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Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by j.rob on 25.08.14 22:44

Talking of childcare, interesting how this article in the Daily Mail flags up the vetting of Mark Warner nannies: 

Three weeks after I returned from Egypt, the disappearance of Madeleine McCann from a Mark Warner resort in Praia da Luz in Portugal made headlines around the world.

No one blamed the company or its staff for the little girl's disappearance, but given the case, I assumed the company would toughen up its vetting of nannies.

To test this out, a BBC colleague applied for a Mark Warner childcare job and was sent to an upmarket French ski resort.

Her false CV went unchecked and, months after the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, the company still didn't do a CRB check before she started work.

Later, I recounted my experiences to Mark Warner's managing director.
He refused to be interviewed but issued a statement that said: "It is company policy that all childcare staff employed by Mark Warner must supply two references and submit a form to check their criminal record.

"There were clearly two occasions where we failed to do this. That is completely unacceptable and we apologise.
"We have now reviewed and strengthened our procedures."


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-526248/The-shocking-truth-daycare-nurseries-creches.html#ixzz3BRIGuqej 
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Interesting article. The parents elected not to use the night creche; not to hire a babysitter; not to eat in the apartment where their children were sleeping; not to take the children out with them at dinner time; not to share childcare arrangements with the large group of friends who were also out with them, not to leave their children at home in the UK to be looked after by a responsible adult while they went on a holiday where they did not want to babysit, look after their children or arrange for babysitters in the evening.

So what has this got to do with Mark Warner needing to improve the vetting of nannies?

Surely it is more to do with Mark Warner needing to vet the calibre of parents who go on their holidays with very young children?

But perhaps - reading between the lines - and in particular reading through the lines of the Ocean Club creche sign in sheets and the nanny witness statements (and considering what might be signified by the weird 'last photos' and other red flags) this article is flagging issues of the utmost importance. Relating to company procedures, and so on.

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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by j.rob on 27.08.14 14:13

Later, I recounted my experiences to Mark Warner's managing director.
He refused to be interviewed but issued a statement that said: "It is company policy that all childcare staff employed by Mark Warner must supply two references and submit a form to check their criminal record.

"There were clearly two occasions where we failed to do this. That is completely unacceptable and we apologise.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-526248/The-shocking-truth-daycare-nurseries-creches.html#ixzz3Bb0eR9b3 
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If, as some have theorized, Madeleine did not attend the Mark Warner children's club for most of the week. And the weird photos allegedly taken on Tuesday and Thursday indicate to me that she was not in the creche from Tuesday. And the absence of any genuine-looking photos of Madeleine that week from the McCanns or their friends or acquaintances or, indeed, ANYONE (Philip Hodge - would you like to produce the photograph which you allege you have with Madeleine in it that was taken on Thursday 3rd May 2007?)  suggest to me that Madeleine was NOT enjoying a lovely holiday at the OC up to the time of her alleged 'abduction' on Thursday evening. 

Possibly not even in the children's club on Monday. Maybe only on Sunday. (Maybe even not Sunday - who knows?)

Then, that means that EITHER one or several other children were signed in as Madeleine. And the nannies simply assumed that Madeleine McCann was another child (perhaps the other Madeleine who was on holiday with another family - really would be good to have more information on this?) OR the nannies knew that Madeleine didn't attend the creche every day up until Thursday afternoon, but (were coerced into) lied about it. 

IF another child was 'passed off' as Madeleine McCann during at least some of that week, that could really only work surely if the child had the same name, or at least a similar name? So IF the other child called Madeleine was sometimes passed off as Madeleine McCann, was this child known as Madeleine?

Could this possibly account for Kate in her book making a thing about Madeleine not wanting to be called Maddie? When there are many indications that Madeleine McCann had been called Maddie? 

Surely if Madeleine McCann had attended the children's club up to Thursday afternoon that week, there would have been quite a bit of her DNA there? Water bottle or cup, for instance? Bag?

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id169.html

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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by sharonl on 27.08.14 22:42

J.Rob

In your post you refer to Nannie(s) in the plural.  Are you aware of the crèche set up?  I ask because I once imagined that the crèche was one building with a reception area and a large play area which was partitioned off for different age groups, with lots of kids and nannies around.  I imagined that the children would be booked in at the main reception and then placed in the care of the nanny in charge of that age group.  I was completely wrong.


The crèche is not just one building, it is split into four (maybe 5) buildings, scattered around the complex. Each building catered for a certain age group and there were a 2-3 groups in each building.  These groups consisted of a maximum of 7 children.

