Re: ***LIVE*** Discussion and comments thread BBC Panorama tonight 25th April 7.30pm

[PeterMac]

final words of the programme
"to solve the enduring mystery"

Is that not libellous ?

Only if Tony says it.

Oh, yes. I forgot !
Just as detailing the findings of the interim report,
using the word "disappeared" throughout;
saying that Kate and Gerry have never wavered from "their account" that M was abducted,
mentioning Murder Squad detectives,
emphasising that "all four couples left their children unattended",
saying that the McC apartment was a 70 metre walk away (which by implication makes the others very much further !!),
showing the picture of the bed which had clearly NOT been slept in,
using the expression that one of the group said she had seen a man carrying a child (different from using the expression that she had seen a man carrying a child),
showing the dogs in full cry,
emphasising that they alerted in the flat AND in the hire car,
emphasising that they were British dogs,
saying that some of those at the centre of the enquiry are now prepared to talk,
emphasising that the public are outraged because they "gave them money",
using the expression that the McCs "decided it was better simply to get out of Portugal", (rather than "reluctantly felt they could not longer remain"),
using the word "suspects" throughout as a translation of "arguido/a,
revealing that NI put £1m into the "Fund" (is that revealed in the accounts, HaysMacintyre ?),
revealing that the letter in the Sun was total nonsense and that there had been a lot of work behind the scenes, (in other words it was a lie),
and then revealing that all the stuff about the Portuguese Police not re-opening the case has also been a giant lie on the part of TM,
revealing they have in fact been reviewing it independently for over a year,
and then revealing that Redwood has been in close contact with the Portuguese review team for the whole of that period, ....

is only Libellous if Tony says it !

I am beginning to see a pattern emerging.

[russiandoll]

Clarence M was on tv this morning stating clearly that the 195 leads ref by SY are HISTORIC, ALREADY IN THE FILES BUT THERE IS SOME NEW INFO

[russiandoll]

The panorama programme dissed the PJ, SY were non committal. Redwood would not play ball with Bilton by commenting on the Portuguese authorities.
The Panorama prog was of course commented on by L Kelly on her newsround chat this morning, one male journo sanely saying there had to be a line drawn sometime with all the money being spent. LK and other journo remarked just how well that prog showed the botched investigation and would we have to be spending millions if it had been conducted properly.
deja vu or what yawn

[david_uk]

AR gave away his whole remit. Closure for the Mccanns.

This joint review may be nothing more than a way fo getting at those `other` files the Mccanns couldnt get hold of! so the SY can stitch up each and every part of this farce and the Mccanns can come out 100% clean as far as `UK` is concerned and its just those pesky useless PJ who are all money hungry nutters who think the Mccanns did it!.

[russiandoll]

ribisl, I just changed the number. (250.000 was what I expected for a reading rate of 20 per day by all 35.) Even so, the lower number for 40.000 should be easily achieved by just 10 'readers' over a year. Slow readers at that.

Not only reading but translating, cross-referencing, filing reports, reinterviewing witnesses, consulting the PJ, talking to PIs, liaising with the MCs...

I translated a section from a French article earlier, made very clear that there were lots of docs still to be translated.

[russiandoll]

The brief then truly was investigate "as if the abduction occurred in the uk" - parents to be seen as victims and not suspect and keep them in the loop. Maybe that is why the programme was brought forward and a statement put out by sy - so the bewk can now go out in time for the anniversary and the court cases can go ahead with no suspicion against the parents because sy say so.

very corrupt then. AR is answerable to his superiors in the chain of command and has to follow policy which includes those close to missing child being considered suspects if doubt abduction happened. They are eliminated quickly if investigations how they are in the clear. If SY are ignoring evidence which casts doubt on the reported abduction, they are a disgrace. Corruption over money is bad enough.......but this? It has to go straight to the top.

[Pershing36]

The papers are full this morning.

I personally can't believe they are quoting 'SY thinks she is alive and living with abductor'. Obviously everyone hopes she is alive and well but realistically how likely is this?

