Forensics Revisited

Verdi wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Between my post submission and your reply, you haven't even had time to read and digest.  Your response bears testimony to that simple fact.

I'm wasting my time here, something I do not appreciate.   Please don't expect anything further from me on the subject.

Phoebe wrote: However, Martin Grime, in his report does state that he feels Eddie was alerting to cadaver scent

Phoebe wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I can't envision them moving say, clothing or a towel/sheet which had been in contact with a body, from the bedroom, to behind the sofa to various spots in the garden after the corpse had been hidden elsewhere! Perhaps if these things were placed in a bag of some sort it would make more sense but why bother keeping them at all? If they had found such a good hiding place for Madeleine's body (as they obviously did!) surely they would have left any such incriminating items there too? I doubt cuddlecat was responsible for this cross contamination as the bed hadn't been contaminated despite cuddle cat lying on it. Kate's clothing and the red T shirt also failed to cross contaminate other clothing/furniture. And if we are to believe they had help from immediately after the death surely those who aided and abetted them would have taken care of such matters rather than handing them back such items to dispose of ? High powered help would be well aware of the importance of leaving no traces. My gut instinct is that the contamination is from poor Madeleine's corpse and places it rested on its way to "disposal"( Gerry's word).

MayMuse wrote:

Verdi wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Between my post submission and your reply, you haven't even had time to read and digest.  Your response bears testimony to that simple fact.

I'm wasting my time here, something I do not appreciate.   Please don't expect anything further from me on the subject.

I have read and digested since 2007!

Dismissed again when you cannot answer ? 
Testament to what you frequently do Verdi, which is sad and quite frankly not appreciated ,as if it's your time wasted, it is mine also!




Both dogs were used at separate times to avoid confusion for the purpose of their specific skills. IF Eddie alerted to human blood behind the sofa as well as Keela does that negate his alert of cadaverine odour in other areas where human blood was not detected? 
No it does not neither does it suggest that a "body" lay for some time for the odour to develop in the apartment or that a "body" didn't ! Dogs dont know time, it is irrelevant...what is important is that "cadaverine" was detected in apartment 5a, the very same apartment which Madeleine as we are told went missing from! No other person or persons had died there.... for cadaverine to be present there has to be a "body" or contact with that "body". 

Unless of course you believe in "sea bass!" 


I am not stupid Verdi please do not treat me as if I am, not one of us has the authority of expert in this case, we all are trying to fathom what happened to Madeleine... we are all with opinion from digesting evidence, and input from others and a healthy intelligent debate should be encouraged, not a put down which is frequently observed! 

Good day!

CADAVER SCENT

The odour target of cadaver is scientifically explained through 'volatile organic
compounds' that in a certain configuration are received by the dog as a
receptor. Recognition then gives a conditioned response 'ALERT'. Despite
considerable research and analytical investigation the compounds cannot as
yet be replicated in laboratory processes. Therefore the 'alert' by dogs without
a tangible source cannot be forensically proven at this time. Cadaver scent
cannot readily be removed by cleaning as the compounds adhere to surfaces.
The scent can be 'masked' by bleach and other strong smelling odours but
the dog's olfactory system is able to isolate the odours and identify specific
compounds' and mixes. Cadaver scent contamination may be transferred in
numerous scenarios. Any contact with a cadaver which is then passed to any
other material may be recognised by the dog causing a 'trigger' indication.

MayMuse wrote:I agree Eddie was brought in as the EVRD ...to detect cadaver...of which he is most known for,  Keela for human blood... 

I do not believe that Keela was sent in after Eddie because Eddie detected blood behind the sofa...he detected cadaverine odour in that area and other locations, even outside in the garden area.....he sniffed all over the sofa, the back of the sofa in the corner, in the air  etc because he was "in scent" . Keela alert to human blood confirmed its presence under the tiles. 


Interestingly McCann and their followers try to discount in such a way as to undermine the cleverness,and training of the dogs and their handler in their accuracy! 

