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Leave No Stone Unturned - Page 16 Mm11

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Leave No Stone Unturned

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Post by Verdi on 01.12.20 20:57

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:Thanks Verdi, the Chart by Jd’Arc is not in question, as I used the same points to fill in the gaps by calculating backwards.

The only time that the Kilometres were recorded properly between the initial hire and return was at the PJ and Martin Grimes inspection on 6/7.08.07. at 9329 Kms.

Only time recorded properly?

I've provided what I believe to be an adequate explanation, I wasn't using the chart as a base document or questioning the content, it's just easier to work with than the poor quality car rental documents copied on the PJ files.

Apart from that, I haven't the vaguest idea what you're talking about - nothing new there!.  Why complicate an otherwise simple explanation to account for the number of kilometres clocked-up?

Look at it another way.  Between the initial hire date of 27th May through to the final return date of 23rd September approximately 11,319 kilometres were registered.  Divide the kilometres by the number of days rented, it's approximately 96 kilometres per day - still not excessive, back and forth to the airport twice in one day would account for the kilometres registered.

That estimation of course doesn't account for specific days, like one when the vehicle was used more than another.  Plus there were two other named drivers and as I've already said, the period between the McCanns departure and the return of the vehicle to base, about two weeks later.  The custodian could have traveled across Europe in that relatively short period.

I don't think it matters one iota.

The only important factor is the alerts by the specialist trained dogs, Eddie and Keela, seconded to Portugal with their handler Martin Grime.

Keep your eyes  on the ball !

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Post by Silentscope on 02.12.20 10:43

⚽ 11329
              9329
                      5866
                              3864
                                     3114 ⚽ 

The Ball rolls nicely down the slope that Someone made...
The questions remain:

Was this method from Budget itself or someone else’s idea?
Why would Logos and Names be missing on the Paerwork or in the wrong format?
Are these records false?

Because the Kilometres driven for real between dates obviously are.
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Post by Silentscope on 03.12.20 19:14

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03.06.07 3864 Kms
03.07.07 5864 Kms
               7864 Kms shortly before the Dogs inspection 06/07.08.07
03.08.07 9864 Kms would have been the next Logical step.
06.08.07 9329 Kms recorded in the Dogs search in PORTIMAO.

Three days later than expected by Budget and 535 Kms short of the usual 2000 Kms a Month.

So how did someone KNOW that they should add 2,000 Kms to 9,329 to make 11,329?

And not 9,864 + 2,000 = 11,864 Kms total?

Who can drive EXACTLY 2,000 Kms in three weeks?

Or was it just a great guess? 11,864 - 9,329 = 2,535 Kms difference.

Another NOK, and not really believable.

The average Kms per day BEFORE the Dogs inspection was (6215 : 72) = 86.31
The average Kms per day AFTER the Dogs inspection was (2000 : 51) 
= 39.21
Total average over the entire Hire period was (11,329 : 123) 
= 92.10 Kms per day.

Explanations will be welcomed.
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Post by ROSA on 03.12.20 21:43

How long was the car hired for ?

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Post by Verdi on 04.12.20 0:04

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:Explanations will be welcomed.

Well, you might start by explaining where the numbers you keep quoting come from - it certainly ain't from the PJ investigation documentation.

I seriously think you should reconsider your information source because, whoever it is guiding you, appears to be playing you and playing the forum into the bargain, which is not recommended.

At your leisure.

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Post by Silentscope on 04.12.20 10:49

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:Explanations will be welcomed.

Well, you might start by explaining where the numbers you keep quoting come from - it certainly ain't from the PJ investigation documentation.

I seriously think you should reconsider your information source because, whoever it is guiding you, appears to be playing you and playing the forum into the bargain, which is not recommended.

At your leisure.

The numbers in Boxes on the Graph are those taken from the PJ Files and the Paperwork. 
The numbers on the bottom line are back calculations using the reverse of the true Kilometres minus 14443.
14443 - 11329 = 3114 or zero Kms driven. 5864 - 3864 = 2000 Kms driven that Month.

This gives underneath the Kilometres on the paperwork, the total accumulated Kilometres driven between those points.

Previously the expected Averaged line was expected to be completely straight between 3114 and 14443 total.

