The McCanns family trip to Sagres 30th April

russiandoll wrote:

Miraflores wrote:Perhaps the OC only started using bracelets after 4th May when they realised that they needed to clean up their act?

From Cat Baker's Rogatory interview:

“I got to know Gerry and Kate McCann on the Sunday morning, 29.04.2007, in the Minis Club. They brought the children and as it was their first day of holidays the normal procedure was that they were allocated a childcare worker. I had previously written the children’s bracelets which included their name, allergies and relevant information. I stayed with Madeleine, 3 years old, in my group (Minis Club that week) together with E***, daughter of Jane Tanner”.

so where is the id bracelet on the tennis court photo?

exactly! according to FP she was actually on the tennis courts as an activity with the mini club!! Very odd!

[quoteEarly on - it may still be traceable - one of the nannies said she'd never noticed Maddie's eye.
As for the rest - I don't think the creche sheets were checked at all. Where were they? If it was the case that the nanny would come forward and take the child, see the parent sign and the same when she was collected - then it's more difficult.
But if one would know where the sheets were located and how far away from the actual signing in the nanny usually was - it will be clear I expect.
On neither of the photographs of Maddie is she wearing a rubber bracelet - wasn't that something that was done? I'm thinking that she never was in the creche at all.
[/quote]

Anyone involved with Quality Assurance knows all about procedures in an organisation. To be Quality Assured the onus is on the organisation to demonstrate that the procedures exist, are understood and adhered to. Whether or not Mark Warner were Quality Assured the principle still holds. Could MW demonstrate this if asked? If not then the records are not to be relied upon as anything could have been going on.

russiandoll wrote:Kate gives a reasonably full run down of activities from arrival 28th April until evening May 2nd [ she then devotes an entire chapter to May 3rd].

If the routine of their days in PDL had been disturbed by a trip out of the resort, why on earth does she not record this trip in her book? I have just posted in the tapas phone autopsy section a comment on the lack of info about 30 April as a memeber asked what Kate had said in her book about the activities on this particular date.
She says nothing at all about anything until evening when she briefly describes a trip to the supermarket for essentials then mentions tapas evening meal.
NO RECORD AT ALL OF WHAT SHE HER HUSBAND COMPANIONS OR CHILDREN DID DAYTIME 30 APRIL.

That's more or less two 'dead' days. The 2nd is skipped over very lightly (Dr. Roberts - thirty days). If it wasn't Sagres, was it Zaival Beach where a waiter insisted he'd seen the whole family at Easter?
Or was it mysterious Burgau.
I haven't paid much attention to the Gorrods, but does the 30th coincide with their two unaccounted days?

At a later date Amaral said that according to the phone pings of MO and I think ROB, they must have had a car - this was post 3/5/07.

tigger wrote:

russiandoll wrote:Kate gives a reasonably full run down of activities from arrival 28th April until evening May 2nd [ she then devotes an entire chapter to May 3rd].

If the routine of their days in PDL had been disturbed by a trip out of the resort, why on earth does she not record this trip in her book? I have just posted in the tapas phone autopsy section a comment on the lack of info about 30 April as a memeber asked what Kate had said in her book about the activities on this particular date.
She says nothing at all about anything until evening when she briefly describes a trip to the supermarket for essentials then mentions tapas evening meal.
NO RECORD AT ALL OF WHAT SHE HER HUSBAND COMPANIONS OR CHILDREN DID DAYTIME 30 APRIL.

That's more or less two 'dead' days. The 2nd is skipped over very lightly (Dr. Roberts - thirty days). If it wasn't Sagres, was it Zaival Beach where a waiter insisted he'd seen the whole family at Easter?
Or was it mysterious Burgau.
I haven't paid much attention to the Gorrods, but does the 30th coincide with their two unaccounted days?

At a later date Amaral said that according to the phone pings of MO and I think ROB, they must have had a car - this was post 3/5/07.

