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Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by palm tree on 29.08.14 10:08

I can see what you mean Bluebag, but would AM have been old enough to understand? Just trying to see if she would cry for 90mins calling Maddie, would km not have taken the child away from the situation where I think she would've stopped crying or at least calmed down rather than get worse? Out of sight, out of mind works for little ones. I think Tuesday is when things started to go wrong, but I still think it was Maddie crying for her daddy.
IMO
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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by jeanmonroe on 29.08.14 11:05

@palm tree wrote:I can see what you mean Bluebag, but would AM have been old enough to understand? Just trying to see if she would cry for 90mins calling Maddie, would km not have taken the child away from the situation where I think she would've stopped crying or at least calmed down rather than get worse? Out of sight, out of mind works for little ones. I think Tuesday is when things started to go wrong, but I still think it was Maddie crying for her daddy.
IMO
.......................................................................................................
I think Tuesday is when things started to go wrong,
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
An aerobic instructor from the resort entertains the dinner guests at Tapas with a ‘Quiz’. At 9.30 p.m. the game ends, and Gerry invites her to their table, where she stays for half an hour.



Tuesday night was big tits quiz night!

Can't see a 'problem' with our K being upset by G 'inviting' Najova over to his table, can you? winkwink


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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by BlueBag on 29.08.14 11:12

@palm tree wrote:I can see what you mean Bluebag, but would AM have been old enough to understand? Just trying to see if she would cry for 90mins calling Maddie, would km not have taken the child away from the situation where I think she would've stopped crying or at least calmed down rather than get worse? Out of sight, out of mind works for little ones. I think Tuesday is when things started to go wrong, but I still think it was Maddie crying for her daddy.
IMO

What a witness says and the reality are two different things - witness statements are personal interpretation of events full of mental/verbal shortcuts and assumptions.

(Anyone interested in the JFK case would know about the witness statements to the killing of Officer Tippet).

I don't think "Daddy" (or Maddy) was repeated for 90 mins.

Anyway, it's food for thought.
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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by BlueBag on 29.08.14 11:15

@jeanmonroe wrote:
@palm tree wrote:I can see what you mean Bluebag, but would AM have been old enough to understand? Just trying to see if she would cry for 90mins calling Maddie, would km not have taken the child away from the situation where I think she would've stopped crying or at least calmed down rather than get worse? Out of sight, out of mind works for little ones. I think Tuesday is when things started to go wrong, but I still think it was Maddie crying for her daddy.
IMO
.......................................................................................................
I think Tuesday is when things started to go wrong,
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
An aerobic instructor from the resort entertains the dinner guests at Tapas with a ‘Quiz’. At 9.30 p.m. the game ends, and Gerry invites her to their table, where she stays for half an hour.



Tuesday night was big tits quiz night!

Can't see a 'problem' with our K being upset by G 'inviting' Najova over to his table, can you?  winkwink


Wasn't Kate's flurry of texts and phone calls just after this event (and whilst someone was crying for 75 minutes in 5A)?

Tuesday night - ask Gerry.
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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by palm tree on 29.08.14 11:23

@BlueBag wrote:
@palm tree wrote:I can see what you mean Bluebag, but would AM have been old enough to understand? Just trying to see if she would cry for 90mins calling Maddie, would km not have taken the child away from the situation where I think she would've stopped crying or at least calmed down rather than get worse? Out of sight, out of mind works for little ones. I think Tuesday is when things started to go wrong, but I still think it was Maddie crying for her daddy.
IMO

What a witness says and the reality are two different things - witness statements are personal interpretation of events full of mental/verbal shortcuts and assumptions.

(Anyone interested in the JFK case would know about the witness statements to the killing of Officer Tippet).

I don't think "Daddy" (or Maddy) was repeated for 90 mins.

Anyway, it's food for thought.
It's hard to imagine a child crying for 90mins when a parent is there. I remember awhile back watching that video where gm slips up, actually I'm Justformaddie, and remember us realising that slip up? Km said the crying was Wednesday night, but Mrs Fenn said Tuesday? Gm made a mistake by saying AM crying the Tuesday night, I need to make sence of this, do you know where NFWTDs dark room is? I think I need to lay down in a darkened room too!
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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by palm tree on 29.08.14 11:25

@jeanmonroe wrote:
@palm tree wrote:I can see what you mean Bluebag, but would AM have been old enough to understand? Just trying to see if she would cry for 90mins calling Maddie, would km not have taken the child away from the situation where I think she would've stopped crying or at least calmed down rather than get worse? Out of sight, out of mind works for little ones. I think Tuesday is when things started to go wrong, but I still think it was Maddie crying for her daddy.
IMO
.......................................................................................................
I think Tuesday is when things started to go wrong,
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
An aerobic instructor from the resort entertains the dinner guests at Tapas with a ‘Quiz’. At 9.30 p.m. the game ends, and Gerry invites her to their table, where she stays for half an hour.



