One for Dark Lord Gerry on his dark throne
In the Land of Praia where the Shadows lie.
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
In the Land of Praia where the Shadows lie."

Is Mitchell Saruman or Wormtongue? I can't decide :)

by Nina 13.05.14 16:52

RIPM wrote:
candyfloss wrote:
Cristobell wrote:
whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
roy rovers wrote:
It is one of the remarkable features of this case that none of the T9 have broken rank (as far as we know). What I'm saying is that just as there must be some secret that binds them together in the first place there must also be some knowledge that prevents any one of them breaking rank. I'm suggesting that they might know for a FACT that the body is hidden where it will NEVER be found so that as long as none of them speaks out there isn't going to be any external evidence in the form of a body. I'm making this point in the context of the helicopter search and proposed digs. I don't think they're going to find anything until someone in the T9 tells them exactly where to look. All IMO of course.

I don't see any reason for any of that group except one to even know where the body is buried, let alone know that it can never be found. See my earlier posts on this subject :)
The Tapas friends stayed on in PDL for 1 to 2 weeks after Maddie disappeared. I think David and Fiona were the last to leave. Therefore they had left Portugal before the McCanns hired the car, so it is doubtful any of them would know where the secondary burial site is.

One witness, Michael Wright, husband of Kate's cousin, and media monitor extraordinaire was insured to drive the scenic and he volunteered excuses for why there was a smell in the hire car. Gerry's sister Trisha and brother in law Sandy, stayed in Portugal for 3 months, so may also have been driving the scenic.

I don't think that is correct Cristobell, I may be wrong but they all returned on the day they were supposed to except for one couple, who may have been Fiona and David. Would need to check all this, and haven't time to do so now, but that is how I remember it. Perhaps someone has the info at hand or remembers.
Tanner O Brian Matt Oldfield Rachael Oldfield & Webster flew home on Thursday 17 May

David & Fiona Payne flew home on Tuesday 22 May

Interesting. Did they get special leave from work then?

by Guest 13.05.14 16:55

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
PeterMac wrote:
Three Rings for the Spokesmen under the sky,
Seven for the Press-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Tapas Men doomed to die,
One for Dark Lord Gerry on his dark throne
In the Land of Praia where the Shadows lie.
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
In the Land of Praia where the Shadows lie."

Is Mitchell Saruman or Wormtongue? I can't decide :)

"Digging" with a helicopter (continued from 'digging at resort') - Page 24 2Q==

“My Precious“, says Gollum through missing rotted teeth. His emaciated body is evidence of his life in Middle-England as a slave to the One pact.

by HelenMeg 13.05.14 17:09

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
Poe wrote:
With the smell in the hire car forcing the McCanns to leave the boot open to air and the number of swarthies, burglars, etc. etc. mooching round PdL, I'm surprised that no unscrupulous individual thought to steal the car and burn it out.

Which leads me to wonder ... did the airing of the boot occur before the McCanns were aware of the cadaver dogs? They probably thought at the time that just getting rid of the odour would be enough. Wrong!

What I find odd is John Geraughty then offering to have the car in his garage in order to run 'tests of their own'.
Why would someone do that unless he had a motive to cover up or protect his own self-interests?
What did the tests show (not that I believe they actually did any ?)

by Cristobell 13.05.14 17:29

candyfloss wrote:
Cristobell wrote:
whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
roy rovers wrote:
It is one of the remarkable features of this case that none of the T9 have broken rank (as far as we know). What I'm saying is that just as there must be some secret that binds them together in the first place there must also be some knowledge that prevents any one of them breaking rank. I'm suggesting that they might know for a FACT that the body is hidden where it will NEVER be found so that as long as none of them speaks out there isn't going to be any external evidence in the form of a body. I'm making this point in the context of the helicopter search and proposed digs. I don't think they're going to find anything until someone in the T9 tells them exactly where to look. All IMO of course.

