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The Priests

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Post by Tony Bennett 30.05.20 21:45

PeterMac wrote:There seem to have been quite a lot of Priests involved.
From the Autobiography 
Kate:  "I asked the resort staff if they might be able to find a priest to come and pray with us and support us. I think they tried, but either they couldn’t contact anyone or there was no priest available, so I carried on praying on my own.
"Just after 2am, I spoke to my friend Father Paul Seddon, the priest who had married Gerry and me and baptized Madeleine. He offered me words of comfort and then prayed for our little girl."
So she spoke to him on the phone
Then, because I was looking yet again at The Curious Incident of the Waterslide in the Sunshine, I found another priest.

Friday 4 May. Our first day without Madeleine.
Later that evening, [4/5/7] we were visited by the Anglican minister and his wife who were temporarily serving the Church of England community in Luz until the arrival at the weekend of a new minister from Canada. As the Catholic priest was away on retreat, they had come to offer their support to Gerry, me and our family, which we greatly appreciated. 

and the next day
Saturday 5 May was the day we should have been going home,
That evening the local Catholic priest, Father José Manuel Pacheco, who had returned to Luz, came across to our apartment to introduce himself and offer his support. My first impression was of a very cheery chap. Nothing wrong with that, but at the time his smiling face seemed out of place in the grief-laden atmosphere of our apartment.

But in the side article in 'First Magazine" we read :
The night Madeleine disappeared, [3/5/7] Kate and Gerry telephoned local Anglican priest Father [sic] David Heal, asking him to visit them at their apartment in Praia da Luz.  When he arrived with his wife, 38-year-old Kate threw herself into the priest's arms as she broke down.
It took him almost three hours to comfort Kate . . . blah blah

And Kate' s recollection, seared permanently into her memory by the terrible events, and recorded permanently in her truthful book
 . .they couldn’t contact anyone or there was no priest available.

Just as well he wasn't around on the night, since it was F. Pacheco who reported later
Last night a close friend of the priest told the Daily Express: “Father Jose can’t even hear the Madeleine case mentioned without becoming irate.
“Even his closest friends must tread carefully when dealing with anything connected to the McCanns. When they broach the subject he immediately changes it.
“He says that it is an extremely unpleasant situation and that the McCann family only ever brought him problems. He told one friend they ruined his life.
Another friend said: “All this family brought him were problems. Talking about Madeleine is a sure way to spoil his day. There are two completely different Pachecos, the one before the McCanns and this shell of a man after the McCanns.
“He’s a nervous wreck. He’s hiding secrets that are destroying him.”

And we must never forget the Hubbards
"We had been invited to this lunch by Susan, the wife of Haynes Hubbard, the new Anglican minister in Praia da Luz. The Hubbards had come to Portugal from Canada three days after Madeleine’s abduction and this was the first time I had met Susan.

So to sum up.  On the "night" in question [3/5/7]
EITHER there is no priest available in PdL, so Kate phones a Catholic one (Father Seddon) in the UK and talks to him
OR, an Anglican one, The Rev. D Heal goes round and she hugs him (an RC hugging an Anglican!) for 3 hours, but doesn't mention it to anyone, and it is not witnessed by anyone and appears in none of the available statements or the book


The next night [4/5/7]
An Anglican priest goes round, is not named in the book, but may be The Rev. D Heal, (¿ going back for another 3 hour cuddle ?)

The evening after that [5/5/7] 
A Catholic Priest, Father Pacheco goes round but tries to cheer them up and smiles too much so they destroy his life forever.

The day after that [6/5/7]
A second Anglican Priest appears on the scene, The Rev. H Hubbard, and they don't cuddle him or destroy his life.

Which is nice.

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Very good indeed Peter.

As soon as I saw this thread revived, I thought to myself, "There were FOUR priests". 

But there are serious doubts about Father Heal's account. I can't remember if I ever checked whether there actually WAS a Father Heal. Maybe there is. 

Even if there is, a still more pertinent point is: "Was there ever a First Magazine?"


IIRC I could find no trace of it. The account in First Magazine of Vicky Boyd of her and her son Louie playing football by the pool with Madeleine for an hour and sliding down the waterslide on sunny (ahem) Wednesday was a veritable and very obvious tissue of lies. You have to ask why she would make up such lies - or were they written for her perhaps?

In fact, were the two pages we were shown by the media of this alleged article yet one more fake in this case of fake news?

