Re: The Priests

by Carrry On Doctor 23.07.15 17:46

Richard IV wrote:@ lj "The reason they turned to the Anglican priests? The catholic church is the only church that does confessions. I assume that the catholic church there is the same as here in South US/North Mexico: you cannot go to communion unless you confessed. Maybe they just had enough decency to not lie in a confession, and avoided the whole thing by going to the Anglican services and turning to the Anglican priests.

You could be right, especially as Father Pacheco never heard their confessions, supposedly because they only spoke English but going from his statement, he seems to have communicated well enough with them at other times. Could that have been why he felt so deceived by them.

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In red above....

TextUSA seems to think that Fr Pacheco DID hear their confessions, and the burden of this haunted him.

I cant clarify whether Fr Pacheco did hear the confession or not, but in Catholic confession your sin is effectively forgiven....the priest uses the words 'I absolve you from your sins', irrespective of seriousness. If true to his vocation, Fr Pacheco has no choice but to take this to the grave.

I think a confession to Fr Pacheco is extremely likely and is a very significant event for TM's going forward. Psychologically, this would be a huge monkey off their backs, and Fr Pacheco wouldn't be needed after that, so they can maintain their saintliness in the limelight with another any other member of the cloth who happens to come along.

Post confession K&G would have a clean soul, and they are now only doing what's best in the interests of the twins, which is to protect them from scandal. I think this could well be their mindset and justification that keeps them going. Oh, and of course, Gerry always has to win, just like his hero Lance, irrespective of the casualties....He cant help it, he's just a born winner, what a great guy !

In my opinion.

by tinkier 23.07.15 19:07

Carrry On Doctor wrote:
Richard IV wrote:@ lj "The reason they turned to the Anglican priests? The catholic church is the only church that does confessions. I assume that the catholic church there is the same as here in South US/North Mexico: you cannot go to communion unless you confessed. Maybe they just had enough decency to not lie in a confession, and avoided the whole thing by going to the Anglican services and turning to the Anglican priests.

You could be right, especially as Father Pacheco never heard their confessions, supposedly because they only spoke English but going from his statement, he seems to have communicated well enough with them at other times. Could that have been why he felt so deceived by them.

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In red above....

TextUSA seems to think that Fr Pacheco DID hear their confessions, and the burden of this haunted him.

I cant clarify whether Fr Pacheco did hear the confession or not, but in Catholic confession your sin is effectively forgiven....the priest uses the words 'I absolve you from your sins', irrespective of seriousness. If true to his vocation, Fr Pacheco has no choice but to take this to the grave.

I think a confession to Fr Pacheco is extremely likely and is a very significant event for TM's going forward. Psychologically, this would be a huge monkey off their backs, and Fr Pacheco wouldn't be needed after that, so they can maintain their saintliness in the limelight with another any other member of the cloth who happens to come along.

Post confession K&G would have a clean soul, and they are now only doing what's best in the interests of the twins, which is to protect them from scandal. I think this could well be their mindset and justification that keeps them going. Oh, and of course, Gerry always has to win, just like his hero Lance, irrespective of the casualties....He cant help it, he's just a born winner, what a great guy !

In my opinion.

In Bold above.

Do you think that is reason why Tony Blair converted to Catholicism in 2007, 6 months after resigning as Prime Minister? Sorry off topic!

by Carrry On Doctor 23.07.15 19:51

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I don't think so, TB waited until he stood down as PM since current constitutional rules make the appointment of a Catholic PM very difficult.

Cherie Blair has always been a practising Catholic and the children were all brought up as Catholic, so I believe he did it for family reasons as soon as was practicable.

IMO

by tinkier 23.07.15 22:30

Carrry On Doctor wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I don't think so, TB waited until he stood down as PM since current constitutional rules make the appointment of a Catholic PM very difficult.

Cherie Blair has always been a practising Catholic and the children were all brought up as Catholic, so I believe he did it for family reasons as soon as was practicable.

IMO

Apologies, i was being rather cynical.

by Richard IV 23.07.15 22:41

skyrocket wrote:Just found this re: HQH - he was married before 6 Oct 1997.

