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Possible Timeline ? Discuss

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Re: Possible Timeline ? Discuss

Post by nglfi on 16.03.18 9:13

@mezzyd wrote:
@HiDeHo wrote:
@Verdi wrote:
@Crackfox wrote:.... another thing to remember is CB [Catriona Baker] said she wanted to retract the comment she made that Maddie preferred the company of boys. This suggests there is a withheld statement from KB [Catriona Baker] because there isn't a statement in which she makes this claim in the file is there?



Line 52/53 - a very rough translation..

.... she [Catriona Baker] says that she [Madeleine] was a very active and social child, however giving her closest attention to the boys of the group that belonged


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CATRIONA-TREASA.htm


Thanks Verdi.

Interesting to see the reason it was not noticed is because of the translations.



I would like to suggest a possible reason for the confusion over Cat's statement about giving attention to the boys, being a mistranslation. In some languages, notably Spanish, where there is a similar masculine & feminine version of the same noun, the plural version which include both masculine & feminine would be formed by adding an s to the masculine word.
Menino = boy
Menina = girl
Meninos could mean boys or boys & girls
Meninas = girls.

If Cat's statement was about boys & girls, ie sociable with all the other children, Murat might well have chosen to translate that by the word meninos, then when the files were translated back into English meninos mistakenly translated as boys only.
I think this is a plausible theory but please correct me if this does not apply to Portuguese.
I can confirm this does apply to Portuguese and what you've said is correct. However, if CB just meant a group of boys and girls together, not just boys, then the rest of the sentence doesn' make sense to me. 

If that is what was meant, CB would be saying that Madeleine paid most attention to the kids of the group (boys and girls) . But the entire group was comprised of children so I don' think that is what was meant. I can't understand why she would want to correct her statement regarding that though, it is odd.

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Re: Possible Timeline ? Discuss

Post by nglfi on 16.03.18 9:18

Unless it can be translated as 'she paid most attention to the children in the Lobster group' . But that doesn't seem to make a lot of sense either, seeing as she was only ever in the Lobster group.

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Re: Possible Timeline ? Discuss

Post by HiDeHo on 16.03.18 13:28

@nglfi wrote:Unless it can be translated as 'she paid most attention to the children in the Lobster group' . But that doesn't seem to make a lot of sense either, seeing as she was only ever in the Lobster group.


The Lobster group and the 'Sharks' group shared the same room so would have been approx 14 children when all were there
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Re: Possible Timeline ? Discuss

Post by nglfi on 16.03.18 14:43

Ah that makes sense then, so it could be distinguishing between sharks and lobsters.

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Re: Possible Timeline ? Discuss

Post by Crackfox on 16.03.18 23:10

I've re-read JT and ROB's statements today and there's something puzzling me which fits this topic. JT is quite clear that the group, minus McCanns, all had lunch in the Paynes' apartment each day, apart from May 3 when she says they split into two groups. In contrast, her partner ROB says this:

We didn't eat out at lunchtime, we generally ate with Rachel and Matt and this was in our apartment or theirs, as well as David and Fiona's. After Madeleine disappeared we all began eating lunch at David and Fiona's apartment. '
Is this a Freudian slip? Is he leaking out the fact Madeleine disappeared earlier in the week because his partner states this routine started much earlier? If not - and maybe he wasn't around at lunchtimes and didn't know the routine - why would they all start socialising at lunchtimes after the disappearance? This seems counter intuitive to me. Certainly ROB's assertion that they all started eating lunch together at the Paynes' apartment after the disappearance fits with a theory of a much earlier disappearance, IMO.

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Re: Possible Timeline ? Discuss

Post by sar on 16.03.18 23:41

@nglfi wrote:Ah that makes sense then, so it could be distinguishing between sharks and lobsters.
Sharks and the Jets!