There was no main reception in any of the buildings.  There were 13 nannies overall and each nanny was allocated her own group and her own private room.  The nanny allocated to a child would be the nanny for that childs' entire holiday.   The nanny would also be responsible for booking the child in and out of the crèche, or more likely, return the child to her parents at tea time.


Madeleine was put into the Lobster Club with nanny Cat Baker who befriended the McCanns and even visited them at their home in Rothley.  As far as I am aware, the only other nanny in the same building, but not in the same room, as Cat Baker, was Rhiannon Fretter (I may need to check this).  She said that on one occasion she did see a child who may have been Madeleine.

It is unlikely that a nanny would leave her 7 children to pop next door for a chat with the other nanny.  Therefore, if this is correct, the only nanny who really would have seen Madeleine at the crèche would be Cat Baker.

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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by nglfi on 28.08.14 7:48

That is very interesting,  I was going over Charlotte Pennington's evidence on the McCannfiles website yesterday.  If this was the arrangement, of having several different rooms in different buildings for the different age groups,  and Cat Baker was Maddie's nanny, then it seems a lot of Pennington's evidence is twaddle. She says she read Maddie a story on the third, and nakes out that although she didn't directly look after Maddie, she saw her every day and even built up a picture of her personality. Interesting.

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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by BlueBag on 28.08.14 9:41

j.rob wrote:Who knows, perhaps it was Tuesday evening when the Mcs had their 'tiff' rather than the Wednesday evening which is when Kate claims Gerry left the table abruptly at 11.50pm and Kate slept in the children's bedroom. Could a fit of jealous rage have precipitated a row?

YES!

It was Tuesday in my opinion.

There is a Irish TV interview where Gerry slips up and says Kate slept in the room on Tuesday "the night Amelie was crying"... there is no mistake.. that is the exact context... he meant Tuesday.

If you watch Kate's reaction when he says this you know he's messed up, she lets him know by touching his hand, and then Gerry gets a little uncertain.

Tuesday night is the key.
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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by worriedmum on 28.08.14 10:06

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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by BlueBag on 28.08.14 10:15

worriedmum wrote:Do you mean this RTE interview, Bluebag?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=WLvnfcl-Zkg#t=771               at about 15.20

YES!

Watch Gerry from 15.00

He slips up and Kate lets him know.

This is important in my opinion.
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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by palm tree on 28.08.14 11:57

Hicks wrote:Please ignore this Daily Mail headline. Look down the page and you will see where is says Mrs Fenn was in her apartment on the 3rd May and what she heard.
Perhaps the Mail had made a mistake.....perhaps not.
I wonder if Mrs Fenn had been got at? Could be why she changed her story?

There are rumours of witnesses who saw Kate act aggressive, and at times out of control with Madeleine.

 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-481168/Gerry-Madeleines-real-father-The-Portuguese-medias-latest-attack-McCanns.html.

 When you have a media manipulator controlling what is allowed out into the public domain, and what is not, the truth gets diluted and eventually washed away.
IMO Mrs Fenn wouldn't have made it up, no need to. I'd say she heard quite a bit and ofcourse gm lying by the pool and km on her own in the apartment. Did she hear this on the 3rd? That would mean Madeleine was alive and well on the Thursday.
IMO
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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by Hicks on 28.08.14 14:57

palm tree wrote:
Hicks wrote:Please ignore this Daily Mail headline. Look down the page and you will see where is says Mrs Fenn was in her apartment on the 3rd May and what she heard.
Perhaps the Mail had made a mistake.....perhaps not.
I wonder if Mrs Fenn had been got at? Could be why she changed her story?

There are rumours of witnesses who saw Kate act aggressive, and at times out of control with Madeleine.

 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-481168/Gerry-Madeleines-real-father-The-Portuguese-medias-latest-attack-McCanns.html.

 When you have a media manipulator controlling what is allowed out into the public domain, and what is not, the truth gets diluted and eventually washed away.
IMO Mrs Fenn wouldn't have made it up, no need to. I'd say she heard quite a bit and ofcourse gm lying by the pool and km on her own in the apartment. Did she hear this on the 3rd? That would mean Madeleine was alive and well on the Thursday.
IMO
I have come to the conclusion that poor Madeleine met her fate some time on the Thursday. It is most likely that Mrs Fenn did hear a disturbance below on the 3rd. The witness reports of Kate's aggression towards her children would be consistent with photographic evidence. Examine the tennis photo, see the marks on her arm. The make up photo shows bruising.
Of course through time these reports of aggression have been washed out of the story. This alone though would not explain the reason why there appears to be a cover up. Something else must alslo be in the mix. All imo.