No magazine. Just two dummy pages!

It would be easy to mock one up.

This was a very clever house of cards they all constructed.

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Dr Martin Roberts: "The evidence is that these are the pjyamas Madeleine wore on holiday in Praia da Luz. They were photographed and the photo handed to a press agency, who released it on 8 May, as the search for Madeleine continued. The McCanns held up these same pyjamas at two press conferences on 5 & 7June 2007. How could Madeleine have been abducted?"

Amelie McCann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".  

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Post by Verdi 31.05.20 1:23

Had the Reverend David Heal and his wife been called to apartment 5a on the night of 3rd/4th May 2007, had proceedings flowed as reported in the article by this 'magazine', the Heals would have been key witnesses to the event. They would have been formally interviewed by the PJ and their witness statements would be included in the investigation files. This is not the case.


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Post by Verdi 31.05.20 1:40

The bare necessities, the only truly believable account in my view..

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The rest is window dressing -  media hype, deception and bearing false witness.  

The Hubbards arrived in Portugal, from Canada, on 6th May 2007,  of the cloth, they and they alone were befriended by the McCanns.

Susan Hubbard returned the church keys.

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The sanctimonious duo hold the key.

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Post by PeterMac 31.05.20 8:07

On the 5th, the theme they talked about was the disappearance and he gave all possible spiritual comfort and they prayed together. They also agreed that the couple would go to the church the following day to attend a mass.



When questioned, he said he never heard their confessions, perhaps because they only spoke English.
He never talked to them alone.


So what language did they use to talk about the disappearance, and in what language did he give spiritual comfort ?
And if they couldn't even communicate, how did they manage to "destroy his life" ?
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Post by Liz Eagles 31.05.20 8:25

At which particular point was there a translator present?

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Post by PeterMac 31.05.20 8:41

Can you confess through a translator ?   Surely at Confession you are speaking direct to God through His representative on earth, and He will understand every word you say . 
[Assuming of course that as an omnipotent being He has not told you what to say it he first place.   Never got my head round that one !]

And having said it you can surely be told to say the requisite number of Hail Marys, or Paternosters, or Rosaries and be forgiven, even if the Human form of the Priest did not actually understand any of it.

Another small point.
If the McCanns did not go to Confession, then they could not receive Absolution and be in a State of Grace, and therefore could not receive Communion.
And if they did, this was very wrong, probably a Sin, and something which they should Confess, but  . . .
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Post by PeterMac 31.05.20 9:03

First Magazine seems to have survived until 2008, when it was still banging on about the McCanns

It was published by EMAP entertainment
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Post by Verdi 31.05.20 14:22

Pacheco said, when interviewed by the PJ and recorded in the PJ files as his witness statement - 'he never heard their confession', whether or not a translator was present is irrelevant.

Remember again, this is not recorded verbatim.

As regards his life being ruined and whatever else, as I said window dressing. Media hype, deception and bearing false witness. I'm very consistent with my distrust of the British media.

The Portugal Resident however. friend of CMOMM..

Praia da Luz priest denies reports in UK newspaper


13th December 2007

By: CECÍLIA PIRES

PRAIA DA Luz church is receiving the image of Our Lady of Fátima on Monday, December 18, in a special visit to the region and this is the reason why ribbons and images of Madeleine McCann have been temporarily removed from its interior, according to father José Manuel Pacheco, the local catholic priest .

Praia da Luz’s community “has not forgotten the little British girl and special prayers are still being held every Friday,” father José Manuel Pacheco told The Resident.

The catholic priest was reacting to reports in the UK’s Daily Express in which he is said to have “ordered the removal of scores of green and yellow ribbons which were put up as a symbol of hope in the days after Madeleine vanished”. The British newspaper quotes a “close friend to the priest” as saying that the latter “can’t even hear the Madeleine case mentioned without becoming irate.” A statement that father José Manuel Pacheco describes as “barbarity” and a “lie”. “I do not know who that ‘friend’ might be, but I doubt such person is my friend”, he told The Resident.

Father José Manuel Pacheco ensures that “priests have no power to order anything in our churches. We have an entity for that, which is the Conselho Pastoral, where the catholic community is represented”.

Church key

With regards to the key to Praia da Luz church that the McCanns were given after Madeleine went missing, so that the couple could pray in privacy, “that was a decision made by the Conselho Pastoral and I only knew about it three days later”.