The “real” 9,329 Kms recorded by the PJ should not be anywhere on this line. It should be below it.

It appears that Budget had used a Contract with the McCanns which probably involves giving them up to 2,000 Kms free per Month of hire. Whether a “Month” is classed as 28, 30 or 31 days needs to be confirmed still.

Fact remains Budget should have carried on from their own figures, and not been able to know the Kilometres at the Dogs inspection. Judicial secrecy and the PJ Files were not yet public knowledge.

If the real Kilometres showing on the instrument panel were 11, 329 when the vehicle was picked up.

How did someone drive EXACTLY 2,000 Kilometres in the last weeks of the hire?

Nobody is playing me. I am not playing the Forum either. I am saying the numbers do not “add up” right now.

I cannot make these figures up. If they are wrong, show me where, and I will alter them.

There must be a good explanation for these apparent differences. 

3114, 3864, 5864, 7864, 9864 (9329) 11329,11864 obviously NOT actually physically driven (apart from 9329.)
0.      750.   2000. 2000. 2000                       2000 expected by Budget by their contract.

They obviously were driving physically less Kilometres per period of Rental than were foreseen by contract.
It seems likely that after the first week of Hire they were put on a different contract maybe?
This means of course no one would be able to check the real Kilometres driven Monthly.

Members are invited to check for themselves the information above and supply any other explanation.?
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Post by Silentscope on 04.12.20 10:54

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:How long was the car hired for ?
I made it 123 days 
72 days before the Dogs inspection.
51 days afterwards.

Feel free to double check.

I will alter any mistake.
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Post by Verdi on 04.12.20 12:16

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I'm none the wiser, I'm beginning to wonder if even you know what you're talking about.

The figures to be seen on the PJ files are those repeatedly identified and taken from the car rental copies. As far as I can see, any other numbers you quote are pure invention on your part.

A plausible, indeed the most likely, explanation for what some seem to think erroneous has already been provided on this thread.

As I said some while ago, you need to know exactly how the vehicle rental company and associates operate. I think you should know, car rental firms operating in tourist areas tend to be a trifle slapdash and they have serious competition from all sides. They also have vehicles parked idle for weeks on end - even if the vehicle fleet is stationed elsewhere.

Here it's worth taking into consideration the various scams that folk get up to when working in a tourist resort - it's an eye opener! Even the diplomatic corp have been known to swell their monthly income with a little side earner.

Ever seen a desk in hotel reception hiring out cars - I have, it's common place.

Still, far be it for me to get in the way of a well intentioned project, albeit seemingly pointless.

As you were!

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Post by Silentscope on 04.12.20 13:55

@ Verdi

The point is that it has now become clear that;

1. The distances quoted on the Paperwork are NOT those physically driven by the McCanns and others during the periods stated.

2. The first weeks Hire had a MAXIMUM of 750 Kms on the Contract.

3. After that, the Contracts appear to offer 2,000 Kms per Month.

4. At the end of Sept Budget would have allowed for 11, 864 Kms

5. I do not think Budget were informed by the PJ as to the Kms at the Dogs inspection because otherwise they would not have rolled on the obviously false 5866 Kms afterwards. No Odometer runs backwards.
But I could be wrong.

6. So how did EXACTLY the right amount of 2,000 Kilometres end up on the Odometer? The difference between what Budget expected and what actually was recorded is probably 535 Kms by my calculations.

9,864 - 9,329 = 535 Kms

Possibilities seem to be so far;

Either someone drove exactly 2000 Kms in three weeks. (Ja,ja)

Someone who knew the PJ 9,329 Kms added 2000 Kms to them.

Or it has something to do with the difference between the expected Kilometres contracted by Budget and the timing between those Dates and the Dogs inspection? Maybe the Dates are “squeezing” the Data?

I am sure it will work out somehow.
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Post by crusader on 04.12.20 14:53

I wonder if it's got anything to do with, after a certain amount of Kms the car has to go back to the main depot at the end of the lease?

The rental company did offer another  car to the McCann's or they could buy the one they were using before the rental contract  ended, which they declined.

Do the car rental company only want cars with up to a certain mileage on their books.

