Re: The McCanns family trip to Sagres 30th April

by Upsy Daisy 23.10.11 8:44

Here is a link I have found to Pamalam's Gerry McCann's blogs. Scroll down to Day 37 where he makes reference to a trip to Sagres with the family. Note the discrepancy in the day/date.

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/DAYS_1_to_50.htm

by **tigger** 23.10.11 8:58

Upsy Daisy wrote:Here is a link I have found to Pamalam's Gerry McCann's blogs. Scroll down to Day 37 where he makes reference to a trip to Sagres with the family. Note the discrepancy in the day/date.

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/DAYS_1_to_50.htm

Interesting that he muddles the dates. The second Sagres trip is certainly of interest considering the unusual number of family and friends there.

I'd better put the link here, doubtless there are others. http://mccannfundfraud.info/2008/12/the-car-hired-5-weeks-after-madeleines-disappearance/

by Upsy Daisy 23.10.11 9:10

Note how he makes mention of the fact that 'after' the Moroccan trip (and obviously the Sagres trip) that they must 'take some time' to reflect emotionally etc. Mmm....some mourning time perhaps??

by **tigger** 23.10.11 9:39

Upsy Daisy wrote:Note how he makes mention of the fact that 'after' the Moroccan trip (and obviously the Sagres trip) that they must 'take some time' to reflect emotionally etc. Mmm....some mourning time perhaps??

Also the little mention of the abductor height between 5'7" and 5'11" - that's the difference between a fairly short and 1" short of 6' man.

I'm interested in the date discrepancy: if Maddie died on the 1st, then 40 days would be 9th of June. Is 40 days important in mourning terms?Gerry says 40 days from disappearance on the 12th, but the 9th was the family do at Sagres.
Imo, as far as their consciences go, they could have left Maddie alone that night, (have to see if it was the same night they were at Chaplins) without giving her a sleeping draught. So to calm her down, a big dose which could be fatal. A perfect scenario for LIHOP (letting it happen on purpose).
Maddie could in any case already have been 'ill' so others were prepared.
It's also interesting that the 2nd of May disappeared from the agenda altogether (see Dr. Roberts on that).
The 2nd May was a Wednesday, the day the cleaner would come. I believe she stated she'd been and cleaned the windows, where on Thursday night only Kate's fingerprints were found.

Added from Wikepedia although for Orthodox Catholic church but: Special prayers are held on the third, ninth, and 40th days after death; the third, sixth and ninth months
3rd/4th, Kate and Gerry ask to pray in church.
9th/10th?
40 days: Sagres family gathering.

by Upsy Daisy 23.10.11 9:49

Yes, that would make it 40 days. I have to say, the theory I found most plausible was that she died the night of all the crying that Mrs Fenn heard and which stopped abruptly after they came home, which I believe was the 1st(as far as Mrs Fenn is concerned). So how would this trip on the 30th to Sagres be possible with Madeleine OR are we suggesting that the trip was made prior to a planned death whereby they checked out the area for her burial? I think I am may be confusing myself now. The creche records on 30th and subsequently could have obviously been faked/signed by person X on behalf and of course the kids all looking similar no-one would notice. His discrepancy in dates could be very telling, I agree. I need to think more about this so I can get it right in my head. Why would he make this mistake? Also he was, as per usual, referring to planning things in the future, when of course we all know, Madeleine 'could be found any time'.

by Upsy Daisy 23.10.11 9:53

Forgot to say, re the height, yes, why would you not just say 6ft ?? Very specific, considering it was only a passing glance at someone, from a distance. Very odd.

by Upsy Daisy 23.10.11 9:54

sorry, brain's not in gear today.. why not say EITHER 5'7 OR 6ft... there is a marked difference like you said, between a tall and short man!

by **tigger** 23.10.11 10:09

Upsy Daisy wrote:Yes, that would make it 40 days. I have to say, the theory I found most plausible was that she died the night of all the crying that Mrs Fenn heard and which stopped abruptly after they came home, which I believe was the 1st(as far as Mrs Fenn is concerned). So how would this trip on the 30th to Sagres be possible with Madeleine OR are we suggesting that the trip was made prior to a planned death whereby they checked out the area for her burial? I think I am may be confusing myself now. The creche records on 30th and subsequently could have obviously been faked/signed by person X on behalf and of course the kids all looking similar no-one would notice. His discrepancy in dates could be very telling, I agree. I need to think more about this so I can get it right in my head. Why would he make this mistake? Also he was, as per usual, referring to planning things in the future, when of course we all know, Madeleine 'could be found any time'.