Father José Manuel Pacheco said: “Madeleine McCann’s parents know that we support them and that is the most important thing. The family kept very close and good relations with the church and its representatives in Praia da Luz”.

Madeleine McCann has now been missing for 225 days and her parents renew appeals every day looking for “that piece of information” that will lead to her being found. In contrast, the police investigation being carried out in Portugal continues to focus on the couple as the main suspects for her probable death.

If you have any information on the whereabouts of Madeleine McCann, please contact the McCann helpline on +34 902 300 213 or the Portuguese Police on +351 282 405 400.

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Post by Verdi 31.05.20 14:31

The Leveson Inquiry

Nick Fagge, journalist responsible for the salacious Express article.

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Post by Liz Eagles 31.05.20 15:04

PeterMac wrote:Can you confess through a translator ?   Surely at Confession you are speaking direct to God through His representative on earth, and He will understand every word you say . 
[Assuming of course that as an omnipotent being He has not told you what to say it he first place.   Never got my head round that one !]

And having said it you can surely be told to say the requisite number of Hail Marys, or Paternosters, or Rosaries and be forgiven, even if the Human form of the Priest did not actually understand any of it.

Another small point.
If the McCanns did not go to Confession, then they could not receive Absolution and be in a State of Grace, and therefore could not receive Communion.
And if they did, this was very wrong, probably a Sin, and something which they should Confess, but  . . .
there's a hole in my bucket Dear Liza
Well fix it dear Pinky, dear Pinky, dear Pinky,

Well fix it dear Pinky, dear Pinky fix it.

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Post by Verdi 19.07.22 13:18

Sorry to say, there's a lot of 'cloak and dagger' mystery surrounding the various 'priests in some way said to have been involved with the McCanns after Madeleine McCann's disappearance - and before in some respects.

The sanctuary of the church and protection of it's apostles within has opened the field to a lot of media speculation and rumour. The church's closed-shop attitude has rendered it nigh on impossible to discover the true relationship between the McCanns and the clergy but that doesn't stop the curious from digging deeper.

For that reason alone, I'm rekindling this thread should members wish to further discuss the role of the clergy in relation to the Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann.

I'll re-launch with this informative translation taken from Joana Morais' blog..

01 July 2009
Thanks to Joana Morais for scans and translations

Two of these articles: 'Maddie's blanket missing from the Ocean Club' (white section spread over two pages) and 'The British priest staged everything' (black section) have been translated and can be found further down this page. The third section (yellow background), has not been translated.

This untranslated article is about a complaint made by Barra da Costa - a former PJ officer now turned TV criminologist - concerning a man who saw Father José Pacheco on TV, at the time of the events in Praia da Luz, and claims to have recognised him from a seminary in Gaia, Oporto. He accuses the priest of sexual abuse.

Barra da Costa achieved notoriety when he wrote a book about the Maddie case, in which he advanced the theory that the holidaying group were swingers. He has also advocated electronic chips for children.

The article was written by António Manuel Pinho, the director of ACED; an association against exclusion and torture, who are helping and promoting Marcos Aragão Correia.

Pinho and Correia have created several reports, most of them against Gonçalo Amaral. The association is very small and operates out of a university department.
~~~~~~~~~~

McCann Case: 'The British priest staged everything' Semanário Privado (appears in paper editon only)

Father José Pacheco

By Emilia Groza
01 July 2009
Thanks to Joana Morais for translation

We went to Praia da Luz to speak with Father José Manuel – the priest of the local church – who accompanied all the sequence of events, lived after the disappearance of the English girl. Refuting all knowledge regarding the whereabouts of the blanket, the Father also denies the insinuations against his past.

Have you participated in all of the British community celebrations?

- In all.

And, specifically, you participated in religious acts for the girl Madeleine. Have you ever noticed the existence of a pink blanket that belonged to the child?

- I participated, but I don't know anything. The British priest, called by Madeleine's parents, it was him who celebrated all the masses. In that context, the only thing that I could do for her was to pray. The other priest is the one who knows a lot – and he staged everything – it was him who made statements and who spoke to the PJ.

But, where could Maddie's blanket be?

- It would be good to know, it's possible that the other priest and the PJ know.

The PJ doesn't know. Does that mean that they have 'lost' the evidence?

- I don't know anything; I only know that, when everything was too 'hot', various stories were told, badly told and even more about me: that I was 'exiled' to the Vatican to speak with the Pope... Just because I missed 2 or three days, I was made an 'exile'.

Was it normal to hand out the church keys?

- It's not me who decides. [silence]

There are some who have accused you of, when you where at the Gaia Seminary, of having participated in acts of harassment and sexual abuse.

- It's all a lie; the media have nothing else to do. It is easy to attack the image of a priest. But, at this moment the defamers are being sued.
~~~~~~~~~~

