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18 people in the crime scene, immediately after an abductor was supposed to have taken Madeleine

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18 people in the crime scene, immediately after an abductor was supposed to have taken Madeleine Empty 18 people in the crime scene, immediately after an abductor was supposed to have taken Madeleine

Post by Tony Bennett on 27.12.09 16:39

It defies belief, but it appears that at least 18 people entered the crime scene within no more than a couple of hours of the alleged abduction of Madeleine.

Did none of the 'Tapas 9' ever think how important it might be not to contaminate a crime scene?

Of course, no forensic traces of an abductor were found, nowhere in the room, not on the bed, not on the window, not on ths shutters.

Here's my draft list of who was there, together with brief accompanying notes:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Two other events that evening took place:

1. The scream, heard I think before 10.00pm, by at least one witness

2. The removal of the twins from Apartment 5A. When did this occur?

My suggested sequence of events:

1. Kate McCann goes to Apartment 5A, some time before 10.00pm.

2. We know from one witness that Kate McCann is seen talking to another female on the balcony some time before 10.00pm. This is most likely to be Jane Tanner.

I suggest the scream takes place immediately before Kate McCann walks or rushes down to the Tapas bar.

Kate McCann then goes to the Tapas bar leaving Jane Tanner minding the twins.

So we have this possible sequence of people entering Apartment 5A:

1. Jane Tanner. At the apartment when the scream occurs and as Kate McCann raises the alarm. She moves out of 5A as Gerry and Kate return to the apartment.

2 & 3. Kate and Gerry McCann arrive first. They were there with ‘a female friend’ [I suggest Fiona Payne] when Amy Tierney arrived. Gerry McCann closed the shutters.

4 & 5. David and Fiona Payne. David Payne “didn’t actually enter too much into the room but I walked to the edge and you know there was, you know the twins were in their cots”- but Fiona says: “I think he was just mainly in the living room trying to put together what they should all be doing really, he was talking more to Gerry”. Fiona was there ‘with Kate and Gerry’ but ‘not immediately’. Fiona after entering the apartment was then with Kate in or near the apartment almost continuously for hours, until eventually they moved up to 5H.

6 & 7. Matthew Oldfield and Rachael Mampilly. Matthew Oldfield appears not to have gone sirect to the apartment in the first few minutes. Oldfield says: “If you ask me…I’m almost a hundred percent sure we didn’t go to the apartment” but later said: “I think we, at one stage, on one of the return visits, I did go into the apartment, just as far perhaps as the, erm, as the kitchen, and I could see them sat on the sofa, but they were in with the Police…that’s the only time I went back into the apartment”. Rachael Mampilly didn’t see the twins. Presumably they had been moved by the time she got there.

8. Dianne Webster. She stayed behind at the table for a few minutes and arrived some minutes later. She found Kate ‘in a state of shock’. Webster opened and closed shutters.

9. Russell O’Brien didn’t enter the apartment straightaway but immediately started searching. He went to the apartment later after the PJ arrived, there were PJ and GNR officers there when he arrived and others. Russell O’Brien wrote out the two timelines.

10. Amy Tierney was there. She saw the open shutters and windows, looked in the bedroom and the wardrobe (though Kate said she closed the window before dashing back to the Tapas bar.

11. Charlotte Pennington ‘sort of walked in’ and saw lots of people in the apartment but later said she searched only the patio area and didn’t enter the apartment.

12. Emma from Mark Warners came in.

13. Silvia Batista, Client Care Manageress from Mark Warners, came in. She says both shutters and windows were closed.

14, 15 & 16. GNR Officers - 3?

17 & 18. PJ Officers - 2 (’bald head’ and ‘baby face’ see Russell O’Brien statement).

ENDS
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Post by Slartibartfast on 27.12.09 16:50

@Tony Bennett wrote:It defies belief, but it appears that at least 18 people entered the crime scene within no more than a couple of hours of the alleged abduction of Madeleine.

Did none of the 'Tapas 9' ever think how important it might be not to contaminate a crime scene?

Of course, no forensic traces of an abductor were found, nowhere in the room, not on the bed, not on the window, not on ths shutters.