Tuesday night was big tits quiz night!

Can't see a 'problem' with our K being upset by G 'inviting' Najova over to his table, can you?  winkwink

Brilliant jeanmonroe, just what I needed! Mrs
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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by BlueBag on 29.08.14 11:26

"It's hard to imagine a child crying for 90mins when a parent is there."



Who said she was there?

She might have been, she might not.

We haven't been told the truth about Tuesday.

That's what OG should be asking.
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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by Nina on 29.08.14 11:40

What evening/night was it that Gerry left the table without Kate, left earlier than Kate, and I wonder where he went. Kate commented on it. I am sorry unable to search as my lap top is running on fresh air at the moment, my monthly quota for the Internet already used up.

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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by worriedmum on 29.08.14 11:49

@Nina wrote:What evening/night was it that Gerry left the table without Kate, left earlier than Kate, and I wonder where he went. Kate commented on it. I am sorry unable to search as my lap top is running on fresh air at the moment, my monthly quota for the Internet already used up.
Is this the night ? Although there seems some confusion between Kate and Gerry as to which night was which.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=WLvnfcl-Zkg#t=754
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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by palm tree on 29.08.14 11:55

@BlueBag wrote:
"It's hard to imagine a child crying for 90mins when a parent is there."



Who said she was there?

She might have been, she might not.

We haven't been told the truth about Tuesday.

That's what OG should be asking.
Sorry Bluebag, meant to add, if she wasn't there, that's harder to swallow, forgive me.
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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by Nina on 29.08.14 12:03

@worriedmum wrote:
@Nina wrote:What evening/night was it that Gerry left the table without Kate, left earlier than Kate, and I wonder where he went. Kate commented on it. I am sorry unable to search as my lap top is running on fresh air at the moment, my monthly quota for the Internet already used up.
Is this the night ? Although there seems some confusion between Kate and Gerry as to which night was which.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=WLvnfcl-Zkg#t=754

Thank you worriedmum, cannot view, too much buffering, but maybe other members can make some sense from it. roses

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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by palm tree on 29.08.14 13:29

Rewatching it, according to km Wednesday night was the only night they stayed out until 11:50, and both agree Madeleine cried that night. Gm says Tuesday night AM cried, but on Wednesday night it was mm and sm? Km clearly let's him know am crying on Tuesday night was something he wasn't to mention IMO. So, was it Tuesday or Wednesday night that gm walked off and left her? I wonder what she says in her book about these nights?
I'd always thought Tuesday night was the night gm walked off? 
IMO

Just checked, but I didn't find anything about any girl being invited to the table, and Wednesday night was the night gm walked off. Have to check again, I know I read of it somewhere.
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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by j.rob on 30.08.14 15:06

@palm tree wrote:
@jeanmonroe wrote:
@palm tree wrote:I can see what you mean Bluebag, but would AM have been old enough to understand? Just trying to see if she would cry for 90mins calling Maddie, would km not have taken the child away from the situation where I think she would've stopped crying or at least calmed down rather than get worse? Out of sight, out of mind works for little ones. I think Tuesday is when things started to go wrong, but I still think it was Maddie crying for her daddy.
IMO
.......................................................................................................
I think Tuesday is when things started to go wrong,
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
An aerobic instructor from the resort entertains the dinner guests at Tapas with a ‘Quiz’. At 9.30 p.m. the game ends, and Gerry invites her to their table, where she stays for half an hour.



Tuesday night was big tits quiz night!