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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by palm tree on 28.08.14 16:00

Agreed Hicks, something really bad to have to conceal a body, it's something that I find hard to think about and why I keep trying to go back to an accident but that just doesn't wash in this case. Crying
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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by BlueBag on 28.08.14 16:08

Hicks wrote:I have come to the conclusion that poor Madeleine met her fate some time on the Thursday.

That doesn't stop the process starting on Tuesday though.

In opinion Kate sleeping in the same room from Tuesday night (thanks Gerry) was for monitoring Madeleine.
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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by j.rob on 28.08.14 16:43

sharonl wrote:J.Rob

In your post you refer to Nannie(s) in the plural.  Are you aware of the crèche set up?  I ask because I once imagined that the crèche was one building with a reception area and a large play area which was partitioned off for different age groups, with lots of kids and nannies around.  I imagined that the children would be booked in at the main reception and then placed in the care of the nanny in charge of that age group.  I was completely wrong.


The crèche is not just one building, it is split into four (maybe 5) buildings, scattered around the complex. Each building catered for a certain age group and there were a 2-3 groups in each building.  These groups consisted of a maximum of 7 children.

There was no main reception in any of the buildings.  There were 13 nannies overall and each nanny was allocated her own group and her own private room.  The nanny allocated to a child would be the nanny for that childs' entire holiday.   The nanny would also be responsible for booking the child in and out of the crèche, or more likely, return the child to her parents at tea time.


Madeleine was put into the Lobster Club with nanny Cat Baker who befriended the McCanns and even visited them at their home in Rothley.  As far as I am aware, the only other nanny in the same building, but not in the same room, as Cat Baker, was Rhiannon Fretter (I may need to check this).  She said that on one occasion she did see a child who may have been Madeleine.

It is unlikely that a nanny would leave her 7 children to pop next door for a chat with the other nanny.  Therefore, if this is correct, the only nanny who really would have seen Madeleine at the crèche would be Cat Baker.

Okay, thanks for that clarification. Although I suppose for (some of) the activities there would sometimes need to be an extra nanny? Or the nannies would sometimes team up with another group to share in activities?

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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by j.rob on 28.08.14 17:03

BlueBag wrote:
j.rob wrote:Who knows, perhaps it was Tuesday evening when the Mcs had their 'tiff' rather than the Wednesday evening which is when Kate claims Gerry left the table abruptly at 11.50pm and Kate slept in the children's bedroom. Could a fit of jealous rage have precipitated a row?

YES!

It was Tuesday in my opinion.

There is a Irish TV interview where Gerry slips up and says Kate slept in the room on Tuesday "the night Amelie was crying"... there is no mistake.. that is the exact context... he meant Tuesday.

If you watch Kate's reaction when he says this you know he's messed up, she lets him know by touching his hand, and then Gerry gets a little uncertain.

Tuesday night is the key.

The Irish interviewer was very animated when he asked the Mc's about their 'row'. Kate was defensive, claiming they 'never rowed'. But I am wondering if a row on Tuesday evening may also have been precipitated by something that happened during the day on Tuesday or even earlier? Because to my mind that tennis ball photo of Madeleine is decidedly peculiar (why is she not, for instance, wearing trainers - she is wearing them in other photos allegedly taken during that week - eg: the playground photo? Plus, apart from sandals being unsuitable for running on tennis-courts, the weather was quite cold.)

I agree that Tuesday night is probably a biggie. But I wonder if the seeds were sown earlier in the week - Sunday evening quiz night at Tapas lead by curvy aerobics teacher? GM catches her eye?  Then GM rubs Kate's nose in it by inviting curvy aerobics to join his table after the Tuesday quiz that she organized at Tapas?

While Kate, in her book, muddies the waters by claiming that she was upset by Gerry on Wednesday evening, I think you are right that it was Tuesday evening when there was a row - as confirmed by GM in the interview above.

Kate writes: "I must admit I was slightly hurt that Gerry should go off without me, as if I was unimportant, irrelevant even.......I am not sure why I was miffed by his lack of social graces that particular evening."

Well, flirting with the curvaceous aerobics instructor in front of your wife, possibly on two evening, and then personally inviting her to join your dinner table on your 'en-famille' holiday could be considered to be more than a little -  bomb .

Leading to:   angry2

And I think poor little Madeleine got the brunt of it.......

