Re: How Maddie's creche attendance was "arranged"

by Guest 04.12.10 11:08

soulthief wrote:
Stella wrote:
soulthief wrote:
Thanks Stella I am back with it, so maybe the cot was in their room so the twins didn't know madeleine was gone because they thought she was in another room? Perhaps whatever happened happened in their room and they wanted the crime scene to be elsewhere, E.G in the other bedroom.

I don't think it was for that reason soultheif. What would the McCann's have told the twins at meal times?

I'm thinking that maybe, Kate and Gerry could not face each other by that stage, so perhaps they had made some sort of deal along the lines of, you sleep in that room with one twin, I'll sleep in the other room with the other twin. Hence why only one side of the McCann's bed looked slept in and why only one of the beds in the children's room was slept in, followed by the Kate confession that she had slept in the one under the window.

If so, this could be another tiny piece of evidence pointing to death before the morning of the 2nd.
Thanks I definitely do get it...this time! Which brings me on to something I have often wondered, presuming Madeleine met a fatal accident when they were out boozing it up with their mates, what I don't get is this. Say my husband and I decided to leave the kids unattended, and on our return one of them was injured or dead, if it had been my husband idea to leave them alone I would be cursing him up in arms and he would be the same if it was my suggestion, how are they not at each other's throats over this?

I do not believe that any of the children were left alone. Matt in his statement said something along the lines of wanting rooms close to each other to share baby sitting. He also let slip that after the alarm was raised, going to check on Grace "up stairs". His room was on the ground floor. Not unless she was with all the other children in Payne's apartment !!!

by **Tony Bennett** 04.12.10 11:24

Stella wrote:I do not believe that any of the children were left alone. Matt in his statement said something along the lines of wanting rooms close to each other to share baby sitting. He also let slip that after the alarm was raised, going to check on Grace "upstairs". His room was on the ground floor. Not unless she was with all the other children in Payne's apartment !!!

Excellent points being discussed here.

Neither do I believe the children were left alone.

I recall a reference, I think made by Goncalo Amaral back in 2008, to some evidence that the children were all being baby-sat 'in one room'. There was a lot of discussion about that on the old 3As.

I may be wrong here, but when I went through all the witness statements of the 'Tapas 9', I seem to recall that every night, or almost every night, one male of the 'Tapas 9' was always absent from the group, either because they were unwell themselves, or one of the children was said to be ill. I thought it was very odd at the time.

Referring to the cots, there is this:

[Extract from Madeleine Foundation article]

In Dr Gerald McCann’s statement of 4 May (the day after Madeleine was reported missing), he says that: “Yesterday [3 May], after the daily routines, Madeleine and and the twins were put to bed in their respective beds at 7.30pm”. Yet when the police arrived at about 11.00pm, they found two cots in the children’s room in the McCanns’ apartment, not a bed or beds. Moreover, in his Vanity Fair interview in January 2008, Dr Gerald McCann said: “The scene was stark. On one bed the twins lay sleeping. In the next, lay [Cuddle Cat], which Madeleine was never without”. Once again, Dr McCann refers to beds, whereas two cots were found in the room that night.

Finally, of course, there is Dr Kate McCann's statement, where she says that Dr Matthew Oldfield, at around 9.30pm on Thursday 3 May, offered to go and 'check on Maddy'. If all three children were really in that room, why did he not say 'I'll check on the children'?

They trip themsleves up so many times.

by ufercoffy 04.12.10 11:27

Tony Bennett wrote:They trip themsleves up so many times.

Yep, and still they roam free around the streets of Rothley and the corridors of Leicester hospitals Shocked

.

by Guest 04.12.10 11:53

Tony Bennett wrote:
I recall a reference, I think made by Goncalo Amaral back in 2008, to some evidence that the children were all being baby-sat 'in one room'. There was a lot of discussion about that on the old 3As.

I may be wrong here, but when I went through all the witness statements of the 'Tapas 9', I seem to recall that every night, or almost every night, one male of the 'Tapas 9' was always absent from the group, either because they were unwell themselves, or one of the children was said to be ill. I thought it was very odd at the time.