Here's my draft list of who was there, together with brief accompanying notes:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Two other events that evening took place:

1. The scream, heard I think before 10.00pm, by at least one witness

2. The removal of the twins from Apartment 5A. When did this occur?

My suggested sequence of events:

1. Kate McCann goes to Apartment 5A, some time before 10.00pm.

2. We know from one witness that Kate McCann is seen talking to another female on the balcony some time before 10.00pm. This is most likely to be Jane Tanner.

I suggest the scream takes place immediately before Kate McCann walks or rushes down to the Tapas bar.

Kate McCann then goes to the Tapas bar leaving Jane Tanner minding the twins.

So we have this possible sequence of people entering Apartment 5A:

1. Jane Tanner. At the apartment when the scream occurs and as Kate McCann raises the alarm. She moves out of 5A as Gerry and Kate return to the apartment.

2 & 3. Kate and Gerry McCann arrive first. They were there with ‘a female friend’ [I suggest Fiona Payne] when Amy Tierney arrived. Gerry McCann closed the shutters.

4 & 5. David and Fiona Payne. David Payne “didn’t actually enter too much into the room but I walked to the edge and you know there was, you know the twins were in their cots”- but Fiona says: “I think he was just mainly in the living room trying to put together what they should all be doing really, he was talking more to Gerry”. Fiona was there ‘with Kate and Gerry’ but ‘not immediately’. Fiona after entering the apartment was then with Kate in or near the apartment almost continuously for hours, until eventually they moved up to 5H.

6 & 7. Matthew Oldfield and Rachael Mampilly. Matthew Oldfield appears not to have gone sirect to the apartment in the first few minutes. Oldfield says: “If you ask me…I’m almost a hundred percent sure we didn’t go to the apartment” but later said: “I think we, at one stage, on one of the return visits, I did go into the apartment, just as far perhaps as the, erm, as the kitchen, and I could see them sat on the sofa, but they were in with the Police…that’s the only time I went back into the apartment”. Rachael Mampilly didn’t see the twins. Presumably they had been moved by the time she got there.

8. Dianne Webster. She stayed behind at the table for a few minutes and arrived some minutes later. She found Kate ‘in a state of shock’. Webster opened and closed shutters.

9. Russell O’Brien didn’t enter the apartment straightaway but immediately started searching. He went to the apartment later after the PJ arrived, there were PJ and GNR officers there when he arrived and others. Russell O’Brien wrote out the two timelines.

10. Amy Tierney was there. She saw the open shutters and windows, looked in the bedroom and the wardrobe (though Kate said she closed the window before dashing back to the Tapas bar.

11. Charlotte Pennington ‘sort of walked in’ and saw lots of people in the apartment but later said she searched only the patio area and didn’t enter the apartment.

12. Emma from Mark Warners came in.

13. Silvia Batista, Client Care Manageress from Mark Warners, came in. She says both shutters and windows were closed.

14, 15 & 16. GNR Officers - 3?

17 & 18. PJ Officers - 2 (’bald head’ and ‘baby face’ see Russell O’Brien statement).

ENDS

The question is why the GNR officers in attendance didn't close down the crime scene.

It was only isolated when the PJ arrived.
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18 people in the crime scene, immediately after an abductor was supposed to have taken Madeleine Empty These were intelligent doctors

Post by Tony Bennett on 27.12.09 16:57

@Slartibartfast wrote:The question is why the GNR officers in attendance didn't close down the crime scene. It was only isolated when the PJ arrived.
Conveniently sidestepping my question in the OP which was:

Did none of the 'Tapas 9' ever think how important it might be not to contaminate a crime scene?

Remember these were Doctors. Intelligent people.
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Post by Guest on 27.12.09 17:01

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@Slartibartfast wrote:The question is why the GNR officers in attendance didn't close down the crime scene. It was only isolated when the PJ arrived.
Conveniently sidestepping my question in the OP which was:

Did none of the 'Tapas 9' ever think how important it might be not to contaminate a crime scene?

Remember these were Doctors. Intelligent people.

Oh please mr bennett, over ruling all of that they were human beings in a panic, no-one would ever consider being judgemental about what people do in a panic, the clue is sort of there in the description. The police however are trained, objective and it is their job to maintain the crime scene, something that is not expected of the nearest and dearest. I wonder why they didn't bother this time? just another of the admittedly mistake riddled investigation sadly.

