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Post by HelenMeg 04.03.14 14:57

CynicAl wrote:I think there's a danger of hyperactive imagination running away with the story. With each new element of intriguing speculation we're also adding rafts of characters each with implausible levels of involvement, implausibly tenuous links to each other, and with each addition we make the PJ ever more stupid, and GA increasingly blind, to boot. 

The leaps of logic and wild assumptions are in danger of becoming misleading. 

When you attempt to create linkage to prior renters, you simply obfuscate the glaring facts. The McS rented (or had rented for them) a car, in which they made a number of inexplicable and suspicious journeys and at one stage in the rental the car turned up with a honking stench wafting from it which was so severe that extraordinary steps had to be taken to deal with it. The stench didn't turn up several weeks or months after carrying the stinky package, nor did the rental company and/or other renters simply have issues pegs on their noses. There is a direct relationship between the stench, the point in the rental that the stench occurred, the people in control of the car at the time, which renders absolutely every other prior connection to the car entirely irrelevent. 

If there's a gap in the rental record, maybe its because there's a gap in the rental demand, or due to a maintenance process. A master criminal using a car as a scene of crime would not return to the scene of crime to do anything but destroy the scene of crime, certainly would never release it to an openmarket and then hope to somehow get it back at a later date. And why would the rental firm entertain such an incriminating act in which the end result was anything other than the complete destruction of the car, covered fully by insurance? 

It may be tempting to imagine so many little links in the chain, each getting their few euros of bunga, but to weave a plot like that you'd have to be disastrously thick because you open yourself up to blackmail, whistleblowing, accidental leak, or a bout of better conscience. 

Similarly, i'll wager there are scores of golf clubs in the uk with links to PDL. I don't play and I don't play in the circles that can afford second homes in those places, but even I know people who frequent that area on golf trips. I know someone with an apartment in PDL. I've been offered a cheap holiday there in times past. His apartment is in the same luxury apartment development that appeared on one of the property tv shows - I think it was 'A Place In The Sun.' Similarly my local golf club has at least five members, all extremely well-heeledp semi-retired business men, who have homes within two miles of each other down somewhere between Murcia and Faro. That's the nature of wealth, friendships, fraternities, clubs and the business mindset. They share the number of a travel agent, of locals who can service various needs down there, of the local tips and tricks, of the realtor and the investment potential. It perpetuates itself organically. Introducers and arrangers are not uncommon. 

If there was a sniff of grand conspiracy, GA would be all over it. His silence on it would be inexplicable. 

The dogs remain the key.

So based on this, why did Kate and Gerry receive so much assistance. Did they really get lucky and get away with a crime for 7 years. Why were the PJ not allowed to 'investigate the parents'. Why did they get special support right from Day 1?  Sorry, but it is too ridiculous to believe that Kate and Gerry from Rothley managed to get away with a crime of covering up their daughter's death, hiding a body in a foreign country.
You might as well believe that the girl was abducted.
Of course they've had assistance and support from UK establishments, influential people. Or should I say, certain people have had high level support - not the Mc Canns as such - but the 'important guests' also present at OC on week commencing 28th April. Why was PE there ? Why did he jet off early on 4th May? Why did Kate and Gerry get assigned a media spokes person? It was a total cover up for the people 'that mattered'. Noone was bothered about Kate and Gerry - but the important guests had to ensure everything about that week was concealed. Its not a conspiracy theory - its based on fact. For all we know the hire car was deliberately thrown in to create more red herrings - the body was probably flown back to the UK or buried properly in 2007. However, the girl (IMO) died in Apartment and the dogs testified to that. The rest is a total coverup.
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Post by Guest 04.03.14 16:09

Mirage wrote:

tigger, your mentioning empty properties made me think of DW's rogatory and something she said that stuck in my mind.
------------

4078:  "If you could just begin by just describe, telling me where your apartment was in relation to the other apartments, just so that I can get a picture of it.”


Apartment 5J was the one with the stinky fridge. I still cannot find any reference to who owned it. Intriguingly, if you do a Google search on "Ocean Club 5J" you get an owners direct listing for a Waterside Gardens apartment, however there is no explicit reference in the listing to what apartment it actually is. The listing does say "This advertiser joined Owners Direct in January 2006,
and has advertised this property with us since January 2006."

I never knew that some of the apartments had private gardens.

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Post by Praia 04.03.14 17:21

Clay they are not gardens per se, more paved areas with various large plants and hedges. The apts on the bottom floor like 5A have these areas facing the pool and Tapas areas. They each have gates leading to steps up to the patio area and the sliding doors entering the apts. A walkway runs beside the wall surrounding the pool and Tapas area. Dr Amaral said they all used this shortcut into the apts except the Paynes who would have to continue around to the lift and stairs to the upper floors.