Is it really a pattern of these kind of crimes that abductors just whisk them off for a new life somewhere? Especially with all the publicisty at the time.

I did not watch the programme, I had no intention of doing so.

[russiandoll]

The papers are full this morning.

I personally can't believe they are quoting 'SY thinks she is alive and living with abductor'. Obviously everyone hopes she is alive and well but realistically how likely is this?

Is it really a pattern of these kind of crimes that abductors just whisk them off for a new life somewhere? Especially with all the publicisty at the time.

I did not watch the programme, I had no intention of doing so.

No is the answer to that q I think.
Even less likely that the police would advertise this internationally if they beleived it to be the case.
Never mind trying to discover what has happened to the most famous missing child in the world: I know customs police whose procedures are to swoop when culprits off guard, everything done on total qt behind scenes...to grab a huge drug haul and nick the offenders. And this is a vulnerable minor.
The recent famous cases where young women were found after a long time missing......I recall hearing zilch from police until after their recovery.
Now why when this child is so well known and so easily identifiable [ the right eye mark is in the latest photo] would the police say she could be with her abductor? Policy is loud and clear the safety of the child dictates all police decisions.
So I can only infer
the police know exactly where she is and are certain she is safe.
the police do not fear for her safety because there is next to no chance that she is alive and can come to harm as a result of their public statements.
then they are not being transparent with what they are doing.
not playing games. employing tactics, a strategy, with a goal in mind.
the police are considering tracing all holidaymakers at that time acc to one newspaper ; if true, asking a lot from their memories and it has to include the McCanns and friends, surely...not every holidaymaker but them?
then there is that comment about the KEY issue of analysing lots of phone traffic.
AR saying Madeleine McCann is at the HEART of everything we do.
He will have to be held to that statement . made for all the world to hear, if it looks even slightly like the TRUTH [ again used by him ] about what happened to a little girl is sacrificed to protect someone [ an adult/'adults... that wont be the McCanns then, as they are non -entities in the bigger picture imo] who for all this to be covered up would have to be a very important person indeed needing that level of secrecy.

[rainbow-fairy]

The brief then truly was investigate "as if the abduction occurred in the uk" - parents to be seen as victims and not suspect and keep them in the loop. Maybe that is why the programme was brought forward and a statement put out by sy - so the bewk can now go out in time for the anniversary and the court cases can go ahead with no suspicion against the parents because sy say so.

very corrupt then. AR is answerable to his superiors in the chain of command and has to follow policy which includes those close to missing child being considered suspects if doubt abduction happened. They are eliminated quickly if investigations how they are in the clear. If SY are ignoring evidence which casts doubt on the reported abduction, they are a disgrace. Corruption over money is bad enough.......but this? It has to go straight to the top.

Hi, just a quick point ~ 'as if the abduction happened in the UK' would mean that automatically, the very first people to be looked closely at, would be the last person to see the child alive (in this case, allegedly Gerry and his 'proud father' moment) then the rest of the family SO I don't necessarily think that is a bad thing.

Also

'Closure for the McCanns' ~ this is being interpreted in the 'American' way - 'closure' meaning answers, then acceptance.
Could it be though, that in this case, 'closure for the Mccanns' could actually mean putting a stop to it all? Closing the shop down - literally?
Its just a thought. Obviously, they cannot be too explicit in what they are saying at this stage...

[russiandoll]

ribisl, I just changed the number. (250.000 was what I expected for a reading rate of 20 per day by all 35.) Even so, the lower number for 40.000 should be easily achieved by just 10 'readers' over a year. Slow readers at that.

Not only reading but translating, cross-referencing, filing reports, reinterviewing witnesses, consulting the PJ, talking to PIs, liaising with the MCs...

it was stated they had a liaison officer assigned?