Maddie's blanket missing from the Ocean Club Semanário Privado (appears in paper editon only)

Maddie's missing pink blanket

01 July 2009
Thanks to Joana Morais for translation

Could it have been used in a funeral ceremony at the Luz chapel? Gonçalo Amaral doesn't dismiss that as a possibility.

The issue was brought to light, in an enigmatic approach, during the interview given by the McCann couple to Oprah Winfrey. What had happened to the blanket that Maddie used to be covered with – almost as if it was a protective and comforting safeguard – and that was photographed by the PJ, on the day of her disappearance from the Ocean Club apartment, on the bed of the English girl? Gerry and Kate gulped in silence and were unable to answer in a consistent manner to the media TV show host.

Gonçalo Amaral, the former inspector who coordinated the investigations on the case, in declarations to "SP" recalls having seen the blanket in the Ocean Club apartment, on the evening of the 3rd of May, close to cuddle cat (the plush toy), that the child usually carried with her. The former inspector thought that it was odd that that blanket went missing in the immediate days that followed, when searches where made to locate the child. And he highlights, that incidentally, textile fibres (in connection with the cadaver odour scented by the British dogs) were detected in the Renault Scenic that the McCann couple rented in the Algarve and which was used in a long and mysterious trip that they made to Spain.

As a result of the investigations that have been made on his own account, after he was removed from the case, Gonçalo Amaral does not dismiss the possibility that the said blanket was used as a funeral blanket in a secret funeral ceremony made in the church of Luz, sustaining that conclusions drawn from the depositions of sources that he believes to be credible; between them, the one of Father José Manuel Pacheco from the Luz chapel.

Still according to the former inspector, the Catholic Church knows about that secret which might be, supposedly, known to high positioned figures inside the clergy. In fact, one poorly clarified point in this strange story is the fact that the couple had access to the church keys, which were handed to them by the Anglican priest, who has justified that fact with the necessity of praying for their daughter, away of the media spotlights.

Gonçalo Amaral sustains that the key to the discovery of Maddie's disappearance is in the Village of Luz and that, if this new clue is duly followed by the authorities, it may become decisive in unravelling the mystery.

Paulo Sargento: "Public Ministry Cannot Dismiss the Blanket's Disappearance"

Paulo Sargento, the psychologist who usually comments on the TV on aspects related to the Maddie case, explained to "SP" the importance that this blanket had to the British child : "The blankets, toys, and other objects acquire a special meaning for children at early stages of their lives. Dr. Winnicot, a famous paediatrician, conceived a designation of transitional objects (most times, plush toys, small blankets, diapers, etc...) which attain some special characteristics to children. As I have been saying, these objects that the paediatrician adjectived of transitional, are invested of a particular passion by the children, even some addiction (in the sense of affective dependency), since they possess symbolic characteristics of security, comfort, care and other qualities which emanate from the maternal figure."

For Paulo Sargento, the thesis that Gonçalo Amaral revealed at first hand to "SP" that the blanket could have been used in a funeral ceremony at the Luz chapel "is very interesting".

And he adds: "In reality, when the McCanns went to Oprah's Show, the blanket was mentioned. At a given moment, when Oprah tells Kate that she heard her mention a blanket several times, Kate argued that a mother who misses a child always wants to know if she is comfortable, if she is warm, and added, referring to Maddie, that sometimes she asked herself if the person who had taken her would cover her up with her little blanket (but the blanket was on the bed after Maddie, supposedly, disappeared!!!).

Well, that blanket is missing. Nobody knows where it is. But, this brief dialogue between Oprah and Kate is bizarre and looks like a slip. It seems that blanket is a word that shouldn't have emerged under that circumstance because it didn't find a meaning that would fit into the conversation, and the justification was very confusing".

For Paulo Sargento, this piece of data should have been investigated without any prejudice, taking into view the possibility of someone within the Church keeping a prudent silence about the matter: "The Catholic Church follows a divine saying, that is sometimes applied to Zeno of Cyprus: "If God gave us two ears and one mouth, it was because we are meant to listen twice as much as we talk.