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Post by bobbin 04.03.14 17:32

Praia wrote:Clay they are not gardens per se, more paved areas with various large plants and hedges. The apts on the bottom floor like 5A have these areas facing the pool and Tapas areas. They each have gates leading to steps up to the patio area and the sliding doors entering the apts. A walkway runs beside the wall surrounding the pool and Tapas area. Dr Amaral said they all used this shortcut into the apts except the Paynes who would have to continue around to the lift and stairs to the upper floors.

Would that mean they were all leaving their patio doors unlocked and just 'pushed' to ?
I am sure Dr. Amaral would have been correct if that is what he said. He would have known it from somewhere. Idiotic behaviour if true, since they were supposedly told of burglaries.
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Post by Praia 04.03.14 17:41

Yes. They were probably over and back from the recreation area to the apt's during the day as well. There were toilets available beside the Tapas bar but some holiday makers if their apt is nearby and easily accessable will go back and forth to their apt's.

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Post by Mirage 04.03.14 18:12

Praia wrote:Yes. They were probably over and back from the recreation area to the apt's during the day as well. There were toilets available beside the Tapas bar but some holiday makers if their apt is nearby and easily accessable will go back and forth to their apt's.
Unlike JW who did the opposite!
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Post by Praia 04.03.14 18:24

Yes I have wondered about that, did he bring the pushchair in with him or leave it outside?  Something about JW and his wife and their statements makes me think they know alot more than they say.

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Post by kikoraton 04.03.14 18:31

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Don't disagree with anything said above. But here's the conundrum: the car listed on this docket is the famous McCann Scenic, 59-DA-27. And that's why Kenneth Walkden was selected by the PJ to receive a rogatory letter, requiring him to be interviewed (2008) about his holiday and his hire by an officer of Leics Constabulary. He is listed as the hirer of the car from 25 March to 1 April. The idea was to ask hirers if there had been a blood-accident in the car, or if they had transported a bleeding person or a cadaver.  
Now, leaving aside this docket, the PJ's own records for this car leave a blank period between those very dates. When another golfer, Paterson, had returned the car to Faro on 25 March, it had accumulated only 823km on the odometer. When a Mr Lowes hired it on 2 April, it had travelled only an extra 122km (945 on the odometer). And yet the km figure for Walkden, between those very dates, shows that he began his hire at 4099km, and ended it at 4945!
Surely the PJ are clever enough to have noted this discrepancy, before including Walkden in the list of those to be interviewed? And bear in mind that KW thought he had hired a dark blue Megane. What if he was quite right? What if it was a Megane that had 4099-4945 on the clock?
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Post by Mirage 04.03.14 18:43

Praia wrote:Yes I have wondered about that, did he bring the pushchair in with him or leave it outside?  Something about JW and his wife and their statements makes me think they know alot more than they say.
Especially when they got woken up at - was it 1am -  to be told the dreadful news, only to be further told that their help wasn't required in the search. Huh! Another useless couple sitting on the bed thinking about the awfulness of a little child lost in the dark and doing a fair bit of handwringing. Then BoD hits on the insalubrious idea of writing a godawful piece of shite entitled "My Months with Madeleine".

You or I would have been out the door in an instant. How could you not? The urge to help anyone in distress is very strong, let alone a defenceless child in mortal danger. The human brain is hard-wired to help people in extremis, and that is why people risk their lives to rescue others. Not this bunch, evidently. Which tells you a helluva lot.

I have often wondered about that pushchair too, Praia.
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Post by bobbin 04.03.14 18:45

Re-pasted from page 55 of this thread....

"Simon John Halder 11 km - 190km total 179km , from9/3 to 17/3

John Gray Paterson 190km - 823km total 633km, from 18/3 to 25/3

(Rog.file 5 p.55/56)

K.A. Walkden 4095km - 4945km total 945 km, from 25/3 to 01/4

(rog file 4, p. 23/24)

A.R. Lowes 945km - 2051km total 1106km, from 02/4 to 12/4
(Rog.file 5, p. 27/58)

John Brown 2051km - 2592km total 541km, from 8/5 to 15/5

(Rog. File 5. 61 -63 John Sands Brown friend of M. Wright)?

F.A. Vilela 2665km - 2869km total 204km, from 17/5 to 22/5

E. Mengistae 2903km - 3079km total 176 km, from 23/5 to 26/5
G.P McCann 3114 27/5 etc.

snipped

I wonder if the 'Walkden' figures are incorrectly typed up, somewhere or other.
4945 minus 4095 = 850 km, NOT, 945 km.


