Re: ***LIVE*** Discussion and comments thread BBC Panorama tonight 25th April 7.30pm

[NoFuleMe]

Utterly rubbish programme - I had an inescapable sense of deja vu almost all the way through. But I am much more encouraged now than after reading all the spin in the papers - no wonder the appalling Mitchell was looking so smug, the journos did all his work for him. Redwood didn't really say anything, but was not prepared to comment on the PJ's work - quite right too, and that suggests to me that they are colleagues working towards the same goal. He seems to want the case re-opened - so do we, and we know who doesn't want that or they would have asked for it. Sandra Felgueiras seems to be unrecognisable from her former sceptical self. I would imagine the comments from Robert Murat were highly selectively edited - how could he have forgotten who was responsible for the PJ suspecting him in the first place? The whole programme was clearly a McCann-Mitchell production - how could such a short programme need so much padding? I believe everything is still on course, although I can't see what the purpose of the programme was at all. As far Alan Johnson, what can I say? Yesterday's man, who cares what he thinks? He is hardly the sharpest tool in the box anyway. The current Home Secretary was certainly not putting in an appearance. All in all, not much to worry about if we are just going by that waste of 30 minutes - lets wait to hear what Blacksmith and Dr Martin Roberts think when we next have the privilege of hearing from them.

Blacksmith and Roberts?

Did they not have faith in SY?

I may be wrong, but IMHO the Cameroon SY FARRAGO is still on course...

[NoFuleMe]

Fawned over by everyone ,including all the participants at Leveson , terminally lazy MP,s on the CMS select committee and spoken to in a reverent whisper by sofa sitting daytime TV presenters. Declared innocent and supported by three Prime Ministers ,every Home Secretary since Jackie Smith and every newspaper editor in the land and yet they still feel the need for another bucket of whitewash. All I see is fear of discovery and final confirmation that there is a much bigger secret than one tragic accident befalling one poor little girl amongst a group of cruelly neglected children. This extraordinary effort involving a state sponsored TV channels erstwhile flagship documentary programme looks desperate because its such a clumsy and obvious attempt to stitch -up Portugal and its police force. Somebody is panicking and whoever it is just made a massive error. IMO

10/10

But I see no error.

This was surgical, and Yellowood came across to me disgracefully.

He wants

CLOSURE FOR THE MCCANNS

HE IS ON MESSAGE

[NoFuleMe]

On the other hand ...
for at least the first half of the programme
Dog video... shown to the world
interim report detailing M. Dead in the apartment, Simulation of abduction, Parents involved ... shown to the world
Portuguese Police opinion that she is dead ... shown to the world
Portuguese Public opinion that she is dead ... shown to the world
Murat set up ... shown to the world
Political interference... shown to the world
Murdoch's interference....shown to the world

And the reporter himself used the M word "MYSTERY" (C-R take note) direct to Redwood, who did not disagree. Also to TB, please note. Mystery is NOT libellous.

So far as I can remember, without replaying it, Redwood did not say he believed she was alive. (subject to correction on that one, obviously )
For me as an ex- .... he really had no choice but to make fairly banal and anodyne statements, and all in all did fairly well in saying nothing much.
Which is not only what I expected, but what I hoped !

Shall re-watch and make more notes. More later.

Oh I agree completely, it was far more exposing and explicit than I was expecting, hopeful many more sceptics out there now [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

I agree with you two. I am optimistic [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

I'm sorry to say that for me i don't agree with you. Because the points you are quoting above, most of them were known in public. And the way it was shown was kind brush over those point and after to put all the failure and the blame to the portuguese police.
Even the way they have introduced Amaral comments its revealing itself. just to put all the failure of investigations in the portuguese side. But no way, they 've talked about the inconsistencies in the T9 statements or many other crucial evidences in the case pointing to the mccanns or their lack of coperation.
For me, this program it was very well orchestrated to manipulate the british public opinions about this case, to push even more the blame to the portuguese police and to make it a gift to the Mccanns especial for this soon 5th anniversairy of the disappearance of their daughter.

As i said before, i think this all circus seems to prepare the public opinion what is coming soon!!!!

Very good analysis IMHO.

