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Did Mrs Fenn hear ' the sub ' crying on Tuesday night?

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Did Mrs Fenn hear ' the sub ' crying on Tuesday night?

Post by Guest on 13.04.12 14:41

The first topic I ever started. If we accept the possibility of a 'sub' - based on Kiko's research -there could be more to to speculate about.
I have always struggled with mrs Fenn [ I would have lost :-)] and the crying that stopped once someone entered 5a.
Suppose, just suppose, ( purporting now) it was the sub that was put to sleep in 5A and waking up panicked and started to scream for her daddy, lets call him daddy R.
She stopped when he entered to get her.
Does this sync?
What do you think?
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Re: Did Mrs Fenn hear ' the sub ' crying on Tuesday night?

Post by tigger on 13.04.12 15:10

parapono wrote:The first topic I ever started. If we accept the possibility of a 'sub' - based on Kiko's research -there could be more to to speculate about.
I have always struggled with mrs Fenn [ I would have lost :-)] and the crying that stopped once someone entered 5a.
Suppose, just suppose, ( purporting now) it was the sub that was put to sleep in 5A and waking up panicked and started to scream for her daddy, lets call him daddy R.
She stopped when he entered to get her.
Does this sync?
What do you think?
parapono

The crying episode was used as soon as the 6th May. By the McCanns. I only recently saw that. For me it means it was part of the props.
1) crying episode.
2) window/shutters impossible to negotiate for Maddie
Cuddle Cat and pink blanket - Maddie never goes anywhere without them
3) abductor seen by JT with alibi given by JW
4) abductor seen by Smiths with alibi given by Tapas 8.

A sub would not have spent time alone in 5a imo. Bad enough to have your arm twisted to let her be Maddie. Besides, whoever she was, if it was one of the T7's children, they didn't neglect them at all.
Phone activity and their lack of information on the 2nd makes me believe that was the intended date for the abduction. Something went wrong.
All mo of course...
It seems quite certain that it was the Tuesday night, Mrs. Fenn wasn't at home on Wednesday night, because they moved the crying to Wednesday, that too leads me to believe it was part of the proof of abduction.
Paedo's were on the agenda just as quickly.

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Re: Did Mrs Fenn hear ' the sub ' crying on Tuesday night?

Post by Guest on 13.04.12 15:35

Awe, done it wrong. And I cannot change that caption.
Tigger, thanks. The caption should have been: " Did mrs Fenn..... on tuesdaynight? ( first of May).
Ill try and find a friendly mod to correct my mistake.
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Re: Did Mrs Fenn hear ' the sub ' crying on Tuesday night?

Post by Guest on 13.04.12 15:36

parapono wrote:Awe, done it wrong. And I cannot change that caption.
Tigger, thanks. The caption should have been: " Did mrs Fenn..... on tuesdaynight? ( first of May).
Ill try and find a friendly mod to correct my mistake.
parapono

Done parapono thumbsup
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Re: Did Mrs Fenn hear ' the sub ' crying on Tuesday night?

Post by stumo on 13.04.12 16:04

@tigger wrote: Phone activity and their lack of information on the 2nd makes me believe that was the intended date for the abduction. Something went wrong. .

So do you think that was when Maddie could have been injured (the cause of the blood and later the cadaver scent)?
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Re: Did Mrs Fenn hear ' the sub ' crying on Tuesday night?

Post by tigger on 13.04.12 16:20

@stumo wrote:
@tigger wrote: Phone activity and their lack of information on the 2nd makes me believe that was the intended date for the abduction. Something went wrong. .

So do you think that was when Maddie could have been injured (the cause of the blood and later the cadaver scent)?

No, I think that was the date intended for the faked abduction. I think she was injured very early on in the holiday and the body was gone well before the evening of the 3rd.

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Did mrs Fenn hear 'the sub' crying on Tuesday night?

Post by Guest on 13.04.12 17:38

candyfloss, thnx
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Did mrs Fenn...

Post by Guest on 13.04.12 18:07

tigger Suppose that our 'sub' girl was called Madalene, and together with her dad was staying in a privately rented appartement.
Her best friendly Elisabeth Naylor was staying in another OC appartement.
No arm twisting would be needed to walk with dad to the creche, picking up Elisabeth at the Naylors, and Uncle Gerry walking along because both had to shop afterwards.
( It was for free) and Elisabeth was going as well.
Fun!
Just purporting, all opinion. I am doing the next step. Dad was away late on Tuesdaynight, he called uncle Gerry who said the sub could sleep in Kates bed, to be picked up by Dad on his return.
Just thinking.
Still nothing amiss, or?

