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Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

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Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by Upsy Daisy on 30.03.14 11:57

Not sure if this has been covered before however a thought occurred to me.

On the night that Madeleine ' disappeared', upon hearing the commotion, did at any opportunity when Mrs Fenn stepped out onto her balcony did Gerry or Kate actually ask Mrs Fenn if Madeleine had gone upstairs to her apartment, after  potentially getting out of the 5a and was  upset/lost/confused, with Mrs Fenn possibly minding her until her parents came home (given the crying incident ?

Or, did they just not bother to check with the most obvious neighbour to see if Madeleine was there before screaming abduction so readily??

Why did they just send the ' plummy old lady' away with a flea in her ear without asking the obvious question first? Apologies for typos and dupos, on my teeny phone.  Upsy.

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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by PeterMac on 30.03.14 12:05

Short answer.
NO.

It is one of the most strange aspects of this case, and one which the McCanns have clearly forgotten to reverse-engineer, or back-fit
that they did not ask Mrs Fenn anything, such as
"Have you seen Madeleine ?"
"Did you hear anything"
"Did you see anything, or anyone"
Were you in this evening ?"


The fact that Kate merely swears at her perhaps tells a different story.
One in which Mrs Fenn might have seen or heard something the McCanns did not want her to have done ? ? ?

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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by Guest on 30.03.14 12:06

That would certainly be the most obvious course of action for anyone whose child had most likely wandered off - and it inevitably raises suspicions that the McCanns did not do so.
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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by PeterMac on 30.03.14 12:11

For me it is more than "Suspicion", It serves as "Confirmation"

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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by Bishop Brennan on 30.03.14 12:36

Especially as they went round to wake up Jez and ask him not long after. No swearing there. 

All very odd.  If your child goes missing, a nosey old neighbour (no offence meant) stationed at the curtains is exactly what you need.  She's your best chance of having seen someone, or heard anything suspicious. The mccann's behaviour could suggest that this was something that they feared rather than hoped...
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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by noddy100 on 30.03.14 12:40

I know considering she had heard her crying previously she would be the obvious person to ask if she had heard anything

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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by Guest on 30.03.14 12:42

The McCanns wouldn't have known then that a child's crying (whether Madeleine or not) had been heard by Mrs Fenn earlier.
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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by ultimaThule on 30.03.14 12:50

I seem to recall reading something to the effect that MW staff had gone in search of the McCanns and/or their pals in response to Mrs Fenn's report of a child crying, NFWTD, but this may be a myth.    

However, I find it difficult to believe that Mrs Fenn would have discussed calling the police with her friend over the phone that night without having first given consideration to making contact with Mark Warner's 24 hour reception service.

eta If the group were aware that Mrs Fenn was at home on the evening of 3 May 2007, it may explain why the shutters weren't jemmied or damaged in any way as she would have undoubtedly heard that noise too.
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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by Woofer on 30.03.14 13:07

@Bishop Brennan wrote:Especially as they went round to wake up Jez and ask him not long after. No swearing there. 

All very odd.  If your child goes missing, a nosey old neighbour (no offence meant) stationed at the curtains is exactly what you need.  She's your best chance of having seen someone, or heard anything suspicious. The mccann's behaviour could suggest that this was something that they feared rather than hoped...

In reality Jez would have been one of the first to visit  as Gerry knew Jez had been walking round the area at the relevant time, yet he wasn`t asked until 1 a.m. on the 4th.
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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by PeterMac on 30.03.14 13:35

@Woofer wrote:
In reality Jez would have been one of the first to visit  as Gerry knew Jez had been walking round the area at the relevant time, yet he wasn`t asked until 1 a.m. on the 4th.
I don;t think he was even 'asked'. I think he was merely 'told', and then told to stay indoors, go to bed and keep out of the way.

They clearly did not want the PJ to speak to him at that stage, or even to be aware of his existence,
as it would have blown the Tannerman sighting out of the water within the first two hours.

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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by Upsy Daisy on 30.03.14 14:02

Yes, it all screams ' guilt' on their part! Mrs Fenn was obviously kept at arms length when she could, had she been on her balcony, reading with no tv on etc, been the most crucial witness to an abduction.

Their attitude towards her was a definite give away!

Why go anywhere else in the first instance, whether they liked her or not (even that is a red flag in itself- perhaps she could have taken her for all they knew). They knew otherwise.....


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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by sharonl on 30.03.14 21:16

If Madeleine had disappeared before May 1st then Mrs Fenn could not have heard Madeleine crying on that night.

