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Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by sharonl on 31.03.14 8:23

@Upsy Daisy wrote:Was n't RM in theUK on the first or on his hasty way back to PDL ?    This is sounding a bit more sinister, if she was potentially told to ' keep schtum
- see, hear nothing'.

Didn't he get an early morning flight back to Portugal on the 1st?

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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by Tony Bennett on 31.03.14 8:52

@sharonl wrote:
@Upsy Daisy wrote:Wasn't RM in the UK on the first - or on his hasty way back to PDL ?  his is sounding a bit more sinister, if she was potentially told to 'keep schtum - see, hear nothing'.

Didn't he get an early morning flight back to Portugal on the 1st?
The facts are these:

1. Robert Murat said he was contacted on Monday 30 April by his girlfriend Michaela Walczuk who needed him to come over to Praia da Luz ASAP because she was fed up waiting for his divorce from Dawn to be sorted out.

2. I believe both RM and MW later confirmed that this need to finalise the divorce with Dawn was why Robert Murat was urgently seeking to contact his lawyer, Lagos-based Francisco Pagarete. He was able to see him on Wednesday 2 May. 

3. Robert Murat says he was staying with one of his sisters in or near Sidmouth, Devon, on 30 April. He further says that he was repairing and refurbishing his grandmother's house in Sidmouth. His other sister lived nar Exeter, about 25 miles away from Sidmouth.

4. He booked his flight to Faro at midnight 30 April/1 May.

5. His sister took him to Exeter Airport, leaving at about 5am on Tuesday 1 May. The flight was at 7.00am. He arrived in Faro at about 9.30am.

6. When questioned by police on 15 May, the day he was made an arguido, he lied about 17 different matters regarding his movements and actions on 1, 2 , 3 and 4 May. He only changed his story when, on 10 & 11 July 2007, the Portguese Police confronted him with mobile 'phone antenna records which showed where his mobiled 'phone 'pinged'. He claimed he had been 'too tired' to tell the truth when questioned on 15 May.

Some of the questions about the above facts include:

1. Have Robert Murat and Michaela been truthful about why Robert Murat was summoned in haste to Portugal?

2. Was it indeed Michaela Walczuk who urgently summoned Murat to Praia da Luz - or somebody else?

3. Why did Murat need to see his Portuguese lawyer Pagarete when (according to him and MW) this was about a marriage in Britian and a divorce that would be granted in Britain?

4. Has Murat given a truthful account of his reason for seeing his Portuguese lawyer?

5. Why did Murat initially lie about the fact that he attended a meeting at the Palmeras Golf Club (15 miles east of Praia da Luz) in the early afternoon of Thursday 3 May?

6. Has Murat told the truth about who he met at the Palmeras Golf Club that afternoon?

7. Did Robert Murat and Dr Gerald McCann already know each other?

8. Were Robert Murat and Dr Gerald McCann in contact with each other on either (or both) 2 & 3 May?

9. Murat claimed that he had a succession of meetings on 1, 2 and 3 May, including with Mr da Silva and his son, about setting up a website for his new property company, Romigen. Was that the real reason for all those meetings?

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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by russiandoll on 31.03.14 9:51

quote Kim H :  Ms. Fenn according to Kate was acting like a tin of beans hit someone on the head...

 No, the woman was not named, but we can infer that the plummy voiced one was Mrs Fenn. Kate was upset that this posh lady reacted as if she had been told that A CAN OF BEANS HAD FALLEN OFF A KITCHEN SHELF.

I can't stress enough the importance of this from Kate, who imo has leaked a huge part of the truth re  "what became of Madeleine " to use Redwood's words.

 You are annoyed at what you perceive as an under-reaction to bad news.
 You logically think of news which is relatively less distressing than your child being stolen.

 Something less valuable [ personal belonging/s] being STOLEN.
      OR
 Your very valuable child having been victim to a less distressing event than being STOLEN.

 For example, having HAD A FALL, HAVING FALLEN.  [ Bad if injured, but not as bad as being stolen, probably by a man intending her harm]

 She neither uses the example of a THING being stolen, nor of her child FALLING, to show a lesser event.
 
 She uses an inanimate object and a different verb. Maddie is not mentioned, neither is the concept of a thing being taken.
 Basically, logic dictates that Kate

 should have mentioned Maddie, with a different verb, to make her point re Mrs Fenn

 or have stuck with the same verb, but replaced Maddie with an item of less worth.