Can't see a 'problem' with our K being upset by G 'inviting' Najova over to his table, can you?  winkwink

Brilliant jeanmonroe, just what I needed! Mrs

Najoua Chekaya hosted a quiz night two nights a week at the Tapas Restaurant - Sunday and Tuesday. Sentences in blue below snipped from her witness statement. Can't really see any merit in disputing whether or not she did this. (Obviously, what affect, if any, this had on the Mc relationship is another matter). There are umpteen witnesses to this including staff who would know exactly who was doing what each day of the week at Ocean Club and the Quiz Night would be on record as happening at the OC that week. There would also be other guests (and staff would be present serving drinks etc) who had taken part in the Quiz Night and may well have remembered the events of the evening well (especially if there was a little bit of a domestic going on.....everyone loves a bit of domestic drama). And don't forget - TM went to the Tapas restaurant on Sunday night, when it is on record that Ms Chekaya hosted a quiz night at 9pm. I doubt that Ms Chekaya went completely unobserved by any of the (imo rather 'alpha male' type) male Tapas members. So it may well be that a few feathers have already been ruffled by Ms Chekaya on Sunday evening.

And, given that it is on record that Gerry invited Ms Chekaya to join his table on Tuesday, I don't think it is too much of a stretch to imagine that there might have been some eye-brow raising and sniggering going on among TM members at the table. 


"She was recruited to give aerobic classes, however she was also asked to carry out a Quiz (game) twice a week (Tuesdays and Sundays) in the Ocean Club Tapas restaurant.


She remembers that last Tuesday at the end of the quiz, she was invited to the table of nine guests who asked her to join them for a drink.

She was at their table for about fifteen to twenty minutes and it was there that she met Madeleine's father, who directly invited her to the table, however, she does not know whether Madeleines mother was also there.

When questioned, she said that they talked of banalities and she did not notice any aspect or behaviour that was out of the ordinary.
When questioned, she said that during the time that she was there Madeleine's father did not leave the table, neither did any of the other guests, however, during this time one of the chairs was always empty, that of someone who had had dinner and left, not managing to indicate any identifying element about this person.

When questioned, she said she was at the table from about 21.30 to 21.50."





http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/NAJOUA_CHEKAYA.htm


From McCann apartment neighbour Pamela Fenn's witness statement: 

"She states that on the day of the 1st May 2007, when she was at home alone, at approximately 22H30 she heard a child cry, and that due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger.

Apart from the crying that continued for approximately one hour and fifteen minutes, and which got louder and more expressive, the child shouted "Daddy, Daddy", the witness had no doubt that the noise came from the floor below. At about 23H45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse.

When questioned, she said that she did not know the cause of the crying, perhaps a nightmare or another destabilising factor.

As soon as the parents entered the child stopped crying.

That night she contacted a friend called XXXX XXXX, who also lives in Praia da Luz, after 23H00, telling her about the situation, who was not surprised at the childs crying."



While Mrs Fenn is no longer in this earthly world, there is an independent witness to confirm that Mrs Fenn was worried enough about hearing a child crying in an increasingly distressed fashion to phone her at 11pm. Which is quite late at night. Had Mrs Fenn not done this, it would be easier to dispute the time/date even whether Mrs Fenn heard what she thought she heard. Would be good to hear an account of this telephone conversation. But whoever Mrs Fenn spoke to would surely have remembered this? Especially given what unfolded on Thursday evening. No doubt Mrs Fenn thought back to the Tuesday evening and (as Jane Tanner might say) was full of 'what ifs'?

What if Mrs Fenn had gone downstairs and knocked on the door? What if she had even gone inside the apartment? What if she had phone OC reception and someone had gone down to the apartment? What if a nanny had gone in? What if someone had gone to fetch the parents?  What if she had phoned the police. (I've known people phone police when they have heard a child crying in a car for no more than a few minutes when the parents have left that child asleep outside when they took groceries inside etc and the child woke up).

Also, who knows, if Mrs Fenn heard this crying, perhaps someone else did, or other people did who have not come forward (or who did but whose testimony has not been released).  Don't forget that one of the Tapasnik's stated in a witness statement (think it was Tanner but will check) that the checking was done partly to make sure that no child was 'screaming their head off'. What - you mean a bit like the night that a child from the Mc apartment was 'screaming his or her head off' for an hour and a quarter.

And I have also read that staff at the OC did find the parents on at least one evening when a child was heard crying from their apartment, but don't know if this is true?

Suppose the Mcs had had a row that evening and one or other of them had stormed off, leaving a sobbing Madeleine

Okay, so suppose it wasn't Madeleine or one of the twins or another Tapas child (or even Kate crying out 'Maddie')?

Then who was it? If it was something completely innocent, why would another guest not come forward and say it was their baby/child crying (and they were doing 'controlled crying' or something?) 