In her statement Mrs Fenn stipulates that the child that she heard was not a young child of 2 or under, but an older child.  She also claims that she chased off a burglar from her top floor apartment.

The statements of Mrs Fenn and her niece Carole Tranmer back up the McCanns testimonies that:


  1. Madeleine was alive on May 1st
  2. There were burglars in the area 
  3. There was a man acting suspiciously around the ground floor apartments


Why did Mrs Fenn claim that she called her friend, Edna Glyn late at night to tell her about the crying incident but a GNR officer claim that according to Robert Murat, it was he that took the call from Mrs Fenn?

Why did Mrs Fenn later deny that she had heard anything?

I think that this area needs to be researched in greater depth

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id331.html#fenn1

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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by Guest on 30.03.14 21:28

@sharonl wrote:If Madeleine had disappeared before May 1st then Mrs Fenn could not have heard Madeleine crying on that night.

In her statement Mrs Fenn stipulates that the child that she heard was not a young child of 2 or under, but an older child.  She also claims that she chased off a burglar from her top floor apartment.

The statements of Mrs Fenn and her niece Carole Tranmer back up the McCanns testimonies that:


  1. Madeleine was alive on May 1st
  2. There were burglars in the area 
  3. There was a man acting suspiciously around the ground floor apartments


Why did Mrs Fenn claim that she called her friend, Edna Glyn late at night to tell her about the crying incident but a GNR officer claim that according to Robert Murat, it was he that took the call from Mrs Fenn?

Why did Mrs Fenn later deny that she had heard anything?

I think that this area needs to be researched in greater depth

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id331.html#fenn1
Really I didn't know this. So can we conclude from this that Mrs Fenn and RM personally knew each other (I guess this is not impossible as they were both locals) or was RM a general contact for the OC for things of this nature. Yes I agree this is interesting.
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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by sharonl on 30.03.14 21:33

BlackCatBoogie wrote:
@sharonl wrote:If Madeleine had disappeared before May 1st then Mrs Fenn could not have heard Madeleine crying on that night.

In her statement Mrs Fenn stipulates that the child that she heard was not a young child of 2 or under, but an older child.  She also claims that she chased off a burglar from her top floor apartment.

The statements of Mrs Fenn and her niece Carole Tranmer back up the McCanns testimonies that:


  1. Madeleine was alive on May 1st
  2. There were burglars in the area 
  3. There was a man acting suspiciously around the ground floor apartments


Why did Mrs Fenn claim that she called her friend, Edna Glyn late at night to tell her about the crying incident but a GNR officer claim that according to Robert Murat, it was he that took the call from Mrs Fenn?

Why did Mrs Fenn later deny that she had heard anything?

I think that this area needs to be researched in greater depth

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id331.html#fenn1
Really I didn't know this. So can we conclude from this that Mrs Fenn and RM personally knew each other (I guess this is not impossible as they were both locals) or was RM a general contact for the OC for things of this nature. Yes I agree this is interesting.

Pamela Fenn and Jennifer Murat were said to be friends or at least acquaintances, something to do with them being on the committee of the local housing association, or at least something along those lines.

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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by Guest on 30.03.14 21:44

Thanks Sharonl - will also have a look at the link you gave
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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by Guest on 30.03.14 21:52

@ sharonl
I don't recall that a GNR officer said it was RM to take Mrs Fenn's call.
Do you have a source, please?
Neither can I recall that Mrs Fenn later denied that she heard anything.
Do you have a source, please?

@BlackCatBoogie

Of course, they must have known each other. Jenny Murat being the widow of an important real estate developer in PdL, her son being referred to as "the Dauphin of PdL", Mrs. Fenn being a permanent resident of PdL ...
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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by sharonl on 30.03.14 22:09

Châtelaine wrote:@ sharonl
I don't recall that a GNR officer said it was RM to take Mrs Fenn's call.
Do you have a source, please?
Neither can I recall that Mrs Fenn later denied that she heard anything.
Do you have a source, please?

@BlackCatBoogie

Of course, they must have known each other. Jenny Murat being the widow of an important real estate developer in PdL, her son being referred to as "the Dauphin of PdL", Mrs. Fenn being a permanent resident of PdL ...

Yes - one is a statement of a GNR officer, the other I think was a news report

It may take me a little while to locate these, but I will do.

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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by Guest on 30.03.14 22:38

Châtelaine wrote:@ sharonl
I don't recall that a GNR officer said it was RM to take Mrs Fenn's call.
Do you have a source, please?
Neither can I recall that Mrs Fenn later denied that she heard anything.
Do you have a source, please?

