Re: McCanns Hire Car Contract

by jd 11.02.13 16:19

southern_gal wrote:
Châtelaine wrote:I cannot really remember what happened with the car after the McCs gave it back to the rental company. Have some recollection that Gerarthy [?] stored it for a while ... Anyone?

Also: I've been looking at the car reservation sheets this morning [but remember where anymore - having a blonde or grey moment?] and what caught my eye was that every form was displayed in the original AND several copies in different colours. Now, isn't it usual that such a set of forms is split between the client and the company for proof and for administration. It's also strange that they bear NO signatures ...

Gerry and Kate left Portugal on the 9th of September but the car wasn't returned until the 23rd. I believe John Geraghty and John McCann were involved with the car after the 9th.

Yes John Geraghty the "friend" who also got the mccanns the 'keys to the church' offered to put the car in his garage, so the mccanns could conduct their own DNA tests. I don't think this ever happened though and Budget or Renault took it back to their yard

by jd 11.02.13 16:22

Ribisl wrote:The missing data is very interesting indeed. But even if the McCanns had the use of the vehicle during that period, it seems unlikely that cadaverine was transferred to its boots during that period. There is no record of the subsequent occupants complaining about any foul smell, though when the McCanns got it later it was supposed to smell so bad they had to leave the boot open all night. It must have been very noticeable for them to concoct all kinds of excuses including dirty nappies and rotten meat.

It could have been if you believe Maddie died before May 3rd. I was going to say that it would have been a real coincidence to get the same car back weeks later, but with the government protection the mccanns had anything is possible

by saltnpepper 11.02.13 16:27

jd wrote:
Ribisl wrote:The missing data is very interesting indeed. But even if the McCanns had the use of the vehicle during that period, it seems unlikely that cadaverine was transferred to its boots during that period. There is no record of the subsequent occupants complaining about any foul smell, though when the McCanns got it later it was supposed to smell so bad they had to leave the boot open all night. It must have been very noticeable for them to concoct all kinds of excuses including dirty nappies and rotten meat.

It could have been if you believe Maddie died before May 3rd. I was going to say that it would have been a real coincidence to get the same car back weeks later, but with the government protection the mccanns had anything is possible

The body could also of been stored(freezer)initially,if done within quick time after death there would be no smell,then later moved to a preferred resting place which was possibly delayed for a number of reasons,hence the odour reported by Michael Wright...a lot of ifs i grant you

by Guest 11.02.13 20:28

It's a very interesting thread and I spent most of yesterday catching up.

My drivers licence and passport have different addresses and when hiring a car I use the same address as my credit card because that's what they check for billing.

Where the date is a required field and there isn't one available at work we always put 01/01/YY so everyone knows it's not real. What would be very useful to know is who owns that passport ID. The puzzle for me is if anything goes wrong with billing or theft the passport should be the security to trace the person who hired the car so why would the hire company use passport info knowing it's incorrect? You would expect to find a copy of the passport in the hire file. Just wondering if they used their newly found fame to swing some favours and if someone rented the car on Gerry's behalf giving their own passport number and may not have known their new address.

Re the sequence numbers of the hire forms, I think they come in books. If this is so there would be a register of books assigned to reps/cashiers and the relevant sequence numbers.

I've lost credit cards and where a new one is issued it's linked to the same account so the history comes with it but it'll have a different number and expiry date.

by Ribisl 11.02.13 21:21

@Finn
I am puzzled by why everybody is talking about the address in a passport. I have a UK passport and it has no address except for the emergency contact details.

Wrt lost credit card, IF the person 'lost' his card on purpose in order to make its historical transaction record harder to trace, then he would probably apply for a new one rather than having a replacement card issued?

by Newintown 11.02.13 21:41

Finn wrote:It's a very interesting thread and I spent most of yesterday catching up.

My drivers licence and passport have different addresses and when hiring a car I use the same address as my credit card because that's what they check for billing.

Where the date is a required field and there isn't one available at work we always put 01/01/YY so everyone knows it's not real. What would be very useful to know is who owns that passport ID. The puzzle for me is if anything goes wrong with billing or theft the passport should be the security to trace the person who hired the car so why would the hire company use passport info knowing it's incorrect? You would expect to find a copy of the passport in the hire file. Just wondering if they used their newly found fame to swing some favours and if someone rented the car on Gerry's behalf giving their own passport number and may not have known their new address.

Re the sequence numbers of the hire forms, I think they come in books. If this is so there would be a register of books assigned to reps/cashiers and the relevant sequence numbers.

I've lost credit cards and where a new one is issued it's linked to the same account so the history comes with it but it'll have a different number and expiry date.

