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The Bruises on Kate's Arms Mm11

The Bruises on Kate's Arms Regist10
The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™
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The Bruises on Kate's Arms Mm11

The Bruises on Kate's Arms Regist10

The Bruises on Kate's Arms

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The Bruises on Kate's Arms Empty The Bruises on Kate's Arms

Post by Tony Bennett 14.09.19 22:36

THE BRUISES OM KATE'S ARMS

There has been a conversation on Twitter tonight in which someone (@Babs1, I think), has uploaded two photos of Kate McCann, as follows:

(A) On the night of Friday 4 May, the day after Madeleine was reported missing, in which she is holding Cuddle Cat, I think with her left arm (this is the interview where Gerry McCann makes his first appeal, and it may be a 'screen grab' from the video of the interview), and
(B) One with her holding a mobile/smart phone in her right hand, the date of this photo is uncertain.

These appear to be the facts about these two photos:

1 A sizeable bruise, perhaps about 2" to 3" long, and slightly narrower, is visible on each wrist, just below the wrist. It seems to be the left arm in Photo (A) above and the right arm in Photo (B) above.

2 If these are genuine photos, she clearly had bruises that were visible on 4 May and perhaps on a later date

3 The bruises both look consistent with her having been gripped extremely tightly

4 The existence of the bruises has in fact been admitted by Kate and Gerry McCann, who gave the explanation that "Kate had been banging her fists in anger and frustration on the metal bedstead" (not the exact words, but something very similar)

5 However, bruises below the hand and on the wrist are not normally caused by 'banging your fists'

6 I asked on Twitter how long it would normally take for bruises like that to come up blue and highly visible

7 I have had one reply to date which is that "bruises normally take up to 4-5 days to come up looking blue like that". The reply was not from a medically-trained person.

====== 

Could I please ask for the following help?

Could a Moderator/Admin please find and post up the two photos I am talking about, and

THEN, once we have the photos to view, do we have a medically-trained member of guest on the forum who can offer us an opinion on how long it was between the wrist injury and the photograph please?

====== 

If the injury really was sustained perhaps 4-5 days earlier than Friday 4 May, then this would harmonise with and complement other information we have pointing to a sudden event that may have befallen both Madeleine and Kate on the Sunday or Monday

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Dr Martin Roberts: "The evidence is that these are the pjyamas Madeleine wore on holiday in Praia da Luz. They were photographed and the photo handed to a press agency, who released it on 8 May, as the search for Madeleine continued. The McCanns held up these same pyjamas at two press conferences on 5 & 7June 2007. How could Madeleine have been abducted?"

Amelie McCann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".  

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The Bruises on Kate's Arms Empty Re: The Bruises on Kate's Arms

Post by Jill Havern 14.09.19 22:49

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These are the ones that were posted on twitter.

Babs1
@Babs108164110
13h
“The first time I noticed the ugly, purple and black bruises on the sides of my hands, wrists & forearms I was shocked. Gerry REMINDED me how I’d been banging my clenched fists on the veranda railing & the apartment walls the night before.” ~ Kate [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] [madeleine]

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The Bruises on Kate's Arms Empty Re: The Bruises on Kate's Arms

Post by Tony Bennett 14.09.19 23:14

Jill Havern wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

These are the ones that were posted on twitter.

Babs1
@Babs108164110
13h
“The first time I noticed the ugly, purple and black bruises on the sides of my hands, wrists & forearms I was shocked. Gerry REMINDED me how I’d been banging my clenched fists on the veranda railing & the apartment walls the night before.” ~ Kate [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]  [madeleine]

Thanks!

It looks like there are bruises on the hand as well as the wrists.

I assume she wears her watch on her left hand?

So defiinitely bruises on both hands.

It doesn't look like these were minor bruises at all.

Now unless someone has been manipulating the photos, these bruises tell a story.

We have really just TWO questions about the bruises:

1 What caused them?

2 When were they sustained?

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Dr Martin Roberts: "The evidence is that these are the pjyamas Madeleine wore on holiday in Praia da Luz. They were photographed and the photo handed to a press agency, who released it on 8 May, as the search for Madeleine continued. The McCanns held up these same pyjamas at two press conferences on 5 & 7June 2007. How could Madeleine have been abducted?"

Amelie McCann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".  

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The Bruises on Kate's Arms Empty Re: The Bruises on Kate's Arms

Post by Verdi 15.09.19 0:22

This is reminiscent of the floral pattern on Madeleine McCann's neck debacle and the dark area behind the 'make-up' photograph.  I posted-up an image of Kate McCann a long while ago with flowers in her hair - can't find it at the moment but if I come across it I will re-post.