I'll believe Ms Chekaya and Mrs Fenn over Kate, Gerry or any of the TM any day.


http://www.mccannfiles.com/id331.html#fenn1

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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by j.rob on 30.08.14 15:22

@palm tree wrote:Rewatching it, according to km Wednesday night was the only night they stayed out until 11:50, and both agree Madeleine cried that night. Gm says Tuesday night AM cried, but on Wednesday night it was mm and sm? Km clearly let's him know am crying on Tuesday night was something he wasn't to mention IMO. So, was it Tuesday or Wednesday night that gm walked off and left her? I wonder what she says in her book about these nights?
I'd always thought Tuesday night was the night gm walked off? 
IMO

Just checked, but I didn't find anything about any girl being invited to the table, and Wednesday night was the night gm walked off. Have to check again, I know I read of it somewhere.


I think this is a deliberate attempt by TM to 'muddy the waters' and obfuscute. By acknowledging a crying incident at night they can 'pass off' Mrs Fenn's testimony as something completely innocuous - also casting doubt on her memory as she managed to get the wrong night even. They can also pretend that any kind of tiff happened as late as Wednesday, when I think that discord was building up long before this. I would imagine it also serves to acknowledge that, at least on one night, one of the Mcs did not sleep in the couple's bedroom. 

Kate even writes in her book that David Payne made a comment when Gerry supposedly went off without saying goodnight on, supposedly, Wednesday night.

I wonder if, in the event of some kind of domestic drama, the Paynes were the ones who waded in to sort out the mess.

Just suppose the Mcs had a row earlier in the week (or a series of them even). Just suppose Kate went off in a huff on Tuesday evening - maybe even went to sleep in the Payne's apartment or one of the other apartments?  Just suppose that someone (like David Payne or Matt) then went back to the Mc apartment after a period of time to try to get Gerry to offer KM an olive branch? Or vice versa? Or generally try to soothe the troubled waters.

Only theorizing, as always.

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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by palm tree on 30.08.14 15:33

I believe the quiz lady, just wondering why in the interview it was claimed that gm walked off and left km on the Wednesday, when quiz night was Tuesday. Can't find anything related to the quiz night, although I just skimmed through it.
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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by Newintown on 30.08.14 15:47

I believe Mrs Fenn's statement and also that of Nejoua Chekaya.  Why would either of them lie.  They had nothing to cover up.

When N Chekaya was invited to the table by GM she states that a chair was empty the whole time she was there, had KM walked out in a huff because GM suggested inviting NC to the table?  Was Madeleine getting a beating in the apartment from KM because KM was furious with GM.  Is that why crying was heard by Mrs Fenn for an hour and a half.  Mrs Fenn said that the crying got louder and louder, maybe Madeleine WAS crying "Daddy, Daddy" if KM had lost her temper.

Mikaeel Kular endured numerous beatings for 2 days before he died alone and sick.  There is no telling what parents will do to their child when a temper over rides their love/well being/hatred of that child.

Of course, it's all circumstantial but things happen as we read daily in the news.

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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by j.rob on 30.08.14 15:52

Perhaps of note is that Kate does not deny that one of their children was crying on Tuesday night. But she claims it is Amelie.

Kate claims that "only two minor aspects of that evening stand out as differing from the norm". 

This suggests to me that there were major aspects of that evening that mark it as being anything but normal.

"The first was that Russell didn't join us for dinner. Evie wasn't well so he stayed with their girls in the apartment and Jane took his meal to him."

I presume this is Kate accounting for the one place at the dinner table that was empty as recorded by Ms Chekaya (and maybe others). I also suspect that it was important to claim that there was at least one Tapas child who was unwell that week to allow for, possibly, extra washing and cleaning going on. And for other Tapas comings and goings sometimes carrying (supposedly?) sick/sleeping children.

"The second was that some time in the early hours Madeleine came through to our bedroom, complaining that Amelie was crying and had woken her up. Gerry checked on Amelie, who settled quickly, and we let Madeleine jump into bed with us."

Hmmmm......well. My take on this is that at no time 'in the early hours' of Tuesday night/Wednesday morning did Madeleine walk into the McCann's bedroom. She did not wake up in the early hours hearing Amelie crying. Nor did Madeleine 'jump' into Kate and Gerry's bed then.