In the UK a debit card is linked to a bank account number but not a credit card.

by Willo 11.02.13 21:47

If I hired a car that stunk so bad that it had to be left unlocked with the back door open for several nights to help rid the smell, I'm sure I would have returned it for another. It seems that the car was used quite a lot going by the milage. Was it driven around with all the passengers holding their nose?

by Lady-Heather 11.02.13 22:06

jd wrote:
Ribisl wrote:The missing data is very interesting indeed. But even if the McCanns had the use of the vehicle during that period, it seems unlikely that cadaverine was transferred to its boots during that period. There is no record of the subsequent occupants complaining about any foul smell, though when the McCanns got it later it was supposed to smell so bad they had to leave the boot open all night. It must have been very noticeable for them to concoct all kinds of excuses including dirty nappies and rotten meat.

It could have been if you believe Maddie died before May 3rd. I was going to say that it would have been a real coincidence to get the same car back weeks later, but with the government protection the mccanns had anything is possible

How can it be that when GM last signed the rental agreement on 01/09/07 the mileage was said to be 5866km, yet when it was handed back by 'Geraghty' on 23/09/07 the mileage had increased to 14443km? Was it a mistake? or a mix-up with the car reg?

When Kenneth Walkden hired it on 25th March the mileage was recorded at 4099km, despite having been returned that same day by John Patterson having done only 823km. When Mr Walkden returned it on 01/04/07 it had done 4945km. The next hirer signed for it having done '945'km.

For a vehicle that played such a crucial role in the investigation, it sure was subject to a lot of cock-ups relating to record keeping. Or was it?

by Inspectorfrost 11.02.13 22:40

Unless I am going blind and can't read, according to this, the car did 2 miles between 3rd July and 1st September

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See graph on the bottom od that page which I presume is correct as it was compiled from all the individual car rental agreements

I thought they went to Huelva during that time and I thought Sandy Cameron was whizzing around in it all the time

Cockup, errors or whatever else, it's a mess

by lufc50337 11.02.13 22:53

jd wrote:
tigger wrote:Thanks, didn't know it was 7/1/07.

Add Murat - whom the PJ are sure was acquainted with Gerry, add four golf courses, Gerry having been in Portugal to play golf, add JT whose been to Portugal several times before and before 3/5/07 we have quite a lot of connections.

Picking up on the Golf courses. Golf was gerry mccanns biggest sporting passion, he's a member of Rothley Golf Club, he always played with Doug Skehan (ex director of No Stone Unturned Ltd), had a set of golf clubs stone from his car once

Paul Sedden can vouched for gerry mccanns love of Golf:

I also discovered that we shared an enthusiastic interest for golf and we spent a lot of time talking about this........In 1998 I carried out Kate and Gerrys wedding ceremony, again in Liverpool. At that time I already knew Kate and Gerry quite well and had played many golf matches with Gerry. I remember that they gave me a set of golf clubs from St Andrews as a present for carrying out the ceremony.
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To those who don't know St Andrews, this is one of the most famous & oldest historic golf courses in the world....how did gerry mccann managed to get a set of golf clubs from there!!!!!

So, going to the Algarve, to a place that is big & famous for its golf courses with many golfing holidays arranged to there, what sport does gerry mccann play.........Tennis!

A sport he doesn't seemed to have played either before or after the holiday. Its not as if he was busy, the kids were in creche all day, kate mccann was either running across hills or laying around the pool, and we are seriously meant to believe he never ever once played a round of his most beloved sport...Golf!!

I just don't buy it myself. A lot of the answers lie within 'Golf", even his best PDL pal john geraghty got a hole-in-one at Boavista golf course. Tennis was to distract away from Golf imo

Just to pick up on jd's point regarding Golf, I know a lot of golfers and I can't see an avid golfer going to the Algarve near a golf course and not playing at least 1 round

by Lady-Heather 11.02.13 23:15

Inspectorfrost wrote:Unless I am going blind and can't read, according to this, the car did 2 miles between 3rd July and 1st September

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See graph on the bottom od that page which I presume is correct as it was compiled from all the individual car rental agreements

I thought they went to Huelva during that time and I thought Sandy Cameron was whizzing around in it all the time

Cockup, errors or whatever else, it's a mess

You're not going blind IF. From the PJ Files:

"In the period from 1 to 31 July, the McCanns maintain a routine similar to the previous month. They continue to travel between Luz, Portimao, Faro airport, Lagos and other places.

Again they left our country: Gerald, the first exit, leaves on 12th, while Kate travels on 13th, but they both return at the same time. The second [exit], only Gerald leaving on 22nd and returns on 26th.

From 19th, the McCanns began to move with greater frequency to the triangular area of Sagres- Raposeira-Budens.

Still in this month occurs the return of Fiona, Rachael and Russel, on 10th. As already mentioned previously, the three were present in the confrontation with Robert Murat on 11th, leaving on 12th.

Between 1 and 31 August the McCanns did not receive any visit from friends with whom they had come to spend holidays. However, they continue to move between different locations in the Algarve.

