Whose car was available?

Madeleine having died as a result of an accident on 29^th April 2007 on the premises of the Ocean Club, is strongly supported by numerous pillars of circumstantial evidence. What seems to have followed, was the immediate decision to conceal her death. The first priority would have been to hide the small body in a safe place, away from the holiday apartments. This is where frantic calls to the UK would have been made to seek urgent assistance from a well-connected and reliable outside party.
 
At that stage, none of the ‘Tapas 9’ had rented a ‘holiday’ car. The person whose help was drastically sought in the UK, would have known who best to contact in Praia da Luz. The ‘helper’ needed to be a trusted resident who had a motor vehicle and knew the lay of the land. Probably within two hours of the first call made, the helper arrived to render assistance. Madeleine’s concealed body would have been carried to the waiting vehicle.
 
The person in the UK, familiar with the goings-on in the Algarve, would have known which private residence was available and most suitable for the task in hand. Only After Madeleine’s body was secretly hidden in the “safe house”, would those involved have been able to focus clearly on the next step/s to be taken.
 
Gerry and Kate’s visit to Sagres the next day (30^th April 2007) remains clouded in secrecy, despite having received coverage in UK newspapers shortly thereafter. The obvious question that comes to mind is, whose vehicle did Gerry and Kate use that Monday morning? Strangely, in her book MADELEINE, Kate makes no mention of the Sagres day-trip.
 
Gerry and Kate’s later interpreter Robert, arrived in Praia da Luz the next day – Tuesday 1^st May 2007. Despite having a vehicle of his own in the holiday town, Robert rented a vehicle because his “was not available” that day. It is uncertain or never surfaced as to exactly where his vehicle was at the time, or who was making use thereof.
 
Two weeks later, on 15^th May 2007, the Portuguese police declared Robert a suspect in Madeleine’s ‘disappearance’. The following day, his friend Sergey who lived in Praia da Luz, was interrogated by the police. For some unknown reason, weeks later his vehicle escaped the ‘Eddie and Keela sniffer dogs’ police line-up held in August 2007. Strangely, Sergey’s Audi A4 only months later was torched outside his home and partially destroyed.
 
One sure way to ‘lose’ cadaver scent, is to sell or permanently get rid of the contaminated item. Most people, believe that fire destroys every trace of cadaver. On the very day killer Trevor Hamilton murdered Attracta Harron (in 2003), he torched his Hyundai Lantra hoping to destroy any incriminating evidence. The same forensic sniffer dog Eddie, proved differently when he detected evidence on a mat in Hamilton’s burnt-out vehicle.
 
Can anyone please provide any further details pertaining to the vehicles mentioned? Where for instance, was Robert’s car when he arrived from the UK? As a matter of interest, did Robert keep his vehicle for years thereafter, or did he sell it shortly after arriving back in Praia da Luz. Any clarity in relation to the afore-mentioned would be appreciated.
 
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

I haven't read the bewk, but to omit the Sagres day tip does seem strange. Especially compared to trivia such as the number of ice creams they bought, and a 'tea stain' on pyjamas being mentioned.

Gerry and Kate’s visit to Sagres the next day (30th April 2007) remains clouded in secrecy, despite having received coverage in UK newspapers shortly thereafter. The obvious question that comes to mind is, whose vehicle did Gerry and Kate use that Monday morning? Strangely, in her book MADELEINE, Kate makes no mention of the Sagres day-trip.

I believe the trip to Sagres on 30th April 2007 to be a myth. If I remember rightly, the subject was researched thoroughly and debunked long ago - here on CMOMM particularly.

I'll see if I can locate something.

Meanwhile, a slight digression but I feel every angle should be approached methodically. This might be worthy of consideration..