Now if an anaesthesiologist kept losing patients or they were waking mid op,  then that could be considered very unreliable couldnt it?

Phoebe wrote:Without hard evidence in the form of an actual body Eddie and Keela's findings of cadaver odour and blood in 5A are something which lead to interpretation of what this fact means. The P.J. and Dr. Amarel were of the opinion that this indicated -

"From the OFFICIAL POLICE FILES

10 September 2007
(Processo: VOL ,X, p. 2587-2602)

"....we conclude that:

- The minor Madeleine McCann DIED in the apartment 5A of the Ocean Club resort, on the night of May 3rd of 2007

 - It was performed a SIMULATION of kidnapping;
 
 - Kate McCann and Gerald McCann are INVOLVED in the occultation of the cadaver of their child Madeleine McCann;...

If we accept the Portuguese police conclusion above then it is reasonable to say that Madeleine's corpse was indeed in 5A for a period, which seems to be the crux of the dispute upthread. Where exactly in the apartment that corpse lay we cannot be sure but it does seem fairly reasonable to connect its position with the cadaver odour alerts methinks.


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Title of thread:  McCanns and the Internet Trolls


Back on topic please.  Mod

Verdi wrote:

MayMuse wrote:Considering I have read the reports, and have never blown anything out of proportion! 
Let's get this in perspective...

Yes, let's. 

You can't just pluck out random passages from the forensic reports to prove a point - that's not how it works.  The whole subject of the forensic evidence has to be taken into consideration and thus put into perspective, before selecting appropriate text for the purpose of commentary.  This is why I initially said that it will take time considering the length, detail and complexity of the subject as regards the disapearance of Madeleine McCann.

Concerning the subject of forensics, my original response to a fellow member's post related only to the following statement, I quote  ".... the dogs indicated that a body had lain in the apartment long enough for cadaverine to be detected by dogs, cadaverine that was also found on certain items of clothing....".

This statement is fundamentally incorrect, which I have been trying (without much success it would seem) to redress.  I totally understand why the particular phraseology was used but that's beside the point.  CMoMM is read by the thousands - members and guests - it only takes one incorrect statement or facetious comment to set the tongues wagging.  Anyone who has followed this case on the various fora and blogs will be aware of how quickly a false claim will grow legs and then roam around cyberspace for eternity - the cyber grapevine .  Trouble being that there are many people out there who have nothing better to do than propagate lies and rubbish in order to distort or distract from the truth.

So yes, let's do just starting with the dogs credentials ..

EVRD

'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.R.D.) will search for and
locate human remains and body fluids including blood in any environment or
terrain.

CSI HUMAN BLOOD DETECTING DOG

'Keela' The Crime Scene Investigation (C.S.I.) dog will search for and locate
exclusively human blood.

Stop there for a moment to ponder the dogs training, in particular the Enhanced Victim Recover Dog.  This is not a case of bark once for cadavarine bark twice for blood bark thrice for body fluid etc, we can leave that sort of nonsense at the door of the likes of the drole humorist - Clement Freud.

Moving on .. for the moment concentrating only on the dogs inspection of apartment 5a, follow the finger print trail..

Verbal Report by Martin Grime Relating to the Searches Carried out with the Dogs in the Ocean Club Apartments

Apartment 5 A

Ok what was done was we deployed the victim recovery dog into the apartment and by experience and the training of the dog what I first noticed is that as soon as I came in that the dog was very excited and as a handler I can pick up his body language etc and it would appear to me that as soon as he has come into the house he's picked up a scent that he recognises and he has then gone through the apartment trying to source where that scent source has come from and as he has worked through the house the only two places where he picks up enough scent to give me the bark alert are in this bedroom, in this corner where he was barking.

What we have to be able to understand in a situation such as this is in a hot climate with the apartment being closed down, the scent will build up in a particular area. If there isn't a scent source in here, i.e. a physical article where the scent is emitting from, any scent residue will collect in a particular place due to the air movement of the flat, the apartment and what I would say in this case is that there is enough scent in that area there for him to give me a bark indication but the source may not be in that cupboard, the source may well be in this room somewhere else but the air is actually pushing into that corner. But strong indication and I would say its positive for things that he is trained to find, which will be part of a separate debrief.