It seems that perhaps a lot of 'sharing' went on on this holiday, buggies and pushchairs for one thing but it may be that the Gorrods car was hired and used by certain members of the group and they all 'pooled' the cost of petrol etc or sported them a dinner and drinks on evening?
Sorry but where can I find this supposed waiter statement about seeing them at easter?
And why is Burgau so mysterious?
It would appear that with the creche record and tapas sheets now being looked closely at, the 30th and possibly the 29th are two days very much in question.
Hope someone can enlighten me on the above - although not sure the brain can take much more!

Also slightly off the creche topic - this is one that will take you back 4 years or more. I remember seeing a photo of GM pushing a double buggy and it was covered in a dark type of netting - someone had enlarged it and there were questions as to what was inside the buggy - can anyone remember it and can you point me in the right direction for it - it was very interesting and I will keep searching!

There you go! https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t3470-zaival-beach?highlight=zaival+beach

Hummingbird, here's a link to images of two separate buggies.

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/KM_GM%20(4).jpg

Jean wrote:Hummingbird, here's a link to images of two separate buggies.

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/KM_GM%20(4).jpg

Now if he could only get Kate to wear a burka....

I find this part of the McCann story very confusing indeed. Can someone please clarify exactly what time the McCanns allegedly went to Sagres on the 30th April? For how long? With or without their three children? And how they went there?

What I surmise is that they were in the beach idea and someone unconnected to the McCanns, Nuno Lorennco, happened to take a photo of suspicious goings on involving the children (or Madeline in particular) and a blonde woman with a Renault Clio (who may or may not have been Michaela).

Let us not forget that Robert Murat arrived suddenly back to Portugal on Monday 30th April and Tuesday 1st May was a public holiday. Robert Murat, having accounted many times for his movements since leaving the UK on the morning of 30th April, could he have possibly been involved in events as early as 30th April?

There are three points that I wish to pick up on here concerning two photographs and Robert Murats use of a mobile phone. There are two photos which seems to me to be of particular relevance - the once taken by Nuno Lorenco and a second by the McCanns of Madeleine apparently beside the swimming pool area on the afternoon of Thursday 3rd May. Either these two photos exist or they do not. Both photos will have a digital number and any tampering with the photos can be established from photos taken before and afterwards.

Has anyone ever seen the photo allegedly taken by Nuno Lorenco? Have the Police ever seen it? If not, then question marks must hang over the credibility of what Nuno Lorenzo saw (or did not see) on 30th April.

Furthermore, it should be possible to analyze the swimming pool photo of Madeline to establish whether it was indeed taken on the afternoon of Thursday 3rd May or taken two days before, as has been hinted at by the Statement of Rachel Oldfield.

As regards the mobile phone of Robert Murat, this was switched off and on numerous times between the time of his arrival on the morning of 30th April and upto around 11.15pm on the night of Thursday 3rd May and his movements during this time period have never been fully explained. We can perhaps excuse Kate and Gerry McCann for switching off their phones while on vacation and not expecting any significant calls (assuming they are innocent in all of this) but Robert Murat was a 'man with a mission' and had a lot of urgent business to attend to even on a Public Holiday, something he knew of course and could not overlook, because he lived in Portugal most of the time!

I suggest therefore that not only the actual calls and SMS made from his phone but use of the tracking signals from phone calls would help to establish where he was at key times. I have faith in both the British and Portugese Police and I suspect that they have already followed this line of enquiry but not all evidence has been put in the public domain.

It is also critical to understand whether Gerry McCann had ever visited Portugal previously and how he could have developed such a network of contacts on whom to call for such mountainous assistance. Much more than a phone call made to old buddy now in civil service at Whitehall.

I am at a loss to understand what could have happened to Madeline other than an accidental death at the Apartment which the Tapas 9 plus Creche and Ocean Club staff plus other Guests would conspire to make one of the biggest cover ups in legal history. In other words, how could so many people cover up something which happened to her before the night of 3rd May?