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INSIGHT: WYCLIFFE COLLEGE

December 1997, No. 43, Online Edition

Alumni/ae News

Rev. Haynes Hubbard, W95, and his wife Sue are now the proud parents of Sebastian Aidan Haynes Hubbard, born October 6, 1997.

That`s a mystery, unless he got married to someone else. But it clearly states he got married on 4th July 2008 on his Facebook page. I would reproduce it here but not sure if it`s allowed. Can some other Facebook member corroborate this for me. Ta.

by Richard IV 23.07.15 22:51

Carrry On Doctor wrote:
Richard IV wrote:@ lj "The reason they turned to the Anglican priests? The catholic church is the only church that does confessions. I assume that the catholic church there is the same as here in South US/North Mexico: you cannot go to communion unless you confessed. Maybe they just had enough decency to not lie in a confession, and avoided the whole thing by going to the Anglican services and turning to the Anglican priests.

You could be right, especially as Father Pacheco never heard their confessions, supposedly because they only spoke English but going from his statement, he seems to have communicated well enough with them at other times. Could that have been why he felt so deceived by them.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

In red above....

TextUSA seems to think that Fr Pacheco DID hear their confessions, and the burden of this haunted him.

I cant clarify whether Fr Pacheco did hear the confession or not, but in Catholic confession your sin is effectively forgiven....the priest uses the words 'I absolve you from your sins', irrespective of seriousness. If true to his vocation, Fr Pacheco has no choice but to take this to the grave.

I think a confession to Fr Pacheco is extremely likely and is a very significant event for TM's going forward. Psychologically, this would be a huge monkey off their backs, and Fr Pacheco wouldn't be needed after that, so they can maintain their saintliness in the limelight with another any other member of the cloth who happens to come along.

Post confession K&G would have a clean soul, and they are now only doing what's best in the interests of the twins, which is to protect them from scandal. I think this could well be their mindset and justification that keeps them going. Oh, and of course, Gerry always has to win, just like his hero Lance, irrespective of the casualties....He cant help it, he's just a born winner, what a great guy !

In my opinion.

Interesting, but I don`t think we`ll ever be sure unless Father Pacheco gives evidence and I don`t think priests can break a confidence, even to a court of law (not sure about this).

I find it hard to believe that Catholics can just commit a crime, even be involved in a child`s disappearance or death, and they are absolved of all guilt just because they confess it to a priest. How can a person ever become indivuated and a responsible adult if someone happens to tell them to just say 3 hail marys and all`s forgotten. Totally immoral if you ask me. Does this really happen?

Nick Fagge`s article in Daily Express 20.10.2007 about Father Pacheco
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by missbeetle 24.07.15 3:13

For reference, Fr Heal's entry in Crockford's Clerical Directory 2010-2011 :

Heal, David Walter b 37

Ox Univ MA 63. Trin Coll Carmarthen 87.

d 90 p 91. NSM Henfynyw w Aberaeon and Llandewi Aberarth St D 90-96;

Hon Asst Chapl Algarve EUR 96-98, Chapl Madeira 98-03; rtd 03;

Perm to Offic St D from 04.

(the rest is his address in Wales)

by skyrocket 24.07.15 7:51

@ Richard IV

I can vouch for the entry on Facebook - it is odd. If it were, as someone else mentioned, just the date HQH entered that he was actually married (rather than the date of the marriage) you would have thought a man in his line of work would have corrected it. But it may jut be that. Weren't the Hubbards (both) in the Algarve for 5 years after MBM went missing? Can't see how it was divorce and another marriage in 2008. Either the facebook entry is wrong or they were not actually married originally - another little mystery. Perhaps someone can come up with marriage details. When I've a bit more time I'll check back thru the years of the Alumni notices - might be an announcement in there.

by missbeetle 24.07.15 12:18

I'd still be keen to find out if Haynes Hubbard has had his middle name corrected -

in Crockford's 2010-2011 it differed from that given on his birth records -

(I can't remember which way it went, but it'll be on the HQH 5th Anniversary thread)

and if anyone is able to, would they mind please checking out the latest edition's moniker for him?

I agree old Haynes-Baby looks a lot like Mrs Susan Healy -

- if I were told he was Kate's brother I wouldn't be surprised, either.