I think the PJ came very close to the truth, except they had the wrong apartment. They assumed it was 5a, I'm betting it was 5H, Payne's apartment. The story of the children "all having lunch there every day", covers any forensics that may have been found there !! but I'm betting they never thought to sweep that apartment.

by littlepixie 04.12.10 19:10

I remember Gerry saying something like it couldnt have happened as she wasnt on her own.
Can't remember what or where I read this.

Its here.
Gerry McCann's arguido statement: 07 September 2007
"It is not true that Madeleine had been crying that night for an hour and 15 minutes, because she was not alone all that time."

So he is not saying she was not alone, just that she was not alone for all that time.

by **Tony Bennett** 04.12.10 23:11

littlepixie wrote:I remember Gerry saying something like it couldn't have happened as she wasn't on her own.
Can't remember what or where I read this. Its here.

Gerry McCann's arguido statement: 07 September 2007

"It is not true that Madeleine had been crying that night for an hour and 15 minutes, because she was not alone all that time."

So he is not saying she was not alone, just that she was not alone for all that time.

That is a statement which, as the saying (or the song*) goes, gives us many more questions than answers.

* [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

by Guest 05.12.10 12:15

Other things to consider:

On Sunday 29th, the McCann's had breakfast in the Millennium between 7.30-8.30. Every day after that, they had breakfast in their room. Rendering the possibility that something happened on the 29th, for them to change routine?

E**a O’Brien did not attend crèche on the morning of the 29th, but that afternoon, both E**a and a Madeleine were signed in at exactly the same time and just 5 minutes after EN.

by soulthief 05.12.10 13:29

Stella wrote:Other things to consider:

On Sunday 29th, the McCann's had breakfast in the Millennium between 7.30-8.30. Every day after that, they had breakfast in their room. Rendering the possibility that something happened on the 29th, for them to change routine?

E**a O’Brien did not attend crèche on the morning of the 29th, but that afternoon, both E**a and a Madeleine were signed in at exactly the same time and just 5 minutes after EN.

Well pointed out and further proof if you ask me that Madeleine was long gone before the McCanns claim.

by gazza5678 05.12.10 14:54

This post from textusa blog: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] provides evidence that the bed by the window in the childrens' room in 5A was slept in by a child (as opposed to an adult). Does the discussion above imply that this was not indeed Maddie but one (or both) of the twins? Were beds made by staff and with what frequency?

by kikoraton 05.12.10 16:22

7.30 - 8.30 is awful early to trot off to the Millenium (too far away for evening meals?) for breakfast on your first day. Especially as it was a signing-in-your-kids-and-getting-to know-each-other morning. That is, they didn't need to arrive at the Lobster Club pronto. If I were asked to guess, I'd say they went there with a full complement, just to be seen.
Who saw them there? Are there any eye witnesses?

by gazza5678 05.12.10 22:42

This post is based on [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] from Textusa.

This Daily Mail article from 25th September 2007 seems relevant: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] If this article is correct Charlotte Pennington would seem she was the first independant witness on the scene in apartment 5a. From the article:

Just before 10pm the last mother arrived to collect her childfrom the creche and mentioned that she had just bumped into a man,who had been shouting a name."She didn't get the name, but she said it sounded something like'Abbey, Gabby or Maddie'. We automatically went into lost-childprocedure. In these situations, the first thing we do isinvestigate the scene."We knew that one of the other nanny's charges was called Maddie. We told the head of department what had happened and she took us straight to the apartment."There were no children in the room. The twins had been taken out already, I think by one of the McCanns' friends."When we were coming out we saw Kate and she was screaming:'They've taken her. They've taken her!'

Clearly the twins were present when the police arrived later so had they not yet been placed in the room rather than been taken out?

In her police statement at [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Charlotte said

She did not enter the residence in question

i.e. apartment 5A. So did someone 'suggest' she made a statement to the police to that effect? But then why change her statement when interviewed by the Daily Mail?

by Guest 06.12.10 10:01

kikoraton wrote:7.30 - 8.30 is awful early to trot off to the Millenium (too far away for evening meals?) for breakfast on your first day. Especially as it was a signing-in-your-kids-and-getting-to know-each-other morning. That is, they didn't need to arrive at the Lobster Club pronto. If I were asked to guess, I'd say they went there with a full complement, just to be seen.
Who saw them there? Are there any eye witnesses?