I don't see any reason for any of that group except one to even know where the body is buried, let alone know that it can never be found. See my earlier posts on this subject :)
The Tapas friends stayed on in PDL for 1 to 2 weeks after Maddie disappeared. I think David and Fiona were the last to leave. Therefore they had left Portugal before the McCanns hired the car, so it is doubtful any of them would know where the secondary burial site is.

One witness, Michael Wright, husband of Kate's cousin, and media monitor extraordinaire was insured to drive the scenic and he volunteered excuses for why there was a smell in the hire car. Gerry's sister Trisha and brother in law Sandy, stayed in Portugal for 3 months, so may also have been driving the scenic.

I don't think that is correct Cristobell, I may be wrong but they all returned on the day they were supposed to except for one couple, who may have been Fiona and David. Would need to check all this, and haven't time to do so now, but that is how I remember it. Perhaps someone has the info at hand or remembers.

It is correct CF, Kate says so in her book - see pages 140-141. They were all there to 'celebrate' Madeleine's birthday on the 12th, in fact Warners lent the McCanns a villa for just that purpose. It appears the Tapas friends left on 16th May, apart from David and Fiona who stayed on until 'the following Tuesday'.

by Hicks 13.05.14 17:30

HelenMeg wrote:
whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
Poe wrote:
With the smell in the hire car forcing the McCanns to leave the boot open to air and the number of swarthies, burglars, etc. etc. mooching round PdL, I'm surprised that no unscrupulous individual thought to steal the car and burn it out.

Which leads me to wonder ... did the airing of the boot occur before the McCanns were aware of the cadaver dogs? They probably thought at the time that just getting rid of the odour would be enough. Wrong!
What I find odd is John Geraughty then offering to have the car in his garage in order to run 'tests of their own'.
Why would someone do that unless he had a motive to cover up or protect his own self-interests?
What did the tests show (not that I believe they actually did any ?)

John Geraghty is an construction millionaire from Leicester. It is reported that he is a good friend of the McCann's. IIRC he got them the keys to the church. Also odd, I remember reading that JG had a burglary at his villa, amongst other things taken a shower curtain was stolen. Was it the one found in the bag near Faro airport?

So the McCann's go to Praia Da Luz on holiday and they have a very good friend there, would they not visit this good friend during that week, before Madeleine went missing? If so we haven't heard about it.

I have often wondered if the make up photo was taken at JG villa.

There is a news clip with JG reading a paper on bench in the background, will have to look for that later.

by **Tony Bennett** 13.05.14 17:41

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
Which leads me to wonder...did the airing of the boot occur before the McCanns were aware of the cadaver dogs? They probably thought at the time that just getting rid of the odour would be enough. Wrong!

The open car boot was seen by a near neighbour of the villa where they were staying.

They moved to the villa on 2 July.

On 18 July, Kate said it was a 'turning point' when the investigation seriously started heading in the wrong direction.

On 23 July, Ricardo Paiva 'phoned them and 'did not sound like his usual self'. He said: 'Our investigation will be changing direction'.

On 2 August, the McCanns were planning to go to Huelva but could not because the police wanted to search the villa that day.

On 3 August, they did the Huelva trip.

On 5 & 6 August, Martin Grime's dogs searched the flat, villa and car.

On 8 August, the police returned the Renault Scenic to the McCanns 'albeit with a piece missing from the boot' ('madeleine', Kate McCann, p. 211).

It is suggested that British police may have tipped off the McCanns about the likely coming of the dogs about one week before Martin Grime came over (i.e. end of July).

In his witness statement, relative Michael Wright said he 'noticed an unpleasant smell' in the car on 'several' occasions.

by Guest 13.05.14 17:45

Cristobell wrote:
It is correct CF, Kate says so in her book - see pages 140-141. They were all there to 'celebrate' Madeleine's birthday on the 12th, in fact Warners lent the McCanns a villa for just that purpose. It appears the Tapas friends left on 16th May, apart from David and Fiona who stayed on until 'the following Tuesday'.