😢
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Post by Guest on 27.12.09 17:07

which GNR guy was it who got a roasting for spilling his FAG ASH all over the apartment?

which GNR guy was it whose fingerprints were all over the place?

which GNR guy is it who is under investigation because more than 100,000 euros appeared in his account?

Most rationally thinking people would think it would be the POLICE who would secure the scene, not the frantic parents and friends of a missing kid.


Oh and by the way, with regard to a person supposedly being intelligent because they are a doctor, isn't that what solicitors are supposed to be as well?
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Post by Slartibartfast on 27.12.09 17:10

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@Slartibartfast wrote:The question is why the GNR officers in attendance didn't close down the crime scene. It was only isolated when the PJ arrived.
Conveniently sidestepping my question in the OP which was:

Did none of the 'Tapas 9' ever think how important it might be not to contaminate a crime scene?

Remember these were Doctors. Intelligent people.

Goncalo Amaral wrote:The search and examination of the scene were carried out in difficult conditions: when they arrived, the police were met with a large number of people coming and going - family, friends, resort employees, including dogs and members of the National Guard.

And police officers and their dogs should know better.
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Post by Guest on 27.12.09 17:12

@Slartibartfast wrote:
@Tony Bennett wrote:
@Slartibartfast wrote:The question is why the GNR officers in attendance didn't close down the crime scene. It was only isolated when the PJ arrived.
Conveniently sidestepping my question in the OP which was:

Did none of the 'Tapas 9' ever think how important it might be not to contaminate a crime scene?

Remember these were Doctors. Intelligent people.

Goncalo Amaral wrote:The search and examination of the scene were carried out in difficult conditions: when they arrived, the police were met with a large number of people coming and going - family, friends, resort employees, including dogs and members of the National Guard.

And police officers and their dogs should know better.
Not the ones we've all heard about unfortunately. They made the Keystone Cops look like consumate professionals.
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Post by Guest on 27.12.09 18:19

@Tony Bennett wrote:It defies belief, but it appears that at least 18 people entered the crime scene within no more than a couple of hours of the alleged abduction of Madeleine.

Did none of the 'Tapas 9' ever think how important it might be not to contaminate a crime scene?

Of course, no forensic traces of an abductor were found, nowhere in the room, not on the bed, not on the window, not on ths shutters.

* Not identified blood in the apartment
* Not identified hair on Madeleine's bed
* Not identified fingerprints on the shutters

Btw...now where was the coordinator of the PJ investigation???
After dinner and booze he went home....to bed..

As for the doctors, intelligent people....as if they should know better.
At that moment they were nothing like that, they were just worried friends and parents of their missing child.
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Post by Guest on 27.12.09 19:40

Tony's question is right on the button. The police weren't called immediately, for obvious reasons, everyone was looking for Madeleine. The tapas lot, the parents, and everyone else who entered, must have been aware that it would contaminate any possible crime scene, especially GM and KM who seemed to beleive it was an abduction from the word go. THEY should have known better. Now when the police were called, the couldn't possibly spontaneously appear on the scene it would have taken a few minutes, how could it possibly be their fault, those people had already traipsed through the apartment contaminating it. The damage had already been done. You cannot blame the police for that!!
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Post by Slartibartfast on 27.12.09 20:14

candyfloss wrote:Tony's question is right on the button. The police weren't called immediately, for obvious reasons, everyone was looking for Madeleine. The tapas lot, the parents, and everyone else who entered, must have been aware that it would contaminate any possible crime scene, especially GM and KM who seemed to beleive it was an abduction from the word go. THEY should have known better. Now when the police were called, the couldn't possibly spontaneously appear on the scene it would have taken a few minutes, how could it possibly be their fault, those people had already traipsed through the apartment contaminating it. The damage had already been done. You cannot blame the police for that!!

Goncalo Amaral wrote:The search and examination of the scene were carried out in difficult conditions: when they arrived, the police were met with a large number of people coming and going - family, friends, resort employees, including dogs and members of the National Guard.