Hello Skyrocket - I would put HQH's often youthful looks down to plumpness...!

If Fr Pacheco was English, I would find his dress sense all manner of peculiar -

(but I know nothing of Portuguese men)

- and the comparison to Kenny Everett's a bit of a stiff one...

...but I've always thought of him as a fundamentally decent guy.

Whereas I find Fr Haynes Quinten/Quintin/Quinton Hubbard as hinky as you get.

My opinion only.

by Honeyblade 24.07.15 12:28

Only a little addition but my son is an Anglican priest in training
He tells me two things that may or may not be of interest
One according to high Anglican tradition ... Bells & smells but no Pope or immortal Virgin Mary .. Priests in charge are called father & in churches that survived prior to 1662 they can be called cardinal rectors this is certainly case within city of London ..
He also told me & this I found fascinating anything said under the seal of confessional is sacrosanct but the priest hearing a 'bad 'confession like admission of murder or child abuse rape etc is DUTY bound to pass it on to his superior where it stops being sacrosanct and although he could not reveal source a superior might be able guide authorities in the persons direction should they wish to or make sure it WASNT guided in authorities direction
May explain influx of various priests ofcourse only my opinion

by **tigger** 24.07.15 12:30

It's not just that the Hubbards arrived so very serendipitously (Hmm is this a word?) it's the 'Father' Hubbard so eminently suitable to further expecially Kate's journey to sainthood. He even said that 'when he came into the presence of the McCanns..etc. (from the radio interview) he was totally convinced of their innocence or whatever.

Moreover, the frequent publication of Kate being blessed by the Rev. Hubbard. Kate with her ponytail and little girl tops, Hubbard in virginal white, all surrounded by light doesn't ring true to me.

by missbeetle 24.07.15 12:31

Fascinating stuff, Honeyblade - thank you.

by lj 24.07.15 14:51

tigger wrote:It's not just that the Hubbards arrived so very serendipitously (Hmm is this a word?) it's the 'Father' Hubbard so eminently suitable to further expecially Kate's journey to sainthood. He even said that 'when he came into the presence of the McCanns..etc. (from the radio interview) he was totally convinced of their innocence or whatever.

Moreover, the frequent publication of Kate being blessed by the Rev. Hubbard. Kate with her ponytail and little girl tops, Hubbard in virginal white, all surrounded by light doesn't ring true to me.

Yeah, PR in the most disgusting form.

by Joss 24.07.15 15:06

I personally think the whole religious spin on things in this case was a PR stunt, all the way from the pope to the priests involved. And K.McC trying to look all innocent and childish in her pigtails and ribbons, gmafb. And if they did confess of their involvement to Fr. Pacheco in what happened to Maddie, it definitely should of been relayed to the investigators through whatever channels necessary, IMO.

by tinkier 24.07.15 15:49

lj wrote:
tigger wrote:It's not just that the Hubbards arrived so very serendipitously (Hmm is this a word?) it's the 'Father' Hubbard so eminently suitable to further expecially Kate's journey to sainthood. He even said that 'when he came into the presence of the McCanns..etc. (from the radio interview) he was totally convinced of their innocence or whatever.

Moreover, the frequent publication of Kate being blessed by the Rev. Hubbard. Kate with her ponytail and little girl tops, Hubbard in virginal white, all surrounded by light doesn't ring true to me.
Yeah, PR in the most disgusting form.

Devine intervention?………The Hubbards now believe Madeleine's disappearance is the reason they were "called" to Portugal. Susan Hubbard remembers the moment it hit her. 'It wasn't until months after when I saw what really brought us here that I was awestruck that he confirmed we were to be here before we even set foot in "our" town of Praia de Luz, she says "for me, he confirmed it on the plane, the fact that there was a child missing here gave us out first mission before we set foot in the place".
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by lj 24.07.15 17:12

tinkier wrote:
lj wrote:
tigger wrote:It's not just that the Hubbards arrived so very serendipitously (Hmm is this a word?) it's the 'Father' Hubbard so eminently suitable to further expecially Kate's journey to sainthood. He even said that 'when he came into the presence of the McCanns..etc. (from the radio interview) he was totally convinced of their innocence or whatever.