The sequence of numbers otherwise would be:
11-190 Halder
190-823 Paterson
823-945 Walkden ? = 122 km (over 7 days use = just over 17 km per day ? not very much)
945-2051 Lowes
2051-2592 Brown

time gap of 2 days, with added 73 km

2665-2869 Vilela

time gap of 1 day, with added 34 km

2903-3079 Mengistae
3114- McCann

If Walkden didn't hire this particular car, and perhaps he did have a blue one, WHO did use the car for the 122 kms that show as 'used' from 25th March to 1st April.

122 kms is the distance covered between the rentals of Paterson and Lowe.

Like the discrepancies in the creche records, the 'figures' for Walkden just do not tally.

ETA Mr Walkden seemed to think that the car he had hired had been BLUE but the McC one was silver....something not right here."

end paste

I'm glad you're back Kiko, and that document is very interesting.
I can't get my head round this at the moment, but it's just not tallying.
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Post by Praia 04.03.14 18:49

Hi Kiko, hope you are well, so do you think there were 2 cars hired???

The local gossip was that the Mc's had the use of various "acquaitances" cars that were never acknowledged, certainly the PJ were asking about Rachel driving outside Luz.

Something someone said earlier has made me think, we have wondered why Murat went to the tiny local car hire office on the Sat and made such a fuss about hiring a car immediately. If he was involved why draw attention to himself with people who knew him well so early on.
Supposing the car had been used earlier, perhaps Easter, and they wanted it back to check it had been thoroughly cleaned. A weak theory I know but his actions that day make no sense.

Remember Trish Cameron and husband arrived that day and she said a friend loaned them a car.

I am sure that the answer to what happened to Madeleine will involve a car or cars, I am sure at least some of them left the resort that week.

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Post by Guest 04.03.14 19:03

Praia wrote:Hi Kiko, hope you are well, so do you think there were 2 cars hired???

The local gossip was that the Mc's had the use of various "acquaitances" cars that were never acknowledged, certainly the PJ were asking about Rachel driving outside Luz.

Something someone said earlier has made me think, we have wondered why Murat went to the tiny local car hire office on the Sat and made such a fuss about hiring a car immediately. If he was involved why draw attention to himself with people who knew him well so early on.
Supposing the car had been used earlier, perhaps Easter, and they wanted it back to check it had been thoroughly cleaned. A weak theory I know but his actions that day make no sense.

Remember Trish Cameron and husband arrived that day and she said a friend loaned them a car.

I am sure that the answer to what happened to Madeleine will involve a car or cars, I am sure at least some of them left the resort that week.

It was me who raised the point about Murat. I checked after I posted and he didn't use Budget - however it would be interesting to know if these smaller local places are just subcontractors who source cars from bigger companies - "fronts" if you like, but without the sinister connotations.

Discrepancies in mileages could come from the car being delivered from drop off to pick up, or personal use by staff. Walkden's takes some accounting for though, but even if he did have a different car, he's still connected to Gerry via the golf club - so what are the chances of him being inadvertently linked to a car subsequently not only hired by Gerry, but then setting off the cadaver dogs?

Am I correct in saying that the fantastically named Enawgaw Mengistae, the last hirer immediately before GM, is also a doctor?
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Post by Praia 04.03.14 19:06

Yes Mirage, I have lived on a similar complex and have often thought about my reaction if we got that knock on the door in the middle of the night. I don't know any adult or teenager who would not immediately join the search as the Luz locals did. I am in very poor health but would still want to help in any practical way. So for me their story is bull!! We are suppose to believe a strapping TV producer of real life stories and his wife who worked on Crimewatch would roll over and go back to sleep.

The clincher for me on JW and BOD's strange behaviour is the ridiculous article she wrote where she made the police look like fools in not recognising a pic of the missing girl. Why write the article??? Well it certainly added to the "idiot Portuguese police" mix the UK papers helped by Clarrie were serving up.

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Post by Praia 04.03.14 19:11

Clay they are independent. Luz car hire would only have had a few new cars at that time of the season.

Doctors, Doctors everywhere.....

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Post by Praia 04.03.14 19:14

Sorry what I meant to say is if Murat needed a car for something dodgy why on earth go to the local small firm who knew him and make such a fuss??? Why not go to a large company eg at Faro airport for more privacy?