"The Catholic Church has had the capacity to remain silent, to keep secrets and to transform them into myths." The psychologist has no doubts: "The disappearance of one object from the frame of a crime scene cannot be dismissed this lightly. The decisions lie in the hands of the Prosecutor and the Public Ministry."

*

Note: At no point in the Oprah Show does Kate McCann refer to the blanket. The exchange that takes place is:

Oprah: "Well, I, you know, I'd read something that said there were times even, you know, early on after she, errr... went missing that you would say: 'I want... I hope that whoever has her gives her her blanket'; 'I hope that whoever has her is keeping her warm'; 'I hope that whoever has her...'"

Kate: "I mean, it's funny, it's, you know, I mean... as a mum it's things like that you worry about, as well, you know. Is someone brushing her teeth? Is someone rubbing her tummy when she's not feeling well? You know, it's... it's all those things, that as a mother, you know, you do and you should be doing and..."

However, reference is made to a blanket in The People article of 13 May 2007:

'Last night Kate arrived for Mass clutching a blanket from her missing daughter's bed. She was wearing shorts and a yellow top and held Maddie's Cuddle Cat tightly as she held her husband's hand.'

However, upon closer research, this appears to be a thin white shirt/jacket rather than a blanket taken from the bed. In short, a piece of creative journalistic imagination, or guesswork.

