How Maddie's creche attendance was "arranged"

kikoraton wrote:
Did you know that, every time the Naylor child attended, GMcC was in close attendance. (In fact, I believe it was he who signed her in - remember this is all about handwriting?). And of course he also signed in "Madeleine".

When E Naylor didn't attend, "Madeleine" did (of course, she and the twins were forced to attend creche every damn morning and afternoon) but it was KMcC who signed her in. No sign of GMcC. Believe me, this is significant.

By George, kiko, you are absolutely right and I missed that one. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
I have never prayed so much before in my life, but every night now on I will. Someone out there just has to listen to you kiko !!!

kikoraton wrote:Oh, and by the way: if any "strangers'" eyes are reading here where they shouldn't be, another forum member also knows what I think I know.
If you see what I mean.

Stella wrote:

AM	29		30		1		2		3
	in	out	in	out	in	out	in	out	in	out
Berry	9.10	12.00	9.00	12.00	9.00	12.00	9.30	12.30	9.00	12.15
Naylor	9.10	12.30	9.25	12.30	9.10	12.30	9.20	12.30	9.10
Mann	9.15	12.30	9.30	12.30	9.25	12.20	9.45	12.30	9.25	12.30
Totman	9.15	12.30	9.00	12.25	9.20	12.25	9.45	12.20	9.25	12.20
McCann	9.45	12.15	9.30	12.10	9.30	12.20	9.20	12.30	9.10	12.25
O'Brien			9.15	12.35	9.00		9.30	12.30	9.50	12.30
Patel							9.45	12.30
PM	29		30		1		2		3
	in	out	in	out	in	out	in	out	in	out
Berry	2.30	5.20			2.30	5.30	2.30	4.30
Naylor	2.40	5.20			2.30	4.00
Mann	3.00	5.30	4.30	?	2.50	5.30	2.45	5.30	2.30	5.30
Totman			2.15	?	2.40	5.30			3.30	5.15
McCann	2.45	5.30	3.15	3.30	2.30		2.45	5.30	2.50	5.30
O'Brien	2.45	3.30	4.00		2.30	5.30	2.30	5.30	2.30	4.30
Patel			2.30		2.30	5.30
		did not attend that session
		not signed out or writing too feint
		girl
		boy

Can anyone remember the name of the OC worker who made a statement about Neil Berry, claiming that she saw him acting suspiciously in a stairwell somewhere? What day did this happen on? It's funny that his child was missing from creche the exact same two afternoons as Naylor, did they know each other? Berry was also one of a few who extended his holiday AFTER Madeleine went missing. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Also, just look at the afternoon on the 30th. Was there some kind of mass evacuation that day?

Stella wrote:Also, just look at the afternoon on the 30th. Was there some kind of mass evacuation that day?

The only child signed out is Madeleine, 15 minutes after being signed in. When you see it as a picture/chart it really does paint a picture more than words alone do.
And look at O'Brien signed in at 4pm!! Is that an error?

No, I don't think it's an error, olive. I think something "funny" was going on. And I hadn't noticed previously that Alex Mann came in at 4.30!!!!!

Stella wrote:Also, just look at the afternoon on the 30th. Was there some kind of mass evacuation that day?

And Madeleine only signed in for 15 minutes.

This is why I think something happened on the 29th, which is why the circus performance started to play out and badly at that on the 30th !!!

I was looking for something else this morning and remembered I came across this in Matt's statement, talking about the McCann children at creche:


"the kids were always sort of really confident and they were the least misbehaved, well not misbehaved, they were the least upset when they dropped them off at Nursery, at crèche, it was all really good and it was all sort of, they were sort of very good at, if they did something wrong, they said no and sort of explaining it properly and why it was naughty to do that sort of thing, it was all sort of very appropriate and almost by the book, and it seemed a bit sort of casual to sort of like leave the door open, but then they had sort of an older daughter, so and older children might get nightmares, so it seemed as though there might be a reasonable explanation, but although I thought it was odd at the time, I didn’t say, do you normally leave your door or anything like that”.

Yes, arrived 1515, left at 1530. But which Madeleine was it? And why would KM drop her off there for just 15 minutes? Why would O'B show up with his daughter at 1600, followed by the Manns with their child at 1630? And why were not one of the other children, apart from "Madeleine", signed out? And wasn't that the afternoon when we thought that KM's signature, in signing out the twins, didn't look right?
Does anyone remember what activity was planned for that Monday afternoon, for the Lobsters?

Well spotted, Stella. What a mess Oldfield gets himself in, while trying to explain the inexplicable!! I think by saying "the least upset", he had in mind the twins rather than the "sort of older daughter". But that's just my take on it.

This is where HiDeHo's analysis of the creche activities is vital, will see if I can locate it.