I find this part of the McCann story very confusing indeed. Can someone please clarify exactly what time the McCanns allegedly went to Sagres on the 30th April? For how long? With or without their three children? And how they went there?

What I surmise is that they were in the beach idea and someone unconnected to the McCanns, Nuno Lorennco, happened to take a photo of suspicious goings on involving the children (or Madeline in particular) and a blonde woman with a Renault Clio (who may or may not have been Michaela).

Let us not forget that Robert Murat arrived suddenly back to Portugal on Monday 30th April and Tuesday 1st May was a public holiday. Robert Murat, having accounted many times for his movements since leaving the UK on the morning of 30th April, could he have possibly been involved in events as early as 30th April?

It is confusing and Ive tried putting it together:

On April 30th Madeleine was signed into creche by kate mccann at 1515, she dropped the twins off at 1525 then went back and got Madeleine out of the creche at 1530….just 15 mins later

The twins were later signed out at 17.20, Ella O'Brien was signed in at 1600 but never signed out…nor were any of the other kids in Madeleine's creche signed out that afternoon, just Madeleine…did something happen?

A week later on 12th May 2007, reports in all the newspaper media 'claim' that the mccanns went to Sagres beach that afternoon which is 20 miles from PDL. This gives the mccanns a window of 100 mins to get to Sagres, go to the beach and get back to PDL, totally unlikely. And they never had a car. That very same day Nuno Lourenco de Jesus claimed of a man photographing his daughter on the beach and trying to snatch her later in a cafe in Sagres. The newspaper media 'claim' goes on to link Nuno Lourenco de Jesus child snatchers to the same ones caught on CCTV at a petrol station on the 4th May 2007, further claiming Nuno Lourenco de Jesus identified 2 of the 3 suspects at the petrol station as the same ones who were photographing his daughter in Sagres 4 days earlier

The newspaper media 'claim' goes on even further to link the same Nuno Lourenco de Jesus "child snatchers" as matching a description of the woman given by a witness who spotted someone acting suspiciously outside Madeleine’s bedroom on the night of her disappearance

Now for the facts:
Nuno Lourenco de Jesus statement of the "child snatchers" photographing & snatching attempt of his daughter is true. However there is no record of him identifying them as the same ones spotted in the petrol station. He identified his child snatchers from CCTV images taken in a FNAC shop in Chiado, Lisbon. Robert Murat's Uncle Ralph Eveleigh also provided CCTV footage of the couple visiting in his Beach Bar in Burgau. Coincidence?

There is no record or proof of the mccanns being in Sagres that afternoon. All there appears to be is a 'shopkeeper' (which could be anyone) in the newspaper articles claiming to have seen the mccanns in Sagres that afternoon, with a buggy when they didn't have one nor were the twins with them either as they were in creche. In the bewk, kate mccann makes NO REFERENCE to what they did during the daytime on 30th April, no mention of Sagres no mention about anything this day. This day seems to have been totally erased from memory. She only briefly describes a trip to the supermarket for essentials then mentions tapas evening meal. As do all the other tapes members evade this day and mention only about the tapas meal "they think"

Who were the Nuno Lourenco de Jesus child snatchers?
A Polish couple who were staying in an apartment in Burgau. The apartment block in Burgau have links to Robert Murat - his father's company built the block and are rumoured to manage the block. Yet another coincidence

From Interpol:
Using the "PAX-LIST" (passenger list), persons in seats around the KROKOWSKI couple were shown pictures of Madeleine and all stated that that couple was not accompanied by any child.

From IP Warsaw:
- At 07h10 this morning (6 May) the couple were interviewed in their home apartment, which was searched and the missing child was not found. After arriving in Berlin they left by train at 21h22 arriving home this morning at 06h45.