I do believe in premeditation. So if it happened on the 1st, which would fit very well, then there was preparation in the form of Maddie being ill, never been in the creche at all.
I keep on saying that LIHOP is most likely, simply because I know people like that and have experienced their machinations. It's never their fault when the worst happens.
As far as the faith goes - we now have some correlation: the third day, the 40th day (Sagres) and three months (Huelva - where they meant to go on the 1st, but moved it to the 2nd).

I don't think she was buried in Sagres. But perhaps was still there? Imo someone else transported her to Huelva some time in June/July. It would be useful to know from which date onwards the Renault was being aired. The PJ know, I'm sure.

Love your signature: also hate 'bored of' journalists are using this as well now, o tempora o mores.

by Upsy Daisy 23.10.11 10:15

Aah, also, the Huelva trip was postponed wasn't it, due to a questionable stomach bug that G apparently came down with, which meant they travelled to Huelva on a date which turned out to be a public holiday so was perhaps a bit of a wasted trip ( mmm....). If I'm correct, K makes mention of this in her book, that they changed the date of the trip. So, are we saying that Huelva for body disposal then (which I think sounds plausible although trying to detach my heart from my body whilst saying so). I said I would but haven't so far looked into what these acid baths are all about and how people get access to them. I shall try to find out more. The McCanns family trip to Sagres 30th April - Page 3 160807

The McCanns family trip to Sagres 30th April - Page 3 160807

by Upsy Daisy 23.10.11 10:18

p.s. I noted from pictures I looked at of Sagres (on the 'net) that there is a church atop a rocky hill in Sagres). Did they visit this church? I recall K mentioning rocks, Rocha Negra (albeit in PdL). Maybe some indirect reference. Wonder if there is a crypt there for storage.

by **tigger** 23.10.11 10:31

Upsy Daisy wrote:Aah, also, the Huelva trip was postponed wasn't it, due to a questionable stomach bug that G apparently came down with, which meant they travelled to Huelva on a date which turned out to be a public holiday so was perhaps a bit of a wasted trip ( mmm....). If I'm correct, K makes mention of this in her book, that they changed the date of the trip. So, are we saying that Huelva for body disposal then (which I think sounds plausible although trying to detach my heart from my body whilst saying so). I said I would but haven't so far looked into what these acid baths are all about and how people get access to them. I shall try to find out more.

No, I don't think they even moved the body from the flat themselves,(must check Kiko's phone logs) they had help for that (probably Murat's contacts initially) I said that the body was moved from storage,( which may well have been in Sagres or nearby) by a third party who used their Renault. If you think about it, they wouldn't in their worst nightmares have expected the police to check a car they rented long after the abduction. They didn't expect to be checked again at all at the villa, all their energies had gone into cleaning 5a.
Anyone doing this service for them either wouldn't have a car of their own to use or didn't want to do so. It was a risk, but not a great one imo. High holiday time, trips to Spain easy, no border posts, no problem really.

I think the family gathering at Sagres was to ease the combined consciences of the family and friends.

I also think the elusive mention of the fridge by Gerry at one stage may have been the message that Maddie had been buried. In the topic on where to hide a body Nina worked out that a handful of consecrated earth will consecrate a grave just anywhere. So that may have been part of the Huelva trip.

by Upsy Daisy 23.10.11 10:50

No, I don't think they even moved the body from the flat
themselves,(must check Kiko's phone logs) they had help for that
(probably Murat's contacts initially) I said that the body was moved
from storage, which may well have been in Sagres or nearby by a third
party who used their Renault. If you think about it, they wouldn't in
their worst nightmares have expected the police to check a car they
rented long after the abduction. They didn't expect to be checked again
at all at the villa, all their energies had gone into cleaning 5a.
Anyone
doing this service for them either wouldn't have a car of their own to
use or didn't want to do so. It was a risk, but not a great one imo.
High holiday time, trips to Spain easy, no border posts, no problem
really.

No, I think the family gathering at Sagres was to ease the combined consciences of the family and friends.