It is early considering that they had 3 children to get washed, dressed and everyone had to walk there. Which is why I started looking into what the McCann's had to say, compared to the breakfast staff. Here is some of the interesting bits.

Witness Statement of Alexandra Nicole de Sousa
Date: 2007 – 05 – 08 Occupation: Waitress Place of Work: Millenium Restaurant, OC

When asked, she says she recalls the parents of the girl who disappeared as they dined in the restaurant on the day they arrived in Portugal, on a Saturday, she does not remember the date. She say that she remembers the twins, Madeleine’s siblings, but not Madeleine. although she recognises that she must have seen her in the company of her parents.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Witness Statement of Cecilia Paula Dias Firmino do Carmo
Date/Time: 2007/05/06 22H00 Occupation: Public Relations Place of Work: Millenium restaurant, OC.

When asked, she says that she knows the parents, the siblings and Madeleine. She received them for breakfast on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday, she does not know whether they went for breakfast on Sunday or Monday, as these were her days off. She says that breakfast was served between 08.00 and 10.00 and that the McCanns would arrive between 08.00 and 09.00.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Witness Statement of John Sholto Young
Date: 2007-05-08 Occupation: Waiter, Millenium Restaurant

After seeing their [the McCann’s] picture, (which must have been provided by Murat who translated for him) he immediately remembered that he had seen them having breakfast in the restaurant where he works
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Witness statement of Luis Miguel de Sousa Barros
Date: 2007/05/08 Occupation: Barman Millenium Restaurant

Apart from breakfast, which they would eat every day in the Millenium restaurant, dinner on Saturday night was the only meal they had there because the Tapas bar did not serve dinner on Saturdays. He remembered that Saturdays dinner was a buffet service and that he had been very close to the group, giving them all the necessary indications related to the service. In spite not recalling Madeleine’s exact features, he presumes she was there with the other children present.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

by kikoraton 06.12.10 17:57

ohhhhh.......I thought they had breakfast in the apartment never mind

by Shibboleth 06.12.10 18:09

kikoraton wrote:ohhhhh.......I thought they had breakfast in the apartment [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

So did I. I am sure I read that somewhere.

by Guest 07.12.10 11:55

Yes, according to the McCann's, from the 30th onwards, they had breakfast every morning in their apartment.

How can so many members of staff all get it wrong though ?

The McCann's were the only ones with 3 children and would easily stand out from the rest, would they not ? winkwink

by **Tony Bennett** 07.12.10 20:41

The list of outright contradictions between the witnesses about exactly what happened that week groweth

by Judge Mental 07.12.10 21:29

Tony Bennett wrote:The list of outright contradictions between the witnesses about exactly what happened that week groweth

One would have thought that this alone was good enough reason to start some serious and intensive questioning of the witnesses.

by **Tony Bennett** 07.12.10 21:39

Judge Mental wrote:
Tony Bennett wrote:The list of outright contradictions between the witnesses about exactly what happened that week groweth

One would have thought that this alone was good enough reason to start some serious and intensive questioning of the witnesses.

100% agreed.

Some inconsistencies are inevitable when witnesses try to recall a certain event or incident.

But these are outright contradictions, and there are many of them.

A comprehensive list should be compiled and forwarded to Leicestershire Police, who will be duty bound to investigate them themselves OR refer them to the Policia Judiciara in Portugal.

This time the interrogation of all the witnesses should be probative and seaching, not like the chat show that took place during the Rogatories.

by Autumn 07.12.10 21:48

Tony Bennett wrote:
Judge Mental wrote:
Tony Bennett wrote:The list of outright contradictions between the witnesses about exactly what happened that week groweth

One would have thought that this alone was good enough reason to start some serious and intensive questioning of the witnesses.
100% agreed.

Some inconsistencies are inevitable when witnesses try to recall a certain event or incident.

But these are outright contradictions, and there are many of them.

A comprehensive list should be compiled and forwarded to Leicestershire Police, who will be duty bound to investigate them themselves OR refer them to the Policia Judiciara in Portugal.

This time the interrogation of all the witnesses should be probative and seaching, not like the chat show that took place during the Rogatories.