 

 It makes no sense for what she is trying to convey here, but it tells the reader a great deal about what happened to her daughter imo.

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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by kimHager on 31.03.14 16:36

Agreed Russiandoll I believe Kate leaks the truth in her haste to make more lies. Yes she would have said something like " she acted like someone had taken a car instead of my Madeleine " but Kate references things in a distancing manner.
Definitely think it was Ms. Fenn she was talking about. I believe she knew Ms. Fenn could have heard or saw more and wanted to make her look bad so people would not think she cared about a child being abducted. All the sympathy good or Kate can get is the priority there. Sympathy = innocence (look at them they couldn't have hurt their child )oh and sympathy =fund money.
Going to go look through the PJ files for an interview with Ms. Fenn. : )

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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by Nina on 31.03.14 16:39

Did Mrs Fenn comment at all about the rest of the week and what she saw/and or/ heard from apartment 5A?

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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by j.rob on 31.03.14 17:29

The McCanns very swiftly dispatched anyone who might hinder their version of events - in other words key impartial witnesses. Mrs Fenn, for instance, is a KEY witness, especially when you consider the crying incident. Just suppose, for instance, that Madeleine's increasingly anguished crying on Monday night WAS due to some kind of accident or untoward event/reaction to drug or something (or indeed anything else that would cause a child to be greatly distressed) . She is reported as saying that the crying became increasingly distressed as time went on. If it was just a child waking up and then crying themselves back to sleep, the crying would lessen as time went on, not increase.

Kate in her book claims that Madeleine on Thursday morning asked why the parents did not come when her and Sean woke up and cried the night before - eg: Wednesday night. I think this is a deliberate deception and smoke-screen which serves several purposes.

It obfuscates the crying incident as heard by Mrs Fenn. By acknowledging the crying, but placing it on a different night Kate sows a seed of doubt that Mrs Fenn may have got the evening she heard crying muddled up. And Kate's account of the crying incident - more crucially perhaps - turns it into something benign. 

"She certainly didn't seem to be at all anxious or upset."

This makes me hugely suspicious that there WAS a crying incident which caused Madeleine a great deal of anxiety and upset and that the McCanns are trying to spin their way out of it. If it WAS Madeleine crying out for an hour and a quarter on Monday evening, a cry that apparently increased in intensity, then something was happening to make her extremely anxious and upset.

I think that the other purpose served by placing the crying on Wednesday evening is that it puts Madeleine as alive and well and full of beans (perhaps an unfortunate term given Kate's baked bean can comment) on Thursday morning.

No wonder the McCAnns and their friends were so keen to swear at Mrs Fenn.

One can only speculate as to why the crying stopped very abruptly when Mrs Fenn heard someone or several people (which she assumed to be the McCann parents) opening the patio doors to return to the apartment. Presumably, Mrs Fenn assumed that Kate and Gerry had returned from dinner and had found Madeleine distressed and then comforted her, which is why the crying abruptly stopped.

In any event, this is a VERY long time indeed for a child to cry - especially a child of that age at night. And especially a cry that increases in intensity.

Such a shame that a responsible adult (in other words, not the McCAnns or their friends, imo) didn't investigate, But unfortunately, this is what so often seems to happen in child abuse cases. Because it is hidden behind closed doors, the warning signs are ignored. And who would believe that a group of doctors and other professionals on a family holiday with babies and young children would be guilty of anything as horrendous as neglect/child abuse and the like?

No-one wants to think the unthinkable.

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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by Mirage on 31.03.14 17:45

j.rob wrote;

'The McCanns very swiftly dispatched anyone who might hinder their version of events..............'

-------------------------------
j.rob, that opener of yours caught my eye and I immediately recalled the curious dispatching of the grans,  KH made  reference to the incident in KH1. I don't think the grans had been there long when it happened. Anyway, there seemed to have been some disagreement  as far as I recall. EM turned to SH and said, 'Looks as if we're on the granny express home, Sue.'

How peculiar! You would have thought KH would have wanted her mother by her side, as we all do in times of distress, no matter what our age or relationship. My relationship with my (deceased)  mother was very difficult indeed, but I still have a yearning for her to be with me in times of distress. Even soldiers serving at the Front in WW1 could cry unashamedly for their mothers when in extremis. This IMO, is not a natural response. Not by a long way.

