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How Maddie's creche attendance was "arranged" - Page 33 Mm11

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The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™
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How Maddie's creche attendance was "arranged" - Page 33 Mm11

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How Maddie's creche attendance was "arranged"

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Post by kikoraton 24.02.11 18:27

Brilliant stuff, HdH!!!!! Would you say that, as testimony to the truth, the creche staff statements are worthless?
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Post by theolivebranch 24.02.11 18:55

Just a point about the settling of bills. In an hotel with mini bar and the like then yes as Kiko says you can settle the night before maybe but they would grab you for anything taken/used in the intervening period. But they were not in an hotel were they so the apartments would have already been settled what may not have been paid for is drinks or meals at the tapas or Millenium or even creche fees or sports fees.
Now I am sure the creche, or at least the one the twins went to was open on the 4th because the twins were taken there, obviously no fear of the pervy child snatcher infiltrating that. Perfectly safe to off load them, and after all they loved it, yeh I bet they did.
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Post by HiDeHo 24.02.11 19:32

kikoraton wrote:Brilliant stuff, HdH!!!!! Would you say that, as testimony to the truth, the creche staff statements are worthless?

I have studied and scrutinised the statements of all witnesses that 'saw' Madeleine during the week in particular the nannies.

Once again, if I may post the details from memory and expand and link details if required.

I am of the belief that something happened to Madeleine earlier in the week and I came to that conclusion after studying the discrepancies and 'oddities' which started prior to Tuesday.

Two major issues had to be overcome for this to have been possible....

1) the 'sightings' of Madeleine by many witnesses
2) The creche records

I scrutinised all the witness statements and did not find ONE (after Sunday lunchtime when the cleaners daughter saw them all outside the apartment on their way up to the Paynes) that proved to be a reliable sighting.

Some witnesses were mistaken. One in particular (cook) recalled seeing Madeleine every day as she was in the creche next to the tapas (Madeleines creche was 5 minutes away at the reception). Some witnesses were non specific or remembered 'Madeleine' as shy and quiet. (Jane Tanner's daughter was known to be of that personality and could have been mistaken for Madeleine.)

Miguel Mattias from the Paraiso remembers seeing Madeleine dancing with her daddy on Thursday afternoon. We know Madeleine was not at the Paraiso with the other Tapas group, which means he saw ANOTHER tapas child that looked like Madeleine.

Many other examples from all the witnesses.

Catriona was, initially, non specific about details of Madeleine in her early statement (possibly using creche register times) and used more detail in her rogatory statement whhich was made a few months after her 'invitation' visit to Rothley in November, giving, in many people's opinion, questioned credibility to her statements.

Thursday at High Tea both Kate and Gerry claim they were there picking up Madeleine. Gerry was with them until Kate arrived after her 'jog' at the beach.

Catriona 'remembers' Kate in sporting clothes but claims Gerry wasn't there and she thought he was playing tennis. One wonders how she would 'know' he was playing tennis or why she didn't see him.

Once I had established that there are no totally credible sightings of Madeleine during the week I looked at the creche records to see whether it was possible to 'fake' the register.

Others consider a 'replacement' Madeleine. Personally, I consider it a possibility that Madeleine's name was added.

I don't know where the placement of the register. Was it inside the room where the creche worker would leave the other children and welcome the child or was it at the doorway unmonitored?

If unmonitored it would be easy (imo) to mark Madeleine into the creche whether with another person's child present or not.

The creche room was used by all the children from the other groups, (from what I understand) and without the regularity of marking each child 'present' as in a school atmosphere and with children arriving and leaving sporadically sometimes during outside activities, the register was possibly only used as a record of where to contact the parents if needed, and may not have been scrutinsed by the nanny.

Keeping in mind , two weeks prior, there was a BBC Whiistleblower investigator in Mark Warners creche in Greece and any changes or additions to the creche records, by Catriona, may have had more to do with the scrutiny the records would receive after the disappearance.

There was nothing at the time to indcate that the records would be involved in the 'abduction' and therefore Catriona may only have signed in and out for some parents to cover her job.

When hearing Kate and Gerry claim that Madeleine was in the creche that (and other days) she would have been too intimidated to question if she couldn't recall as her job was being scrutinised because of the Whistleblower program.