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Re: Possible Timeline ? Discuss

Post by polyenne on 17.03.18 7:01

Crackfox @105
I’ve often wondered how the abduction plan was discussed between the T9. Certainly not over a large Tapas table in the evening in earshot of waiters and other diners.
Plus all the deleted telephone calls and texts.
And, allegedly, the McCanns took breakfast and lunch in their own apartment away from the T7.
So, could the McCanns have been receiving advice each day, discussing it over breakfast and writing notes before disseminating said notes to a key T7 delegate (DP ?) such that the T7 could discuss together over lunch ? That would implicate Dianne too when I’d often assumed she was “out of the loop”

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Re: Possible Timeline ? Discuss

Post by Crackfox on 17.03.18 8:01

@polyenne wrote:Crackfox @105
I’ve often wondered how the abduction plan was discussed between the T9. Certainly not over a large Tapas table in the evening in earshot of waiters and other diners.
Plus all the deleted telephone calls and texts.
And, allegedly, the McCanns took breakfast and lunch in their own apartment away from the T7.
So, could the McCanns have been receiving advice each day, discussing it over breakfast and writing notes before disseminating said notes to a key T7 delegate (DP ?) such that the T7 could discuss together over lunch ? That would implicate Dianne too when I’d often assumed she was “out of the loop”
I re-read quite a lot of statements yesterday, looking specifically at what each person said about lunchtime. Dianne seemed to be evasive, suggesting the week before the disappearance and the time spent after the disappearance, when the remains of the group continued to congregation at the Paynes' apartment all blurred in to one. What struck me as odd about this is that surely the mood after the disappearance would have been far more subdued, so wouldn't that serve to make the time before the disappearance stand out clearly, as very separate and not all blur in to one? Unless the mood was not that different and a shadow was cast early on - then I can see how it might all blur in to one. Once again I read a strategy here, casual sightings at a playground can be far more easily explained as mistaken but saying you had lunch together would be far more problematic if it transpired that that wasn't the case. So I tend towards a situation as you have put forward - one were the nightmate started before May 3 and that's why the time both before and after this date seems to blur in to one.

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Re: Possible Timeline ? Discuss

Post by Phoebe on 17.03.18 10:08

We only have the Tapas 7 group's word for what went on at lunchtime. It is impossible to prove or disprove whether what they later claimed was true. IMO it could be a contrived attempt to distance themselves from the McCanns during that week - "Honestly, we hardly saw them, except at dinner. We don't have any inside information about how things were between Kate and Gerry or between the parents and the children, we weren't all that friendly with them" This claim of the McCanns not being with them every lunchtime only surfaced during the rigged rogatory interviews. Up to this the alleged absence of the McCanns from a lunchtime routine is not mentioned. It smacks of damage limitation to me.

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Re: Possible Timeline ? Discuss

Post by polyenne on 17.03.18 10:41

In the circumstances to which I subscribe, I can’t reconcile the desire to distance themselves from the McCanns when they would be thrown together in “a pact” days later.

I feel any distancing might be so that they could not say with any certainty that they saw Madeleine.

It sounds as though Gerry was “friendly” with only David Payne with the others being acquaintances so to speak. Seeing Gerry on the countless post-abduction interviews, I would surmise that Gerry might have been a difficult person from time to time, not an easy nut to crack or get close to. Driven & compartmented. Just my opinion.

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Re: Possible Timeline ? Discuss

Post by Verdi on 17.03.18 12:58

Kate McCann Witness statement - 4th May 2007

The day after their arrival, they went for breakfast at around 7.30/8.30 at the Ocean Club, in a bar situated some distance from the apartment. On the following days, because the bar was quite far away, they started buying supplies from the "BAPTISTE" supermarket, located on the same road as the apartment and they had their first meal of the day in the apartment.

At 12.30pm, the parents would collect their children and have lunch in their apartment since they have provisions.

Gerry McCann's witness statement - 4th May 2007


As regards routines, he says that on Sunday they had breakfast between 07.30 and 08.30 at the OC Bar at a few metres distance from the apartment. During the following days, because of the fact that the bar was quite far away, they began to buy food at a supermarket situated in the same street as the apartment, he cannot remember the name of the supermarket and they would have breakfast in the apartment.

 At this time - 12.30 - the parents would collect the children and have lunch in the apartment, which had a kitchen.