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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by kimHager on 31.03.14 19:20

That's very true mirage I didn't know about her sending away the grandmas which is a big old red flag. A grandmother would be a welcome respite so the mccanns could have had more time to search for their abducted daughter. Gma could. Keep the twins entertained and SAFE which would be my concern if it were my children.... But no.... This is TM's who are the epitome of perfect parenting..

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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by Guest on 31.03.14 19:22

@ Mirage
Which leads me again to think WHY Madeleine in distress would not have been calling for her mother. "Mammy" [or "Mummy"] doesn't quite sound the same as "Daddy" [or "Maddy" as for that matter].
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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by tigger on 31.03.14 19:23

@Mirage wrote:j.rob wrote;

'The McCanns very swiftly dispatched anyone who might hinder their version of events..............'

-------------------------------
j.rob, that opener of yours caught my eye and I immediately recalled the curious dispatching of the grans,  KH made  reference to the incident in KH1. I don't think the grans had been there long when it happened. Anyway, there seemed to have been some disagreement  as far as I recall. EM turned to SH  and said, 'Looks as if we're on the granny express home, Sue.'

How peculiar! You would have thought KH would have wanted her mother by her side, as we all do in times of distress, no matter what our age or relationship. My relationship with my (deceased)  mother was very difficult indeed, but I still have a yearning for her to be with me in times of distress. Even soldiers serving at the Front in WW1 could cry unashamedly for their mothers when in extremis. This IMO, is not a natural response. Not by a long way.

According to the book: grannies were told on Sunday night by none other than Pike! Who had suggested paring down the help. just before that is the lovely little vignette of the family having gone to a cafe and when lunchtime came, the McCanns had to collect the twins themselves! But don't worry, they found someone to give them lunch.

It's well worth reading that  bit of the book, it says a lot about Kate's relationship with the family. Seems they couldn't do anything right. O yes, Kate organised a search as well, but doesn't go into much detail.
But mainly I get the idea that it was pointless to have the family there if they couldn't even look after the twins.

Now that is just the one task I'd have found hard to delegate. Those little bodies to be hugged, those two little people to talk to and  keep close, keep safe. But they were back in the creche on the first Saturday, opened especially by MW for the McCanns.

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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by Dr What on 31.03.14 19:59

I suspect that the McCanns breathed a huge sigh of relief when Mrs Fenn passed away and was unable to personally testify in any future proceedings.Any statements that she made at the time can now be discredited.

That is one problem out of the way.

However, I suspect that Mrs Fenn is never far away from Kate Healy.She sees her in every dream or nightmare she has.Looking down at her from her balcony. 

You never know.Maddie might be standing there next to Mrs Fenn.In the dream, of course.

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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by j.rob on 31.03.14 20:07

@tigger wrote:
@Mirage wrote:j.rob wrote;

'The McCanns very swiftly dispatched anyone who might hinder their version of events..............'

-------------------------------
j.rob, that opener of yours caught my eye and I immediately recalled the curious dispatching of the grans,  KH made  reference to the incident in KH1. I don't think the grans had been there long when it happened. Anyway, there seemed to have been some disagreement  as far as I recall. EM turned to SH  and said, 'Looks as if we're on the granny express home, Sue.'

How peculiar! You would have thought KH would have wanted her mother by her side, as we all do in times of distress, no matter what our age or relationship. My relationship with my (deceased)  mother was very difficult indeed, but I still have a yearning for her to be with me in times of distress. Even soldiers serving at the Front in WW1 could cry unashamedly for their mothers when in extremis. This IMO, is not a natural response. Not by a long way.

According to the book: grannies were told on Sunday night by none other than Pike! Who had suggested paring down the help. just before that is the lovely little vignette of the family having gone to a cafe and when lunchtime came, the McCanns had to collect the twins themselves! But don't worry, they found someone to give them lunch.

It's well worth reading that  bit of the book, it says a lot about Kate's relationship with the family. Seems they couldn't do anything right. O yes, Kate organised a search as well, but doesn't go into much detail.
But mainly I get the idea that it was pointless to have the family there if they couldn't even look after the twins.

Now that is just the one task I'd have found hard to delegate. Those little bodies to be hugged, those two little people to talk to and  keep close, keep safe. But they were back in the creche on the first Saturday, opened especially by MW for the McCanns.
Extraordinary. I was pretty gob-smacked but that comment in the book that the McCanns actually were obliged to collect the twins themselves! Unbelievable. Their daughter has supposedly been snatched from her bed by an abductor and they are balking at having to pick up the twins from the creche a few days later.