Moving onto the other rooms once he's found what he thinks he's looking for in this room, and we go into the bathroom and come into this bedroom he loses his interest because he's actually found the source that he was looking for, until we come over here and I think you've got it on video that when he first came in he was quite interested in the sofa but he didn't have access to the back of the sofa and when he's gone behind the sofa what I saw was that approximately in the centre of the wall where the window is, just along the tile area between the tiles and the wall, he's been scenting there a lot stronger than he has anywhere else and the when he's gone out there the second time he has decided yes that's what I'm looking for and that's when he has given me the bark indication.

What we should understand with this dog is that he only barks when he finds something, he won't bark at any other times. He won't bark at other dogs, he won't bark at strangers, he won't bark when somebody knocks on the door or anything like that. The only times I've ever known him bark since I've got him as a small puppy a) for his dinner and that's just excitement and that's one of the training methods we use to teach to bark when we want him to and when he actually finds something, he won't bark at other dogs, he won't bark at strangers, he won't bark when somebody knocks on the door or something like that, so again I would say that's a positive indication.

The second dog that we've seen work today is the crime scene dog Keela. She will only indicate to me when she has found human blood, only human blood and it is only blood and there must be something there physically for her to be able to alert to me that's she has actually found something. At this point over here where the victim recovery dog has indicated, as you saw on the video, the crime scene dog had actually given me what we call a passive indication where she freezes in this spot here which would indicate to me that there is some human blood there. She will find blood that's historically very old and she will find anybody's blood, any human blood, which is important to make sure that everybody knows.
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All five apartments were searched using the EVRD. The only alert indications were at apartment 5a, the reported scene.

The EVRD alerted in the rear bedroom of the apartment in the immediate right hand corner by the door.

Living room, behind sofa.

Veranda outside parent's bedroom.

Garden area directly under veranda.

My observation of the dog's behaviour in this instance was that the dog's behaviour changed immediately upon opening the front door to the apartment.He will normally remain in the sit position until released and tasked to search. On this occasion he broke the stay and entered the apartment with an aboveaverage interest. His behaviour was such that I believed him to be 'in scent' and I therefore allowed him to free search without direction to allow him to identify the source of his interest. He did so alerting in the rear bedroom.

I released him from this and tasked him to continue to search. He did so alerting in an area to the rear of the sofa in the lounge. The dog's behaviour for these alerts led me to the following opinions:

MINISTERIO PUBLICO DE PORTIMAO

The first alert was given with the dogs head in the air without a positive area being identified. This is the alert given by him when there is no tangible evidence to be located only the remaining scent.

The second alert was one where a definitive area was evident. The CSI dog was therefore deployed who gave specific alert indications to specific areas on the tiled floor area behind the sofa and on the curtain in the area that was in contact with the floor behind the sofa. This would indicate to the likely presence of human blood.

The forensic science support officers were then deployed to recover items for laboratory analysis.

There were no alert indications from the remaining properties. I did however see the dog search in the kitchen waste bins. These contained meat foodstuffs including pork and did not result in any false alert response.
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It's all here in the link I previously posted..

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I think that's enough for the moment.  Pay particular attention to the EVRD dogs training, his reaction to the crime scene and the two alerts in apartment 5a living area where both Eddie and Keela alerted.  Do you think Eddie was alerting to blood residue or cadavarine - or more to the point is it debatable?

As I think I've said before, this area is better left to those with knowledge of forensic science - otherwise the subject is grossly misunderstood/misinterpreted.  One thing relative to the subject however is open to discussion .... why was Leicestershire Constabulary, John Lowe and the UK's prestigious Forensic Science Service involved with a Portuguese investigation?  Why did every sample submitted to the FSS for analysis produce a negative result?

Analysis that proved fruitless.  Out of all the samples - not one???