Moreover, the frequent publication of Kate being blessed by the Rev. Hubbard. Kate with her ponytail and little girl tops, Hubbard in virginal white, all surrounded by light doesn't ring true to me.
Yeah, PR in the most disgusting form.
Devine intervention?………The Hubbards now believe Madeleine's disappearance is the reason they were "called" to Portugal. Susan Hubbard remembers the moment it hit her. 'It wasn't until months after when I saw what really brought us here that I was awestruck that he confirmed we were to be here before we even set foot in "our" town of Praia de Luz, she says "for me, he confirmed it on the plane, the fact that there was a child missing here gave us out first mission before we set foot in the place".
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The effing arrogance to state they were send by God to help in this case.

by Richard IV 24.07.15 17:22

Honeyblade wrote:Only a little addition but my son is an Anglican priest in training
He tells me two things that may or may not be of interest
One according to high Anglican tradition ... Bells & smells but no Pope or immortal Virgin Mary .. Priests in charge are called father & in churches that survived prior to 1662 they can be called cardinal rectors this is certainly case within city of London ..
He also told me & this I found fascinating anything said under the seal of confessional is sacrosanct but the priest hearing a 'bad 'confession like admission of murder or child abuse rape etc is DUTY bound to pass it on to his superior where it stops being sacrosanct and although he could not reveal source a superior might be able guide authorities in the persons direction should they wish to or make sure it WASNT guided in authorities direction
May explain influx of various priests ofcourse only my opinion

Thanks Honeyblade. That doesn`t surprise me. So it would be Father Pacheco`s Bishop who would decide what to do with such information.

by Liz Eagles 24.07.15 18:02

Does anyone think that there was a confession made to any priest in PDL, let alone anywhere else? I know I don't.

The whole religious angle was an exploitative PR exercise imo.

by ryanm 24.07.15 18:07

aquila wrote:Does anyone think that there was a confession made to any priest in PDL, let alone anywhere else? I know I don't.

No. If I’m catholic and I commit a crime and I go to the priest for absolution I must show (and know) that I’m truly sorry for what I’ve done. I must be able to communicate it to the priest and he must be able to communicate the terms of my penance to me. For those reasons possibility of absolution is be remote where there’s a language barrier.
For a crime my penance will most likely entail coming clean with the authorities and in certainty not lying to the public about it or making money from it. The priest may indicate forgiveness but it’s null and void if I don’t stick to the terms of the penance. I will already know the possible terms before I go to confession so it’s a pointless task if I don’t intend carrying the penance out. I think the priest and church were needed for other reasons.

by Joss 24.07.15 18:30

McCann Case: 'The British Priest Staged Everything'

1 July 2009 | Posted by Joana Morais Leave a Comment
We went to Praia da Luz to speak with Father José Manuel – the priest of the local church – who accompanied all the sequence of events, lived after the disappearance of the English girl. Refuting all knowledge regarding the whereabouts of the blanket, the Father also denies the insinuations against his past.

Have you participated in all of the British community celebrations?
-In all.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]And, specifically, you participated in religious acts for the girl Madeleine. Have you ever noticed in the existence of a pink blanket that belonged to the child?
- I participated, but I don’t know anything. The British priest, called by Madeleine parents, it was him who celebrated all the masses. In that context, the only thing that I could do for her was to pray. The other priest is the one who knows a lot – and he staged everything – it was him who made statements and who spoke to the PJ.

But, where could Maddie’s blanket be?
-It would be good to know, it’s possible that the other priest and the PJ know.
The PJ doesn’t know. Does that mean that they have ‘lost’ the evidence?
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]- I don’t know anything; I only know that, when everything was too ‘hot’, various stories were told, badly told and even more about me: that I was ‘exiled’ to the Vatican to speak with the Pope… Just because I missed 2 or three days, I was made an ‘exiled’.

Was it normal to hand out the church keys?
- It’s not me who decides. [silence]

There are some who have accused you of, when you where at the Gaia Seminary, having participated in act of harassment and sexual abuse.
- It’s all a lie; the media have nothing else to do. It is easy to attack the image of a priest. But, at this moment the defamers are being sued.
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by Joss 24.07.15 18:38

aquila wrote:Does anyone think that there was a confession made to any priest in PDL, let alone anywhere else? I know I don't.