I get you...so this is where Murat's involvement becomes important. Local knowlege and there was a question over him renting a car with different booking details when he already had a car, which I recall briefly seeing but can't remember the dates in question. Then there were the pings on G and RM's phones at the exact same time. I am sure I also read somewhere that G and RM were texting at exactly the same time at one point as well. Again I don't have this detail to hand. I suppose you are right, they would have thought 5a was the end of the investigation in terms of where Madeleine was 'last seen'. The fact that RM suddenly came back to PdL on 1st as well, may have meaning as this could have been the day it happened, G needed his help at that point, fast. Then later on they must have thought no-one would come knocking at that villa at that point, judging by the fact that on display were police manuals, K's famous chapter of the Bible marked and G's book The Interpretation of Murder all waiting to be discovered by the cops. I also read that someone said new plants had been perhaps been planted at that villa. Wonder if she was in a shallow grave there? Perhaps then transported by the famous Scenic and then the smell left to evaporate thereafter. I especially think they must have been horrified to hear that the 'dogs would be left to roam around that villa'. Their worst nightmare indeed. However I wonder did they signal anything in the garden there? Do you think it possible then that they arranged to meet RM or his cronies in Huelva to handover the body for disposal but there was a last minute hiccup and date had to be changed/invented illness or was this purposely done as they realised it didn't fit with the 40 days and had to change the date for this reason. Does anyone know if RM's phone records were investigated for this time period?

by Upsy Daisy 23.10.11 11:27

In G's blog entry for 27th May there is no mention of him hiring the Scenic, which I believe was rented from this date. He goes on about other activities for the day with the family, after planning a 'family day' the day before (the twins had a haircut this day). He mentioned himself getting stuck into emails etc. The day after on 28th, still no mention of hiring the car but making mention of the two guys Chris and Les arriving with the inflatable billboard. Mmmm....is there any signficance here??

by Upsy Daisy 23.10.11 11:54

I noticed from G's blog that the family day, which included a visit to a local beach on Sat 2 June, was the day before Chris and Les left with the inflatable banner ............


Day 30 - 02/06/2007 - Saturday
Relatively quiet day. Did manage to repsond to some e-mails regarding campaign issues with some excellent ideas coming through. We did visit a local beach with Sean, Amelie and the rest of the family who are here and managed to get a bite to eat. Having a huge number of media reuests in but want these to be very focussed in areas that will have clear benefits in the search for Madeleine. We did do a German TV and newspaper interview which wiil be released tomorrow to incraese awareness ahead of our planned visit to Berlin later this week. Most of the Sunday newspapers will carry some of the interview as a British reporter sat in and asked a few more quetions related to the campaign strategy.

Day 31 - 03/06/2007 -

Sunday

Was encouraged to learn of the large volume of information which has
come through the Leicester incident room following the appeal. Hopefully
the Portuguese police will have had a good reponse also and we hope to
meet with them in the next couple of days for an update. Chris and Les,
who travelled over with the huge inflatable banner which has been
positioned near the Spanish border, are heading home today. They were
very happy that the director of the Algarve tourist board allowed them
to put it up in private property owned by them, with thousands of cars
passing every hour and seeing Madeleine’s image and details of her
disappearance and reward. Sunday papers have reported our interviews
virtually verbatim but vey disappointed that the blog was lifted almost
in entirety by one newspaper yesterday after expressly forbidding such
an approach! The blog is to keep people visiting the website up to date

with our progress in the campaign to find Madeleine.

Mmmm......... with regard to the possible theory of her being transported back to UK....AFTER the family have a get together to say goodbye??? Plausible?? The vehicle being positioned at the border SP/PT is interesting.

by Upsy Daisy 23.10.11 12:14

Sorry, just following on from the previous post...didn't K say that it was the 3rd that was more special to her and not M's birthday on 12th. As in, the last day she 'saw her'....perhaps on 3 June this was the last day she saw her, as perhaps her body was then taken elsewhere and perhaps as a handover to the guys with the inflatable, on her way back to UK ??? Or somewhere else??? Perhaps the family visits/beach visits are a safe place where they can all chat amongst themselves without fear of being overheard, etc. A sort of catch up meeting place. Just another theory.

by **tigger** 23.10.11 12:45

From Panalam, Gerry's blogs:

Day 37 - 09/06/2007 - Saturday
DATE GERRY USED
Day 37 - 11/06/2007
Kate and I had a slightly busier day on the media front than expected. We did a short press interview for the Irish Sunday papers, mainly to thank the Irish for their fantastic level of support. We followed that with one for the British Sundays which is likely to be the last one we do for a while. We talked about our pain of not having having Madeleine for such a long time and for our need to grieve, which occurs mainly in private. We also talked about how after Morocco we will have to spend some time reflecting both emotionally, and also how best the campaign can be taken forward. What we want to ensure is that the campaign has a psoitive effect on finding Madeleine.

After this we headed down to Sagres which is the very most southwestern tip of Portugal. There is a very nice beach and we had lunch with the family.

Day 37 is from the 3rd of May, obviously from the 1st of May it will be exactly 40 days.