GNR Report

Subject: Report of Searches Related to the Disappearance of Madeleine McCann

Annex B. Report on the Sniffer Dog Search and Rescue Team

1. Methods used

The sniffer dog search and rescue team of the GNR was sent to Vila da Luz in the attempt of locating Madeleine McCann, aged four, of British nationality, who disappeared on the night of 3rd May, from apartment 5 A, Block 5 of the OC resort, the team was composed as follows:

Sargeant Silva - Dog: Timmy
Officer Cortez - Dog: Sacha
Officer Sousa - Dog: Kolly/Cookie
Officer Rosa - Dog: Oscar
Officer Martins - Dog: Fusco
Officer Fernandes - Dog: Rex/ Zarus

II Description

After arriving at the scene, the first three members of the team, the officers gathered some information from the girl's parents about the places they tended to frequent with the children during their stay in P da L up until now, the parents replied that the only areas that their daughter would frequent since their arrival, was Praia da Luz beach, always accompanied by babysitters and resort pool area, where there was also a playground.

After this, at about 08.00 the three search and rescue sniffer dog teams (Silva with Timmy, Cortez with Sacha and Sousa with Kolly and Cookie) who had arrived at the site, began searching, leaving the resort in the direction of the beach.

During the entire morning, searches were made of the beach and rocks, from Rocha Negra to the area of Ponta da Gaviota (an approximate area of 2 km). During the morning searches were also made of the areas surrounding Praia da Luz, with a radius of about 300 metres, as well as some abandoned houses, wells and plots of land inside P da L.

After an evaluation of the situation in the field, it was decided to request two more search and rescue sniffer dogs from the GNR Queluz station, given the extent of the terrain to be searched, whilst the hypothesis that the girl could have left the apartment on foot was not discarded.

During the afternoon of 4th May, more searches were carried out around Vila da Luz and were extended to a radius of approximately 600 metres, including the surroundings of the EN125 in the stretch closed to P da L.

At about 23.00 the extra teams that had been requested for reinforcement arrived (Officer Rosa with Oscar and Officer Martins with Fusco, both from the search and rescue unit and Officer Fernandes with Rex and Zarus from the tracking team).

After the officers had been updated about facts relating to the disappearance, they tried to reconstruct the route the girl might have taken with the two tracker dogs. For this purpose the dogs were given a blanket to sniff, provided by the parents, which had been used by Madeleine.

Beginning to follow the track using Rex, from the door of apartment 5 A (the place where the girl had been sleeping) he would always head in the direction of Block 4, leaving block 5 the dog would turn to the left, pass by a metal access door to a path existing between the apartments blocks to the leisure area (restaurant, pool and playground). Immediately another attempt at reconstruction was made using the dog Zarus, who, in general terms, ended up following the same route as Rex and having the same behaviour.

It is important to state that this tracking work was carried out in an urban area and more than 24 hours after the girl's disappearance and numerous persons had passed along the path the dogs were tracking. It should also be stated that the path the dogs followed within the resort was practically totally surrounded by walls and the concentration of odours was stronger as they were protected from the wind. The searches finished at about 01.30

On 5th May at about 08.00 after a briefing, two teams consisting of 3 dogs each accompanied by officers from Portimao, again carried out searches in the whole of the Vila da Luz area, with an approximate radius of 2 kilometres, paying special attention to the rocky areas, abandoned houses, wells, drains, road verges etc..including plots of land within P da L.

During part of the afternoon, searches were carried out in the Turiscampo camping site situated next to Espiche on the EN125 and in the Orbitur camping site next to Vila da Luz. This search operation had the objective of checking all the bungalows whose occupants had left on the day of the disappearance or on the following day as well as the adjacent areas.

During the day the searches were extended using the method of searching in file, accompanied by officers from Portimao, from the P da L area following the rocks up to Ponta da Cama da Vaca, taking in all of the northern zone to the EN125 as well as the village of Almadena, the Vale Verde zone and Quatro Estradas, some of the areas had already been searched more than once.

At about 22.00 all the vehicles parked in Vila da Luz parking spaced were checked.

On 6th May at about 08.00 and after another briefing from the Operational Command Post, it was decided that on that day they would again search all the plots of land with thick undergrowth within P da L, but that this time the search sections were divided amongst the teams. For this purpose the same teams of three dogs together with officers from Portimao who had been selected to help using the method of searching in file, carried out searches in all abandoned buildings, wells, rocks, verges of the EN125 and land surrounding P da L, in some cases reaching distances of 2 km.