[russiandoll]

look at 8.59 on panorama video..........the prog at least as well as showing the isolation of the apartment block in relation to its surroundings, showed that awful drop from the balcony to the ground. Where she was left to her fate.
Left alone there with access to the outside via a patio door and that drop? How the heck can neglect not be an issue here?
[ I dont believe Maddie was left alone when or where she could come to harm btw]

[Liz Eagles]

I think this programme is also about timing. I've just read an article in today's DM 'Maddie could be alive' then scrolled down to the comments section. Lots and lots of pro comments. The Mc's will no doubt be parking their bottoms on the seats of daytime telly soon to promote the paperback. Perfect timing. No doubt the likes of LK will probably give the Panorama prog a mention. Then there will be the opportunity to say how grateful they are for the enquiry and maybe give a subliminal thanks to Cameron and SY. There is also the issue of the Leveson enquiry, Murdoch(s), Hunt, Cameron, Brown. Perhaps the Mcs will be asked about their ordeal at the hands of the nasty media. That can't be bad for public opinion re NI - who knows it might just take the heat off public opinion of government ministers. Then there are the libel trials - can't be a bad thing for the public to know that nasty people 'hindered the investigation'. It all comes down to money/spin.

As for the Panorama programme itself I have no words. It proved nothing. It didn't say much. It was uninformative and unnecessary. The photography was poor. The content was edited to show the Portuguese police as inept. It didn't mention finding Madeleine much. What the hell 'bringing closure to her family' meant I have no idea. Bilton - 'so many questions' yes there are I agree. Why didn't he ask them then? If they were not answered that shows the programme was pointless in the first place.

Of course all the above is my most humble opinion.

One thing I would like to add, I watched the programme with a relative who knows very little about the case other than what is published in the media. On the videos of Madeleine she asked me to pause the programme and asked 'is Madeleine ill?'

[rainbow-fairy]

Is it my imagination or do we have Advocatus back as 'NoFuleMe'? The style of righting is very similar!

Trying to be balanced in my analysis of this propaganda programme.
I actually did swear at the TV at one point - I believe my words were "How f**king dare you?!?" when Amaral was asked I'd he felt comfortable making money from a missing child! So its ok for the parents, who were suspects in an investigation they allowed themselves by default to be shelved, to sell good quality wristbands, t shirts, posters and holiday packs? Con the public by stating 'all royalties from the book go to the Fund' (no mention or trace of the advance!). With the donations they received, they should, if they were serious about finding Maddie not making $, GIVE the packs and posters away FOR FREE!

However. I did actually think the programme was a lot LESS 'pro McCann' than I feared.
Some big bombs were dropped.

The dog alerts (yes, they SHOULD have stated Eddie was an EVRD dog that alerted to cadaver odour only, but...)
The interim report.
The fact the Portuguese are not changing their stance - death and concealment occurred.
Nowhere in the actual PROGRAMME did Redwood say 'I believe she is alive'
It was emphasised that Portugal only can re-open case and keep primacy.
Bilton, fwiw, I don't think looked like he believed a word of it, and some of his wording was ambiguous to say the very least.


Let's just for a second think about this. If the objective is to nail you-know-who once and for all, they are hardly going to appear on TV and say so, are they? That would be showing your hand. One doesn't do that.
Could there be a lulling into a sense of security for some? As, I believe russiandoll stated about customs, they swoop unexpectedly.

IF SY say 'Maddie is dead' the media frenzy would start anew. The words 'impossible to get a fair trial' would be bandied.
I don't know, I don't think all is lost, it could be a 'let's not frighten the horses' approach until they go in for the kill.
They are going to need concrete, watertight evidence to gain a conviction. This could be what is taking so long.
Yes, this is optimism speaking!

Pessimistically, cynically or realistically, the BBC is there for government propaganda, not 'truth' - always has been.
Google Dunblane, Gordon Brown, you'll get the idea - I have always believed p*********a to be at the heart of this.
Just a seed of an idea; We know there were connections with GB/his brother and some of the T9.
It is strongly suspected that the Dunblane children were, to be blunt, executed as they were beginning to 'talk' about a prominent person.
MBM was only a few months away from starting school. Were they afraid she would talk - or had she started to already?
Granted, not a nice thing to think about BUT there ARE 'dark forces' at work in the UK, and there is SOMETHING so big, so rank, so dire at the blackened heart of it that £m's are being thrown at this when we are supposedly in dire economic straits!
Strange indeed.
I hope my optimistic side wins out on this one. My heart breaks for that little girl and the disgusting way her memory is being soiled over, and over and over again.