Summary:
Nuno Lourenco de Jesus seems to be genuine with his statement, however he was simply mistaken who the Polish couple were or trying to do imo. This is about the only element of truth. The rest seems to have been made up, linked up, connected up, to add weight to the mccanns abduction theory. As the Sagres claims are in all the newspapers then it would appear to have been fed to them by the mccann machine. What so stands out is on the 30th April there are very strange entries on the creche sheets for that afternoon and the tapas members erased memory of this very same afternoon….what was going on 30th April that needed to be whooshed from the chapter in kate mccanns bewk which every day of the holiday was described to some extent? Why did robert murat suddenly book a flight back to PDL that same day at midnight for a flight a few hours later? Anyone would think that something important happened….something that could be the truth of the lie?

Polish Couple from CCTV FNAC shop in Chiado, Lisbon


Petrol Station CCTV


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/NUNO_LOURENCO.htm

petrol station child looks like a 2 year old to me ,not one that could be maddie ,joyce1938

The Sagres article that was in the Express on 11th May 2007 says "Kate and Gerry McCann were driven at speed from their holiday apartment to a police station in Portimao to help officers examine the tapes after Mrs McCann again went to the local church to pray for her daughter."

Was this the car ride kate mccann complains about later in her bewk that the PJ were driving too fast?

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id30.html

In the Sun article by John Askill, they appear to be the only ones who add to the story "The dad, Numo Lourenco, says Maddie was one of the tots snapped."

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/32419/Maddie-was-snapped-by-perv.html#ixzz26bApopWF

On Pamalam's Guest Book page 10:

Date: 3/9/2009, 9:49 am, GMT +1
Name: Nuno De Jesus
Email: dej*s*s@********.de
Location: gremani
Number: 124
Thanks for your good work

Nuno Lourenco


Reply written by Pamalam at 3/9/2009, 9:52 am, GMT

Hi Nuno
Many thanks for your message


http://users4.smartgb.com/g/g.php?a=s&i=g43-12642-66&m=10&p=10

Thanks for those who responded to my earlier posting. Forgive me if I am still confused.

Nuno Lorenco comes across as credible and I would tend to think he might be mistaken but he was clearly in Sagres on the afternoon of 30th April and saw people taking photos of young children (including his own?) which obviously aroused his suspicions. I am not sure that I have understood this part.

Who took photos of who? Lorenco of what we now understand to be the Polish couple taking photos themselves of children who were not their own? or just a photo of the blonde woman? Details of the Vehicle Renault Clio led Police to an Apartment in Burgau. The fact that the Building might have been owned by Robert Murats UNCLE is surely irrelevant - isnt it?

As for the McCanns, surely it is just a simple case of a child throwing a tantrum or something like that and a parent collecting the child 15 minutes after signing in and taking the child (Madeleine) back to the Apartment. The Twins were in the Creche. Why on earth would the McCanns have gone to Sagres on that day and at that time without all their children? Kate McCann makes no reference to Sagres in her book and I can only conclude, subject to what will obviously be gone into at a later date on Inquiry or Case re-opening, that the McCanns never left Praia de la Luz between 3.30pm and 5.20pm on that afternoon of 30th April.

is there any reference to the children having their 'high tea' on that afternoon?

There has been reference in the 'reporting' to a shopkeeper but this is totally unsubstantiated for want of a witness statement.

I think the Post response is correct that the events as we might understand them on 30th April at Sagres have been used to 'beef up' the idea of suspicions for child abduction. Oddly, in my view, Kate McCann makes no reference to this whatsoever in her book (the Seventh Witness if we can be bold and say that) but she does credence to Carole Trammer Fenn, niece of Pamela, who sighted a man leaving the back entrance of 5B between 4pm and 5pm on the afternoon of 3rd May.

I have yet to understand Robert Murats haste in returning to Portugal but I can comprehend that Jennifer Murat may well have summoned her Son to return to Portugal late into the night of 30th April, that it was she who collected Robert on the morning of Tuesday 1st April (the public holiday) and that her movements between 7.30pm and 10pm in regard to buying a few groceries at the local supermarket, have not been fully explained. Furthermore, Luz is a small place, a thousand people live there if i read correctly. Is is not inconceivable that Jennifer Murat and Pamela Fenn could or would have known each other, if long term residents there. I am not suggesting that they actually did and that it has any relevance to the disappearance of Madeleine but is is a point to consider when the chips are down and the McCanns needed to contact someone urgently between 7.15pm and 8.30pm to act as a go between in the removal and concealment of the dead body of Madeleine.