I agree it was very suspect changing the air date and especially the early time

Most folks at 7.30 were watching real v bayern on itv.

So, the programme was kinda buried. Something may be up behind the scenes, I hope...

[NoFuleMe]

I can imagine Mr Amaral would never have appeared for the programme if he knew he was going to be portrayed in the way he was. I'm sure he gave a much longer interview putting across some good points, and admitting some mistakes, and most of it was probably on the cutting room floor. He would have been better to have declined the invitation to appear, he must have known they would do a hatchet job on him. From what they tried to portray, he made money out of a missing child, (£300,000), and he made mistakes,

He said before he now only gives interviews to the British controlled media if he was paid a big fee

This time I guess he thought panorama would play fair

Bad decision...

[NoFuleMe]

The whole thing was a farce. But most people will feel sure that it just reinforces the old propaganda that the Portuguese are useless bunglers and the McCanns are innocent of the death/disappearance of their child.

It was all too obvious when Bilton said: "The dogs found DNA in the apartment and car...which led to the parents named as suspects."

He obviously said what he was told - "Look, you know and I know the dogs found the scent of a dead body and spots of blood. But just say it was DNA because most of the plebs won't know any better, OK?"

And dear old Bilton said: "Yes, whatever you say, sir. Just as long as I get a few jobs away from the BBC North West graveyard."

What is loathsome about Bilton is he did the Panorama programme five years ago.

He must have known more than most about the lies of the parents and why their friends ran in circles to keep them sweet.

Pond life bottom feeder - that is why the spooks picked him for the mission.

[NoFuleMe]

Yes, but Bilton is obviously told what to say...and the police are too in this case.

I fear that the McCanns have won. They are laughing their horrible faces off....

This TV programmre was more than a whitewash. It was a smack in the face for everyone who wants to know why that poor neglected child has now disappeared off the face of the earth.

Precisely.

These bastards are ruthless. They have robbed all our savings, sent all our jobs to china, put kids in 30k debt for worthless degrees, and are now targeting the ultra poor for destitution.

So IMHO this Maddie McCann tragedy is now also being used for the macro agenda.

[NoFuleMe]

From The Mail,

Five years on, the pivotal questions

Is she alive?
There have been no confirmed sightings of Madeleine McCann since she disappeared on May 3, 2007.
The original Portuguese police team believed she died in a ‘tragic accident’.
Kate
and Gerry McCann have always insisted there is no evidence to suggest
she is dead, and British police now believe ‘there is a possibility she
is alive’.

Where is she?

There have been reported sightings all round the world, ranging from the credible to bizarre psychic visions.
Of those investigated, none have been confirmed as Madeleine.

Who is responsible?

Three
people were officially named as arguidos, or suspects, in the
investigation - Kate and Gerry McCann and British expat Robert Murat.
All
three were formally cleared when the investigation was shelved and have
won libel cases against newspapers and broadcasters which falsely
claimed they were involved in Madeleine’s disappearance.
The McCanns believe Madeleine was taken by an abductor.
Convicted
paedophile Raymond Hewlett allegedly said he saw the girl twice before
she vanished and claimed she was stolen to order by a gypsy gang, but
denied he was involved.
He died in 2010.

Are there new leads?

British
police have identified almost 200 new lines of investigation from the
Portuguese case files and the McCanns’ own private detectives.
They have refused to reveal details.

Why was this not done before?

Portuguese
officers were convinced Madeleine was dead and have admitted publicly
that they did not fully investigate other theories, including many of
the sightings.

What else was missed?

Police
did not set up effective searches and did not alert the Spanish border
for 12 hours, allowing a potential abductor to escape with Madeleine
undetected.
Even a basic
check of the other guests at the Ocean Club resort in Praia da Luz was
not completed for 48 hours, by which time many potential witnesses had
left.

What about forensic evidence?

Police
did not seal off the McCanns’ apartment until 10am the next day, by
which time the McCanns, their friends, resort staff, concerned helpers
and police officers had all potentially contaminated forensic evidence.
Samples
were taken and tested for blood and DNA but were found to be so
degraded and contaminated that the results were inconclusive.