I suppose that having bestowed upon themselves the status of 'Grieving Parents who are Victims of a Terrible Crime' - they felt that any kind of childcare was now well below them. (Although it appears that childcare arrangements were already a pretty low priority for the McCanns. 

After all, being Ambassadors for Missing Children and Experts in Child Abduction, Kate and Gerry had far more important things to do than babysit, or even organize babysitters, imo.

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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by Guest on 31.03.14 20:35

I won't elaborate, but that's one of the things that hit hard: having to get your remaining children a couple of days after the "abduction" out of the creche all by yourself. And write that down in the bewk ... These two cannot be for real ! And I'm sure, we're not the only ones to question KH exhibit 1!
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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by petunia on 31.03.14 21:00

Well what an horrible pair of Grandmothers they seem to be.How uncouth and insensitive to come out with such a statement as it looks like were on the granny train home sue oh how they must have laughed,What they should have been saying is over my dead body are they sending us home sue we are staying here for our son and daughter and above all for our remaining grandchildren.un bleedin believable.

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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by Woofer on 31.03.14 22:11

@Dr What wrote:I suspect that the McCanns breathed a huge sigh of relief when Mrs Fenn passed away and was unable to personally testify in any future proceedings.Any statements that she made at the time can now be discredited.

That is one problem out of the way.

However, I suspect that Mrs Fenn is never far away from Kate Healy.She sees her in every dream or nightmare she has.Looking down at her from her balcony. 

You never know.Maddie might be standing there next to Mrs Fenn.In the dream, of course.

Does a statement made by a person who subsequently died not have any standing?  Surely Mrs. Fenn`s relatives would attest to her credibility.
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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by plebgate on 31.03.14 22:17

@Woofer wrote:
@Dr What wrote:I suspect that the McCanns breathed a huge sigh of relief when Mrs Fenn passed away and was unable to personally testify in any future proceedings.Any statements that she made at the time can now be discredited.

That is one problem out of the way.

However, I suspect that Mrs Fenn is never far away from Kate Healy.She sees her in every dream or nightmare she has.Looking down at her from her balcony. 

You never know.Maddie might be standing there next to Mrs Fenn.In the dream, of course.

Does a statement made by a person who subsequently died not have any standing?  Surely Mrs. Fenn`s relatives would attest to her credibility.
I hope her friend is still alive and can/has already given a statement to the new investigators.

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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by Woofer on 31.03.14 22:22

@plebgate wrote:
@Woofer wrote:
@Dr What wrote:I suspect that the McCanns breathed a huge sigh of relief when Mrs Fenn passed away and was unable to personally testify in any future proceedings.Any statements that she made at the time can now be discredited.

That is one problem out of the way.

However, I suspect that Mrs Fenn is never far away from Kate Healy.She sees her in every dream or nightmare she has.Looking down at her from her balcony. 

You never know.Maddie might be standing there next to Mrs Fenn.In the dream, of course.

Does a statement made by a person who subsequently died not have any standing?  Surely Mrs. Fenn`s relatives would attest to her credibility.
I hope her friend is still alive and can/has already given a statement to the new investigators.
Ah yes, she phoned her friend Edna while the crying was going on ... let`s hope she has given a statement.
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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by j.rob on 31.03.14 22:58

@Mirage wrote:j.rob wrote;

'The McCanns very swiftly dispatched anyone who might hinder their version of events..............'

-------------------------------
j.rob, that opener of yours caught my eye and I immediately recalled the curious dispatching of the grans,  KH made  reference to the incident in KH1. I don't think the grans had been there long when it happened. Anyway, there seemed to have been some disagreement  as far as I recall. EM turned to SH  and said, 'Looks as if we're on the granny express home, Sue.'

How peculiar! You would have thought KH would have wanted her mother by her side, as we all do in times of distress, no matter what our age or relationship. My relationship with my (deceased)  mother was very difficult indeed, but I still have a yearning for her to be with me in times of distress. Even soldiers serving at the Front in WW1 could cry unashamedly for their mothers when in extremis. This IMO, is not a natural response. Not by a long way.
 I agree. I cannot imagine not wanting my mother by my side in such an awful situation. Unfortunately, my mother is no longer in this earthly place either, but I cannot imagine she would have believed the crock of sh** that the McCanns came up with. 

No way! Not for one minute.