What do you think, possible?

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Re: Did Mrs Fenn hear ' the sub ' crying on Tuesday night?

Post by Kololi on 13.04.12 19:36

aaagh aaagh aaagh
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Re: Did Mrs Fenn hear ' the sub ' crying on Tuesday night?

Post by tuom on 13.04.12 19:50

@tigger wrote:
@stumo wrote:
@tigger wrote: Phone activity and their lack of information on the 2nd makes me believe that was the intended date for the abduction. Something went wrong. .

So do you think that was when Maddie could have been injured (the cause of the blood and later the cadaver scent)?

No, I think that was the date intended for the faked abduction. I think she was injured very early on in the holiday and the body was gone well before the evening of the 3rd.



I am really stuck on this crying episode , a child crying for that amount of time is obviously in incredible distress , in my experience if a child falls back to sleep after that lenght of distress they have what I only know as "the tulks" = sort of crying in their sleep , if KG had checked her when they returned it would have been very obvious that a child had been crying badly earlier ,



As for the mention of MMC asking why they did not come when she cried , I really wonder why they made this public , imo if it were me I would not have said it I would have been too alarmed and ashamed that my child was alone and crying for , which makes me feel that they used that to fit in with the "abductor" sussing out the night or nights before all imo only
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Re: Did Mrs Fenn hear ' the sub ' crying on Tuesday night?

Post by Kololi on 13.04.12 19:55

Tuom my memory may be failing me and if so I am sure somebody who remembers will correct me but I seem to recall it was leaked out first and then they admitted it publicly in response.
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Re: Did Mrs Fenn hear ' the sub ' crying on Tuesday night?

Post by tigger on 13.04.12 20:10

parapono wrote:tigger Suppose that our 'sub' girl was called Madalene, and together with her dad was staying in a privately rented appartement.
Her best friendly Elisabeth Naylor was staying in another OC appartement.
No arm twisting would be needed to walk with dad to the creche, picking up Elisabeth at the Naylors, and Uncle Gerry walking along because both had to shop afterwards.
( It was for free) and Elisabeth was going as well.
Fun!
Just purporting, all opinion. I am doing the next step. Dad was away late on Tuesdaynight, he called uncle Gerry who said the sub could sleep in Kates bed, to be picked up by Dad on his return.
Just thinking.
Still nothing amiss, or?

What do you think, possible?

parapono

I'm just not happy with any child being alone, least of all the sub. The neglect was all make believe so why should the sub be alone in a strange apartment?
It's very likely that all the children slept in one apartment and she could have joined them until her father came to collect her.

Kate was highly likely in the apartment - her phone was triggered six times in succession. Almost immediately after the last phone call finished, the crying began.
It stopped the moment Mrs. Fenn heard the parents come back. Usually children cry on for a bit when they've been that upset.
So: why did the McCanns mention it to the police on the 6th? (have to check for the ref. )
Why did Kate mention it to Fiona that evening in the Tapas?
Why make yourself even worse parents by leaving a child for so long? Means they didn't check for 1.5 hours at least!
I'm just thinking it was proof that Maddie was alive at that time, just as the only two reported conversations with Maddie are on the 3rd, morning and evening, only witnesses, the parents.
So basically all signs of life of Maddie are clustered around that date. Even though it's weird to run a recording of a crying child, it's possible.



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Re: Did Mrs Fenn hear ' the sub ' crying on Tuesday night?

Post by tuom on 13.04.12 20:16

@Kololi wrote:Tuom my memory may be failing me and if so I am sure somebody who remembers will correct me but I seem to recall it was leaked out first and then they admitted it publicly in response.



Oh yes I think you are right , did KMC mention it to one of the Tapas maybe JT , I will poke around and have a look TY
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Re: Did Mrs Fenn hear ' the sub ' crying on Tuesday night?

Post by tigger on 13.04.12 21:56

From Dr. Roberts' 'A crying shame'


Had Madeleine been crying on the Wednesday night she would undoubtedly have been heard by Rachael Oldfield nearby, just as certainly as infant crying from 5A was heard by Mrs Fenn, resident in the apartment above, on the Tuesday night. And those episodes of retelling in hindsight? They took place at the dinner table on Thursday night, i.e. before Madeleine's absence had been noted. That is not hindsight at all, but foresight, the all-important observation being made to friends first, the police afterwards (by both parents on 4 May, Gerry again on 10 May, Kate once more on 6 September and Gerry on the 7th).