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Re: Possible Timeline ? Discuss

Post by polyenne on 17.03.18 13:03

Thus the cleaner (or her daughter) was possibly quite correct in sighting Madeleine and the rest of her family trotting up to the Payne’s ON SUNDAY, as every day thereafter they ate breakfast & lunch in 5A

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Re: Possible Timeline ? Discuss

Post by Crackfox on 18.03.18 23:22

I have a question I can't find the answer to and hope someone can help. The McCanns claim they stopped going for breakfast at the Millennial restaurant as it was too far to walk with three small children. I read it was quite a distance to walk to the Kids' Clubs. How far was it from the Millennial to the clubs? If you went for breakfast at the Millennial would you be going out of the way from these clubs? I would have thought the restaurant would be close to other facilities - was that not the case here? What I'm getting at is was the reason given by the McCanns a valid one or would they be walking a distance anyway to get to the clubs?

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Re: Possible Timeline ? Discuss

Post by Phoebe on 19.03.18 0:47

@Crackfox wrote:I have a question I can't find the answer to and hope someone can help. The McCanns claim they stopped going for breakfast at the Millennial restaurant as it was too far to walk with three small children. I read it was quite a distance to walk to the Kids' Clubs. How far was it from the Millennial to the clubs? If you went for breakfast at the Millennial would you be going out of the way from these clubs? I would have thought the restaurant would be close to other facilities - was that not the case here? What I'm getting at is was the reason given by the McCanns a valid one or would they be walking a distance anyway to get to the clubs?
I believe the twins' creche was situated beside the Tapas, so the walk involved would have been from 5A to the Millenium then Madeleine would have needed to be brought to her creche over the main reception and the twins walked back to the Tapas bar which was close to 5A (49. something feet as the crow flies according to Kate  big grin)

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Re: Possible Timeline ? Discuss

Post by HiDeHo on 19.03.18 1:51

@Phoebe wrote:
@Crackfox wrote:I have a question I can't find the answer to and hope someone can help. The McCanns claim they stopped going for breakfast at the Millennial restaurant as it was too far to walk with three small children. I read it was quite a distance to walk to the Kids' Clubs. How far was it from the Millennial to the clubs? If you went for breakfast at the Millennial would you be going out of the way from these clubs? I would have thought the restaurant would be close to other facilities - was that not the case here? What I'm getting at is was the reason given by the McCanns a valid one or would they be walking a distance anyway to get to the clubs?
I believe the twins' creche was situated beside the Tapas, so the walk involved would have been from 5A to the Millenium then Madeleine would have needed to be brought to her creche over the main reception and the twins walked back to the Tapas bar which was close to 5A (49. something feet as the crow flies according to Kate  big grin)

















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Re: Possible Timeline ? Discuss

Post by HiDeHo on 19.03.18 2:33




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Re: Possible Timeline ? Discuss

Post by Crackfox on 19.03.18 7:40

Thank you both that's really helpful (I love diagrams big grin ). So it would be quite a trek but with my parent head on I'm thinking you walk there, have a break whilst you have breakfast and then  walk back the more scenic route and drop M off first. Maybe not great but then with help from maybe one of the friends who had a spare hand perfectly doable - and an opportunity to get some exercise for the kids - which I thought they'd want. Not much further than the beach which would be logistically more difficult I imagine. Is it straightforward? It looks pretty straightforward to me.

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Re: Possible Timeline ? Discuss

Post by polyenne on 19.03.18 7:43

Everything is straightforward.........but not where the McCanns are concerned

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Re: Possible Timeline ? Discuss

Post by Crackfox on 19.03.18 8:06

Umm I'm thinking it's quite a long walk from the Mini Club to high tea at the area near the tapas restaurant, at a time when the kids are likely to be more fractious. It doesn't stack up IMO.

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Re: Possible Timeline ? Discuss

Post by HiDeHo on 19.03.18 12:48

Please let me know if there are any other maps/locations/routes you would like






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Re: Possible Timeline ? Discuss

Post by Crackfox on 19.03.18 19:39

Thank you HiDeho the diagrams are fab.

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