In addition, the clothes described by The People were worn during the day. For the night mass, Kate wore a dark skirt, green t-shirt and the white jacket that The People referred to as a blanket.
~~~~~~~~~~


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Post by Verdi 19.07.22 13:25

Saturday 5th May 2007

That evening the local Catholic priest, Father José Manuel Pacheco, who had returned to Luz, came across to our apartment to introduce himself and offer his support. My first impression was of a very cheery chap. Nothing wrong with that, but at the time his smiling face seemed out of place in the grief-laden atmosphere of our apartment.

Kate McCann

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Post by Verdi 19.07.22 13:30

Sunday 6th May 2007

>>> The next day, 6 May, was Sunday, and despite my fragility I was determined to go to Mass. The discovery that it was also Mothers’ Day in Portugal made it even more relevant and important. From the moment Madeleine had gone, I’d turned instinctively to God and to Mary, feeling a deep need to pray, and to get as many other people as possible to pray, too

>>> I felt desensitized to everything around me. Nothing except Madeleine seemed to matter any more. I could see, in an abstract way, that the simple church, painted yellow and white, was beautiful. That first Sunday its beauty didn’t reach my heart, but in the following weeks I would grow to love Nossa Senhora da Luz and it would become a precious sanctuary for me.

>>> The little church was very full that day. Even though we were sitting at the front when Father José – or Padre Zé, as he was known locally – appeared, it took us a while to work out at which point the Mass actually started. One of the local ladies got up and adjusted his robes, giving him a bit of a dust-down, almost as if he was an untidy schoolboy. It was all quite different from Mass at home. I heard Michael comment, ‘This is pleasantly chaotic!’ There was something very human and loving about the lack of formality. Padre Zé, whose jolly demeanour had seemed so at odds with our distress the previous evening, was in his element here. He was certainly a character, full of life and passion.

Kate McCann

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Post by Verdi 19.07.22 13:33

Please God, this appeal would reach somebody who knew something.

I’m not entirely sure how Gerry managed to deliver a statement on that first day, or exactly what made him feel that he must. Obviously he believed that begging the abductor to give Madeleine back, and urging anyone who might have seen or know anything to come forward, could only help. He was also aware that in the UK it would probably be expected of parents in our situation to make some kind of statement or appeal – though that was not, as we would learn, the case in Portugal.

Later that evening, we were visited by the Anglican minister and his wife who were temporarily serving the Church of England community in Luz until the arrival at the weekend of a new minister from Canada. As the Catholic priest was away on retreat, they had come to offer their support to Gerry, me and our family, which we greatly appreciated. They said some prayers with us and I remember the minister reading out the passage in St Mark’s gospel which begins: ‘Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God,’ which took me back to my own childhood.

Kate McCann

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Post by Verdi 19.07.22 13:35

Tuesday 8th May 2007

We had been given a key to the church so that we could go there and pray whenever we wished. We cherished these little oases of relative peace and solitude.

Kate McCann

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Post by crusader 19.07.22 16:50

The thing here is, if Madeleine was indeed cremated or her little body was buried somewhere in or near the church, there would not be any blood or cadaver odour in the car would there.

Well there could be cadaver odour, as Martin Grime said, cadaver transfer odour.
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Post by Verdi 19.07.22 17:15

Well there could be cadaver odour, as Martin Grime said, cadaver transfer odour.

That's always been the most likely explanation - in my view.

That aside, I don't necessarily suggest a body was cremated or buried in the vicinity of the Luz church - only temporarily stored.

I don't believe Gonçalo Amaral has ever said a specific theory is set in stone, rather he considers all possibilities (and even unlikely) using evidence as a template, ruled out one by one if no evidence supports a particular theory.

Dr Amaral was removed from the case, so ....

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Post by Milo 20.07.22 8:59

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]: Pachecos, the one before the McCanns and this shell of a man after the McCanns. He is a nervous wreck.” (Did Hubbard replace him?)

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]Hubbard could not have replaced Pacheco because Pacheco was a Catholic and and Hubbard was obviously not a Catholic because there was a Mrs Hubbard. He was an Anglican (then called Church of England). Mrs Hubbard became friends with Kate. I think the Hubbards arrived in Praia da Luz after "the abduction". 


I am persuaded by the PFI scenario more so than the wife-swapping story. After all the PFI was about money, and nobody liked money (and fame) like Gerry. And it fits with Gerry's comment on the bus that he was not there for fun. 


As for the disintegration of Pacheco, either he felt stupid/naive for believing that the McCanns had become terribly religious overnight and handing out the key, which, as it turned out, might have been a significant contribution to evidence against he McCanns, and/or Pacheco was given a lashing by Rome. But what evidence and why the lashing? Whatever it was, it seems to be related to the Vatican removing all mention of the McCanns from its website (or other social media). Contrary to the spiel from the McCanns and their side-kick Clarence from the office of the PM (of the UK) that they were received by the Pope (as in an audience), they were actually just another ordinary couple in the ordinary line of people who lined up to greet him. He certainly didn't treat them as special. I am not sure at which stage he was aware of who they were. It may have been when they shoved a photo of Madeleine in front of him.


I believe there is a link between the church/keys/Pacheco/Hubbard and the Vatican's removal of references to the McCanns and the hypothesis that Pacheco was destroyed because of what he considered to be unfair treatment from Rome or was devastated because he had been conned by the McCanns. Remember the McCanns had set up their bona fide as practicing Catholics on the night of the "abduction" (calling for a priest, sort of, although Fr P was not aware of the request until that night. The McCanns contacted Fr P days later. 


What a pity the full story of the McCanns, a Catholic priest, an Anglican priest, and the wife of the latter, is unknown. Does anybody know a cardinal or two in Rome? Does anybody know a bishop or two in England? If so, tell them we want more information!!!