We see this particular chink widening further, with the uncovering of a witness statement by Leicestershire Police Officer Stephen Markley, made on 25 April, 2008, in relation to his activities as family communication officer while working in Portugal with the McCanns. The key aspect (for present purposes) of his statement is as follows:

"However, in relation to the above, I would like to add the following: At about 20.00 on Saturday 5th May 2007, I arrived at the apartment where Kate and Gerry were staying, with other officers. During the meeting Gerald and Kate had a number of questions to which they wanted follow up and responses from the PJ.

"One of these questions was that they wanted the PJ to be aware of was Madeleine's revelation about Wednesday night, when she said that she was left alone during the night. She told Kate and Gerry that she remembered the twins crying and that she wanted to know why neither her mother nor her father had gone to the room to see what was happening."
unquote
See McCannfiles.com for the rest. (this is the first version, in the next it is Sean and Maddie crying and I think there's the last one where she cried on her own - I've had it with these .....! )
I'm convinced now that it was contrived. What if the last one is because by that time Mrs. Fenn's statement was known to them?

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Re: Did Mrs Fenn hear ' the sub ' crying on Tuesday night?

Post by Genbug on 13.04.12 22:07

Tigger wrote:

It stopped the moment Mrs. Fenn heard the parents come back. Usually children cry on for a bit when they've been that upset.

I agree tigger, a child that has been crying that long wouldn't suddenly just stop. Also, was it the parents that came back when the crying stopped? Mrs Fenn only assumed it was, she didn't see them. From her statement:

At about 23.45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse.

When questioned, she said that she did not know the cause of the crying, perhaps a nightmare or another destabilising factor. As soon as the parents entered the child stopped crying.


So Mrs Fenn heard the patio doors open but didn't see anyone. It could have been anyone entering really. Or leaving. I think it's important that we don't neccesarily believe that it was the parents arriving back home. She could only have assumed that.

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Re: Did Mrs Fenn hear ' the sub ' crying on Tuesday night?

Post by Nina on 13.04.12 22:17

@Genbug wrote:Tigger wrote:

It stopped the moment Mrs. Fenn heard the parents come back. Usually children cry on for a bit when they've been that upset.

I agree tigger, a child that has been crying that long wouldn't suddenly just stop. Also, was it the parents that came back when the crying stopped? Mrs Fenn only assumed it was, she didn't see them. From her statement:

At about 23.45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse.

When questioned, she said that she did not know the cause of the crying, perhaps a nightmare or another destabilising factor. As soon as the parents entered the child stopped crying.


So Mrs Fenn heard the patio doors open but didn't see anyone. It could have been anyone entering really. Or leaving. I think it's important that we don't neccesarily believe that it was the parents arriving back home. She could only have assumed that.
Hi Genbug, I agree if her recollection of the crying is correct we must not assume that the sound of a door sliding open was someone/anyone arriving or leaving. It was just a sound of a sliding door and then silence. Nothing.
A child who cries to the extent in this statement would not stop and be silent. The would wind down, they would gasp, in Yorkshire we call it kinking, a pathetic heart rending sound of a youngster either falling asleep through utter exhaustion or a child being comforted and settling down. They do not just stop. So this utter instant silence has a reason imo.

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Re: Did Mrs Fenn hear ' the sub ' crying on Tuesday night?

Post by tuom on 13.04.12 22:28

@Nina wrote:
@Genbug wrote:Tigger wrote:

It stopped the moment Mrs. Fenn heard the parents come back. Usually children cry on for a bit when they've been that upset.

I agree tigger, a child that has been crying that long wouldn't suddenly just stop. Also, was it the parents that came back when the crying stopped? Mrs Fenn only assumed it was, she didn't see them. From her statement:

At about 23.45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse.

When questioned, she said that she did not know the cause of the crying, perhaps a nightmare or another destabilising factor. As soon as the parents entered the child stopped crying.


So Mrs Fenn heard the patio doors open but didn't see anyone. It could have been anyone entering really. Or leaving. I think it's important that we don't neccesarily believe that it was the parents arriving back home. She could only have assumed that.
Hi Genbug, I agree if her recollection of the crying is correct we must not assume that the sound of a door sliding open was someone/anyone arriving or leaving. It was just a sound of a sliding door and then silence. Nothing.
A child who cries to the extent in this statement would not stop and be silent. The would wind down, they would gasp, in Yorkshire we call it kinking, a pathetic heart rending sound of a youngster either falling asleep through utter exhaustion or a child being comforted and settling down. They do not just stop. So this utter instant silence has a reason imo.



Agree fully in Ireland or at least according to my Mother "kinking" is known as" the tulks" and it quite distressing and as you say "heart rending"
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Re: Did Mrs Fenn hear ' the sub ' crying on Tuesday night?