On 7th May the same searches were continued, being extended to to the entire northern part of Almadena to the site of Espojeiro and the verges of the EN125 until the Boi valley.

At about 19.. the undersigned officer, accompanied by the Commander, Officer Silva, took part in a meetings with the PJ Directorate, being asked by the PJ about the viability of giving the girl's clothes to the dogs for the dogs to sniff again, and if by means of the odour inhaled, they would be able to mark an identical odour in one of the resort apartments even though its door was closed.

With regard to this task, Officer Silva referred to the fact that the time that had passed would be a crucial condition for the dogs' work in obtaining results and that the entirety of the human odours existing in the apartments and access paths could make the dogs' searches very difficult. However, in spite of not being a normal situation for tracking, it could be attempted, whilst the operation should be carried out as quickly as possible and not directed towards one but to all the apartments in the resort, it being appropriate for the handler not to know which apartment was chosen, so as not the be conditioned.

In this concrete situation, the objective would be for the dogs to carry out a discontinuous search, in other words, to sniff the girl's clothes and immediately search near to the apartments, checking to see if there was any change in the behaviour of the dogs.

At about 23.00 accompanied by a PJ inspector, the searches were begun. After Rex was given the girl's clothing to sniff, he began to search on the ground floor of block 5 and when he passed the door of apartment 5 A (the place the girl had disappeared from) according to his handler, officer Fernandes, the dog altered its behaviour, sniffing with greater intensity than he had done before. Apartment 5J of the same block was also checked as the dog had been more agitated than before as if there were a very strong strange odour there. It was stated that this apartment had been unoccupied for some time. Afterwards, the same kind of search was carried out using the dog Zarus which in general terms showed the same behaviour in the same places as Rex had done.

It was only when all the searches of the apartments in blocks 4 and 5 were complete, that the behaviour described above was registered. It is certain that this kind of work does not correspond to the area that these dogs were trained in, but given that these types of dogs manage to discriminate a specific odour from others, although it could be a remote possibility that they related the odour of the missing girl with a possible location where she could have been.

On 8th May during the morning four teams returned to search all the areas around Vila, following some indications from local people who had frequently gone to the GNR Command post saying they had seen something suspicious related to the disappearance but no sign of her presence was ever found.

During the afternoon searches along the verges of the EN125 were continued from Boi valley to Figueira and the whole northern part of Budens.

On the following days the strategy adopted was to continue to extend the perimeter of the searches to the villages of Barao de S Miguel and Burgau, Barao de S Joao, Bensafrim and Salema. Searches were carried out in all of these locations, as well as adjacent land, vegetation, abandoned houses, wells and main roads.

On 10th May at about 20.10, upon the request of the PJ, searches were carried out in all of the apartments belonging to blocks 4 and 5 of the OC, two tracker dogs and two search and rescue dogs being used for this operation, adopting the same methods as those used on 7th May, just that this time the apartments were all open and searched one by one, being accompanied by a representative from the resort, who had the keys to all the apartments (apart from those not under her administration) and also with the objective of helping with the searches. The collaboration of all the guests occupying the apartments at that time was requested for this purpose and those apartments that were found to be empty were opened by the administrator.

All the apartments were searched by the dogs and when they arrived at apartment 5 J they began to sniff with intensity at the entrance door. During this behaviour it was noted by the PJ officers that there must be some unusual odour, but which with all certainty did not have anything to do with the odour being searched for, but there must have been something strange inside.

After entering the apartment, it was observed that the dour came from close to the fridge, which was open and contained some rotting meat and vegetables.

During the searches carried out in the apartments no sign of the girl was found by the dogs.

On 11th May in the morning, the team went to Odiaxere to visit a forest near the Boavista golf course. The whole forest was searched using the in file method, including some abandoned houses, wells and rail track.

After lunch the team was told that the searches were concluded but that their presence in P da L would continue to be necessary according to the requirements of the PJ for any other situations that might occur.

On 15th May three search and rescue dogs returned to Lisbon (Officer Cortes with Sacha, Officer Rosa with Oscar and Officer Martins with Fusco) considering that there was no longer any need for them.