It was Garden Club followed by mini-dance.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]


I don't think I have ever heard of anyone talking about a Garden Club before. Did they plant flowers ?? [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

This is another interesting one. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

If we look at who charged what to their rooms, we can see some very interesting movements.

	the day the money was spent
	30th	1st	2nd	3rd	4th
McCann	242.00	242.00	missing	242.00	242.00
O'Brien	105.00	105.00	missing	105.00	105.00
Oldfield	21.00	26.00	missing	31.00	31.00
Payne	117.50	162.00	missing	162.00	177.00
O'Donnell	32.25	42.25	missing	143.50	143.50
Naylor BP01	99.00	110.40	missing	110.40	0.00
Berry	116.50	177.00	missing	215.50	0.00
Balu	12.00	12.00	missing	12.00	12.00

What we can see in this schedule is that Berry changed rooms on the 4th/5th and cleared his tab before moving to DP01. What is also very interesting is that up until the 7th May, which is the last list that we have, his balance remains at zero !! So not only does he get a nice room upgrade, it looks like everything else is on the house.

Then we have the Naylor's in BP01. They were not due to leave until the 5th, but they cleared their tab on the 4th, which probably means they moved rooms also or left early !!!

Why did O'Donnell's expenditure go through the roof on the 2nd ??

The McCann's and O'Brien's costs never change ??

Is any of these fees for entry to creche I wonder? or for additonal travel cots delivered to a room?

Stella wrote:This is why I think something happened on the 29th, which is why the circus performance started to play out and badly at that on the 30th !!!

I was looking for something else this morning and remembered I came across this in Matt's statement, talking about the McCann children at creche:


"the kids were always sort of really confident and they were the least misbehaved, well not misbehaved, they were the least upset when they dropped them off at Nursery, at crèche, it was all really good and it was all sort of, they were sort of very good at, if they did something wrong, they said no and sort of explaining it properly and why it was naughty to do that sort of thing, it was all sort of very appropriate and almost by the book, and it seemed a bit sort of casual to sort of like leave the door open, but then they had sort of an older daughter, so and older children might get nightmares, so it seemed as though there might be a reasonable explanation, but although I thought it was odd at the time, I didn’t say, do you normally leave your door or anything like that”.

I am having a doh moment here. When he speaks about an open door does he mean at 5A or the creche?

Am I right in thinking that "cleared the tab on 4 May" in fact means "had cleared the tab by 4 May", since AFAIR the lists are dated very early (around 0100) on each day? That might indicate that the Naylors had left by evening 3 May.

I had a visitation with an hours notice yesterday by the grandchildren and had to drop everything. I am about to create another schedule now, to include report run dates, times and movements and will post it up here shortly after I have caught up.

Report	Time
run on	printed	Naylor BP01	Berry G606
1st May	3.45 am	99.00	116.50
2nd May	missing
3rd May	1.16 am	110.40	177.00
4th May	1.48 am	110.40	215.50
5th May	2.37 am	zero	zero

Sometime after 1.48 am on the 4th May and before 2.37 am on the 5th May, both of these individuals checked out of their rooms.

Their official leaving date was on the 5th.

The night of the 4th to breakfast on the 5th, was supposed to be their 7th night.

Which means they must have checked out sometime during the day on the 4th, staying only 6 nights.

Report	Time
run on	printed	Mann 0008	Hynd 0011
1st May	3.45 am	3.00	56.20
2nd May	missing
3rd May	1.16 am	3.00	98.20
4th May	1.48 am	3.00	103.95
5th May	2.37 am	3.00	103.95
6th May	7.05 am	zero	103.95
7th May	7.16 am	zero	143.45

Mann - this is how checkout should have looked, leaving on the original due date of the 5th.

Hynd - sometime on their departure date of the 5th they booked an extra week, minus his Mother, staying in their original room.

Stella - playing devil`s advocate.....do you think that the Naylors may have just settled their bill on the 4th rather than vacating their room. It could be that if they had an early start on the 5th, they would do this the day before. Do you know how the system works? I think we know that Berry was probably asked to stay on, as was Balu, to give statements. A

Hi Alison

I have been thinking about this one and having never worked within the hotel industry before, I'm not entirely sure how things would usually work. But if you as a person know that you are not going to charge anything more to your room, would you be tempted to settle your bill one day early?, it's possible I guess. But from a hotel point of view, would you want your guest to settle the day before they are due to leave, just in case there are additional items added to the bill over night? It's something the police should investigate.

alison wrote: I think we know that Berry was probably asked to stay on, as was Balu, to give statements. A

Quite ! but I wonder why Berry had to move to another room to do so and a much better one at that?

As you say, Balu who was originally booked in under his partners name Cox, also stayed on to give his statement, but which room did he stay in?, as there are no bookings for Balu or Cox after that date. Did he stay in someone elses room as a guest? or in privately owned accommodation perhaps?

Could the other guests like Hynd who also decided to stay on at the very last minute, have been asked to do so by the PJ? If so, he must have had to give a statement, so where is it?