John Hill's wife was in charge of the creche and would (possibly) have immediately made Catriona aware of future scrutiny regarding the Whistleblower program. She would not have known (before they were retrieved by the police on May 4th) that the creche records would become involved in the investigation.

The nannies statements do not, conclusively, refer to Madeleine.

My opinion.
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Post by Guest 25.02.11 9:13

HiDeHO, On the Monday afternoon, which was marked down as Garden something?? no one seems to mention this, is that right? Or did that get swapped for something else? I'm confused now.
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Post by HiDeHo 25.02.11 12:09

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Monday afternoon between 3.30 and 4.30pm it is marked as 'Garden Adventure' but I have not seen any reference to this activity.

After reading many of the travel blogs and comments about the Ocean club there seems to be, mostly, very positive feedback about the creche and that they try to take the children on outside actvites as much as possible every day.

As far as the activity sheet goes....its reliability for activities that the children of Lobster group participated in, is questionable.

Did they play tennis on Monday morning (as per the sheet) or Tuesday (as per Georgina the coach and the tennis records)?

Did they go to the beach on Wednesday afternoon 3.30-4.30pm as per Catriona or did they have 'grass time' as per the activity sheet?


Processos, volume IV TOC, pgs. Pgs. 870 to 883

We were told by Catriona, that in the last days they went to the beach on Tuesday afternoon (01 of May 2007), between 15H30 and 16h30, on Wednesday (the next day) at the same time and on Thursday between 10 and 11h00

Emma Wilding
on Wednesday May 2, her group and Madeleine’s group went to the beach, but she is not sure if Madeleine was in the group or not,



Did they go on an ice cream trip, followed by a beach trip on Tuesday (as per the sheet) or did they only go for an hour to the beach as per Catriona?

Did they have mini dance every day?

Did they go to the beach three times during the week with Madeleine or only twice with the 'third' time being Friday morning as per the activity sheet?
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Post by Guest 25.02.11 13:49

Thanks HiDeHo, so basically the creche details are all pants !!
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Post by theolivebranch 25.02.11 15:33

Stella wrote:Thanks HiDeHo, so basically the creche details are all pants !!

Well in my opinion they are not an accurate reflection of what happened that week either activity or signing in/out sheet wise.
But eh it was only child security at stake.
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Post by kikoraton 26.02.11 20:42

I think that you loyal followers of this thread deserve a summing-up, seeing as how we have exceeded 80 pages and cannot expect to discover much more from the limited material made available to us by the kindness of the Portuguese authorities. This is how I see it:
• Madeleine McCann died early in the McCann holiday. Several days before 3 May, when K and G would have us believe she was “abducted”.
• the death was covered up and an action plan was formulated.
• the crêche records were falsified.

A lot more detail can be found in these 81 pages, but it might be unwise to tug the donkey's tail too hard by bringing it all together. It's enough to say that it is not just we few here who know the evidence in all its detail. The eagle has flown. It is circling. It can see its prey down there in the Rothley Towers. But they don't know when or from which direction it will strike.
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Post by Estelle 26.02.11 21:05

Good things will come to those of us who wait. Thanks, kikoraton.
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Post by Jill Havern 26.02.11 21:08

kikoraton wrote:The eagle has flown. It is circling. It can see its prey down there in the Rothley Towers. But they don't know when or from which direction it will strike.

thumbsup

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How Maddie's creche attendance was "arranged" - Page 33 Empty Moving away from the 'substitute Madeleine' theory

Post by Tony Bennett 26.02.11 21:46

kikoraton wrote:I think that you loyal followers of this thread deserve a summing-up, seeing as how we have exceeded 80 pages and cannot expect to discover much more from the limited material made available to us by the kindness of the Portuguese authorities. This is how I see it:

• Madeleine McCann died early in the McCann holiday. Several days before 3 May, when K and G would have us believe she was “abducted”.
• the death was covered up and an action plan was formulated.
• the crêche records were falsified.
However, the drift of this thread throughout has been that there was a substitute Madeleine, with a clear implication that this was planned in advance, with the 'substitute Madeleine' already there in advance. So the theory ran, this was premeditated, and Madeleine probaly was killed/died, presumably deliberately, on the Saturday night.