Post by PeterMac on 13.04.12 23:03

@Nina wrote:
At about 23.45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse.
When questioned, she said that she did not know the cause of the crying, perhaps a nightmare or another destabilising factor. As soon as the parents entered the child stopped crying.

So Mrs Fenn heard the patio doors open but didn't see anyone. Snipped.

For me this is a crucial one. The late Mrs Fenn heard them enter through the Patio doors.
A distinctive sound, totally different from a front door. A sort of "whoosh". ( to coin a phrase !)
In their first statements to the PJ they stated, under the rules of evidence which are "that they are liable to prosecution if they have said anything in the statement they know to be false or do not believe to be true " that they came in through the front door using the key.
(I know this was the alleged previous night, but it is evidence that the patio doors were routinely left open)

From the very first, the PJ knew they were lying, and had documentary evidence of that fact.
C-R, please note. Your clients LIED.
Right from the very first thing the McCanns said to the PJ, they knew, (and I put it in italics so that you can believe it, just as it is in the 'very truthful' book, thus "they knew" that they were being told LIES by the very people who should have been pouring the hearts out to them.
The only questions that remained were - Why? What? Who? How? When? Where?
Or to up the tone of the forum at this late hour- ,
Quis, quid, cur, quomodo, ubi, quando, quibus auxiliis.
Who, what, why, how, where, when, with what ?

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Re: Did Mrs Fenn hear ' the sub ' crying on Tuesday night?

Post by Nina on 13.04.12 23:10

@PeterMac wrote:
@Nina wrote:
At about 23.45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse.
When questioned, she said that she did not know the cause of the crying, perhaps a nightmare or another destabilising factor. As soon as the parents entered the child stopped crying.

So Mrs Fenn heard the patio doors open but didn't see anyone. Snipped.

For me this is a crucial one. The late Mrs Fenn heard them enter through the Patio doors.
A distinctive sound, totally different from a front door. A sort of "whoosh". ( to coin a phrase !)
In their first statements to the PJ they stated, under the rules of evidence which are "that they are liable to prosecution if they have said anything in the statement they know to be false or do not believe to be true " that they came in through the front door using the key.

From the very first, the PJ knew they were lying, and had documentary evidence of that fact.
C-R, please note. Your clients LIED.
Right from the very first thing the McCanns said to the PJ, they knew, (and I put it in italics so that you can believe it, just as it is in the 'very truthful' book, thus "they knew" that they were being told LIES by the very people who should have been pouring the hearts out to them.
The only questions that remained were - Why? What? Who? How? When? Where?
Or to up the tone of the forum at this late hour- ,
Quis, quid, cur, quomodo, ubi, quando, quibus auxiliis.
Who, what, why, how, where, when, with what ?
Mre Fenn, God bless her, heard the patio door whoosh, as you say. She didn't say she heard the bottom gate or the baby gate open or open and close, she heard the patio door whoosh and she assumed it was being opened and the parents had come home and the crying stopped. As quick as a door opens then are we to accept that the crying stopped and not another sound is mentioned. No mumbling of comfort, no conversation between the parents, no kinking as we have tried to explain. Not another thing is mentioned.

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Re: Did Mrs Fenn hear ' the sub ' crying on Tuesday night?

Post by joyce1938 on 14.04.12 11:13

I have read somewhere that when km was told about the long crying episode,she said mad. was not alone all that night,so she could not have cried that long,not sure where ti find that ,but she sure said words to that effect ,joyce1938
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Re: Did Mrs Fenn hear ' the sub ' crying on Tuesday night?

Post by PeterMac on 14.04.12 11:27

@Nina wrote:=
Mre Fenn, God bless her, heard the patio door whoosh, as you say. She didn't say she heard the bottom gate or the baby gate open or open and close, she heard the patio door whoosh and she assumed it was being opened and the parents had come home and the crying stopped. As quick as a door opens then are we to accept that the crying stopped and not another sound is mentioned. No mumbling of comfort, no conversation between the parents, no kinking as we have tried to explain. Not another thing is mentioned.
Another ghastly thought has just occurred to me.
The patio door "whooshed open" and Maddie stopped crying.
Perhaps someone LEFT !
Sorry about the images this will conjure up.

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Re: Did Mrs Fenn hear ' the sub ' crying on Tuesday night?