Why did the car rental agency ask for the car back, then let them keep it until the end of the contract?

They were quite within their rights just to take them a replacement car.
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Post by Silentscope on 04.12.20 17:24

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:I wonder if it's got anything to do with, after a certain amount of Kms the car has to go back to the main depot at the end of the lease?

Unfortunately not relevant for the Calculations. Sorry

The rental company did offer another  car to the McCann's or they could buy the one they were using before the rental contract  ended, which they declined.

True, they were told if they wanted to use it further they had the option to buy it, they declined.

Do the car rental company only want cars with up to a certain mileage on their books.

Possibly, no one would want to rent out a unreliable vehicle.

Why did the car rental agency ask for the car back, then let them keep it until the end of the contract?

It beats me why the PJ just did not impound it as potential Evidence!

They were quite within their rights just to take them a replacement car.

Obviously a decision from Budget, but why not indeed!

Other things need to be taken into account as well. 
What is viewed as a Month as per Budgets contracts? 28 or 30 days?
There was never any “Excess Kilometres” billed so nothing definitive is recorded.

It is only possible by back Calculations to hazard an educated guess as to what would have been the maximum amount they could have driven at several periods of time so far. 

I am still working on “Mission Impossible “....

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Post by Silentscope on 04.12.20 20:09

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] refers:

A mistake has crept in brought on by looking at the wrong column.

Point 6
2000 Kms should read 5114 Kms as per the bottom line.

Updated:

122 days total Hire
 73 days before the Dogs investigation 
 49 days afterwards

Averages:

  6215 kms :  73 days =   85.13 Km/p day
  5114 Kms :  49 days = 104.36
11329 Kms : 122 days =   92.86
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Post by Silentscope on 06.12.20 13:06

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750, 2000 are the number of MAXIMUM KMS on the Contract

Not the Actual Kms physically driven in the Hired Vehicle.

If they had kept the 03.10.07 they would have still only driven probably 11864 Kms and still not gone over the Monthly limit.

The McCanns left Portugal on the 09:30 Flight from Faro on 09.09.07.

The Vehicle was returned to Budget in Lagos on 23.09.07.

All figures are Calculated backwards and therefore ESTIMATES.

No deductions have been made for any known Kilometres driven.
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Post by crusader on 06.12.20 13:54

I can see the Kms have been buggered about with by somebody, the car hire firm?

What I'm struggling with is, what difference does it make to Madeleines demise?
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Post by Verdi on 06.12.20 14:04

I'm presuming the purpose of the exercise to be a way of finding when, why and where Madeleine McCann's remains are located.

That must be on the assumption that the Renault Scenic was used to transport a body after death - tenuous to say the least.

Aside from that, impossible task to determine the Renault Scenic's history during the McCann hire period.

I don't believe there is any evidence to suggest the kilometres clocked-up have been adjusted - by anyone!

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Post by Silentscope on 06.12.20 14:23

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:I can see the Kms have been buggered about with by somebody, the car hire firm?

No, they just Estimated 2000 Kms per Month after seeing what they drove in the first Week.
They did not do us any favours though, by recording the actual Kms driven.

What I'm struggling with is, what difference does it make to Madeleines demise?

It was only a Mathematical excercise to narrow down on average where, if she was transported at all, the maximum distance she could have been taken at a given point in time.

Because Budget billed them Monthly, it would at best be an educated guess in periods of 5-7 days at most.

It is the best I can do on the Data available.

If it was not for Martin Grime and the PJ, the difference in Average Kms before and after the Inspection would not be checkable at all!
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Post by Silentscope on 06.12.20 14:32

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:I'm presuming the purpose of the exercise to be a way of finding when, why and where Madeleine McCann's remains are located.

That must be on the assumption that the Renault Scenic was used to transport a body after death - tenuous to say the least.  

Aside from that, impossible task to determine the Renault Scenic's history during the McCann hire period.

I don't believe there is any evidence to suggest the kilometres clocked-up have been adjusted - by anyone!

There are several ways, Mechanical and Electronical, to alter the Kilometres on the Vehicle.

But because only the Start, Dogs Inspection and End Kilometres were recorded accurately, and Budget just rolled on the paperwork in between, what they actually drove per Month will not be known.