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Post by HelenMeg 04.03.14 19:58

kikoraton wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Don't disagree with anything said above. But here's the conundrum: the car listed on this docket is the famous McCann Scenic, 59-DA-27. And that's why Kenneth Walkden was selected by the PJ to receive a rogatory letter, requiring him to be interviewed (2008) about his holiday and his hire by an officer of Leics Constabulary. He is listed as the hirer of the car from 25 March to 1 April. The idea was to ask hirers if there had been a blood-accident in the car, or if they had transported a bleeding person or a cadaver.  
Now, leaving aside this docket, the PJ's own records for this car leave a blank period between those very dates. When another golfer, Paterson, had returned the car to Faro on 25 March, it had accumulated only 823km on the odometer. When a Mr Lowes hired it on 2 April, it had travelled only an extra 122km (945 on the odometer). And yet the km figure for Walkden, between those very dates, shows that he began his hire at 4099km, and ended it at 4945!
Surely the PJ are clever enough to have noted this discrepancy, before including Walkden in the list of those to be interviewed? And bear in mind that KW thought he had hired a dark blue Megane. What if he was quite right? What if it was a Megane that had 4099-4945 on the clock?
So basically, there is no known hirer of the car between 25th March and 1st April, if it is correct that KW had hired another, different car - a dark blue Megane.  This would mean someone at Budget Car Hire had
altered the records to create confusion, or simply wrote down Ken's mileage against the incorrect vehicle. Yes, I cant imagine the PJ ignoring such an inconsistency. But what does this imply?
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Post by Praia 04.03.14 20:21

Just checked, Murat used the Luz based Autorent 3 and hired a Hyundai Jetz. The Scenic was from Budget and the McCann's hired it in Lagos with Budget. Earlier drivers of the Scenic picked it up in Faro Airport and Praia da Rocha.
I wonder what happened to the Hyundai?

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Post by petunia 04.03.14 20:41

Praia.. how far would you say it was from Praia da luz? to Praia da Rocha? we stayed in Praia de Vou with our Grandson about 2 weeks after Maddie went misssing but it was very quite so we walked to Praia de Rocha every morning..
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Post by Praia 04.03.14 20:41

I am confused. I was looking again at the rental agreement for the Scenic, the customer is given as Zodiac car hire, GM is the driver, MW named driver. There is a UK address for Zodiac which on looking up seems to be part of Budget car hire. There is a voucher no which indicates a discount or a freebie.
Is it possible they did not pay for the Scenic and it's use was donated by a sympathetic firm?

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Post by Praia 04.03.14 20:44

Petunia by road roughly 25/30 min, depending on time and route, by coast considerably less.

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Post by kikoraton 04.03.14 20:46

3114- McCann wrote:
If Walkden didn't hire this particular car, and perhaps he did have a blue one, WHO did use the car for the 122 kms that show as 'used' from 25th March to 1st April.

Hello bobbin.
It's possible that the car was used by Budget to do some shuttling around Faro. The alternative would be that someone used it just for a short journey, although they kept it (and paid for it!) the whole week. Unlikely. And even if so, the Budget dockets should show who had it. Whereas we know that the only car we have a docket for is the Renault in KW's name and a ridiculous 4000km on the clock!

It doesn't make sense. Unless.......rubs chin, draws on pipe.
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Post by petunia 04.03.14 21:02

Thank you Praia..one morning while walking to Rocha with our Grandson in his pushchair we saw a chap with a black holdall i said morning to him but he completely ignored us,i said to my hubby he was a miserable git...it was probably just a local going about his business and i am letting my mind run away with me at the thought of Rocha only been 25/30 mins away.
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Post by TheTruthWillOut 05.03.14 22:49

Just to put this out there as a reason for the mileage discrepancy.

Could it simply be that the low KM figures are trip figures rather than odometer figures. Very easy to mix them up when quickly checked by the rental company when getting it turned around for the next customer.
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Post by kikoraton 07.03.14 14:37

[size=12.800000190734863]No, it can't be that. The km figures accumulate nicely. What is wrong, is the gap between 12 April and 8 May (I don't believe a brand-new car would be left idle - they have to earn their corn!) Plus the fact that Walkden's figures of 4099 - 4945 km for the same car, don't fit in anywhere[/size]
10.03.07New car!   11   17.03.07End:   190Trip  : 179
18.03.07190   25.03.07823633
25.03.07823   01.04.07945122
     
02.04.07945   12.04.0720511106

08.05.07
                 2051   15.05.072592541
17.05.07                2665   22.05.072869204
23.05.072869   26.05.073079210
27.05.07                3114
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Post by HelenMeg 07.03.14 15:09

udget car hire was established in 1958, the Budget Rent a Car brand is licenced within Europe, to Zodiac Europe Ltd (a subsidiary of Avis Europe Plc). Budget's global network now includes more than 3,400 locations, operating a wide range of cars, trucks and vans in 128 countries. They offer a range of fully inclusive rates, pre-payment options and charge facilities designed to keep you in control and help you save money. Thy are constantly renewing our fleet so you’ll be driving some of the very latest model vehicles all at low prices.
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