So from the 1st of May, required observance of the faith:
3rd day, prayers 3/4th May, Church PdL
9th day prayers-? 9th/10th ???
40 days, memorial service- Sagres family and friends, dressed in black. (we need to find photographs of that day)
3 months, visit the grave to say farewells. Huelva trip (1 day late but was planned for the 1st of August?)

by Guest 23.10.11 12:53

Upsy Daisy wrote:In G's blog entry for 27th May there is no mention of him hiring the Scenic, which I believe was rented from this date. He goes on about other activities for the day with the family, after planning a 'family day' the day before (the twins had a haircut this day). He mentioned himself getting stuck into emails etc. The day after on 28th, still no mention of hiring the car but making mention of the two guys Chris and Les arriving with the inflatable billboard. Mmmm....is there any signficance here??

“We used a standard transit van with lots of spare equipment in case of any difficulties in a foreign country, the set up & inflation for the Megasite is just over 1 hour.

http://madeleinemccann.org/2008/1730/the-inflatable-billboard-the-true-story/

An interesting thought, Upsy Daisy, I wonder what spare equipment they sent with the banner..

by **tigger** 23.10.11 12:54

Molly wrote:
Upsy Daisy wrote:In G's blog entry for 27th May there is no mention of him hiring the Scenic, which I believe was rented from this date. He goes on about other activities for the day with the family, after planning a 'family day' the day before (the twins had a haircut this day). He mentioned himself getting stuck into emails etc. The day after on 28th, still no mention of hiring the car but making mention of the two guys Chris and Les arriving with the inflatable billboard. Mmmm....is there any signficance here??

“We used a standard transit van with lots of spare equipment in case of any difficulties in a foreign country, the set up & inflation for the Megasite is just over 1 hour.

http://madeleinemccann.org/2008/1730/the-inflatable-billboard-the-true-story/

An interesting thought, Upsy Daisy, I wonder what spare equipment they sent with the banner..

by Buildersbum 23.10.11 13:09

Upsy Daisy wrote:In G's blog entry for 27th May there is no mention of him hiring the Scenic, which I believe was rented from this date. He goes on about other activities for the day with the family, after planning a 'family day' the day before (the twins had a haircut this day). He mentioned himself getting stuck into emails etc. The day after on 28th, still no mention of hiring the car but making mention of the two guys Chris and Les arriving with the inflatable billboard. Mmmm....is there any signficance here??

There is something that really niggles me, and I mean really niggles me about Chris and Les and the Transport of this billboard, what went back to the UK in that Transit Van??

When our children were small we did loads of French Camping Holidays,with our Caravan over a 20 year period, I can honestly say that we were only ever stopped a couple of times, we've had the drug scanner run under the vehicles a few times, but never had the vehicle searched completely..............This is what niggles me about that Transit Van, imo anything could have been in it, safely transported back to the UK.

by HotlipsHealy 23.10.11 13:10

tigger wrote:Day 37 is from the 3rd of May, obviously from the 1st of May it will be exactly 40 days.

So from the 1st of May, required observance of the faith:
3rd day, prayers 3/4th May, Church PdL
9th day prayers-? 9th/10th ???
40 days, memorial service- Sagres family and friends, dressed in black. (we need to find photographs of that day)
3 months, visit the grave to say farewells. Huelva trip (1 day late but was planned for the 1st of August?)

Very interesting stuff tigger, so maybe K & G really were devout catholics and her mum said they weren't so as to try to deflect attention away from that for the reason you have highlighted above.

There definitely were photo's of all the family dressed in black - Sue and Brian Healy too - which must mean they knew Madeleine was dead if they were attending some kind of service. They are all complicit in this scam, including Kate's own parents who, after all, did nothing to keep the investigation from being shelved as was their right. No, they went along with the shelving of it to protect K & G reputation which did nothing to find the truth about what happened to Maddy.

Stevo/Steve Marsden has these photos because he made a post about it on the 3As. He even pinpointed that the Huelva trip was significant. Can anyone contact him to ask for the photos? Maybe he's even written about this in his book Faked Abduction?