When the GNR themselves arrived they did nothing to preserve the scene as the former co-ordinator points out in the quote above.
It's not up to ordinary people in a state of pandamonium to secure crime scenes.
if the police themselves, whose job it most certainly is, did not secure the crime scene why do you expect others to do so?
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Post by Guest on 27.12.09 20:21

@Slartibartfast wrote:
candyfloss wrote:Tony's question is right on the button. The police weren't called immediately, for obvious reasons, everyone was looking for Madeleine. The tapas lot, the parents, and everyone else who entered, must have been aware that it would contaminate any possible crime scene, especially GM and KM who seemed to beleive it was an abduction from the word go. THEY should have known better. Now when the police were called, the couldn't possibly spontaneously appear on the scene it would have taken a few minutes, how could it possibly be their fault, those people had already traipsed through the apartment contaminating it. The damage had already been done. You cannot blame the police for that!!

Goncalo Amaral wrote:The search and examination of the scene were carried out in difficult conditions: when they arrived, the police were met with a large number of people coming and going - family, friends, resort employees, including dogs and members of the National Guard.

When the GNR themselves arrived they did nothing to preserve the scene as the former co-ordinator points out in the quote above.
It's not up to ordinary people in a state of pandamonium to secure crime scenes.
if the police themselves, whose job it most certainly is, did not secure the crime scene why do you expect others to do so?


Exactly the point. Family, friends and resort employees had already trampled through the apartment. The tapas lot, most doctors, well educated should have known better. IF there was any evidence left, it would have been contaminated by those people there first. Once the police arrived including the National Guard and the dogs it was too late anyway.
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Post by Guest on 27.12.09 20:28

candyfloss wrote:
@Slartibartfast wrote:
candyfloss wrote:Tony's question is right on the button. The police weren't called immediately, for obvious reasons, everyone was looking for Madeleine. The tapas lot, the parents, and everyone else who entered, must have been aware that it would contaminate any possible crime scene, especially GM and KM who seemed to beleive it was an abduction from the word go. THEY should have known better. Now when the police were called, the couldn't possibly spontaneously appear on the scene it would have taken a few minutes, how could it possibly be their fault, those people had already traipsed through the apartment contaminating it. The damage had already been done. You cannot blame the police for that!!

Goncalo Amaral wrote:The search and examination of the scene were carried out in difficult conditions: when they arrived, the police were met with a large number of people coming and going - family, friends, resort employees, including dogs and members of the National Guard.

When the GNR themselves arrived they did nothing to preserve the scene as the former co-ordinator points out in the quote above.
It's not up to ordinary people in a state of pandamonium to secure crime scenes.
if the police themselves, whose job it most certainly is, did not secure the crime scene why do you expect others to do so?


Exactly the point. Family, friends and resort employees had already trampled through the apartment. The tapas lot, most doctors, well educated should have known better. IF there was any evidence left, it would have been contaminated by those people there first. Once the police arrived including the National Guard and the dogs it was too late anyway.
I disasgree. Any police force worth its salt would have STILL cordoned it off. They didn't. One of them found the time to lounge about puffing on a fag fgs Hissyfit
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Post by baconbutty on 27.12.09 20:32

And of course the precedent for this is the Ramsey case, where seemingly half of Boulder, Colorado had traipsed through most of that big house before the police arrived, including family friends and even the local church minister.
Once again, this was allowed to happen by two supposedly intelligent parents --
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Post by MaryB on 27.12.09 20:34

Will we ever find out who was responsible for what happened to that child Jonbennet. hope I got the spelling right.
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Post by sunshine on 27.12.09 22:40

You must have read my mind baconbutty as I was going to say the same thing.I see a lot of similarities between the 2 cases not least the persecution of the parents.
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Post by DCB1 on 27.12.09 22:42

I watched a fascinating TV film about that case last night. The similarities are weird.
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Post by Bea_Reasonable on 27.12.09 22:45

@MaryB wrote:Will we ever find out who was responsible for what happened to that child Jonbennet. hope I got the spelling right.

No but her mother died not knowing, as hideous as that was, she also died under suspicion, worse, accused, another incompetent cop, mishandled investigation, another book.


We won't find out what happened because the officer in charge wasn't up to the job, just like Amaral.
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