IMO

The bit that could possibly be true (!) is that Amelie, or Sean, or both, were crying that night. But, on the other hand, Kate may simply have flagged up that a child was crying that night to provide 'cover' for the crying that Mrs Fenn reported. But by claiming it was Amelie, she refutes Mrs Fenn's testimony that the crying sounded like it came from a child over two. (in other words from Madeleine) . And by claiming the crying happened 'in the early hours' she refutes Mrs Fenn's testimony that the crying happened from 10.30pm until 11.45pm.

And by claiming that Madeleine was woken up by Amelies crying and 'jumped into' bed with Kate and Gerry, Kate minimizes the significance of the crying incident as heard by Mrs Fenn and minimizes any negative outcomes from it on Madeleine.

Sadly, I also believe that Madeleine was not capable of  'jumping' that night or the next day either....

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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by Newintown on 30.08.14 16:01

@j.rob wrote:Perhaps of note is that Kate does not deny that one of their children was crying on Tuesday night. But she claims it is Amelie.

Kate claims that "only two minor aspects of that evening stand out as differing from the norm". 

This suggests to me that there were major aspects of that evening that mark it as being anything but normal.

"The first was that Russell didn't join us for dinner. Evie wasn't well so he stayed with their girls in the apartment and Jane took his meal to him."

I presume this is Kate accounting for the one place at the dinner table that was empty as recorded by Ms Chekaya (and maybe others). I also suspect that it was important to claim that there was at least one Tapas child who was unwell that week to allow for, possibly, extra washing and cleaning going on. And for other Tapas comings and goings sometimes carrying (supposedly?) sick/sleeping children.

"The second was that some time in the early hours Madeleine came through to our bedroom, complaining that Amelie was crying and had woken her up. Gerry checked on Amelie, who settled quickly, and we let Madeleine jump into bed with us."

Hmmmm......well. My take on this is that at no time 'in the early hours' of Tuesday night/Wednesday morning did Madeleine walk into the McCann's bedroom. She did not wake up in the early hours hearing Amelie crying. Nor did Madeleine 'jump' into Kate and Gerry's bed then.

IMO

The bit that could possibly be true (!) is that Amelie, or Sean, or both, were crying that night. But, on the other hand, Kate may simply have flagged up that a child was crying that night to provide 'cover' for the crying that Mrs Fenn reported. But by claiming it was Amelie, she refutes Mrs Fenn's testimony that the crying sounded like it came from a child over two. (in other words from Madeleine) . And by claiming the crying happened 'in the early hours' she refutes Mrs Fenn's testimony that the crying happened from 10.30pm until 11.45pm.

And by claiming that Madeleine was woken up by Amelies crying and 'jumped into' bed with Kate and Gerry, Kate minimizes the significance of the crying incident as heard by Mrs Fenn and minimizes any negative outcomes from it on Madeleine.

Sadly, I also believe that Madeleine was not capable of  'jumping' that night or the next day either....

I'm sure Ms Chekaya would have remembered seeing KM at the table, with her blond hair and attractive face, and I'm sure KM would have introduced herself as KATE, GERRY'S WIFE, if Ms Chekaya was getting too friendly with GM.  As you say, the Tapas 9 always seem to come up with a story to fill in any gaps they hadn't thought of previously i.e. that Russell was the one missing from the table.  Who would know what Russell looked like except for the Tapas 9, but I'm sure Chekaya would DEFINITELY remember KM being at the table if she was.

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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by j.rob on 30.08.14 16:16

@Newintown wrote:I believe Mrs Fenn's statement and also that of Nejoua Chekaya.  Why would either of them lie.  They had nothing to cover up.

When N Chekaya was invited to the table by GM she states that a chair was empty the whole time she was there, had KM walked out in a huff because GM suggested inviting NC to the table?  Was Madeleine getting a beating in the apartment from KM because KM was furious with GM.  Is that why crying was heard by Mrs Fenn for an hour and a half.  Mrs Fenn said that the crying got louder and louder, maybe Madeleine WAS crying "Daddy, Daddy" if KM had lost her temper.

Mikaeel Kular endured numerous beatings for 2 days before he died alone and sick.  There is no telling what parents will do to their child when a temper over rides their love/well being/hatred of that child.

Of course, it's all circumstantial but things happen as we read daily in the news.