The other dogs and their handlers remained on site until 18th May when at about 19.00 they returned to Cino/EPG as their presence was no longer require in P da L, although it was determined that if their use were required in the future, they would return.

Signed
30 November 2007
Operation Commander
Major Sequeira

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

CaKeLoveR wrote:I haven't read the bewk, but to omit the Sagres day tip does seem strange

I've sent you a PM Mrs Cake.

Verdi wrote:I believe the trip to Sagres on 30th April 2007 to be a myth. If I remember rightly, the subject was researched thoroughly and debunked long ago - here on CMOMM particularly.

I'll see if I can locate something.

Et voila..

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I think this maybe of potential interest as regards Robert Murat's car rental..

- Soon after the observed person goes to the pastelaria "Dom Doce" where he bought food that he took to the lady, his mother, very soon after, peeping into a vehicle that was also parked there, a Peugeot 206, licence RI-96-03.

- At 13h11 the target gets into his vehicle and leaves in the direction of Lagos. About 13h22 he parks the vehicle in Rua Adelina ... Lagos and goes inside number 8.
At 15h09 the observed person leaves in the car and proceeds to Rua Joao Moniz Nogueira, Lagos, parks the vehicle and enters lot B.
Some minutes later, 15h35, the target gets back into the vehicle and proceeds in the direction of the town of Luz.

- At 15h54 the observed person parks the vehicle near to "Casa Liliana" a little further along from where it was during the night, going then inside the Villa.

- At 16h41 he gets back into the vehicle and drives off to the centre of town, stopping next to the above-mentioned "Dom Doce".
Six minutes later, 16h47, he goes to an ATM of Caixa Credito Agricola situated at no. 2-4, Travessa 1 de Maio. He begins a conversation with someone, both speaking in English.

- At 17h01 the observed person and the above-mentioned lady load the bench and other equipment into the VW.
At 17h06 the target walks to Rua 1 de Maio, going down, coming to meet an individual about 180cm tall, thin, wearing glasses and an orange T-shirt.
At 17h09 he enters the premises of the car rental agency "Auto Vermietung - auto rent III" in the Largo da Igreja [church square], Luz.
About 17h16 the observed person leaves the rent-a-car and gets into a vehicle, Hyundai Getz, blue, licence 60-AX-86, going to Rua 1 de Maio where he stops next to the pastelaria "Dom Doce", entering this place accompanied by the bench lady.

At 17h48 the observed person goes in the Hyundai and stops in Rua Direita where he goes to "Batista" supermarket.

At 17h58 he leaves "Batista" proceeding to the EN125 and later to the A22, Portimao direction [direction: from West to East].

At 18h26 he parks the vehicle in the car park next to the Portimonense stadium in Portimao and, now on foot, at 18h31 enters the premises of the police.

At 20h52 he leaves the police station, goes to the vehicle and proceeds to Lagos.

At 21h16 he stops next to number 8 Rua Adelina ... Lagos and collects a woman who was waiting there for him. Then he proceeds in the direction of Praia da Luz and Burgau.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Bird131 wrote:Can anyone please provide any further details pertaining to the vehicles mentioned? Where for instance, was Robert’s car when he arrived from the UK? As a matter of interest, did Robert keep his vehicle for years thereafter, or did he sell it shortly after arriving back in Praia da Luz. Any clarity in relation to the afore-mentioned would be appreciated.

I think perhaps forum member and blogger ShinningInLuz might be able to offer some assistance here.

There is no evidence the McCann's went to Sagres on 30th April.

Nuno Laurenco made a statement on 5th April about a man taking photos of children in Sagres.

I think this was then "leaked" to the press, the reporters then go to Sagres to investigate and a shopkeeper tells them she saw the McCann's and Madeleine, Gerry was pushing a buggy.

On 11th May, the Mail wrote in their newspaper that the McCanns were in Sagres, on 12th May the Telegraph reported the same.

Pretty conclusive that they didn't go there; did they deny that they had been to Sagres?  It may have served their purpose, whatever that may have been, to say nothing. Gerry likes people not knowing what is, or isn't, true.