Today, friday Nov 1st, travelling in Portugal, I chanced upon two Dutch senior citizen couples from the Algarve. Upper middle class.

After a while, I asked them for their opinion on the Maddie affair.

Without prompting they told me:

One of the Dutch couples had run into the McCann couple at a shopping centre or mall in Guia, while they were paying for their purchases at the Sara (?) shop. 
The McCs were in the company of a number of people, speaking with each other in English. 
They were pushing a twin buggy, with twin children, a boy and a girl inside.

This had happened days before Maddie was reported missing.
When they saw the english-speaking couple on TV, they immediately recognised them as the couple with the twins in the buggy from the shopping mall. 

They were surprised to learn the missing child was another child of theirs, as they had only seen the toddlers in the twin buggy, and no sign of a third child. 

This had happened in the afternoon in the town/village of Guia in the Algarve.

The Dutch who told me this had considered going to the police with this information, buth they had thought that it would not make a difference one way or the other. 

All of them figured the child would be long gone (dead) 

In fact, the other couple had heard so from someone who came to work at their place in the morning of the 4th of May, saying that the parents were involved. 

Pretty early, isn´t it?

Portia wrote:Today, friday Nov 1st, travelling in Portugal, I chanced upon two Dutch senior citizen couples from the Algarve. Upper middle class.

After a while, I asked them for their opinion on the Maddie affair.

Without prompting they told me:

One of the Dutch couples had run into the McCann couple at a shopping centre or mall in Guia, while they were paying for their purchases at the Sara (?) shop. 
The McCs were in the company of a number of people, speaking with each other in English. 
They were pushing a twin buggy, with twin children, a boy and a girl inside.

This had happened days before Maddie was reported missing.
When they saw the english-speaking couple on TV, they immediately recognised them as the couple with the twins in the buggy from the shopping mall. 

They were surprised to learn the missing child was another child of theirs, as they had only seen the toddlers in the twin buggy, and no sign of a third child. 

This had happened in the afternoon in the town/village of Guia in the Algarve.

The Dutch who told me this had considered going to the police with this information, buth they had thought that it would not make a difference one way or the other. 

All of them figured the child would be long gone (dead) 

In fact, the other couple had heard so from someone who came to work at their place in the morning of the 4th of May, saying that the parents were involved. 

Pretty early, isn´t it?

And they have still not spoken to the police?

Sockpuppet wrote:

Portia wrote:Today, friday Nov 1st, travelling in Portugal, I chanced upon two Dutch senior citizen couples from the Algarve. Upper middle class.

After a while, I asked them for their opinion on the Maddie affair.

Without prompting they told me:

One of the Dutch couples had run into the McCann couple at a shopping centre or mall in Guia, while they were paying for their purchases at the Sara (?) shop. 
The McCs were in the company of a number of people, speaking with each other in English. 
They were pushing a twin buggy, with twin children, a boy and a girl inside.

This had happened days before Maddie was reported missing.
When they saw the english-speaking couple on TV, they immediately recognised them as the couple with the twins in the buggy from the shopping mall. 

They were surprised to learn the missing child was another child of theirs, as they had only seen the toddlers in the twin buggy, and no sign of a third child. 

This had happened in the afternoon in the town/village of Guia in the Algarve.

The Dutch who told me this had considered going to the police with this information, buth they had thought that it would not make a difference one way or the other. 

All of them figured the child would be long gone (dead) 

In fact, the other couple had heard so from someone who came to work at their place in the morning of the 4th of May, saying that the parents were involved. 

Pretty early, isn´t it?

And they have still not spoken to the police?