Will the case be solved?

British
police want the case reopened but public opinion in Portugal has not
been supportive of the McCanns and there may be little interest in
raking over a five-year mystery which has already damaged the country’s
tourist industry.
Even if
the case is reopened, the reality remains that blunders in the first few
days after Madeleine’s disappearance may mean the McCanns will never
know what happened to their daughter.

Read more: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Why didn't they publish the 48 or 60 questions?

Why not publish all the questions mrs McCann was asked, and her reply of a big fat zero?

[tigger]

For close on 3 million pounds with 35 people having worked for a year - I would expect at least this:

40.000 documents to be read.

Allowing for 5 staff to be doing liaison jobs and supervision of the overall running of the case.
If 30 staff were reading an average of 12 documents a day each for a year - 131.000 documents would have been read!

So it follows that less than 10 staff would be needed to go through all the 40.000 documents to complete the task in a year.

[Ribisl]

For close on 3 million pounds with 35 people having worked for a year - I would expect at least this:

40.000 documents to be read.

Allowing for 5 staff to be doing liaison jobs and supervision of the overall running of the case.
If 30 staff were reading an average of 12 documents a day each for a year - 250.000 documents would have been read!

So it follows that less than 10 staff would be needed to go through all the 40.000 documents to complete the task in a year.

[aiyoyo]

Panorama did a hatchet job on the PJ, making it open season for press to copy cat.
Every tabloid slags off the PJ, yet AR said he hopes or rather implores PT to reopen the case on his belief that there are 195 possible leads and his firm belief Maddie is alive! WTF!

If he thinks Portugal is going to waste manpower and resources chasing up these "possible" leads he's a barking mad frog.
If the Yard has discovered new irrefutable evidence Maddie IS alive, then he must produce 'that particular and crucial piece of evidence" NOT 195 of them from the pte mccanns detectives files doubtless.

It would appear the 25% of the Yard's completed analysis comes from the M3 '31 boxes of documents' than that of the 40,000 pieces of the PJ?

There is an article on Pamalam's site that states that the PJ came to the realisation that the Yard, from the outset, is only keen to look at the "A" theory and nothing else. In other word a whitewash. All the more weirder that AR said there are two possibilities to Maddie state of being. So realistically speaking if the PJ did re-open the case then I think AR is playing the blinders.

Otherwise he's just a puppet for Cameron, who in turn is puppet of Murdoch (if twitter is to be believed that NI exerts pressure on DC since a year ago).

All depending on the veracity of that allegation, then it begs the question how DC managed to convince his Portuguese counterpart to a joint review. That would make a hugh difference to the objective (agenda) of the review for obvious reason.
Far as I read the co-operation deal did not follow protocol, in that the joint review was not made through the PP, which is the proper channel with remit to everything to do with judiciary matters. So one has to deduce it was done at political level instead of judiciary level.

[tigger]

For close on 3 million pounds with 35 people having worked for a year - I would expect at least this:

40.000 documents to be read.

Allowing for 5 staff to be doing liaison jobs and supervision of the overall running of the case.
If 30 staff were reading an average of 12 documents a day each for a year - 131.000 documents would have been read!

So it follows that less than 10 staff would be needed to go through all the 40.000 documents to complete the task in a year.

ribisl, I just changed the number. (250.000 was what I expected for a reading rate of 20 per day by all 35.) Even so, the lower number for 40.000 should be easily achieved by just 10 'readers' over a year. Slow readers at that.

[Ribisl]

ribisl, I just changed the number. (250.000 was what I expected for a reading rate of 20 per day by all 35.) Even so, the lower number for 40.000 should be easily achieved by just 10 'readers' over a year. Slow readers at that.

Not only reading but translating, cross-referencing, filing reports, reinterviewing witnesses, consulting the PJ, talking to PIs, liaising with the MCs...

[aiyoyo]

For close on 3 million pounds with 35 people having worked for a year - I would expect at least this:

40.000 documents to be read.

Allowing for 5 staff to be doing liaison jobs and supervision of the overall running of the case.
If 30 staff were reading an average of 12 documents a day each for a year - 131.000 documents would have been read!