Not sure they were asked if they had been to Sagres, I don't  remember reading it anywhere in their statements.

I don't know what the significance of Sagres is to Madeleine missing.

It seems that Roberts mother may have used his car to collect him from Faro airport on May 1st

Bird131 wrote:Two weeks later, on 15th May 2007, the Portuguese police declared Robert a suspect in Madeleine’s ‘disappearance’. The following day, his friend Sergey who lived in Praia da Luz, was interrogated by the police. For some unknown reason, weeks later his vehicle escaped the ‘Eddie and Keela sniffer dogs’ police line-up held in August 2007. Strangely, Sergey’s Audi A4 only months later was torched outside his home and partially destroyed.

One sure way to ‘lose’ cadaver scent, is to sell or permanently get rid of the contaminated item. Most people, believe that fire destroys every trace of cadaver. On the very day killer Trevor Hamilton murdered Attracta Harron (in 2003), he torched his Hyundai Lantra hoping to destroy any incriminating evidence. The same forensic sniffer dog Eddie, proved differently when he detected evidence on a mat in Hamilton’s burnt-out vehicle.

Maddie Case: Car of Malinka's family member searched by two sniffer dogs

Original Source: Joana Morais 03 July 2014
3 JULY 2014 | POSTED BY JOANA MORAIS

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

by Marisa Rodrigues
The car of a relative of Sergey Malinka, one of the arguidos in the English police investigation, was inspected yesterday by sniffer dogs. The inspection took place at the Judiciary Police premises in Portimão, and it was done to verify if the car had been used to carry the body of Madeleine McCann. JN knows that nothing relevant was found. The owner is one of the 11 witnesses indicated by Scotland Yard and has already given statements at the Judiciary Police headquarters in Faro, yesterday.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

The Audi that Sergey, of Russian descent and now naturalized as Portuguese, drove in 2007 was set on fire, at a time when he was being investigated. At the site of the arson the word “Fala” [Speak] was written. This is one of the arguments used by Scotland Yard to constitute him as an arguido.

The proceedings were practically concluded at the end of day, with some elements of the British delegation returning ahead of schedule to the UK.

On Tuesday four men were constituted as arguidos. JN found out that one of the man that has agreed to answer to the more than 200 questions was José Carlos da Silva, the former Ocean Club driver, who was recently diagnosed with a brain tumour. He didn't follow his doctor and his lawyer advice and decided to speak up to refute the accusations.

He is a suspect in the English investigation, along with the other arguidos - a 51 year old man and a young man who was at the time 16 years old, who looked like a “beggar” spotted near the Ocean Club - of having planned to burglarize the apartment where the McCanns were staying. Maddie would have surprised them and be killed for that same reason.

in Jornal de Notícias, paper edition, page 13, July 3, 2014

In the case of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, the questionings to suspects and witnesses did not produce any results. The car of a relative of one of the arguidos was inspected by the sniffer dogs but nothing was found.
Broadcast by TVI, July 3, 2014

Video Transcript

Marisa Rodrigues [Voice Over] - The sniffer dogs were used in an inspection to a car of a close relative of Sergey Malika, one of the arguidos, since the car that he owned at the time of the child's disappearance was set ablaze. No relevant indicia were found to the English investigation. This morning, Scotland Yard returned to the PJ headquarters in Faro for more witness questionings. The proceedings are practically concluded, but so far, and despite the new developments, it is still unknown what happened to Madeleine McCann.

An investigation that has four arguidos, four men all residents in Praia da Luz. The most well-known is Sergey Malinka previously investigated and cleared within the Portuguese process, who is now considered a suspect, mainly because hairs were found in a sofa similar to the ones that were discovered in the apartment from where Madeleine disappeared. Vestiges that were forensically examined at the time, whose results did not enable the identification of whom they belonged to, nor if they belonged to the same person or not.