Ok thanks Cristobell, I stand corrected. I do have this memory of reading that they all flew back on due date, apart from one couple, I thought it was in one of the rogatories. I seem to remember a discussion on it - I may be going senile though. big grin

I will have a look sometime at the rogatories.

by Cristobell 13.05.14 17:51

Tony Bennett wrote:
whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
Which leads me to wonder...did the airing of the boot occur before the McCanns were aware of the cadaver dogs? They probably thought at the time that just getting rid of the odour would be enough. Wrong!
The open car boot was seen by a near neighbour of the villa where they were staying.

They moved to the villa on 2 July.

On 18 July, Kate said it was a 'turning point' when the investigation seriously started heading in the wrong direction.

On 23 July, Ricardo Paiva 'phoned them and 'did not sound like his usual self'. He said: 'Our investigation will be changing direction'.

On 2 August, the McCanns were planning to go to Huelva but could not because the police wanted to search the villa that day.

On 3 August, they did the Huelva trip.

On 5 & 6 August, Martin Grime's dogs searched the flat, villa and car.

On 8 August, the police returned the Renault Scenic to the McCanns 'albeit with a piece missing from the boot' ('madeleine', Kate McCann, p. 211).

It is suggested that British police may have tipped off the McCanns about the likely coming of the dogs about one week before Martin Grime came over (i.e. end of July).

In his witness statement, relative Michael Wright said he 'noticed an unpleasant smell' in the car on 'several' occasions.

Many thanks Tony, that clarifies things.

I think there were problems at the end of June that forced them to move quickly into their second (?) villa. That is, the Portuguese Tourist Board stopped paying for their accommodation and there had been a change in attitude. I am trying to find out what I can about this period of time.

I wonder if there is a statement from the neighbour who saw the boot open, or if that one was withheld?

by Cristobell 13.05.14 17:55

candyfloss wrote:
Cristobell wrote:
It is correct CF, Kate says so in her book - see pages 140-141. They were all there to 'celebrate' Madeleine's birthday on the 12th, in fact Warners lent the McCanns a villa for just that purpose. It appears the Tapas friends left on 16th May, apart from David and Fiona who stayed on until 'the following Tuesday'.

Ok thanks Cristobell, I stand corrected. I do have this memory of reading that they all flew back on due date, apart from one couple, I thought it was in one of the rogatories. I seem to remember a discussion on it - I may be going senile though. I will have a look sometime at the rogatories.

No probs CF smilie

Jane, Russell etc left on 17th and the Paynes the on 22nd - though according to Kate's book they did not see very much of them during the intervening time.

The McCanns however, were surrounded by the entire family entourage, reps from CEOP, lawyers, priests etc, etc and Gerry's sister and her husband managed to stay for an entire 3 months!

by aiyoyo 13.05.14 18:32

Tony Bennett wrote:
The open car boot was seen by a near neighbour of the villa where they were staying.

They moved to the villa on 2 July.

On 18 July, Kate said it was a 'turning point' when the investigation seriously started heading in the wrong direction.

On 23 July, Ricardo Paiva 'phoned them and 'did not sound like his usual self'. He said: 'Our investigation will be changing direction'.

On 2 August, the McCanns were planning to go to Huelva but could not because the police wanted to search the villa that day.

On 3 August, they did the Huelva trip.

On 5 & 6 August, Martin Grime's dogs searched the flat, villa and car.

31 July - dogs searched 5A - wardrobe, sofa, flowerbed marked
1 Aug - Jon Corner & Kate's parents arrived at Mccanns rented villa
2 Aug - Huelva trip cancelled due to Dogs search of villa on this day - clothing items and cuddle cat marked.
3 Aug - Went ahead with Huelva trip

On 8 August, the police returned the Renault Scenic to the McCanns 'albeit with a piece missing from the boot' ('madeleine', Kate McCann, p. 211).