Now that is a very good idea thumbsup

by Guest 08.12.10 9:36

Stella wrote:
Witness statement of Luis Miguel de Sousa Barros
Date: 2007/05/08 Occupation: Barman Millenium Restaurant

Apart from breakfast, which they would eat every day in the Millenium restaurant, dinner on Saturday night was the only meal they had there because the Tapas bar did not serve dinner on Saturdays. He remembered that Saturdays dinner was a buffet service and that he had been very close to the group, giving them all the necessary indications related to the service. In spite not recalling Madeleine’s exact features, he presumes she was there with the other children present.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I am wondering if this is a translation issue? I have copied the whole section below and what I noticed the second time round was that at breakfast time he was not there, when it was served. Which is not the same thing as seeing them there. Or he is saying that he was not there to serve them, but he saw them when he started work at 8 am. ??

Also, I have just noticed that he is suggesting that the tapas was booked DURING the time that all of the children were having high-tea, which means 5pm on Sunday 29th. Not that morning, which contradicts all of the tapas 7 and also the tapas receptionist.

He remembered being in the presence of the group Madeleine belonged to, composed of nine adults and eight children on the 28th April, the day they arrived at the resort. Apart from breakfast, which they would eat every day in the Millenium restaurant, dinner on Saturday night was the only meal they had there because the Tapas bar did not serve dinner on Saturdays. He remembered that Saturdays dinner was a buffet service and that he had been very close to the group, giving them all the necessary indications related to the service. In spite not recalling Madeleine’s exact features, he presumes she was there with the other children present. He did not notice anything particular about the girl, nor was there any difference in the normal tranquillity in spite of the fact that there were 8 children.

He does not remember serving breakfast to the group, given that this would occur before he began work.

When asked he says that on a date he cannot remember, the group, just the adults because the children were dining with the nannies, had been too late in making their dinner reservation at the Tapas, and an exception was made, authorised by his boss Steve, as the Tapas only provides for 20 dinners for half board clients as was the case.

He think that this request was made in order to be close to the children who had their meals with the nannies, and to be close to the apartments.

He has nothing else to add.

Reads, ratifies, signs.

by soulthief 08.12.10 10:50

Lets not forget the shelf above the bed where the perp put cuddlecat, a shelf that never existed,,and Gerry said, cuddlecat was on the bed contradicting kate

by kikoraton 08.12.10 12:31

As for the barman's evidence, it seems to me that he is saying that on at least one occasion the children were being looked after by nannies during evening dinner. Surely the parents were cruelly forced to look after their children during the lunch break, so he can't be referring to that, can he????????

by Guest 08.12.10 15:33

That's interesting. I looked at all the list of statements from the OC staff list and Millennium staff list and there was only 1 Steve, this one. Who also happens to have a title of catering manager. BUT, look at the bit in red !!!

Witness Statement of Steven Marcos Rodrigues Cova

Date: 2007/05/08 Occupation: Catering Manager Place of Work: Ocean Club

He has worked at the OC since January 2007. Within his functions he supervises all that is related to the catering in the different restaurants belonging to the resort. His working hours are not fixed but he generally works from 10.00 to 19.00. In the implementation of his functions he circulates through the entire resort, knowing the place relatively well.

When questioned he says he knows about the disappearance of the English girl Madeleine, which he found out about at around 02.00 on the morning of 4th May 2007, by means of a phone call he received from the resort manager, who said he had contacts with a person linked to the local radio station, with the aim of proceeding to spread the news about the girl’s disappearance.

He says that on the day of the girl’s disappearance he worked at the resort until 20.00. He said that he was absent from Portugal between Sunday 29th April and the 2nd May 2007.He never had any contact with the girl or her family before the disappearance and heard about them from the press.

He did not see or hear anything strange in the days preceding the disappearance. He has no further information.

Reads, ratifies, signs

by Guest 08.12.10 15:36

From all the statements I have read so far, it does not look like anyone would be able to identify Madeleine. Look at how many said something like, oh well she must have been there !!! aaagh

by kikoraton 08.12.10 17:04

I had the idea, possibly erroneous, that the Steve in question was British. Probably just me, assuming things. But you're right, Stella - when push comes to shove, there are precious few people who could say a single word about how Maddie looked or behaved.