The McCanns certainly referenced the bruising issue, it can be reasonably assumed there this was for a purpose as  I believe everything stated by camp McCann was for a reason.  

I don't however feel any answer will be found in such poor quality images.

Sometimes it would appear folk create these scenarios just for effect.

ETA: On the other hand, the bruising could have been mentioned only to add drama to their version of the truth. I don't believe any mention was made by the GNR or the PJ to confirm the claim.

I think if there was any noticeable bruising it would have been flagged by the investigation, it could be vital evidence. As it stands, the only mention is by the McCann faction.

It is however curious how Kate McCann doesn't feature in any of the key photographs - the playground, the tennis court and the poolside. Gerry McCann appears in the former and latter - where was she? Behind the camera most probably.


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The Bruises on Kate's Arms Empty Re: The Bruises on Kate's Arms

Post by sharonl 15.09.19 12:38

What do the colors of a bruise mean?

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Bruises happen when small blood vessels in the skin are damaged. Over time, a bruise changes color as the blood under the skin breaks down, and as the bruise heals.
Bruising typically occurs when a person receives an injury to an area of their skin, such as from falling or bumping into something.

The blood vessels between the skin and other tissues in the body burst. The blood pools under the surface of the skin, causing a bruise. It is natural for a bruise to change color during the healing process.

Read on to learn more about the usual cycle of bruising, and when a person should see their doctor about a bruise, for example, when it does not heal, returns or the pain intensifies.

Bruise colors over time and their causes
A person may be able to estimate how old a bruise is from the color. As the body heals and breaks down the hemoglobin, or compound that gives blood its red color, the bruise will change in color. This is a regular part of the healing process.

However, skin color affects the appearance of a bruise. Those with medium skin tones had more red and yellow to their bruises, while darker skin tones displayed darker bruises.

During the healing process, a bruise will usually go through the following colors:

It often starts red because fresh, oxygen-rich blood has newly pooled underneath the skin.
After around 1–2 days, the blood begins to lose oxygen and change color. A bruise that is a few days old will often appear blue, purple, or even black.
In about 5–10 days, it turns a yellow or green color. These colors come from compounds called biliverdin and bilirubin that the body produces when it breaks down hemoglobin.
After 10–14 days, it will turn to a shade of yellowish-brown or light brown.
Finally, once the bruise has turned a light brown, it will begin to fade. Most bruises will disappear without treatment within about 2 weeks.
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The Bruises on Kate's Arms Empty Re: The Bruises on Kate's Arms

Post by sharonl 15.09.19 13:00

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Bruise interpretation: Tips for abuse investigationsIn abuse cases, there is no limit to the injuries a police officer or investigator might encounter, and one of the most common injuries seen is bruisingJul 30, 2013
Police officers and detectives frequently investigate abuse cases. In child abuse, elder abuse, and/or domestic abuse cases it’s not uncommon to deal with victims who are scared, unwilling, or unable to tell investigators what happened.

Victims may be reluctant or unable to share information with investigators for a variety of reasons. Some may be fearful of retaliation or further abuse as in a domestic violence case. Others may be unable to tell you what happened due to a loss of consciousness or in the case of an elderly victim, dementia. Others may be protecting their abuser from arrest and prosecution.

A valuable resource to have in the investigator’s tool box is a basic understanding of injuries and how they occur. The human body has the potential to offer investigators a great deal of information; knowing a little bit about wounds and wound patterns can help investigators draw some preliminary conclusions about a case, corroborate or dispel a victim or suspect’s story, and even suggest the possible weapon or object used to inflict an injury.

3 Variables to Consider
​In abuse cases, there is no limit to the injuries a police officer or investigator might encounter, and one of the most commonly seen injuries is bruising. This also happens to be one of the most common injuries victims try to dismiss or explain away, perhaps out of fear, reluctance, or even to protect their abuser.

Bruising involves the escape or hemorrhage of blood from ruptured blood vessels into the surrounding tissue. The resulting discoloration can usually be seen beneath the surface of the skin but, bruising is an injury that has many variables for investigators to consider.