It is suggested that British police may have tipped off the McCanns about the likely coming of the dogs about one week before Martin Grime came over (i.e. end of July). said he 'noticed an unpleasant smell' in the car on 'several' occasions.

by Rasputin 13.05.14 18:57

So if the car seats were " ripped out " to quote clarrie , the dogs may not have had the opportunity to search the original seats .. as they could have been completly replaced ?...obviously new ones would have had to be purchased... ?

by stillsloppingout 13.05.14 19:05

roy rovers wrote:
whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
roy rovers wrote:Any T9 pact of silence must be secured in the knowledge that unless one of them talks there will NEVER be a prosecution because they know for a FACT that the body is hidden where it will NEVER be found.

I don't see how that logically follows. Just because there is a pact of silence doesn't mean that the body is hidden where it will never be found.

It is one of the remarkable features of this case that none of the T9 have broken rank (as far as we know). What I'm saying is that just as there must be some secret that binds them together in the first place there must also be some knowledge that prevents any one of them breaking rank. I'm suggesting that they might know for a FACT that the body is hidden where it will NEVER be found so that as long as none of them speaks out there isn't going to be any external evidence in the form of a body. I'm making this point in the context of the helicopter search and proposed digs. I don't think they're going to find anything until someone in the T9 tells them exactly where to look. All IMO of course.

Because allegedly IMO they as Kate so eloquently stated " we are all into each other " when she made that statement she was clearly still strung out on whatever she was on [ most docs are users, from simple meds to smack ] the glue is the [ ALLEGED SWINGING ] and if that involves [ allegedly ] sharing there kids or not . pretty strong reasons to stay quiet .

Ask yourself .McCanns from leicestershire , the rest from all four corners of the UK . when did anybody ever go on holiday with people who you did not know by either family ties or work , they IMO were brought together by a common interest .
and IMO i have had it stated to me that they were swingers .i know of two famous couples ,one you would not believe that i know for sure .the McCanns they know just cant publish

by Doug D 13.05.14 19:12

There was talk recently about having to move out into a different villa, 'quite quickly because it had been rented out to holidaymakers', iirc.

Where does this fit into this timeline?

by Mirage 13.05.14 19:35

Doug D wrote:There was talk recently about having to move out into a different villa, 'quite quickly because it had been rented out to holidaymakers', iirc.

Where does this fit into this timeline?

Doug, I read recently that the owner got cold feet about the Mcs staying in his villa. I believe it was to do with forensics on 5a but at the moment I can't find a date that corroborates this. However, there seems to have been a rushed exit as evidenced by Gerry's blog, particularly the first version of the 30/06/2007 entry where the spelling is all over the place.

------------

Day 52 24/06/2007
If Madeleine is not found in the next couple of weks (sic) we need to move out of the

appartment (sic) we have been staying in as the family is coming out for a holiday. I have to say the owners have been extremely understanding, as they came to Praia da Luz for a holiday and relocated to another apartment to save us moving again.

This degree of flexibility does not exist in the resort in high season. We have managed to look at a few properties to rent in the last couple of days and I think we have found somewhere suitable to live until we return back to the UK with Madeleine.

Day 58 30/06/2007

2nd version
Family day spent with Sean, Amelie, our friends and their kids. Attended mass this evening which was conducted in English with prayers for Madeleine.

We have confirmed our new accommodation and will be moving in the next few days. We seem to have acquired a lot more stuff, partucularly the twins with lots of well wishers sending them toys. We will be staying on Portugal for the immediate future and are determined to come home with Madeleine.

Staying in the Algarve also makes it easier to stay in touch with the Portuguese polce, this is particularly important with the investigation being so active. We have regular meetings and calls to keep abreast of developments.

Day 58 - 30/06/2007 - Saturday

1st version
Family day spent with Sean, Amelie, our friends and their kids. Attended mass this evening which was conducted in English with prayers for Madeleine.

We have confirmed our new accommodation and will be moving in the next few days. We seem to have acquired a lot more stuff, partucularly the twins with lots of well wishers sending them toys, We will be staying on Portugsl for thr immrdiste future and are determined to come home with Madeleine.