Certain evidence was brought to bear on this thread to back up the suggestion that Madeleine died on the Saturday night. The theory included suggestions that the family with the substitute Madeleine flew out early morning on Friday, hence the interest in who checked out on the Friday morning etc. This was all beign actively discussed until yesterday.

The problem of 'the last photo' and the lack of DNA evidence of Madeleine in Praia da Luz seemed to fit into this theory.

However, kiko, your summary swings right away from those theories and proposes Madeleine's early death during the holiday. Though you have not been explicit, you do now appewar to have ruled out a substitute Madeleine having been used. Instead of the creche records being explained by everyone on the site thinking - wrongly - that the Madeleine they saw was really Madeleine McCann, now you are back to relying on the creche records having been falsified.

Although you do not say so, I assume you are pointing the finger at the McCanns and at least one of the creche workers/nannies as being responsible for the falsification - inless you think the falsification was perhaps authorised or carried out by those higher up?

I just think for the record - whilst we are sumamrising - that it must be clearly stated that these two alternative theories have been discussed on this thread. The one you have just proposed is out of line with most of the thinking on this thread so far.

However, I have said all along that I prefer the 'early death and cover-up' explanation to the 'it was premediated with a substitute Madeleine in place from the start' theory.

I don't think there is sufficient evidence on this thread or elswhere to say which of these two hypotheses better fits the facts, but maybe you have more evidence or analysis that we don't yet know about.
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Post by Judge Mental 26.02.11 22:01

Get 'em Gonçalo wrote:
kikoraton wrote:The eagle has flown. It is circling. It can see its prey down there in the Rothley Towers. But they don't know when or from which direction it will strike.

thumbsup

A chill ran straight down the old spine whilst reading about this eagle. One would swear on oath that a draughty wind seemed to whip into this room, and the curtains billowed out in a sort of ''whoosh''. In much the same way as it happened to Kate McCann, on one of the many checks which she and her husband, and all their friends were allegedly doing every hour/half hour/fifteen minutes/ten minutes/five minutes/take your pick.
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Post by kikoraton 27.02.11 8:10

Tony, I have deliberately been very sparing with my words. I haven't changed my view one jot, you will be pleased to hear!! Substitute, without a doubt. (I was terribly surprised when nobody took me up on my suggestion that the eagle knows who she was, a few pages back). Hey, ho.
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Post by Guest 27.02.11 8:48

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] I've got it [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] and now I feel like really celebrating, is it the 4th of July yet?

Halligen will have even bigger problems now. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
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How Maddie's creche attendance was "arranged" - Page 33 Empty kiko's theories - some questions

Post by Tony Bennett 27.02.11 8:52

kikoraton wrote:Tony, I have deliberately been very sparing with my words. I haven't changed my view one jot, you will be pleased to hear!! Substitute, without a doubt. (I was terribly surprised when nobody took me up on my suggestion that the eagle knows who she was, a few pages back). Hey, ho.

Noted. And I am sure you have your reasons for your economy of words.

However, the summary is so short as for us - well me, anyway - to be unclear as to what you are saying.

For example, you said: "The death was covered up and an action plan was formulated".

It appears from that, that you are saying there was no 'substitute Madeleine' there at the beginning of the holiday i.e. that a substitute Madeleine was not part of the plan. That would also appear to rule out premeditation (unless I have misunderstood something).

I have to confess that it is hard to see how a substitute Madeleine could have been conjured up following an unexpected death of Madeleine on holiday. Obviously you have your own ideas as to who that substitute Madeleine was, or might have been, but then you would have to explain all the creche workers' statements about a child they knew called 'Madeleine' or 'Maddie'.

If you really have cracked it all, well good luck to you.

QUESTIONS

If you don't mind, whilst we are talking, there are two findings of your research that I am especially interested in, could you help please:

1. Do you have a direct source please for your claim that Dr Gerald McCann and Robert Murat each switched off their mobile 'phnes within 6 minutes of each other on the afternoon of 2 May and agains witchd themn o nagin within 6 minutes of ecah other around 11.00pm on 3 May? This assertion has as you may know been challenged on some of the McCann-believer forums. Do we know the actual mobile 'phone numbers they were using?