1.) Location

• Large surface areas such as the back or buttocks may reveal more clues than those on a bony narrow structure such as a shin
• Skin is elastic; therefore, softer body parts may mold around the object at the time of impact or pressure and then return to its original state
• The contours of the body may concentrate or disperse the force used, affecting the appearance of a bruise
• Some bruises may be in deep muscle tissue, internal organs or even within the skull and not outwardly visible to police

2.) Force

• Force will vary at the time an injury is inflicted
• The body moves to deflect and/or absorb force
• Clothing can absorb and diffuse force
• The mark left from an object will vary according to its rigidity, flexibility and the force applied

3.) Age

• The age of a victim: The very young and the very old tend to bruise more easily
• The age of a bruise: Although there is no firm rule for determining the age of a bruise, there seems to be some consistency of bruise development over time:

A.) Colors of a bruise change from the outer perimeter inward
B.) Initially having a reddish/blue appearance
C.) Progressing quickly to purple/black
D.) Followed by a green and then yellow/brown as it heals
E.) Yellowing may be seen within approximately 7-10 days

• Most bruises will disappear within approximately 1-4 weeks

Differences Between Accidental and Abuse Bruises
Although everyone is capable of bumping into something or falling down and bruising themselves, those accidental injuries tend to follow a specific pattern. Such injuries may be seen on extremities such as hands, knees, elbows, or the bony protrusions of the face like eyebrow ridges or cheekbones.

Conversely, in abuse cases, police officers will typically see bruising to the face, mouth, lips, neck, back, ribs, buttocks, thighs, and genitals. Naturally, other areas of bruising may be observed, but those listed are commonly found in intentional injury cases.

Abusive bruising may be the result of a victim being punched, kicked, choked, squeezed or held down. Or, they may have been struck with a firm or flexible object ranging from a stick or bat to a belt or electrical cord (or any other striking implement you can think of).

By carefully scrutinizing a victim’s bruises, investigators may take away some valuable information.

Things to Look For

1.) Finger Pad Bruises

A.) Round or oval in shape
B.) Slightly larger than the fingertips due to skin flexibility
C.) Due to gripping, squeezing, poking, forceful restraint
D.) Commonly found on face, neck, thighs, arms
E.) Note: A kick or pressure from a barefoot can leave toe pad bruising just as one might see finger pad bruising

2.) Shoe Impressions

A.) A bruise may form reflecting the imprint of the sole of a shoe if it is distinct, as in a lugged pattern on a boot
B.) May leave a curved imprint bruise

3.) Wrap-around Bruises

A.) Bruises from accidental injury tend not to form in a wrapped appearance
B.) A bruise that wraps around a victim’s wrist, arm, neck or ankle may indicate force
C.) Look for thumb pad on one side and finger pads on the other

4.) Linear Bruising

A.) Bruising has many variables but they tend not to follow a linear pattern naturally
B.) Consider a striking implement as a cause for linear bruising
C.) May be seen on back, buttock, thighs or arms
D.) Linear bruises may appear “broken” on raised portions of the body if striking implement is solid; while a flexible object such as a belt may produce a more consistent and longer linear bruise

5.) Defensive Bruising

A.) Typically seen on extremities
B.) Forearms, upper arms, hands and even the feet and legs

The Importance of Documentation
Documenting and preserving the victim’s injuries is an important step in any case. In abuse cases, be sure to carefully describe the victim’s injuries (appearance and location) and have them photographed, preferably as soon as possible by a forensic technician for further use in the investigation or later in court.

Often, in abuse cases, police officers find themselves advocating for those who are unable to advocate for themselves. Interpreting a victim’s injuries is another investigative tool that can be used to determine what may have happened, confirm or dispel a victim or a suspect’s story and ultimately allow us to help the vulnerable, those who need us the most.
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The Bruises on Kate's Arms Empty Re: The Bruises on Kate's Arms

Post by Jill Havern 15.09.19 14:05

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In this photo below you can just about see some light bruising on the back of her writst (taken, presumably, the same day as the middle picture above as she's wearing the same clothes)
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And if you enlarge the bruise it's not as bad as in the first [middle] picture which suggests the first picture may have been 'doctored'

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The Bruises on Kate's Arms Empty Re: The Bruises on Kate's Arms

Post by Jill Havern 15.09.19 14:11

Some comments on the cmomm facebook group:
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The Bruises on Kate's Arms Empty Re: The Bruises on Kate's Arms

Post by PeterMac 15.09.19 15:00

The second of these photos is dated 9/5/7 on the original - from google images.
The first is not, so far as I can tell

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Is Kate sinistral / . If not, then it would not be normal to develop a big bruise on the Left forearm 
from striking something.  The upper arm bruising looks suspiciously like the result of being gripped tightly, 
perhaps whilst a particular debating point was being emphasised.
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The Bruises on Kate's Arms Empty Re: The Bruises on Kate's Arms

Post by Liz Eagles 15.09.19 18:07

PeterMac wrote:The second of these photos is dated 9/5/7 on the original - from google images.
The first is not, so far as I can tell

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Is Kate sinistral / . If not, then it would not be normal to develop a big bruise on the Left forearm 
from striking something.  The upper arm bruising looks suspiciously like the result of being gripped tightly, 
perhaps whilst a particular debating point was being emphasised.
The woman looks thin and battered to me.
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The Bruises on Kate's Arms Empty Re: The Bruises on Kate's Arms

Post by Doug D 15.09.19 18:17

The fingermarks and wrist bruises have always looked like restraint injuries to me, certainly not the result of banging something in frustration.
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The Bruises on Kate's Arms Empty Re: The Bruises on Kate's Arms

Post by Verdi 15.09.19 21:51

Flowers in the hair and everywhere..