[maebee]

I am beginning to think (hope) that last night's McCannorama was a set up/good cop job and that the Mcs and Taps are being lulled into a false sense of security. I can think of no other reason for the obvious latest Mc love-in. It was so ridiculously pro Mc that it really makes me think that SY are playing a very clever game. I know most won't agree with me but I need this belief.

[david_uk]

look at 8.59 on panorama video..........the prog at least as well as showing the isolation of the apartment block in relation to its surroundings, showed that awful drop from the balcony to the ground. Where she was left to her fate.
Left alone there with access to the outside via a patio door and that drop? How the heck can neglect not be an issue here?
[ I dont believe Maddie was left alone when or where she could come to harm btw]

I gave a theory years ago that Maddie fell from there into the flowerbed and was found and taken back into apartment!

[Spaniel]

"Dogs detecting DNA" had so obviously been through a lawyer's washing machine.

[tuom]

look at 8.59 on panorama video..........the prog at least as well as showing the isolation of the apartment block in relation to its surroundings, showed that awful drop from the balcony to the ground. Where she was left to her fate.
Left alone there with access to the outside via a patio door and that drop? How the heck can neglect not be an issue here?
[ I dont believe Maddie was left alone when or where she could come to harm btw]

I gave a theory years ago that Maddie fell from there into the flowerbed and was found and taken back into apartment!

I had thought about that also , especially as the dogs picked up a scent from there, that would fit in with a child waking , being frightened and leaving the apartment to find her parents , the patio door was unlocked , I must look for some more information into the handle of the patio door .

Could MMC have reached it ? and had a tragic accident on the steps ? it also still baffles me that the MC's seemed to dismiss this outright when as parents we all know that these things can happen

[Lady-Heather]

I am beginning to think (hope) that last night's McCannorama was a set up/good cop job and that the Mcs and Taps are being lulled into a false sense of security. I can think of no other reason for the obvious latest Mc love-in. It was so ridiculously pro Mc that it really makes me think that SY are playing a very clever game. I know most won't agree with me but I need this belief.

I agree with you. I believe that a game is being played here, but SY are just watching, not participating. The BBC made this programme for entertainment purposes, so imagine the headlines if (when?) the McScam is exposed. The scandal, 'we were had', can't believe it etc etc. It's genius and the stuff of crime novels. Money to be made, newspapers and books flying off the shelves, stories to be sold. Everyone's a winner, except the perpetrators. All IMHO.

[Liz Eagles]

If this is off topic please remove. The following is a reader's comment on DM's article (link below) re Maddie Could Be Alive. My heart sank when I saw this little gem of a comment.

A few days after Maddie vanished I was in the pub with some friends and one of them suggested all children should be 'micro-chipped' with some sort of tracking device which could then be removed upon becoming an adult (to protect privacy and freedom etc). We all thought his idea was crazy, if not inhumane, and had a good laugh at the idea despite him describing how such devices exist and could easily be adapted to be put into children. I hadn't given that conversation any thought again until reading today's news on Maddie and (call me crazy!) I'm actually starting to wonder if it wouldn't be so bad after all? Even something to put into kids clothes/shoes would be better than nothing wouldn't it? We track cars, are they worth more than our kids? Maybe I'm just dreaming, maybe just frustration at stories like this but surely there's got to be more we can do to prevent this from happening?

- Paul, London, 25/4/2012 16:57

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[Guest]

I am beginning to think (hope) that last night's McCannorama was a set up/good cop job and that the Mcs and Taps are being lulled into a false sense of security. I can think of no other reason for the obvious latest Mc love-in. It was so ridiculously pro Mc that it really makes me think that SY are playing a very clever game. I know most won't agree with me but I need this belief.