So it follows that less than 10 staff would be needed to go through all the 40.000 documents to complete the task in a year.

According to AR, the Yard are leaving no stone (page) unturned - they are reading every page (not sure whether systemically), scrutinizing and analysing every piece carefully so that takes time.

Judging from his comments so far, they are poor analysers, if all they can come up with is she could be "alive" or sadly, equally she could be "dead"!

He is tip toeing around the mccanns, but in the process some damage is done inter-alia Tavares (sp) interim report got shown, dogs got mentioned, Amaral's book highlighted, Mccanns legal spendings on Portuguese lawyer (ID) got mentioned, plus he has thrown a few spanners in the work.

Not sure what to make of it. On the surface of it, a whitewash, but how he expects to get away from that is a $64M question. Say, if thhe public were to successfully lobby for an inquiry to the Yard's work on mccanns review, how is AR going to avoid going down dragging a few with him?

Throwing the ball back into the court of PJ on that basis is very sly.
If Portugal refuses to reopen on his belief of "A" theory , the bungling coppers will be further denounced and slagged off, giving the impression the mccanns were hard done by the cops.

Which begs the pertinent questions
Did the PJ know AR was doing this programme?
Did PJ consent talking about the ongoing review?
Did they pre-agree what AR was going to say?
What made the Yard comment now (at this stage) when it was reported they werent going to?

[Ribisl]

Aiyoyo wrote

Which begs the pertinent questions
Did the PJ know AR was doing this programme?
Did PJ consent talking about the ongoing review?
Did they pre-agree what AR was going to say?
What made the Yard comment now (at this stage) when it was reported they werent going to?

Possibly not to the first three questions. They are co-operating but not officially joining forces at this stage from what I've understood and AR was quite clear their intention was to hand over additional intelligence once they believe they have enough to merit reopening of the case by the PJ.

[tigger]

ribisl, I just changed the number. (250.000 was what I expected for a reading rate of 20 per day by all 35.) Even so, the lower number for 40.000 should be easily achieved by just 10 'readers' over a year. Slow readers at that.

Not only reading but translating, cross-referencing, filing reports, reinterviewing witnesses, consulting the PJ, talking to PIs, liaising with the MCs...

Yes, of course, but the other 25 could have been doing that. What were they doing liaising with the McC's? They have not been cleared. Liaising infers keeping up to date, requesting co-operation. If the slow readers didn't get as far as the 48 questions Ms Healy refused to answer, if they've fallen asleep over the bewk - roll on the next bung of however many millions is needed to work out how to circumvent all evidence against the McCanns.

Just checked DM online. Nothing new, same as last night before the programme - no new comments and nothing on the front page. Weird.

[aiyoyo]

Aiyoyo wrote

Which begs the pertinent questions
Did the PJ know AR was doing this programme?
Did PJ consent talking about the ongoing review?
Did they pre-agree what AR was going to say?
What made the Yard comment now (at this stage) when it was reported they werent going to?

Possibly not to the first three questions. They are co-operating but not officially joining forces at this stage from what I've understood and AR was quite clear their intention was to hand over additional intelligence once they believe they have enough to merit reopening of the case by the PJ.

It's supposed to be a "joint review", and relationship is built on trust and mutual respect.
If the Yard went behind the back of PJ to do the programme, slagging off the PJ, then expect the PJ to cooperate.further...fat chance!

BTW, what good would be a joint-review, rather what is the whole point of a "joint review" if they couldnt come to a joint decision on the outcome and the direction forward?

[Ribisl]

Yes I added 'liaising with the MCs' because that to me was probably the singularly most striking fact that came out of last night's programme.

[aiyoyo]

Yes I added 'liaising with the MCs' because that to me was probably the singularly most striking fact that came out of last night's programme.

Hence, Kate's epilogue to her bewk! She knew all along the going ons in the review.

Never before in history has a criminal review case been updated by the Head of Review to the subject in question I believe.

[Guest]

Yes I added 'liaising with the MCs' because that to me was probably the singularly most striking fact that came out of last night's programme.

Hence, Kate's epilogue to her bewk! She knew all along the going ons in the review.