by Upsy Daisy 23.10.11 13:14

I do recall there being some question marks over this whole inflatable thing, set up, timings. Also would they have had equipment on board that would have easily stored a body and would that vehicle have been properly searched on the way back to UK , given its importance in the media, would anyone have dared give it a proper inspection. It just seems too coincidental when I think about it. Tigger, you are right with those numbers as well though, Huelva being a possibility of the 40 day mark. With regard to the 9th/10th if either day was a Friday they held the usual Friday mass did they not? Any family members in PdL would have attended a gathering. So we are looking at two possible leads for body disposal then...either conveniently shipped back to UK undiscovered, by the Inflatable crew or a diversionary trip to Huelva, possibly being met by RM and Co in a rented car to hand over a body for disposal. Do we know if G made a trip back to UK near this time? I know they went to Amsterdam on 5th, wonder which route the inflatable took??? Perhaps a drop off ? They mentioned Amsterdam being particularly special since they spent a year there with Madeleine and had many friends there. Was this not the place where K decided on another round of IVF for the twins? Maybe significant, maybe not. Perhaps she is nearer home as some have theorised....maybe in Amsterdam but perhaps made it all the way back in the inflatable van.

by **tigger** 23.10.11 13:28

I'm just not fond of a scheme of smuggling the body back into the UK. Now that is seriously risky apart from the logistical problems. It also doesn't explain the cadaver odour in the Renault.
I think the topic on the inflatable is fairly clear on the fact that it wasn't a charitable effort at all, an attempt to get more people to give all they got once the publicity said these chaps had done it for nothing. The spirit of the Blitz so to speak. I hate the way the goodness of so many people was manipulated.

by Upsy Daisy 23.10.11 13:30

It just so happens that the 'hoax' letter pertaining to where Madeleine's body was buried, came from someone in Holland, only one week after G was there. Mmmm.....did someone overhear a conversation there? They visited many friends whilst there the previous week. G rubbished this of course (how could he know it was a 'claim;' unless he knew where she was!!??). Was its delivery genuine and totally outwith his control as it went directly to the media and wasn't looked into by the police first hand OR was this one of their famous planted sightings/diversions?? Do we know how they came about knowing that was a definite hoax?? How would they have arrived at this conclusion?

by **tigger** 23.10.11 13:42

Upsy Daisy wrote:It just so happens that the 'hoax' letter pertaining to where Madeleine's body was buried, came from someone in Holland, only one week after G was there. Mmmm.....did someone overhear a conversation there? They visited many friends whilst there the previous week. G rubbished this of course (how could he know it was a 'claim;' unless he knew where she was!!??). Was its delivery genuine and totally outwith his control as it went directly to the media and wasn't looked into by the police first hand OR was this one of their famous planted sightings/diversions?? Do we know how they came about knowing that was a definite hoax?? How would they have arrived at this conclusion?

There must have been thousands of that kind of letter/email. For some reason the press picked this one.

All sorts of loonies come crawling out of the woodwork once a juicy item like this hits the news. According to Clarrie there were still 500 or so psychic sightings to be checked. I remember a film on youtube with this ghastly woman wandering around PdL, saying that here, this very spot, stood a man looking at Maddie on the beach. Here she saw a man following the family etc. etc. All publicity for herself and her fake sightings.
Same with sending letters to the papers, I'd bet my life savings on it that the Telegraaf (which is an out and out tabloid!!!) letter was a hoax. More to the point, a recent case of child abuse in Amsterdam by a male creche assistant, who raped two year olds has received very little publicity. Quite a lot of children of middle class families are linked to this outrage. Now that is 100% true and doesn't get a lot of publicity. Neither does the statement from an official source which said that child abuse affects far more children under the age of four now, because they are unable to express themselves clearly.
Sorry, just thinking about this makes me mad.

by Upsy Daisy 23.10.11 13:43

'm just not fond of a scheme of
smuggling the body back into the UK. Now that is seriously risky apart
from the logistical problems. It also doesn't explain the cadaver odour
in the Renault.
I think the topic on the inflatable is fairly clear
on the fact that it wasn't a charitable effort at all, an attempt to get
more people to give all they got once the publicity said these chaps
had done it for nothing. The spirit of the Blitz so to speak. I hate the
way the goodness of so many people was manipulated.

I agree, it's a very risky attempt to get back to UK. I did also enteretain the fact that G's rich friends who lent them the private aeroplane to see the Pope, may have also provided a vehicle for transporting her. The question of cadaverine in the Renault - the car was rented from 27th May and the inflatable is down in the blog as arriving on 28th! He specifically makes no mention of getting the car on 27th. So either on purpose to not alert to the fact and if the body was being stored either near villa or elsewhere he would have had 24hrs to drive it somewhere, perhaps. They left for Rome the following afternoon (29th). Either the inflatable took the body to a resting place, where they met up again before they departed back to UK. They had trips to Italy then to Madrid and back for the family outing to the beach on 2nd June and Chris and Les and the inflatable van headed back to UK on 3rd June, the route they took I am unsure of. Not sure if this is too far fetched of a plan, but if there was little interference from the authorities the van could have travelled without much of a hiccup.