On 3rd they spent the morning in Huelva, and on 21st and 28th they travelled to Lisbon. It is not known what could have done in Lisbon, on those two times. "

Witnesses spotted the McCanns in Huelva (in the Scenic) IIRC, so the Scenic must have been used for that trip. So why the mileage discrepancy?

by jd 12.02.13 0:05

sally66 wrote:Just to pick up on jd's point regarding Golf, I know a lot of golfers and I can't see an avid golfer going to the Algarve near a golf course and not playing at least 1 round

Boavista Golf course was only 5 mins away. And by another coincidence, the course has registered offices in the same area as smethurst in Alderley Edge, Cheshire (Emerson Developments (Holdings) Limited)

by lufc50337 12.02.13 10:48

jd wrote:
sally66 wrote:Just to pick up on jd's point regarding Golf, I know a lot of golfers and I can't see an avid golfer going to the Algarve near a golf course and not playing at least 1 round

Boavista Golf course was only 5 mins away. And by another coincidence, the course has registered offices in the same area as smethurst in Alderley Edge, Cheshire (Emerson Developments (Holdings) Limited)

Decent courses abroad are a Golfers dream, in my experience of Golfers even a periodic golfer would have wanted a round while on holiday with a decent course so near. Any of the avid Golfers I know would have been there every day so I find it strange that GM as an enthusiast wouldn't have had at least 1 round. I can't see KM stopping him either, IMO GM would have done what he wanted anyway.

There's so many coincidences in this case it's very hard to pin point the relevant one.

by **tigger** 12.02.13 14:17

The golf clubs and bag being too large to take along wouldn't wash either. Gerry's golf clubs were allegedly stolen from his car in Rothley. No doubt they were insured. If he gave the priest in Liverpool a gift of golfclubs from St. Andrews, no doubt his were of similar quality and price. I expect they were insured.
He would probably have had to hire them or borrow a set from the friends he played with before in PdL?

I saw this in a LP report with general information on GM. I'll try and find it. Sorry going further off topic.

by lufc50337 12.02.13 15:26

Yes tigger they usually take their own clubs if going on a 'golfing holiday' but just hire if going on holiday but hoping to get around or 2 in

Usually clubs in holiday resorts have pretty decent clubs to hire

by jd 12.02.13 16:17

I am sure in reality gerry mccann played a few rounds of golf, but in order to keep any attention away from Golf and Golf courses he's made out he never played a round and just played tennis all week long instead

Didn't GA & the PJ search a golf course?...Think it was Boavista where john geraghty is also a member of. I never did find out for sure, but I think also it was these cliffs (where the golf course sits on top) where kate mccann had her 'dream' of Maddie being buried there? Not sure

by Ribisl 12.02.13 16:31

I don't understand why so many people seem to have decided Gerry must have played golf during the week when Madeleine disappeared. You need time to play rounds of golf and it is therefore not compatible with a family holiday with very young children. That could be why Gerry was heard saying that he wasn't there to enjoy himself. It appears he had been to Portugal alone on golfing holidays before, which is what I expect a golfer to do. He is sporty and competitive therefore enjoys other sports too. So on this holiday he was playing tennis everyday, both with a trainer to improve his game and organising matches with friends and acquaintances. I see nothing strange about that at all.

by Smokeandmirrors 12.02.13 16:35

I think the whole holiday sounds strange. Loads of small kids under 4, bits of activities here and there, kids in and out of creches etc. Sounds like an absolute nightmare. Small children and all the junk you have to cart around, there were year old babies so you can't just feed them any old stuff. Bad enough travelling with one of your own but other peoples "hassle" and babies etc sounds unbearable! And I'm a mother!! big grin

by jd 12.02.13 16:35

Ribisl wrote:I don't understand why many people have decided Gerry must have played golf during the week when Madeleine disappeared. You need time to play rounds of golf and is therefore not compatible with a family holiday with very young children. That could be why Gerry was heard saying that he wasn't there to enjoy himself. It seems he had been to Portugal alone on golfing holidays before which is what I expect a golfer to do. He is sporty and competitive therefore enjoys other sports too. So on this holiday he was playing tennis everyday, both with a trainer to improve his game and organising matches with friends and acquaintances. I see nothing strange about that at all.