I agree with you. I believe that a game is being played here, but SY are just watching, not participating. The BBC made this programme for entertainment purposes, so imagine the headlines if (when?) the McScam is exposed. The scandal, 'we were had', can't believe it etc etc. It's genius and the stuff of crime novels. Money to be made, newspapers and books flying off the shelves, stories to be sold. Everyone's a winner, except the perpetrators. All IMHO.

I thought that originally when we had the first articles etc. But DCI Redwood has rather nailed his colours to the mast by saying in interviews on video that he believes MM could be alive and taken by an abductor. Don't think he would be saying such things if the case was not going in that direction, after all if they then come to another conclusion or are actually looking at other scenarios, he is going to look pretty stupid after all the things he has said in the last few days. Just my opinion.

[aiyoyo]

The papers are full this morning.

I personally can't believe they are quoting 'SY thinks she is alive and living with abductor'. Obviously everyone hopes she is alive and well but realistically how likely is this?

Is it really a pattern of these kind of crimes that abductors just whisk them off for a new life somewhere? Especially with all the publicisty at the time.

I did not watch the programme, I had no intention of doing so.

She wasn't taken by a granny. The predator must have killed her literally hours later after he got her, because she's a hot potato being the most famous missing child bearing such a distinctive mark. She's dead.

[Jill Havern]

The papers are full this morning.

I personally can't believe they are quoting 'SY thinks she is alive and living with abductor'. Obviously everyone hopes she is alive and well but realistically how likely is this?

Is it really a pattern of these kind of crimes that abductors just whisk them off for a new life somewhere? Especially with all the publicisty at the time.

I did not watch the programme, I had no intention of doing so.

She wasn't taken by a granny. The predator must have killed her literally hours later after he got her, because she's a hot potato being the most famous missing child bearing such a distinctive mark. She's dead.

According to Eddie and Keela the predator must have killed Maddie in the apartment first before abducting her.

[Lady-Heather]

I thought that originally when we had the first articles etc. But DCI Redwood has rather nailed his colours to the mast by saying in interviews on video that he believes MM could be alive and taken by an abductor. Don't think he would be saying such things if the case was not going in that direction, after all if they then come to another conclusion or are actually looking at other scenarios, he is going to look pretty stupid after all the things he has said in the last few days. Just my opinion.

I think I need to see if I can find a transcript of what AR actually said last night. I couldn't bring myself to watch it (self-preservation) so can't really come to conclusions without knowing the facts. I cannot conceivably believe that any police officer can sanely come to that conclusion (stranger abduction, parents not involved) after reviewing the witness statements, the evidence and the Portuguese investigation & research. Perhaps I'm deluded, but I can't believe it. I think something else is going on, a waiting game maybe. Time will tell, I hope.

[Jill Havern]

I'm wondering how those in Portugal must be feeling today...I wonder if Joana Morais will post anything on her blog? She must be fuming and I doubt Goncalo and Sandra F feel great either.

[Guest]

I thought that originally when we had the first articles etc. But DCI Redwood has rather nailed his colours to the mast by saying in interviews on video that he believes MM could be alive and taken by an abductor. Don't think he would be saying such things if the case was not going in that direction, after all if they then come to another conclusion or are actually looking at other scenarios, he is going to look pretty stupid after all the things he has said in the last few days. Just my opinion.

I think I need to see if I can find a transcript of what AR actually said last night. I couldn't bring myself to watch it (self-preservation) so can't really come to conclusions without knowing the facts. I cannot conceivably believe that any police officer can sanely come to that conclusion (stranger abduction, parents not involved) after reviewing the witness statements, the evidence and the Portuguese investigation & research. Perhaps I'm deluded, but I can't believe it. I think something else is going on, a waiting game maybe. Time will tell, I hope.

Not just last night, the ITV interview on the other Panorama thread. Plus all the quotes from him in the Guardian, Independant, and Liverpool Echo IIRC.