The other three arguidos are a man that suffers from schizophrenia, a former Ocean Club driver and a young man, who was only 16 years old at the time, the latter similar to a beggar who was allegedly seen in Praia da Luz. And these were the trump cars that Scotland Yard played in the letter rogatory to support the theory that these suspects planned via mobile phones to burglarize the apartment, Madeleine woke up and with the fear that she would recognize them later on, they murdered her and concealed her body.

Marisa Rodrigues [in Faro] - An hypothesis that the Judiciary Police totally dismisses. The Portuguese PJ inspectors have nothing whatsoever to do with these proceedings, they are only fulfilling the requests of the letter rogatory because the Portuguese Public Ministry has ordered them do so. Image by Jorge Belo, Marisa Rodrigues, TVI.

The E.R.V.D. has successfully in training and in operational casework located
Human cadaders, whether in the whole or parts thereof, deposited surface or
sub-surface to a depth of approximately 1 metre shortly after death (though
precise times are not determinable) to the advanced stages of decomposition
and putrefaction through the skeletal. This includes incinerated remains even if
large quantities of accelerant have been involved. The dog has successfully in
training and in operational casework located a human cadavers in water either
from the bank siade or when deployed in a boat.

Martin Grimes

Returning to the locale - Luz, the scene of the crime so to speak, the church played a significant role surrounding Madeleine McCann's disappearance.  The pretext appeared to be Gerry and Kate McCann's faith and devotion, somewhat flaky in itself by all accounts.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Although muddled by media reports, I don't think there can be any doubt that the McCanns were given keys to the church for claimed reasons of privacy.  The original fabric of the church dates back to the 16th century, I've asked many times in the past with no response so far .... 'is there a subterranean crypt?'  Somewhere a body could be temporarily concealed at an ambient temperature?

There have been a lot of rumours spread about the McCanns and the church which have turned the subject into a bit of a circus but in my view there is potential interest here.

If facts and evidence are brought together in favour of myths, rumour and speculation - none of which are particularly helpful.  That is where the case so frequently loses direction, differentiating between fact and fiction - a constant uphill struggle.

I'm not meaning to move away from the threads intended focus, only to connect the dots, so to speak - to follow a trail  The topography, the McCann group's movements and who else was here there and everywhere.

Funnily enough, this ties in with The Madeleine McCann Research Group's recent post..

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

the church is of course interested, but there is very little information, the most information, and mappings of the building are on this not that easy to use site; 

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

most of interest would be the bell tower, and the rooms build at the east wing of the church. not all maps are from the build as it is today and was also in 2007, the western wing is no longer there. 

i never have found pictures of crypts, but the story is there are roman ruins also under this church. but there could be natural ones, because that part of the coast was once formed by lava. 

if we take a look at some pictures from around 2007, there was a lot of works done around the church;

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

there looks to be no longer a outside door to the tower itself.

there is done a bit of archaeological research, but with very little information, and these would not have been accessible from the church itself;

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

The project comprises two distinct areas of intervention, namely the area surrounding the Church of Nossa Senhora da Luz and the implementation area of the Parish Hall, on adjoining land. In this context, the results of the archaeological excavation only revealed structures and archaeological contexts preserved underground in the area around the Church of Luz. On the site of the future Parish Hall, contexts of rubble and embankment from the contemporary period were recorded, with the presence of a single structure which was a rainwater collector. The typological sequence of occupation of the space essentially comprises two distinct chronological eras, one pre-existing to the Church of Luz in Late Roman times and the other contemporary to the Church, in Modern times. The vestiges of Roman occupation are reflected in the presence of a single sepulchre-type structure with an associated burial, structured by the re-use of architectural elements, probably originating from constructions associated with the Roman vicus, existing in the vicinity of the area in question. From the Modern period, contemporary with the Church, we point out the presence of a compartment in drill 2, of which only the foundations and the floor are preserved. This may correspond to the annexes, more precisely the baptistery, which were attached to the north side façade of the Church, visible on the original plan and which were later destroyed. The excavation in the area surrounding the Church of Nossa Senhora da Luz presupposed the existence of an associated cemetery, which was only confirmed in drillings 3 and 7.

Translated with [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] (free version)

this are areas around the church, not under the church itself.