First of all all the kids were in creche all day (except lunch). he hardly spent time with his tapas friends during the day. kate mccann was either running, playing tennis or by the pool. He had lots of free time to himself. Golf was his passion and you can play half rounds (9 holes). There has never been any mention of gerry mccann playing tennis either before or after the holiday, the only sport he played was golf and he also enjoys going to watch football. All things considered I'd say its curious at the least that he never played Golf during this week

by jd 12.02.13 17:01

Picking up on the Gorrod's

They sold their London flat on 13th April 2006 to move to Exeter....so thats 3 of them using addresses they no longer live at!

by Inspectorfrost 12.02.13 21:57

Ribisl wrote:I don't understand why so many people seem to have decided Gerry must have played golf during the week when Madeleine disappeared. You need time to play rounds of golf and it is therefore not compatible with a family holiday with very young children. That could be why Gerry was heard saying that he wasn't there to enjoy himself. It appears he had been to Portugal alone on golfing holidays before, which is what I expect a golfer to do. He is sporty and competitive therefore enjoys other sports too. So on this holiday he was playing tennis everyday, both with a trainer to improve his game and organising matches with friends and acquaintances. I see nothing strange about that at all.

I tend to agree with this. Interesting interpretation of the I am not here to enjoy myself comment too, like the last couple times he had been to PT was just for that, onhis own with golfing mates. I know people who play golf and it normally is a three hour session at least. Gerry having all those tennis lessons and picking up the kids at lunchtimes and whatnots doesn't leave much time for swanning off for hours on end leaving his wife to do everything. Besides, I don't think I have ever read anywhere ever that he played golf, or was spotted playing golf,not even in a gossip element.

@ Ladyheather

Thank you for that quote about the movements. The car rental agreement info must be wrong. No one has a car for two months and doesn't clock up all the mileage they should have done let alone just two miles.

The other odd thing was that from the 1st September IIRC to when the car was returned on23rd September, seven thousand kilometres or so clocked up. The Mccanns left PT in the first week or so of September and left the car with Mr Geraghty.

Did the car get taken to the UK and back? For their own forensic tests?

ETA

1/9 5/12 or so thousand kms
23/9 14 plus thousand kms

by jd 12.02.13 22:07

Paul Sedden (16th April 2008)
I also discovered that we shared an enthusiastic interest for golf and we spent a lot of time talking about this

In 1998 I carried out Kate and Gerrys wedding ceremony, again in Liverpool. At that time I already knew Kate and Gerry quite well and had played many golf matches with Gerry. I remember that they gave me a set of golf clubs from St Andrews as a present for carrying out the ceremony.

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DOUG SKEHAN... a Director of The Madeleine Fund, appointed 16 May 2007. He is Gerry McCann's boss and golfing buddy
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Gerry McCann loved golf. Kate McCann was a working mom with dreams of a large family. Gerry McCann’s boss and golfing buddy, Dr. Doug Skehan, said their lives were picture perfect.
“One has to say they had everything you would want for,” he told CNN

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Gerry McCann grimaces on the golf course as the search for Madeleine goes backwards instead of forwards

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KATE'S DARKEST DAYS

Saturday January 5,2008
By Anna Pukas

....At least once a week, usually on a Monday, Gerry plays golf at Rothley Park Golf Club and then pops in for a pint at the Woodman’s Stroke pub in the village. He also takes the twins to the park. Occasionally on Sundays the whole family goes off to visit friends David and Fiona Payne eight miles away in Leicester.

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by Inspectorfrost 12.02.13 22:26

There is no doubt Gerry Mccann was a keen golfer,but from all those stories or any other stories there is no evidence or suggestion he played in PDL in April or May 2007

If there is, I must have missed it

Anyway, what does having an out of date driving licence have to do with playing golf?
What is the potential connection?
Give me something to run with please

by jd 12.02.13 23:06

Inspectorfrost wrote:There is no doubt Gerry Mccann was a keen golfer,but from all those stories or any other stories there is no evidence or suggestion he played in PDL in April or May 2007

If there is, I must have missed it

Anyway, what does having an out of date driving licence have to do with playing golf?
What is the potential connection?
Give me something to run with please

Do you actually read any of the posts on here? Read back on this topic (especially the last few on golf) and you will have all your answers

by Inspectorfrost 12.02.13 23:27

jd wrote:
Inspectorfrost wrote:There is no doubt Gerry Mccann was a keen golfer,but from all those stories or any other stories there is no evidence or suggestion he played in PDL in April or May 2007

If there is, I must have missed it

Anyway, what does having an out of date driving licence have to do with playing golf?
What is the potential connection?
Give me something to run with please

Do you actually read any of the posts on here? Read back on this topic (especially the last few on golf) and you will have all your answers

I have been reading but seen nothing to suggest Gerry was playing golf in PDL on that holiday, can you point me to where that is? i read MOST posts though admittedly not all

My apologies if I missed it

Still wonder what Gerry playing golf in the UK has any connection with him using an out of date driving licence or a potential second passport in Portugal

Im not trying to argue with you just asking what you are getting at and what evidence you have for it if thats ok goodnite jd keep digging you are always going to get to the other side as my hubby says keep drilling and you will get to the other side of the wall

I for one wont be googling gerry pdl golfing cos it does not exist and I have no idea why it would

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