It is certainly not impossible. I suspect Ms Chekaya wishes she had never slapped eyes on any of TM. Could have been Kate in the apartment in a furious mood (and excess alcohol can make some people very aggressive) or Kate could have stormed off and it could have been Gerry in the apartment in a furious mood. Crying out 'Daddy' - or similar does not necessarily mean the child was crying out for his or her father. It could possibly have been a scared protest. Although I shudder to write that.

But I think that all the ingredients were there for an explosive cocktail of huge proportions.

A strained marriage, Very young children. Gerry finding family life uncongenial. Lots of bravado and braggadocio among the (male) Tapas. A competitive atmosphere (anyone ever been to a school quiz night - hysterical watching some of the over-competitive parents) An excess of alcohol. 

Throw into this already dangerously simmering pot some erotic tension/frustration

A jealous rage 

and

bomb .

A theory, but, imo, a less fanciful tale than mystery 'abductor'.

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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by Hicks on 30.08.14 16:23

Kate was most likely in the apartment on the Tuesday evening when Madeleine was crying for her father. There is a witness statement for one of the Nannies where she says that Madeleine was very clingy with her father. Imo Kate was aggressive with Madeleine as she was being a handful, lets face it, Kate always had plenty of help back home, I doubt there was a day when she looked after her children all by herself.
Also there were the rumours of a row with their Nanny back home, wasn't it due to the Nanny having to go and see a sick relative so she couldn't go on the holiday? Poor Kate then had to play at being a mother 24 hours a day, and on holiday!

In early newspaper reports it was said that in the afternoons GM played tennis while Kate put the children to bed for a couple of hours while she sunbathed by the pool. I am beginning to think that this could be a truer picture. I think that Madeleine died some time on Thursday during the day, possibly late afternoon, early evening. There are just too many witnesses who saw her that day, they all can't be lying.
I think of the mystery Tapas man who said he wanted to tell the truth of what happen, 'before the dinner' 'during the dinner' and 'afterwards'.
I take that to mean Madeleine died before the dinner .
All my opinion.

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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by Newintown on 30.08.14 16:53

@Hicks wrote:Kate was most likely in the apartment on the Tuesday evening when Madeleine was crying for her father. There is a witness statement for one of the Nannies where she says that Madeleine was very clingy with her father. Imo Kate was aggressive with Madeleine as she was being a handful, lets face it, Kate always had plenty of help back home, I doubt there was a day when she looked after her children all by herself.
Also there were the rumours of a row with their Nanny back home, wasn't it due to the Nanny having to go and see a sick relative so she couldn't go on the holiday? Poor Kate then had to play at being a mother 24 hours a day, and on holiday!

In early newspaper reports it was said that in the afternoons GM played tennis while Kate put the children to bed for a couple of hours while she sunbathed by the pool. I am beginning to think that this could be a truer picture. I think that Madeleine died some time on Thursday during the day, possibly late afternoon, early evening. There are just too many witnesses who saw her that day, they all can't be lying.
I think of the mystery Tapas man who said he wanted to tell the truth of what happen, 'before the dinner' 'during the dinner' and 'afterwards'.
I take that to mean Madeleine died before the dinner .
All my opinion.

As far as I can remember there were no independent sightings of Madeleine on the Thursday.  Even DW said in her police statement she doesn't remember seeing Madeleine at all on the Thursday.
 
If a substitute had been brought in for the creche would the nannies know whether it was Madeleine or not, she would just be another small, blond child in a group of other small blond children making up the required number of children, unless the nanny specifically spoke to the child as "Madeleine".  Even if she didn't get a response most children ignore you anyway when you speak to them if they're engaged in something interesting.  With a number of children to deal with in a group I doubt any creche nanny could say honestly that any named child was definitely there, unless they had a roll call when the activities started.

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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by j.rob on 30.08.14 17:23

@kimHager wrote:A thought just  came to me about ms. Fenn.. Im wondering if she made reference to the crying incident because she suspected abuse or something wierd going on in 5a.  Maybe she thought the poliece would come out and do a welfare check on the children, perhaps she made more anonymous calls or to the MW staff?  I believe now that she may have said something to Kate and Gerry before Maddy was missing or made some type of complaints because:
Kate sewms to havea strong dislike of ms. Fenn that doesnt seem normal since they arent acquainted (?)
Gerry saying a lil girl had been taken. Why did he say that.. I believe it was again he didnt want her talking to poliece. She may already had made calls.
I know she has since passed away but if she told anyone of yelling, abuse or maybe not seeing that lil girl again(?) or something to that extent... Someone may know something?  Again just my opinion but the mccanns reaction to her has bugged me and it hit me today maybe she was watching them.... I dont know sadly she may have never told anyone out of fear as she lived there and of the cover up that ensued after maddy was gone. Just my opinion


That's a really good point. Because if you then throw into the pot Murat's last-minute booking to fly out to the Algarve made late at night on Monday 30th April - arriving in the early hours of 1st May, then, if that is connected to what was going on that week/what happened to Madeleine it suggests that *something* was happening prior to Tuesday 1st May.