Even taking into account trips to the Airport and Huelva only comes to around 600 Kms difference.

That has no great impact on the Average figures.
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Post by crusader on 06.12.20 14:46

I'm afraid maths is not my best subject, but you are being very thourogh [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I wish you well.
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Post by Silentscope on 06.12.20 15:22

I was hoping to do a comparison on Murats Hire car, which had covered more Kilometres than he remembered driving in it.

But.

Because his Hire company did not bother to record the return Kilometre distance driven, and had no Computer system in the Office, all was done on paper, it will not be possible.

The only way now would be to check with a Mechatronikers computer if any alterations were done in comparison to other systems on the vehicles. 

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Vorsprung durch Technik? Leider Nicht möglich.
Progression through technology is sadly not possible...

Sorry
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Post by Verdi on 07.12.20 0:01

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:I'm presuming the purpose of the exercise to be a way of finding when, why and where Madeleine McCann's remains are located.

That must be on the assumption that the Renault Scenic was used to transport a body after death - tenuous to say the least.  

Aside from that, impossible task to determine the Renault Scenic's history during the McCann hire period.

I don't believe there is any evidence to suggest the kilometres clocked-up have been adjusted - by anyone!

There are several ways, Mechanical and Electronical, to alter the Kilometres on the Vehicle.

But because only the Start, Dogs Inspection and End Kilometres were recorded accurately, and Budget just rolled on the paperwork in between, what they actually drove per Month will not be known.

Even taking into account trips to the Airport and Huelva only comes to around 600 Kms difference.

That has no great impact on the Average figures.

Never have I said nor suggested that it's not possible to 'alter the kilometres on a vehicle'.

What I said and have been saying is I can see no evidence nor reason to suggest the kilometres clocked-up had been altered by anyone for any reason - you even quoted my words!

Now you can only confirm what I've been telling you for a while - your QUEST, whatever the reason may be, is IMPOSSIBLE.

As I've also said previously, the Figures you KEEP quoting are your OWN invention.  They have no relevance WHATSOEVER.

You now say .... 'But because only the Start, Dogs Inspection and End Kilometres were recorded'.  As I've REPEATEDLY told You but YOU chose to Ignore.

Entschuldigung!

Gib mir Kraft, jetzt hast du mit Robert Murat angefangen?

Give me strength - NOW you've started on Robert MURAT?

Remind me - why are you here?

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Post by Silentscope on 07.12.20 9:58

I have at least found out that the Kilometres recorded on the paperwork are those estimated by Budget for the specific Contract at the time.

Not those actually driven by the McCanns, who now obviously drove around 500 Kms under their Monthly limit around the first week of Aug. 

The figures I presented are not “invented” but back calculations from what were known to be based on the paperwork. Budget were not “in on it” as you thought I was thinking. They certainly however did not record the Monthly end figures accurately.

As for “starting on Murat” no. I believe he was probably being set up.
If it had been possible to prove a manipulation on the Scenic’ odometer, and the same addition had been found on his hired Getz, what would that mean?

Still, thanks to incomplete Paperwork it can never be established.

Even as an average.

Was that just incompetence or was it a plan?

Make up your own minds.
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Post by Shellsbells on 17.12.20 10:49

Fantastic thread! I think maybe needs looking more into, I have looked at the photographs from the pj of the  parents room, there is to the side an extremely long charger, is this for the nokia phones they had? Or did they in fact have already a laptop, bear with me here, something is niggling me, if Gerry as we know updated if friends reunited page in the days if not hours later then how did he do that, I doubt via a nokia phone please correct me if I am wrong but we did not have the facilities back then that could easy access FR, also did Kate do the online shop on  said computer, the one she had the forethought and  asked to be cancelled whilst in PDL, 5his could open uo another can of worms or could be a dead end, as Gerry says confusion is good, but I trust nothing of what they tell us, so was this a deliberate attempt to show that they were intending to return from the holiday on time? Thank you for any thoughts on this

_______________________________________________________________________________________

I have moved your post from [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] (a thread exhausted over nine years ago), to a current general debate section.

If the subject matter develops into something revelatory then it's place on the forum can be reviewed.

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