IMO

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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by Newintown on 28.08.14 17:28

Just to recap on Pamela Fenn's statement -

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm

"She said that after the mothers shouts, she had seen many people in the streets looking for the girl. She also refers to an episode when Gerry was speaking to a policeman and he refused to recognised the police force, saying that more agents of authority were needed to carry out the search.
When asked, she replied that on 3rd May she did not hear any noise from the McCann apartment, not even the opening of doors. She also said that before hearing the shouts she was watching television, as she often stays up late.

When questioned, she said that she never heard any arguments between the couple or with their children. She said that the family would spend much time outside of the apartment and therefore she did not notice their presence.
She said that until that night she had never spoken to the McCann's, because up until the 3rd May, she only sometimes saw them walking in the street. She never saw them with any vehicle.
She also said that she never told the McCann's that she had heard their daughter crying previously on 1st May because she thought it would just increase their suffering."


Mrs Fenn seems adamant about what she heard, she wasn't some "daft old bat" that KM was trying to make out she was.

If Mrs Fenn said she heard a child crying on 1st May, I believe that was what she heard.

ETA: as mentioned by j.rob and bluebag in their earlier posts, it does seem that everything kicked off on the Tuesday night.  Mrs Fenn hearing crying for over an hour, something may have happened to Madeleine during that evening/night, Madeleine died sometime early Wednesday, Wednesday was clean up of the apartment and perhaps disposal of Madeleine Wednesday night when it was dark (in bag in bedroom cupboard during the day).  Mrs Fenn didn't hear any movement in the McCanns' apartment on the Thursday perhaps MCanns were too traumatised to be in the apartment and stayed and slept elsewhere until the false alarm had to be raised at 10 p.m. with GM carrying Ellie as a decoy through PDL.  Twins weren't even in the apartment at 10.00 p.m. according to one of the nannies who was first on the scene but were brought in later.

All IMO of course.

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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by juliet on 28.08.14 19:04

The crying heard by Mrs Fenn was so prolonged and distressed, it's chilling. Yet KM's phone triangulation (I think) placed her inside the apartment when the child was crying. Sinister. Then Gerry says Amelie was crying on Tuesday night and Kate barges in to shut him up...
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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by sharonl on 28.08.14 20:30

juliet wrote:The crying heard by Mrs Fenn was so prolonged and distressed, it's chilling. Yet KM's phone triangulation (I think) placed her inside the apartment when the child was crying. Sinister. Then Gerry says Amelie was crying on Tuesday night and Kate barges in to shut him up...

Didn't Mrs Fenn make a point of stressing that it was not a child of 2 or under but an older child that she had heard?

Who did she phone that night?  According to her it was her friend, Edna Glyn but according to the statement of a GNR officer it was Robert Murat ( I assume that if this is the case, the call was meant for her friend, Jenny Murat)

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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by Newintown on 28.08.14 21:47

sharonl wrote:
juliet wrote:The crying heard by Mrs Fenn was so prolonged and distressed, it's chilling. Yet KM's phone triangulation (I think) placed her inside the apartment when the child was crying. Sinister. Then Gerry says Amelie was crying on Tuesday night and Kate barges in to shut him up...

Didn't Mrs Fenn make a point of stressing that it was not a child of 2 or under but an older child that she had heard?

Who did she phone that night?  According to her it was her friend, Edna Glyn but according to the statement of a GNR officer it was Robert Murat ( I assume that if this is the case, the call was meant for her friend, Jenny Murat)

I've taken this from Mrs Fenn's statement-

She also refers to the day of the 1st May 2007, when she was at home alone, at approximately 22.30 she heard a child cry, and that due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger. Apart from the crying that continued for approximately one hour and fifteen minutes, and which got louder and more expressive, the child shouted ?Daddy, Daddy?, the witness had no doubt that the noise came from the floor below. At about 23.45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse.
When questioned, she said that she did not know the cause of the crying, perhaps a nightmare or another destabilising factor.
As soon as the parents entered the child stopped crying.
That night she contacted a friend called EDNA GLYN, who also lives in Praia da Luz, after 23.00, telling her about the situation, who was not surprised at the childs crying.
She did not have anything to report for the 2nd May, because she was only home at night.


---------------

Sharoni, do you have a link to the statement of the GNR officer saying that Mrs Fenn phoned Robert Murat?

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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by Hicks on 28.08.14 22:12

There is mention of the GNR Officer in this link


http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1805.90.


Will try and re-post the link.

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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by Hicks on 28.08.14 22:27

This is the GNR Officer's statement.