Mrs Fenn would obviously not have needed to use Robert Murat as a translator so if it is true that she told Murat about the crying incident, was this separate to her police statement? I wonder how well she knew Murat or Murat's mother?

Maybe Mrs Fenn heard or saw something suspicious prior to Tuesday evening? Or maybe there was some local speculation/worry/gossip. If Murat knew the McCanns and some of their party prior to that week, then that throws another layer of complexity onto the situation.

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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by PeterMac on 30.08.14 17:29

@Hicks wrote:I think that Madeleine died some time on Thursday during the day, possibly late afternoon, early evening. There are just too many witnesses who saw her that day, they all can't be lying.
Too many ?

From my reading there is almost no one, except K and G, who say she was alive on 3rd.
And they rather mess it up by Mitchell's insistence on the forged Last Photo, with the altered date, - prima facie evidence that something was not right -
Kate being sent on the run, the Tapas group being sent down to the Paraiso, and everyone else being made to get out of the way.
Then the family spirited away to the apartment - Madeleine being carried - just before the tapas group can make it back from their first and last tea time on the beach
The Payne "visit" is so full of holes and inconsistencies that one is allowed to doubt it happened at all.

Too much detail given by K and G. And almost nothing by anyone else.
But I am sure the new book will make it all clear !
Yet another "Version" of the truth, in fact.

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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by Tony Bennett on 30.08.14 17:47

@PeterMac wrote:
The Payne "visit" is so full of holes and inconsistencies that one is allowed to doubt it happened at all.
Surprisingly understated by you PM, even by your normal standards.

Put it this way, like you, I eagerly await Summers and Swan's 'most definitive account possible' of the TWENTY contradictions between Dr Kate McCann's and Dr David Payne's accounts of that claimed visit.

Maybe they will say that Dr Kate McCann's account is wholly correct and Dr David Payne's is wrong in 20 respects.

Or maybe Dr David Payne got it completely right - and Dr Kate McCann was mistaken in 20 respects (a bit like Robert Murat who got 17 things wholly wrong about his movements between 1 and 3 May when first questioned).

On the other hand, maybe Payne got, say, 6 bits right and Kate 14.

Or maybe the other way round: Payne 14, Kate 6.

Maybe it was a bit closer than that, say Kate got 11 parts right as against 9 bits right by Payne.

Or is there another possibility altogether - that the whole thing never happened, that when it came to being questioned, neither of them could remember their lines properly, and that both have thereby perverted the course of justice by lying?

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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by Newintown on 30.08.14 17:53

@PeterMac wrote:
@Hicks wrote:I think that Madeleine died some time on Thursday during the day, possibly late afternoon, early evening. There are just too many witnesses who saw her that day, they all can't be lying.
Too many ?

From my reading there is almost no one, except K and G, who say she was alive on 3rd.
And they rather mess it up by Mitchell's insistence on the forged Last Photo, with the altered date, - prima facie evidence that something was not right -
Kate being sent on the run, the Tapas group being sent down to the Paraiso, and everyone else being made to get out of the way.
Then the family spirited away to the apartment - Madeleine being carried - just before the tapas group can make it back from their first and last tea time on the beach
The Payne "visit" is so full of holes and inconsistencies that one is allowed to doubt it happened at all.

Too much detail given by K and G. And almost nothing by anyone else.
But I am sure the new book will make it all clear !
Yet another "Version" of the truth, in fact.

As I mentioned a couple of posts back, DW said in her statement that she didn't remember seeing Madeleine at all on the Thursday.

It does seem suspicious that the Tapas group were all down at the Paraiso, everyone being made to get out of way, maybe the day that the scene was being set for the "abduction".  None of them seem to have been down at the Paraiso for a "group get together" before 3rd May as you would have thought a group of people would do so if they were on holiday together and wanted to be sociable, especially seeing they all had small children, something in common.

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