2. Are you able to summarise the main features of the mobile 'phone evidence? (that is, of the McCanns, of the Tapas 7, and of Robert Murat and his circle). I am surmising that within those records there are cluses about when a death or accident to Madeleine may have occurred. I'm not asking you to draw conclusions or speculate, but, in summary, what are the main curiosities revealed by your trawl of the mobile 'phone records?

I would also be interested in your view of whether or not, late on Monday 30 April, Robert Murat was in effect 'summoned' by the McCanns to Portugal e.g. to find a place to store Madeleine, or to act as translator, or to act as the 'Fall Guy' etc. - or maybe all three.

I find it very hard to believe that his early morning flight from Exeter on Tuesday 1 May was unrelated to Madeleine.

That's all
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Post by theolivebranch 27.02.11 9:11

kikoraton wrote:Tony, I have deliberately been very sparing with my words. I haven't changed my view one jot, you will be pleased to hear!! Substitute, without a doubt. (I was terribly surprised when nobody took me up on my suggestion that the eagle knows who she was, a few pages back). Hey, ho.

Oh hec Kiko, Stella has got it, I have not [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] I am trying [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] very trying [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
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Post by Guest 27.02.11 9:17

Here you go Olive [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Spot the Eagle !!

I don't know anything for definite of course, but I do love a cryptic clue.
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Post by theolivebranch 27.02.11 9:39

Stella wrote:Here you go Olive [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Spot the Eagle !!

I don't know anything for definite of course, but I do love a cryptic clue.

Stella [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
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Post by kikoraton 27.02.11 11:44

Be back later. No, I don't think you've got it, Stella!
The eagle is simply a metaphor for kiko's and his colleague's conclusions, which are now circulating (circling) where they might one day have the desired effect.
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Post by kikoraton 27.02.11 11:53

ANSWERS

Yes, not only the McCann-believers but also the Murat-fans didn't like my assertion about the coinciding mobile inactivity. That's why I believe it is very important evidence of collusion. But it can all be found in the PJ's Relatório de Análise dos Primeiros 11 Volumes (Fls 1 - 3004) do Inquérito NUIPC 201/07.0GALGS.
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Post by theolivebranch 27.02.11 13:29

kikoraton wrote:Be back later. No, I don't think you've got it, Stella!
The eagle is simply a metaphor for kiko's and his colleague's conclusions, which are now circulating (circling) where they might one day have the desired effect.

Well done Kikoraton and colleagues, very well done. You are one of the heavy weights on this forum, and I am not being rude there. That is why we get so much attention.
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Post by littlepixie 27.02.11 17:12

Well, Kiko I am praying that someone will act and soon. This farce has to be stopped before they hurt anymore peoples children. The Hewlett story today has sickened me.
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Post by kikoraton 27.02.11 17:57

As for Murat's return from Exeter to PdL, we got very excited about it when we inferred from the PJ statement that he had booked it very early on 1 May, then travelled with hours. But it became less interesting when somebody on MCF showed, quite convincingly I think, that the translation was muddled, and he had in fact booked it in the early hours of 30 April. Altho it was someone who was always trying to knock my ideas, I didn't bother to argue because they may well have been correct, and anyway, who is to say at this stage?
In either case, it's awfully late to book a flight. Did he travel alone? Somewhere in the suppressed files, I've got an idea there's a statement from a woman who was on the same flight. Maybe the Murats had some influence or understanding with the airline: Flybe is based at Jack Walker House in Exeter.
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Post by kikoraton 28.02.11 8:49

30 April
Complete silence from GM and KM

1 May
Complete silence from GM
KM – 8 texts or calls during daylight hours. PJ records do not reveal with whom
KM – 6 texts 2216 - 2228

2 May
GM takes 11 voicemail calls, without replying to any. Apart from accessing his message centre, his mobile is inactive after 1549
RM’s mobile is inactive after 1545

I infer that somebody gave RM and GM a signal to stop using their mobiles around 1545. RM had been in touch with his lawyer four times that day. The last at 1544.
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Post by Guest 28.02.11 9:39

kikoraton wrote:30 April
Complete silence from GM and KM

Which is also the same day, well the afternoon in particular, that something very odd happened in the creche. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Shame about my guess though, but never mind. Perhaps I had a premonition? [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
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