Never before in history has a criminal review case been updated by the Head of Review to the subject in question I believe.

The brief then truly was investigate "as if the abduction occurred in the uk" - parents to be seen as victims and not suspect and keep them in the loop. Maybe that is why the programme was brought forward and a statement put out by sy - so the bewk can now go out in time for the anniversary and the court cases can go ahead with no suspicion against the parents because sy say so.

[Guest]

Sorry to go on so much, but living here in the Algarve, you get to hear much more than is reported in the UK.

Please stay around and tell us more...much more! If it wasn't for those of you who live in the Algarve we would be completely in the dark.

[Guest]

The McCanns Clarrie on BBC now talking about last nights programme and the SY review.

[PeterMac]

final words of the programme
"to solve the enduring mystery"

Is that not libellous ?

[Guest]

final words of the programme
"to solve the enduring mystery"

Is that not libellous ?

Only if Tony says it.

[Miraflores]

I missed the programme last night - is it worth watching on iPlayer?

[Guest]

I missed the programme last night - is it worth watching on iPlayer?

You can watch it here - HiDeHo uploaded it for us

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

[PeterMac]

final words of the programme
"to solve the enduring mystery"

Is that not libellous ?

Only if Tony says it.

Oh, yes. I forgot !
Just as detailing the findings of the interim report,
using the word "disappeared" throughout;
saying that Kate and Gerry have never wavered from "their account" that M was abducted,
mentioning Murder Squad detectives,
emphasising that "all four couples left their children unattended",
saying that the McC apartment was a 70 metre walk away (which by implication makes the others very much further !!),
showing the picture of the bed which had clearly NOT been slept in,
using the expression that one of the group said she had seen a man carrying a child (different from using the expression that she had seen a man carrying a child),
showing the dogs in full cry,
emphasising that they alerted in the flat AND in the hire car,
emphasising that they were British dogs,
saying that some of those at the centre of the enquiry are now prepared to talk,
emphasising that the public are outraged because they "gave them money",
using the expression that the McCs "decided it was better simply to get out of Portugal", (rather than "reluctantly felt they could not longer remain"),
using the word "suspects" throughout as a translation of "arguido/a,
revealing that NI put £1m into the "Fund" (is that revealed in the accounts, HaysMacintyre ?),
revealing that the letter in the Sun was total nonsense and that there had been a lot of work behind the scenes, (in other words it was a lie),
and then revealing that all the stuff about the Portuguese Police not re-opening the case has also been a giant lie on the part of TM,
revealing they have in fact been reviewing it independently for over a year,
and then revealing that Redwood has been in close contact with the Portuguese review team for the whole of that period, ....

is only Libellous if Tony says it !

I am beginning to see a pattern emerging.

[russiandoll]

Clarence M was on tv this morning stating clearly that the 195 leads ref by SY are HISTORIC, ALREADY IN THE FILES BUT THERE IS SOME NEW INFO

[russiandoll]

The panorama programme dissed the PJ, SY were non committal. Redwood would not play ball with Bilton by commenting on the Portuguese authorities.
The Panorama prog was of course commented on by L Kelly on her newsround chat this morning, one male journo sanely saying there had to be a line drawn sometime with all the money being spent. LK and other journo remarked just how well that prog showed the botched investigation and would we have to be spending millions if it had been conducted properly.
deja vu or what yawn

[david_uk]

AR gave away his whole remit. Closure for the Mccanns.

This joint review may be nothing more than a way fo getting at those `other` files the Mccanns couldnt get hold of! so the SY can stitch up each and every part of this farce and the Mccanns can come out 100% clean as far as `UK` is concerned and its just those pesky useless PJ who are all money hungry nutters who think the Mccanns did it!.

[russiandoll]

ribisl, I just changed the number. (250.000 was what I expected for a reading rate of 20 per day by all 35.) Even so, the lower number for 40.000 should be easily achieved by just 10 'readers' over a year. Slow readers at that.

Not only reading but translating, cross-referencing, filing reports, reinterviewing witnesses, consulting the PJ, talking to PIs, liaising with the MCs...

I translated a section from a French article earlier, made very clear that there were lots of docs still to be translated.