Btw, I am not persuaded by the view of some in this forum who believe that Madeleine was "cremated" with a person who had been "lying in state" one night. But it might not be so bizarre if it goes to explaining why Fr P was lashed or conned.


Verdi, I understand that this part of the Madeleine story has already been discussed in this forum but some of may not have been so interested in the story of the keys at that stage. 


Apologies for the odd typo. And please let me know of any factual errors in my response. I write these responses from memory - that is my feeble excuse for such errors.
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Post by Milo 20.07.22 9:57

I don't get it. Why would you leave a Bible open in your room? It reportedly happened with the Ramsays (parents of Jon Benet) as well as the McCanns.
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Post by Milo 20.07.22 10:22

Verdi wrote:Tuesday 8th May 2007

We had been given a key to the church so that we could go there and pray whenever we wished. We cherished these little oases of relative peace and solitude.

Kate McCann
I am still not sure who gave them the keys to the church. Kate uses the passive "we had been given...". Others write about Priest A giving permission to Priest B to do so. I had assumed that the Catholic priest made the rules because it was a Catholic church. 

But Fr P was away on retreat. There was no locum. 
Hubbard was a temp. He was replaced by a new priest from Canada. (The C of E is a broad church!)
Mrs Hubbard befriended Kate. 

One source of confusion about priests and keys and bibles and prayers and various utterances of Gerry and Kate and the two or three priests is the distinction between Anglicans and Catholics.  It was interesting to note how immersed Kate was in the religion of her childhood, especially since her mother or grandmother told us that Kate was not religious. Unlike Kate, I would not be alert enough to recall a passage from the Bible from my childhood on the night my child disappeared. I might have said a spontaneous prayer, not one from the Book of Common Prayer. And, anyway, why would you bother to write about her childhood bible readings.. because you wanted to impress on people that you were a holy joe. Why? There is something fishy about her references to bibles and prayers. She is trying too hard.
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Post by Verdi 20.07.22 13:03

Milo @ [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] up-page ^^^

I think we've got our wires crossed.

I purposely resurrected 'The Priests' thread because I consider it to be of interest and worthy of further thought.

It's the John Geraghty thread that's defunct, hence I've moved your [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] post over here - where it belongs thumbup .

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Post by Verdi 20.07.22 14:20

Milo wrote:I am persuaded by the PFI scenario


Excuse my hignorance - what is the PFI scenario?  I've tried to work it out but i don\'t know

Seriously, I'm rubbish with acronyms  roll .

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Post by Verdi 20.07.22 17:09

Milo wrote:I am still not sure who gave them the keys to the church. Kate uses the passive "we had been given...". Others write about Priest A giving permission to Priest B to do so. I had assumed that the Catholic priest made the rules because it was a Catholic church.

I'm not saying this is the answer, it's from a media source but I like to think a more reliable media source than the British press. It was previously posted up-thread..

Father José Manuel Pacheco ensures that “priests have no power to order anything in our churches. We have an entity for that, which is the Conselho Pastoral, where the catholic community is represented”.

Church key

With regards to the key to Praia da Luz church that the McCanns were given after Madeleine went missing, so that the couple could pray in privacy, “that was a decision made by the Conselho Pastoral and I only knew about it three days later”.

Father José Manuel Pacheco said: “Madeleine McCann’s parents know that we support them and that is the most important thing. The family kept very close and good relations with the church and its representatives in Praia da Luz”.

Madeleine McCann has now been missing for 225 days and her parents renew appeals every day looking for “that piece of information” that will lead to her being found. In contrast, the police investigation being carried out in Portugal continues to focus on the couple as the main suspects for her probable death.

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Post by Cammerigal 22.07.22 0:08

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] You make an important differentiation between Roman Catholic and Anglicanism [Church of England] on this case. As usual, ambiguity and contradiction is at play here. I have tried to provide a simple summary form of argument below, but there are always outliers.

Kate McCann was brought up a Roman Catholic, in Liverpool. Likewise Gerry McCann, born in Ireland and brought up in Glasgow, Scotland from a staunch republican family. Both would be Christened, baptized and and then married in RC churches, by a celibate RC priest. Maddy was of course RC, like her siblings still are.  .https://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/PRIESTS.htm

Upthread, [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]refers to a padre. This is the particular British army term for an ordained Anglican vicar in the service of the British military, who would minister to the soldiers needs of all denominations. They would need to understand RC services and rituals eg for British army Catholics.

The Anglican  Reverend Haynes Hubbard, married to Susan Hubbard and based in Canada was flown in at short notice to PdL, to 'help' them. Despite this support from a Reverend padre, the McCanns went to see the Pope  [Head of the RC church] in Rome to seek his blessings. A true Anglican would not need this. 

Catholics do not favour cremation. Their dead should be respectfully buried with funeral rites, spoken via a priest [or Padre, for a British RC serviceman] NB Ashes would not kept in small urns in the home. So from a religious perspective, we should search for a burial site, where funeral ritual could be correctly performed for Maddy, as per the McCann family Catholic faith.

On a final note, as MI5 are involved, then to paraphrase them;
Q; 'where do you hide a dead body?' 
A; 'in a cemetery, with all the other dead bodies'
I therefore cannot support cremation theories.
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Post by Verdi 22.07.22 1:39

Cammerigal wrote:You make an important differentiation between Roman Catholic and Anglicanism [Church of England] on this case.

The issue here is the Luz church in question. It seemed to cater for all denominations of christianity - without a reasonable explanation as to why, the matter remains shrouded in mystery.

Cammerigal wrote:The Anglican Reverend Haynes Hubbard, married to Susan Hubbard and based in Canada was flown in at short notice to PdL, to 'help' them.

I disagree, I don't think there is any evidence to suggest the Hubbard's were summoned to Luz to 'help' the McCanns. It's another one of those tenuous areas that's gained traction through social media.

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