The whole religious angle was an exploitative PR exercise imo.

Probably not, but why was Father Pacheco upset enough with the McCann's to feel he was deceived by them?

by lj 24.07.15 18:43

aquila wrote:Does anyone think that there was a confession made to any priest in PDL, let alone anywhere else? I know I don't.

The whole religious angle was an exploitative PR exercise imo.

I agree.

by lj 24.07.15 18:52

ryanm wrote:
aquila wrote:Does anyone think that there was a confession made to any priest in PDL, let alone anywhere else? I know I don't.

No. If I’m catholic and I commit a crime and I go to the priest for absolution I must show (and know) that I’m truly sorry for what I’ve done. I must be able to communicate it to the priest and he must be able to communicate the terms of my penance to me. For those reasons possibility of absolution is be remote where there’s a language barrier.
For a crime my penance will most likely entail coming clean with the authorities and in certainty not lying to the public about it or making money from it. The priest may indicate forgiveness but it’s null and void if I don’t stick to the terms of the penance. I will already know the possible terms before I go to confession so it’s a pointless task if I don’t intend carrying the penance out. I think the priest and church were needed for other reasons.

I'm not catholic, but that's how I understand it.

Again if they are the same as the catholicism's around here (Northern Mexico, very catholic) than they could not go to communion without going to confession. Maybe the church would let it slip in the beginning once or twice, but after that the priest would ask: have you gone to confession? That's when the catholic pandering stopped I think. It would have been bloody obvious if they did not go to communion. I think they just did not dare to lie in a confession, not because they still have some decency, just because they grew up fearing the wrath of God, and that is hard to shake.

by Nina 24.07.15 23:36

Richard IV wrote:
Honeyblade wrote:Only a little addition but my son is an Anglican priest in training
He tells me two things that may or may not be of interest
One according to high Anglican tradition ... Bells & smells but no Pope or immortal Virgin Mary .. Priests in charge are called father & in churches that survived prior to 1662 they can be called cardinal rectors this is certainly case within city of London ..
He also told me & this I found fascinating anything said under the seal of confessional is sacrosanct but the priest hearing a 'bad 'confession like admission of murder or child abuse rape etc is DUTY bound to pass it on to his superior where it stops being sacrosanct and although he could not reveal source a superior might be able guide authorities in the persons direction should they wish to or make sure it WASNT guided in authorities direction
May explain influx of various priests ofcourse only my opinion

Thanks Honeyblade. That doesn`t surprise me. So it would be Father Pacheco`s Bishop who would decide what to do with such information.

Was it this Bishop who was angry they were given the keys to the church?
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by tinkier 24.07.15 23:58

Nina wrote:
Richard IV wrote:
Honeyblade wrote:Only a little addition but my son is an Anglican priest in training
He tells me two things that may or may not be of interest
One according to high Anglican tradition ... Bells & smells but no Pope or immortal Virgin Mary .. Priests in charge are called father & in churches that survived prior to 1662 they can be called cardinal rectors this is certainly case within city of London ..
He also told me & this I found fascinating anything said under the seal of confessional is sacrosanct but the priest hearing a 'bad 'confession like admission of murder or child abuse rape etc is DUTY bound to pass it on to his superior where it stops being sacrosanct and although he could not reveal source a superior might be able guide authorities in the persons direction should they wish to or make sure it WASNT guided in authorities direction
May explain influx of various priests ofcourse only my opinion

Thanks Honeyblade. That doesn`t surprise me. So it would be Father Pacheco`s Bishop who would decide what to do with such information.
Was it this Bishop who was angry they were given the keys to the church?
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Have just been reading the above link. it appears that was the Bishop that was angry that were given the keys. In the same link its states this...On the night of their daughter's disappearance, the McCann couple asked for a priest. The priest of the Luz church, José Pacheco, did not respond. The couple knew, even before they had gone to Praia da Luz, that the Anglican priest Haynes Hubbard celebrated masses there and lived with his wife. He had a friendship with McCann's family members. The Hubbards didn't arrive until 3 days after Madeleine went missing?