@BlackCatBoogie

Of course, they must have known each other. Jenny Murat being the widow of an important real estate developer in PdL, her son being referred to as "the Dauphin of PdL", Mrs. Fenn being a permanent resident of PdL ...
yes, I'm pretty sure that they must have known OF each other - or at least Mrs Fenn must have known of RM anyway, as you say, a fairly prominent local figure.  But interesting to hear that they were on such terms that Mrs Fenn felt able to (allegedly) telephone the Murat residence fairly late at night.  That I find quite interesting.
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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by worriedmum on 30.03.14 22:46

I will be interested to see these reports. I thought it sounded like RM was asked to respond to Mrs Fenn's telephone call to the police after Madeleine disappeared(because he is bilingual?) ,not that he was rung up at the time of the alleged crying.
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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by Okeydokey on 30.03.14 23:06

@Upsy Daisy wrote:Not sure if this has been covered before however a thought occurred to me.

On the night that Madeleine ' disappeared', upon hearing the commotion, did at any opportunity when Mrs Fenn stepped out onto her balcony did Gerry or Kate actually ask Mrs Fenn if Madeleine had gone upstairs to her apartment, after  potentially getting out of the 5a and was  upset/lost/confused, with Mrs Fenn possibly minding her until her parents came home (given the crying incident ?

Or, did they just not bother to check with the most obvious neighbour to see if Madeleine was there before screaming abduction so readily??

Why did they just send the ' plummy old lady' away with a flea in her ear without asking the obvious question first? Apologies for typos and dupos, on my teeny phone.  Upsy.


Extremely odd.  I think this might have been raised before, but it deserves a fresh airing, especially since there has been more focus on their immediate reaction. It seems quite amazing they didn't call on Mrs Fenn when searching and weren't keen to ask about what she might have seen or heard.

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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by Okeydokey on 30.03.14 23:08

@PeterMac wrote:Short answer.
NO.

It is one of the most strange aspects of this case, and one which the McCanns have clearly forgotten to reverse-engineer, or back-fit
that they did not ask Mrs Fenn anything, such as
"Have you seen Madeleine ?"
"Did you hear anything"
"Did you see anything, or anyone"
Were you in this evening ?"


The fact that Kate merely swears at her perhaps tells a different story.
One in which Mrs Fenn might have seen or heard something the McCanns did not want her to have done ? ? ?

I like it! - Reverse engineering defect!  Maybe she was one woman they most definitely didn't want to make enquiries of.

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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by Okeydokey on 30.03.14 23:09

@Bishop Brennan wrote:Especially as they went round to wake up Jez and ask him not long after. No swearing there. 

All very odd.  If your child goes missing, a nosey old neighbour (no offence meant) stationed at the curtains is exactly what you need.  She's your best chance of having seen someone, or heard anything suspicious. The mccann's behaviour could suggest that this was something that they feared rather than hoped...

Exactly.

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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by Okeydokey on 30.03.14 23:10

@PeterMac wrote:
@Woofer wrote:
In reality Jez would have been one of the first to visit  as Gerry knew Jez had been walking round the area at the relevant time, yet he wasn`t asked until 1 a.m. on the 4th.
I don;t think he was even 'asked'.  I think he was merely 'told', and then told to stay indoors, go to bed and keep out of the way.

They clearly did not want the PJ to speak to him at that stage, or even to be aware of his existence,
as it would have blown the Tannerman sighting out of the water within the first two hours.

That may have been the case but his partner BOD claimed he stayed because she was too scared to let him go.

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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by kimHager on 31.03.14 1:27

Ms. Fenn according to Kate was acting like a tin of beans hit someone on the head... GM supposedly said to her a child had gone missing... Perhaps the mccanns didn't want her knowing it was their child that night because she could have been a potential witness to whatever went on May 3rd before Kate raised the alarm... So he. Says a child which I'm sure he wanted to get her inside by suggesting an abductor was on the loose maybe thinking Ok she will think of something so get her gone from outside. I think if the PJ would have questioned her that night ( did they? I haven't saw confirmation that they did) she would have possibly had something to say. Kate goes on the defensive with her right away so maybe Ms. fenn had already spoken to her about the crying. If I was in her position I would have... Orth very least Someone tipped off Kate that Ms. Fenn spilled that can of beans about crying

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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by Upsy Daisy on 31.03.14 7:43

Was n't RM in theUK on the first or on his hasty way back to PDL ? This is sounding a bit more sinister, if she was potentially told to ' keep schtum
- see, hear nothing'.

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