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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by Guest on 31.03.14 23:05

I don't think either Mrs Healy believes the pair, as she has "indicated" several times. But what can she do? She's Kate's mother and has trained her to keep up appearances, as she does herself ...
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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by PeterMac on 01.04.14 8:01

Châtelaine wrote:I don't think either Mrs Healy believes the pair,
Do you know of anyone who really "believes" the pair.
By which I mean does not merely say they do, as the Tapas group and CM seem to

I mean really believe.

And if so - which version ?

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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by Guest on 01.04.14 9:50

@j.rob wrote:
@Mirage wrote:j.rob wrote;

'The McCanns very swiftly dispatched anyone who might hinder their version of events..............'

-------------------------------
j.rob, that opener of yours caught my eye and I immediately recalled the curious dispatching of the grans,  KH made  reference to the incident in KH1. I don't think the grans had been there long when it happened. Anyway, there seemed to have been some disagreement  as far as I recall. EM turned to SH  and said, 'Looks as if we're on the granny express home, Sue.'

How peculiar! You would have thought KH would have wanted her mother by her side, as we all do in times of distress, no matter what our age or relationship. My relationship with my (deceased)  mother was very difficult indeed, but I still have a yearning for her to be with me in times of distress. Even soldiers serving at the Front in WW1 could cry unashamedly for their mothers when in extremis. This IMO, is not a natural response. Not by a long way.
 I agree. I cannot imagine not wanting my mother by my side in such an awful situation. Unfortunately, my mother is no longer in this earthly place either, but I cannot imagine she would have believed the crock of sh** that the McCanns came up with. 

No way! Not for one minute.

Ah, but you are seeing this from the perspective of someone with a normal mother.

If your mother is a narcissist, any problem/crisis/trauma you have becomes about her. So having your mother by your side in times of distress is a sure-fire way to make things worse.

From the perspective of the non-narcissist daughter of a narcissist, I wouldn't have wanted my mother there.

Kate being a narcissist herself adds another dimension. She was the star of the event ...the lioness mother ...the martyr etc. so she wouldn't be happy if other family members tried to steal the spotlight.
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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by Guest on 01.04.14 10:01

Kate's mother had been attending the libel trial.
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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by ultimaThule on 01.04.14 10:23

As I recall, Kate's mother attended the libel trial on 3 occasions in the expectation that she'd be called to give evidence for her daughter and son-in-law.  

However, due to an error on the part of their counsel, Isobel Duarte, her journeys were in vain and the world missed out on the spectacle of Ma Healy defending the indefensible.  laughat
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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by Guest on 01.04.14 10:39

@Ladyinred wrote:Kate's mother had been attending the libel trial.

@ultimaThule wrote:As I recall, Kate's mother attended the libel trial on 3 occasions in the expectation that she'd be called to give evidence for her daughter and son-in-law.  

However, due to an error on the part of their counsel, Isobel Duarte, her journeys were in vain and the world missed out on the spectacle of Ma Healy defending the indefensible.  laughat

The McCanns had to give that barrel a good scraping to get their witnesses. Where were the tapas 7? Lorraine Kelly? Qualified professional therapists? etc.etc..
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Re: Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Post by sharonl on 01.04.14 11:58

@Woofer wrote:
@plebgate wrote:
@Woofer wrote:
@Dr What wrote:I suspect that the McCanns breathed a huge sigh of relief when Mrs Fenn passed away and was unable to personally testify in any future proceedings.Any statements that she made at the time can now be discredited.

That is one problem out of the way.

However, I suspect that Mrs Fenn is never far away from Kate Healy.She sees her in every dream or nightmare she has.Looking down at her from her balcony. 

You never know.Maddie might be standing there next to Mrs Fenn.In the dream, of course.

Does a statement made by a person who subsequently died not have any standing?  Surely Mrs. Fenn`s relatives would attest to her credibility.
I hope her friend is still alive and can/has already given a statement to the new investigators.
Ah yes, she phoned her friend Edna while the crying was going on ... let`s hope she has given a statement.

Mrs Fenn made it perfectly clear that the child she heard was not a child of 2 or under but an older child. If She were alive and had the opportunity to testify in person this would be good news for the McCanns as she claims that Madeleine was alive on May 1st and that there were intruders in the area (even though the PJ say that there were no reports of an burglaries). Then we have Niece, Carole Tramner backing up the McCans claim that someone was lurking around the apartments.


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