Post by Nina on 14.04.12 11:30

@PeterMac wrote:
@Nina wrote:=
Mre Fenn, God bless her, heard the patio door whoosh, as you say. She didn't say she heard the bottom gate or the baby gate open or open and close, she heard the patio door whoosh and she assumed it was being opened and the parents had come home and the crying stopped. As quick as a door opens then are we to accept that the crying stopped and not another sound is mentioned. No mumbling of comfort, no conversation between the parents, no kinking as we have tried to explain. Not another thing is mentioned.
Another ghastly thought has just occurred to me.
The patio door "whooshed open" and Maddie stopped crying.
Perhaps someone LEFT !
Sorry about the images this will conjure up.
Hence the silence after the whooshing door.

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Re: Did Mrs Fenn hear ' the sub ' crying on Tuesday night?

Post by aiyoyo on 14.04.12 13:08

@PeterMac wrote:
@Nina wrote:=
Mre Fenn, God bless her, heard the patio door whoosh, as you say. She didn't say she heard the bottom gate or the baby gate open or open and close, she heard the patio door whoosh and she assumed it was being opened and the parents had come home and the crying stopped. As quick as a door opens then are we to accept that the crying stopped and not another sound is mentioned. No mumbling of comfort, no conversation between the parents, no kinking as we have tried to explain. Not another thing is mentioned.
Another ghastly thought has just occurred to me.
The patio door "whooshed open" and Maddie stopped crying.
Perhaps someone LEFT !
Sorry about the images this will conjure up.

If someone left (with or without Maddie) why would Maddie suddenly stop crying?
It's not possible to stop a crying child instantaneously. In fact, if anything the crying would appear louder if she was taken outside.

Didnt her niece report someone leaving also by the patio door. Probably not on the same night (as otherwise she would also have heard the crying) but it could mean the patio door was never locked.



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Re: Did Mrs Fenn hear ' the sub ' crying on Tuesday night?

Post by stumo on 14.04.12 13:45

Perhaps Mrs Fenn saying the crying stopped was a figure of speech? Perhaps it carried on (the tulks etc) but was subdued, to the point of not being intrusive?
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Re: Did Mrs Fenn hear ' the sub ' crying on Tuesday night?

Post by tigger on 14.04.12 14:36

@Nina wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:
@Nina wrote:
At about 23.45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse.
When questioned, she said that she did not know the cause of the crying, perhaps a nightmare or another destabilising factor. As soon as the parents entered the child stopped crying.

So Mrs Fenn heard the patio doors open but didn't see anyone. Snipped.

For me this is a crucial one. The late Mrs Fenn heard them enter through the Patio doors.
A distinctive sound, totally different from a front door. A sort of "whoosh". ( to coin a phrase !)
In their first statements to the PJ they stated, under the rules of evidence which are "that they are liable to prosecution if they have said anything in the statement they know to be false or do not believe to be true " that they came in through the front door using the key.



From the very first, the PJ knew they were lying, and had documentary evidence of that fact.
C-R, please note. Your clients LIED.
Right from the very first thing the McCanns said to the PJ, they knew, (and I put it in italics so that you can believe it, just as it is in the 'very truthful' book, thus "they knew" that they were being told LIES by the very people who should have been pouring the hearts out to them.
The only questions that remained were - Why? What? Who? How? When? Where?
Or to up the tone of the forum at this late hour- ,
Quis, quid, cur, quomodo, ubi, quando, quibus auxiliis.
Who, what, why, how, where, when, with what ?
Mre Fenn, God bless her, heard the patio door whoosh, as you say. She didn't say she heard the bottom gate or the baby gate open or open and close, she heard the patio door whoosh and she assumed it was being opened and the parents had come home and the crying stopped. As quick as a door opens then are we to accept that the crying stopped and not another sound is mentioned. No mumbling of comfort, no conversation between the parents, no kinking as we have tried to explain. Not another thing is mentioned.

Neither the bottom gate nor the baby gate was heard by mrs. Fenn. Only the patio doors. Which makes one think that both those gates were open and therefore even more unlikely that Madeleine was inside . Clear escape route.
As Dr. Roberts says, the crying episode was foresight used before 10.00 pm. Stuffed down the PJ's throat as early as possibly in varying forms.
The idea that a paedo would have already been in 5a whilst Gerry was there can only have been dreamt up post 5/5/07. By then the crying could be attributed to Maddie as the target of the paedo.
I'm sure for myself that it was part of the staging.

What really beats me is why they couldn't have thought of a more convincing scenario. Why not have her abducted from the beach? Why not disguise yourself (CCTV isn't that fantastic) and take her out of a supermarket, wherever. You could get yourself any number of alibis from your mates.
For a paedophile too, much easier to take a child from a playground, anywhere but the impossible situation we are asked to believe.
Must read up on the similarities with JonBenet Ramsey, sure that was the template?



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tigger

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