Staying in the Algarve also makes it easier to stay in touch with the Portuguese polce, this is particularly important with the investigation being so active. We have regular meetings and calls to keep abreatst of developmennts.

by RIPM 13.05.14 19:37

stillsloppingout wrote:
Ask yourself .McCanns from leicestershire , the rest from all four corners of the UK . when did anybody ever go on holiday with people who you did not know by either family ties or work , they IMO were brought together by a common interest .
and IMO i have had it stated to me that they were swingers .i know of two famous couples ,one you would not believe that i know for sure .the McCanns they know just cant publish

More misinformation to fit a swinging theory.

The Macs live on the outskirts of Leicester as do the Payne's, about 10 miles apart.

Obrien and Oldfield are linked via worked related appointments and Leicester Hospital links. Webster is related to the Paynes.

You could always do some basic research.

This was the position in 2007 houses and hospitals have changed in certain cases since.

by Doug D 13.05.14 19:45

Thanks Mirage.

I agree the move from the second OC apartment to the villa was on 2/7, but there seemed to be a suggestion of another move from a villa to another villa at some stage, but this may just be misinformation.

by Watching 13.05.14 19:50

stillsloppingout wrote:
Ask yourself .McCanns from leicestershire , the rest from all four corners of the UK . when did anybody ever go on holiday with people who you did not know by either family ties or work , they IMO were brought together by a common interest .
and IMO i have had it stated to me that they were swingers .i know of two famous couples ,one you would not believe that i know for sure .the McCanns they know just cant publish

Well oldfield's didn't know Mr & Mrs and this sharing an apartment was for guests at wedding, an overnight or something, not a holiday.

http://l-azzeri-lies-in-the-sun.com/Just_Checking_-_1.html

'Oldfield Rogatory interview with Leicestershire Police:

4078 - "In relation to Gerry and Kate then, just to clarify what you have said. You met them at David and Fiona's wedding?"

Reply "Yeah".

4078 - "In two thousand and three in Italy. And you stayed, you shared an apartment with them then. Have you met them socially between then and now very often?"

Reply - I don't think we met them at all after the wedding, before, erm, before we left to go down to London. But I know Russ and Jane and Dave and Fiona would have been to sort of the birthday parties, erm, but more because they were Leicester based really. And we weren't, hadn't become sort of that close from that small visit in Italy".

4078 - "So the FIRST time you had SEEN them or HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH THEM really again was this holiday last May?"

Reply - "Yeah, I mean, we knew ABOUT them because Fiona, Dave and Fiona were sort of close friends with them and I think Fiona and Kate trained at some point (inaudible) training or knew each other in that way, so we'd HEAR about them, but it was, erm, Gerry and Kate and then Dave and Fi at this end and then Russ and Jane sort of sort of thing, it was like that".

So the Oldfield’s met the McCann couple briefly at a wedding in Italy, in 2003. They did not meet with them again until the holiday in Portugal in 2007. They really did not know this couple at all.

They had seen Madeleine as a baby of 4/5 months old in 2003, and had never seen or met Sean and Amelie McCann the twin children of Kate and Gerry McCann.'

by Justformaddie 13.05.14 19:52

Hi every1

Reading here for a long while now, what a brill forum to be part off! With the first words from kh being the f#####g b######s have taken her ( I think ) IMO that tells me she knew who was with her and why IMO. Could that be right? Maybe? sad

by whatliesbehindthesofa 13.05.14 19:54

Justformaddie wrote:Hi every1 Reading here for a long while now, what a brill forum to be part off! With the first words from kh being the f#####g b######s have taken her ( I think ) IMO that tells me she knew who was with her and why IMO. Could that be right? Maybe?

Welcome!

There is no mention from the Tapas bar staff in their statements of Kate returning to the Tapas shouting "They've taken her!", nor of her returning to the Tapas at all. She did say "They've taken her!" later on in the evening according to police statements, I'll have to look up exactly when she said this.

by Watching 13.05.14 20:02

why would oldfield the one who knew Mr & Mrs & family least, be one to go in 5A and check on their children?

by Justformaddie 13.05.14 20:04

Thank u wlbts, if that's what the 1st words were that would be very interesting IMO! Still trying to figure out this different type! Sorry, I'll get the hang of it soon!