The Officer doesn't name Mrs Fenn, but it's likely that is was she whom RM was referring too.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id258.html#gnr5.

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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by Newintown on 28.08.14 23:02

Hicks wrote:This is the GNR Officer's statement.

The Officer doesn't name Mrs Fenn, but it's likely that is was she whom RM was referring too.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id258.html#gnr5.

The statement by the GNR officer referring to Mrs Fenn doesn't really make sense or could be interpreted in different ways -

When asked he said that he never saw Robert Murat in all the times he visited the scene.
He does remember however, that on a day he cannot recall, an individual who identified himself as Robert, saying that he was in P da L as a translator helping the PJ, phoned the Lagos post saying:
That some foreign women, who had already been interviewed by the police, had phoned him, telling him that there was a child crying in an apartment near to them.
No more is said. Reads, ratifies, signs.

---------------------

Mrs Fenn "most likely the foreign woman" had already been interviewed according to that statement, she was only reiterating the fact that she had heard a child crying, it doesn't state which date Mrs Fenn was referring to.

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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by sharonl on 28.08.14 23:07

What the officer actually states is this:

When asked he said that he never saw Robert Murat in all the times he visited the scene.

He does remember however, that on a day he cannot recall, an individual who identified himself as Robert, saying that he was in P da L as a translator helping the PJ, phoned the Lagos post saying:

That some foreign women, who had already been interviewed by the police, had phoned him, telling him that there was a child crying in an apartment near to them.


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAOLO_COSTA.htm


This does not actually name Mrs Fenn, but how many foreign women would have a phoned the Murats that night to tell them that a child was crying in an apartment near them?

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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by Newintown on 28.08.14 23:19

sharonl wrote:What the officer actually states is this:

When asked he said that he never saw Robert Murat in all the times he visited the scene.

He does remember however, that on a day he cannot recall, an individual who identified himself as Robert, saying that he was in P da L as a translator helping the PJ, phoned the Lagos post saying:

That some foreign women, who had already been interviewed by the police, had phoned him, telling him that there was a child crying in an apartment near to them.


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAOLO_COSTA.htm


This does not actually name Mrs Fenn, but how many foreign women would have a phoned the Murats that night to tell them that a child was crying in an apartment near them?

I have read the statement and it doesn't actually say which night Mrs Fenn phoned Murat.   It just states thats Mrs Fenn had been interviewed and she rang Murat to tell him about the crying child.  It could be interpreted in one or two ways.

If Murat had phoned the Lagos Post then obviously the "crying" was in the past and not as it happened, Mrs Fenn was just confirming what she had heard in the past and not as it was happening, if that makes sense.

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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by palm tree on 28.08.14 23:35

I take this to be, on the 1st May Mrs Fenn heard the crying and phoned EG, then, after the disappearance and her statement, phoned RM to let him know off the crying incident as she knew he had been helping with the translations? I wonder why Mrs Fenns friend EG was not surprised at the crying on the 1st?
IMO
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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by Okeydokey on 29.08.14 1:57

palm tree wrote:I take this to be, on the 1st May Mrs Fenn heard the crying and phoned EG, then, after the disappearance and her statement, phoned RM to let him know off the crying incident as she knew he had been helping with the translations? I wonder why Mrs Fenns friend EG was not surprised at the crying on the 1st?
IMO

Interesting! Never knew about this...you can see how theoretically this could be a motive for identifying Murat as a possible perpetrator.

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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by BlueBag on 29.08.14 8:19

Newintown wrote:She also refers to the day of the 1st May 2007, when she was at home alone, at approximately 22.30 she heard a child cry, and that due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger. Apart from the crying that continued for approximately one hour and fifteen minutes, and which got louder and more expressive, the child shouted ?Daddy, Daddy?, the witness had no doubt that the noise came from the floor below. At about 23.45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse.
When questioned, she said that she did not know the cause of the crying, perhaps a nightmare or another destabilising factor.
As soon as the parents entered the child stopped crying.
That night she contacted a friend called EDNA GLYN, who also lives in Praia da Luz, after 23.00, telling her about the situation, who was not surprised at the childs crying.
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What if Mrs Fenn was wrong and it was "Amelie crying" on Tuesday as Gerry said on Irish TV.

What if Amelie was crying "Maddy.. Maddy..".

Of course the McCanns stressed that they never called her "Maddy" (I think we know different now).

I strongly believe something kicked off on Tuesday night, either Madeleine died them or became mortally ill.

All opinion of course.
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