I wonder what the dummy is representing.

i think those people looking at it are still asking themselves what they have been looking at.

I remember having a rummage about on the subject many moons ago. I didn't come up with anything constructive.

Guessing the Portuguese team wouldn't have overlook the possibility but I'm thinking hollowed ground..

Under the law, police can enter a mosque, church or other place of worship if a search warrant has been applied for and they have reasonable grounds to believe an offence has been committed.

I have a look around later and see if I can find past discussion.

Sorry Bird131, I hope this isn't taking your thread off piste.

most rumors about cripts and tunnels are probably from early forum discussions long gone, the story about the expected roman tunnels under praia da luz are in the files;

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

because of the history of the place it could be that there are indeed old rain water cisterns, sewage puts and older cellars under the later build properties, the problem is how do other people not very familiair with this place have knowledge of them. and are there ways of entry. easily to reach with a body. 

the earlier you set the time of death and disposal, you open up a lot of possibilities, even by the mccanns themselves. anyone could have get a flight to sevilla in spain, rent a car and just drive down to praia da luz. single trip will be about 3 hours, and before the evening of thursday there was no deadline. bring out the body and travel back the next day and every family member, or friend could have done that.

onehand wrote:most rumors about cripts and tunnels are probably from early forum discussions long gone, the story about the expected roman tunnels under praia da luz are in the files;

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

because of the history of the place it could be that there are indeed old rain water cisterns, sewage puts and older cellars under the later build properties, the problem is how do other people not very familiair with this place have knowledge of them. and are there ways of entry. easily to reach with a body. 

the earlier you set the time of death and disposal, you open up a lot of possibilities, even by the mccanns themselves. anyone could have get a flight to sevilla in spain, rent a car and just drive down to praia da luz. single trip will be about 3 hours, and before the evening of thursday there was no deadline. bring out the body and travel back the next day and every family member, or friend could have done that.

I don't know whether these tunnels are relevant at all but if they were, we should remember that Rob Murat is not only a property developer who knows the area well, his father was also one of the top men behind the development of the area.

Verdi wrote:I remember having a rummage about on the subject many moons ago.  I didn't come up with anything constructive.

Guessing the Portuguese team wouldn't have overlook the possibility but I'm thinking hollowed ground..

Under the law, police can enter a mosque, church or other place of worship if a search warrant has been applied for and they have reasonable grounds to believe an offence has been committed.

I have a look around later and see if I can find past discussion.

Soprry Bird131, I hope this isn't taking your thread off piste.

Hollowed ground...or hallowed ground?

Or both?

Now that the church has been mentioned, let's just add this great curiosity: the arrival of Father Haynes Hubbard in Praia da Luz on Sunday 6 May 2007, having set off from Canada the day before, Saturday 5 May. Hardly one day after Madeleine was reported abducted on 3 May 2007 at 10pm.

What was that rush over to Praia da Luz all about?

With thanks once again to pamalam:


FATHER HAYNES HUBBARD AND SUSAN HUBBARD

Anglican priest at church of Nossa Senhora da Luz (Our Lady of the Light) in Praia da Luz and his wife, Susan, have become close friends and confidants of McCanns. Members of St. Vincent's Anglican Church welcomed the Rev. Haynes Hubbard on May 6th when he arrived at Faro Airport after a 20 hour journey from his native Canada with his family and pet cat. Rev Haynes Hubbard was born in Norfolk and his wife Susan speaks Portuguese and Spanish.

The comments on this video are very interesting!

Madeleine McCann Research Group wrote:Hollowed ground...or hallowed ground?

Or both?

Verdi wrote:
Sorry Bird131, I hope this isn't taking your thread off piste.

Madeleine McCann Research wrote:
Soprry Bird131, I hope this isn't taking your thread off piste.

Typo .... or misquote.