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The Bruises on Kate's Arms Empty Re: The Bruises on Kate's Arms

Post by Verdi 15.09.19 22:07

12th May 2007..

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11th May 2007..

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The Bruises on Kate's Arms Empty Re: The Bruises on Kate's Arms

Post by ROSA 15.09.19 22:27

I don't think the bruises are doctored she may have used some sort of foundation to cover them up a sudden impulse comes to my mind. The thought of a very vain Kate harming herself deliberately I highly doubt. What on earth did Madeleine go through.

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For Paulo Sargento, the thesis that Gonçalo Amaral revealed at first hand to "SP" that the blanket could have been used in a funeral ceremony at the Luz chapel "is very interesting".
 
And he adds: "In reality, when the McCanns went to Oprah's Show, the blanket was mentioned. At a given moment, when Oprah tells Kate that she heard her mention a blanket several times, Kate argued that a mother who misses a child always wants to know if she is comfortable, if she is warm, and added, referring to Maddie, that sometimes she asked herself if the person who had taken her would cover her up with her little blanket (but the blanket was on the bed after Maddie, supposedly, disappeared!!!).
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The Bruises on Kate's Arms Empty Re: The Bruises on Kate's Arms

Post by Verdi 16.09.19 1:07

6th May 2007..

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7th May 2007..

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11th May 2007..

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No apparent bruising.

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The Bruises on Kate's Arms Empty Re: The Bruises on Kate's Arms

Post by NickE 16.09.19 6:21

Fiona Payne's Rog interview:
"Erm, she was angry, really angry, tut, punching walls, kicking walls, she was covered in bruises the next day, because she just didn’t know what, what else to do. She was angry at herself, she kept saying ‘I’ve let her down. We’ve let her down Gerry’, you know, ‘We should have been here’. Erm, tut"


Kate in "Madeleine":
"For the first time I noticed the ugly purple, blue and blackbruises on the sides of my hands, wrists and forearms. I was shocked. Gerry reminded me of how I'd been banging my clenched fists on the veranda railing and the apartment walls the night before. I could only vaguely remember it."

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She said she had never touched that window and the cleaning lady assured that she had cleaned it on the previous day....it doesn't add up"
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The Bruises on Kate's Arms Empty Re: The Bruises on Kate's Arms

Post by Tony Bennett 16.09.19 8:57

Thank you very much for all the responses to date.

I accept [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]'s comments that the photos originally shown on Twitter by @Babs1 are not the original ones and have either been degraded whilst being copied and copied, or possibly even manipulated. 

However, we are left with these facts:

1 There was bruising

2 The bruising was on the wrists and not on the hands

3 The McCanns have admitted that the bruises were 'purple, blue and black' (thank you as always [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] for adding those most useful quotes above)

4 The explanation given for how the bruises occurred is unconvincing

5 We still don't know how and when these bruises occurred.

This is forensic evidence of something that occurred that week.

Let us continue discussing it

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Dr Martin Roberts: "The evidence is that these are the pjyamas Madeleine wore on holiday in Praia da Luz. They were photographed and the photo handed to a press agency, who released it on 8 May, as the search for Madeleine continued. The McCanns held up these same pyjamas at two press conferences on 5 & 7June 2007. How could Madeleine have been abducted?"

Amelie McCann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".  

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The Bruises on Kate's Arms Empty Re: The Bruises on Kate's Arms

Post by ROSA 16.09.19 10:21

Not looking good for Kate in my eyes the dogs alerted to cadaver on her clothes and she has these grotesque bruises.

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For Paulo Sargento, the thesis that Gonçalo Amaral revealed at first hand to "SP" that the blanket could have been used in a funeral ceremony at the Luz chapel "is very interesting".
 