No

Guia is on the N 125, to the east of Pdl and Portimao, near a famous golf course and  in the direction of the Spanish border (Huelva)

To go to Sagres they had to have the use of a car. 


There's also the waiter at Zaival beach who saw them allegedly at Easter. 

So in Guia they were near a famous golf course. Gerry loves golf, went for a couple of trips to Portugal just for the golf. 


hmmm. 

Portia wrote:

Sockpuppet wrote:

Portia wrote:Today, friday Nov 1st, travelling in Portugal, I chanced upon two Dutch senior citizen couples from the Algarve. Upper middle class.

After a while, I asked them for their opinion on the Maddie affair.

Without prompting they told me:

One of the Dutch couples had run into the McCann couple at a shopping centre or mall in Guia, while they were paying for their purchases at the Sara (?) shop. 
The McCs were in the company of a number of people, speaking with each other in English. 
They were pushing a twin buggy, with twin children, a boy and a girl inside.

This had happened days before Maddie was reported missing.
When they saw the english-speaking couple on TV, they immediately recognised them as the couple with the twins in the buggy from the shopping mall. 

They were surprised to learn the missing child was another child of theirs, as they had only seen the toddlers in the twin buggy, and no sign of a third child. 

This had happened in the afternoon in the town/village of Guia in the Algarve.

The Dutch who told me this had considered going to the police with this information, buth they had thought that it would not make a difference one way or the other. 

All of them figured the child would be long gone (dead) 

In fact, the other couple had heard so from someone who came to work at their place in the morning of the 4th of May, saying that the parents were involved. 

Pretty early, isn´t it?

And they have still not spoken to the police?

No

Guia is on the N 125, to the east of Pdl and Portimao, near a famous golf course and  in the direction of the Spanish border (Huelva)

In the Netherlands, the case is just a side-line; nobody cares very much and, like I said, these two couples were convinced little Maddie is dead and nothing could bring her back. 

They were nonplussed -puzzled- hearing about the existence of this forum and other fora, and the number of people who are unraveling every bit of info we are being fed on a day to day basis. 

The way they told me -conversationally- was: 'Ja, die zijn we nog tegengekomen, weet je nog, met die twee kinderen in zo'n dubbel kinderwagentje, zo'n buggy; dat was toen in Guia, in dat winkelcentrum, daar stonden ze toen hun boodschappen bij Sara af te rekenen met een stel andere mensen' translating as:  yeah, we ran into them, remember, with those two kids in a double buggy; it was in Guia, it was, in that shopping centre, they were there at the till paying for their purchases at Saras', and they were there in the company of some other people' 

I told them this was new information, as there are no records of any visit to the east with or without Maddie previous to her disappearance; only to the west, to Sagres. 

It might explain the trip to Huelva, all things considered: the poor child was left somewhere to the east, along the N 125, and her resting place was checked on the Huelva trip. Who knows? God only knows. 

This whole case is getting more far fetched by the day

Wat een verhaal.
What a story.
They should at least tell the police ...

Wasn't there a day that one of the other couples took mad to give the parents a break ,so they may have gone out with just the babies?joyce1938

If I remember correctly, that sounds like the holiday in 2005 with the Gaspars, the Paynes and others.

Madeleine was left with the Paynes for the day, I think.

I just recall which holiday that took place ,you may be right,thanks for reply  joyce1938

Châtelaine wrote:Wat een verhaal.
What a story.
They should at least tell the police ...

I agree, told them so

Checked on local (Coimbra) mall today at the Zara, not Sara, outlet: according to staff there is no Zara at Guia, the closest is in Faro. 
They do operate ATMs, not just cash
Upmarket fashion store

Just shows you have to do your homework first and only then put your info on the forum. 

Blooper, sorry!

Don't apologise, Portia.
Oh, and Zara, yes, I know them well. Bought my all-time-favourite shoulder bag there in Cannes some 10-years-ago and it's still "alive" and being admired. The best-ever I bought was a Chanel. Unfortunately my dogs at the time had good taste too and ate it ...