Or both?

post 21 sharonl,

they never have been found to date, or are recorded anywhere. what there is is very little in portuguese, google does not even pick it up when using english search terms. but the portuguese do. 

the murat family has not lived always in pdl, jenny bought that property after het husband passed away, and robert murat has lived on a lot of places in portugal and england during his upbringing. at least one person who had worked for the company of john murat says, this man was not known for letting join children into work meetings. 

there is no clear picture that can tell if robert murat even was able to get access to a place of work in pdl by his fathers company. 

the ocean club and other 'clubs'of holiday lets are build from a time archaeology was usually seen as a time and money wasting experience, usually ending in the habit of putting some rubble over it and start building. 
but if there are tunnels of a kind, other then for rainwater and sewage down there, you still have to get access to less known tunnels and such access is only there when a profit is in such a tunnel. but they are not just in a street or very public place easy accessible. 

but it becomes a bit wild to get into finding a lead that a robert murat must have knowledge of the not known tunnels, was able to tell the mccanns about them, and the mcanns used them to hide a body. 

a possible existence of tunnels was made known to this investigation, and by looking at the original documents in the files, it has gotten some attention, the blacked out map of the sewage system tells that is was looked into, that was never part of the information. 

the area itself with its very long history of people living there, and the natural shape would make tunnels, caverns, cisterns and old cellars could be there. 
but murat did not grew up in the streets of pdl, could only have learned from those by his fathers work around there. he also had to still have access by himself, or to get access available of the mccanns. and without the risk of somebody else who could start talking. or other members of the public in pdl who could tell about the same possible hiding places around. 

there is never been a solid link been found between murat and the mccanns or others near them. if there is no link at all , it means that would not be to prove at all, because you simply cannot prove a negative. 
for me all i have looked at is very flimsey and even hardly to call circumstantial evidence of a link between those. 
putting murat in this story does not solve this case. and usually it means that somebody is not part of the case at all. 

i would never be able to prove if a family member or friend of the mccanns did flew out to sevilla, rented a car, because the evidence of such would no longer exists. 

the same with the ira bond to the mccann family, i did look into that as well, based on the first and second names there could be the mccanns had family ties into one of the ira groupings. and they do end up into the algarve at that time. but the material is not out there to link them for certain, and from that to this case. 

it has nothing to do with laying the puzzle pieces, because it are the pieces itself that are missing. looking at the picture on the box of a puzzle is quite delicate in a crime case. it is usually just the other way round, you get a box full of pieces, but not a picture of what is made of them, but there could be endless pieces in the box, that are not from this puzzle. how much energy will you give into still trying to fit them in. 
and who knows in the end you can see sometimes it is indeed a part of the puzzle. 

to lie in a statement to the police is just stupid, still most people do it, most will choose to lie in omission, but people are easy to explain that to themselves, have their own reasons. for me it is more telling in what happens when they realize you know they are not truthful as they could be. 

so a father who tells a fantasy in how he walked and handled during his check, at the start of the investigation and search for his daughter, and keeps that up for days, even after he heard his wife tell a very different way, then a local who is used to lie about everything , all times out. and how do we really know his second play was truthful? had he means of access to the witnesses who corroborated his next version? yes he had. 
the only known things murat has done when is what is gathered from his phones and computers, and other written forms of evidence like the form for hiring that car. and because he was already followed at that time. 

i can see murat as the usual local fixer, but assisting in hiding a body is to high above his pay grade. and if you leave all about him out of this case, the case itself does not change at all. 

and for a tunnel, look back into mark harrisons statement, a hole of 50 cm would be good enough to hide a child of the description of madeleine mccann. 

if you look back to only the thursday evening, the mccanns would have a vacuum time to just after 22.00 hours, they had no good reason to call to others, and that phone calls would be gathered is pretty well known, but after 22.00 hours that becomes different, to tell what happened is a nice explanation, but it could have been asking for assistance, because no one would ever know what you did tell or ask from the other number. but both numbers would have to show up in the phone listings. 

so for the thursday evening, if something indeed happened after say 18.00 hours , it only means the mccanns and maybe a friend would be responsible for the hiding of the body till 04.00 hours. the next slot for help in person from outside would open up between 04.00 hours and 07.00 hours on the 4th of may.

From PJ files about Roman Tunnels'
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]


Not trying to imply he had anything to do with Madeleines disappearance, but just to be thorough, Raj Balu had a car.