And he adds: "In reality, when the McCanns went to Oprah's Show, the blanket was mentioned. At a given moment, when Oprah tells Kate that she heard her mention a blanket several times, Kate argued that a mother who misses a child always wants to know if she is comfortable, if she is warm, and added, referring to Maddie, that sometimes she asked herself if the person who had taken her would cover her up with her little blanket (but the blanket was on the bed after Maddie, supposedly, disappeared!!!).
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Post by tiki 23.09.19 18:38

In my opinion the bruises do not look consistent with 'banging clenched fists' because there doesn't appear to be any injury to her hands only the wrist area. They are recent or they'd be yellowing so how did she get them? Maybe Gerry restrained her when she began self harming because of her guilty conscience.  It does seem odd behaviour for a mother whose child is missing. The ONLY behaviour I would expect under those circumstances would be frantic searching and this is what we did NOT see from them at the time. At any rate Ms Healey/McCanns usual behaviour is to show more concern for herself even during the early days of what they themselves referred to as 'the situation'.
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The Bruises on Kate's Arms Empty Injury to wrists but not hands

Post by worriedmum 23.09.19 21:54

tiki wrote:In my opinion the bruises do not look consistent with 'banging clenched fists' because there doesn't appear to be any injury to her hands only the wrist area. They are recent or they'd be yellowing so how did she get them? Maybe Gerry restrained her when she began self harming because of her guilty conscience.  It does seem odd behaviour for a mother whose child is missing. The ONLY behaviour I would expect under those circumstances would be frantic searching and this is what we did NOT see from them at the time. At any rate Ms Healey/McCanns usual behaviour is to show more concern for herself even during the early days of what they themselves referred to as 'the situation'.
 If you smashed your hands that hard, surely you would burst blood vessels in your fingers.

And are the beds on the photos taken by the PJ the same ones that appear in the cadaver dogs' film?  So NOT. 'smashed'?
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Post by Verdi 23.09.19 22:08

I don't see any evidence of bruising.

The images used are poor quality. I've posted-up quite a few photographs taken, or supplied by, press agencies after the 3rd May 2007 - not one shows any evidence of bruising.

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Post by worriedmum 23.09.19 23:05

Verdi wrote:I don't see any evidence of bruising.

The images used are poor quality.  I've posted-up quite a few photographs taken, or supplied by, press agencies after the 3rd May 2007 - not one shows any evidence of bruising.
What do you think of Kate's 'explanation' for them , then?
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Post by ROSA 23.09.19 23:15

Verdi wrote:I don't see any evidence of bruising.

The images used are poor quality.  I've posted-up quite a few photographs taken, or supplied by, press agencies after the 3rd May 2007 - not one shows any evidence of bruising.
Bruises can be covered up easily with make up

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For Paulo Sargento, the thesis that Gonçalo Amaral revealed at first hand to "SP" that the blanket could have been used in a funeral ceremony at the Luz chapel "is very interesting".
 
And he adds: "In reality, when the McCanns went to Oprah's Show, the blanket was mentioned. At a given moment, when Oprah tells Kate that she heard her mention a blanket several times, Kate argued that a mother who misses a child always wants to know if she is comfortable, if she is warm, and added, referring to Maddie, that sometimes she asked herself if the person who had taken her would cover her up with her little blanket (but the blanket was on the bed after Maddie, supposedly, disappeared!!!).
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The Bruises on Kate's Arms Empty Re: The Bruises on Kate's Arms

Post by ROSA 23.09.19 23:18

4 The existence of the bruises has in fact been admitted by Kate and Gerry McCann, who gave the explanation that "Kate had been banging her fists in anger and frustration on the metal bedstead" (not the exact words, but something very similar)

Proof they exsisted

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For Paulo Sargento, the thesis that Gonçalo Amaral revealed at first hand to "SP" that the blanket could have been used in a funeral ceremony at the Luz chapel "is very interesting".
 
And he adds: "In reality, when the McCanns went to Oprah's Show, the blanket was mentioned. At a given moment, when Oprah tells Kate that she heard her mention a blanket several times, Kate argued that a mother who misses a child always wants to know if she is comfortable, if she is warm, and added, referring to Maddie, that sometimes she asked herself if the person who had taken her would cover her up with her little blanket (but the blanket was on the bed after Maddie, supposedly, disappeared!!!).
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The Bruises on Kate's Arms Empty Re: The Bruises on Kate's Arms

Post by Verdi 24.09.19 16:17

Bruises can be covered up easily with make up

What - panstick big grin ?

There is an alternative view .... she didn't have any bruises to cover, wouldn't it be simpler to wear something with long sleeves?

The existence of the bruises has in fact been admitted by Kate and Gerry McCann, who gave the explanation that "Kate had been banging her fists in anger and frustration on the metal bedstead" (not the exact words, but something very similar)

Proof they exsisted

Do you really think the word of Gerry and Kate McCann constitutes 'proof' of anything - really?

Oh dear oh dear of dear.


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