Do we know whether the Lobsters/Sharks were open on the 4th May, Stella? I`ve looked at the Patel entry for 5th May and it looks like the Naylor entry i.e no charges after the 4th. I wonder whether there were no charges because the Lobsters/Sharks were closed. The Patel child had been in the Lobsters with Madeleine.

Having said all that, I agree with you that normally hotels would expect you to settle your bill just before you depart unless you were leaving in the middle of the night/very early morning.

Looking at the Naylor entries on the MW reservation sheets, it says no flights or transfers required. Which to me means they could possibly have been picked up by friends or relatives and may even have been intending to drive to another location when they were finished there??

On someone elses booking there is a comment about the customer is aware of having to leave early on the 5th, but their flight details are missing, it's completely blank !! Perhaps they had a private jet? [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Personally, I'm always tempted to settle my bill early, in the knowledge that there may be a long queue (especially on a Saturday) which may delay my departure. On Tuesday, I settled my bill one hour early, and the receptionist said "this is your provisional account, Mr Raton". In other words, if I had nipped back to the mini-bar and drunk the lot, or made a long telephone call from our room, they would have caught up with me before I had left.
I imagine that certain folk at the Ocean Club settled their account on the Friday, and since they didn't need transfers or flights, nobody will know whether they actually left on the Friday, or on the Saturday. Not necessarily anything suspicious about that.
I'd love to know when the surrogate Naylors in G4N quit the premises. Since they were not part of a Mark Warner package, I don't believe we have any "tabs" or other records for them.
Excellent work, Stella, but in my view we have gone as far as we can with that particular line of enquiry. Only my opinion.

Stella wrote:This is where HiDeHo's analysis of the creche activities is vital, will see if I can locate it.

There are so many oddities about the creche activities, I don't think I have one thread dedicated to all the issues.

I will add 'issues' from memory and expand on them if required.

The activity sheet does not 'match' with statements.

eg.
1) Monday shows as mini tennis but Georgina claims Madeleine's group played on Tuesday morning (she was non specific about remembering Madeleine being there and may have just been referring to the schedule).

Tennis records show it was Tuesday. The other group played Thursday morning. (BOD's group)

2) Mini dance every day between 4.30pm and 5 is not mentioned (except by BOD) as this was the time used to walk to the tapas for high tea

3) (this one is, maybe, a little confusing)
The diagram of events for the creche (basically a timeline graph) have blue and beige coloured blocks which I have always thought represented the beach times and the change of mini sail because of the rain on Wednesday.

What I now believe is that these blocks were changed by...or because of Catrinona's statement leaving them questionable.

She claims to have taken the children to the beach for an hour on Tuesday afternoon and Wednesday afternoon (3.30pm-4.30pm) and changed the Wednesday morning mini sail to Thursday (which is when she claims she took them.)

Firstly, the diagram of Events is missing for Thursday morning (when they were supposedly taken for mini sail) and her statement on May 10th about the three beach visits only shows she said the Tuesday and Wednesday visit on both the Tuesday and Wednesday D of E and no reference to Thursdays visit (which is in her statement)

4) This led me to believe the possibility that there was NO mini sail which seemed even more apparent when I discovered there was only an informal statement by Alice Stanley and Chris Unsworth and, considering as they were intructors, they were among the last people to see Madeleine that day and should have been asked (officially) whether there was anyone suspicious. I wonder whether the reason they were not officially interviewed is because there WAS NO mini sail with Madeleine that morning (Thursday) and therefore their statement would not be worthy of recording officially.

5) Tuesday 2.30pm -3030pm claims 'Ice cream trip'. After reading travel reports this trip was apparently a favourite with guests (they probably had to pay extra) and I have always imagined it was down at the beach if the beach trip 3.0-4.30pm followed.

Catriona only claims the beach trip was for 1 hour.

The ice cream trip seems odd to me as this is when (Tuesday) the McCanns claim to have visited the beach and had 5 ice creams returning at 2.30pm to the creche in time for Madeleine to return for an ice cream. (same drop off time as ROB)

I was always under the illusion (but I cannot place from where) that there were 3 trips to the beach.

If you look at the activity sheet it shows Wednesday (when Catriona claims a beach trip for an hour) to be Olympics grass time and the third beach trip was scheduled for Friday (after Madeleine had disappeared).

The above is from memory (and/or my opinion added) so please advise of any mistakes.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]


More issues that I am not sure whether addressed on this thread is that although different nannies were allocated to specific children, the room was used for other groups and could therefore have been intermingled with the Lobsters/Sharks and an older group all in the same room, as well as, possibly, the babies.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Another creche 'issue' that I have not yet scrutinised is that, the nappy bag they used, when seen sideways, was quite large. There are pictures of both Gerry and Kate taking the twins to the creche and returning without the bag,

If only one of them picked up the twins it would be difficult to manage them both with the bag. If only one of them picked up Madeleine AND the twins it would be extremely difficult.