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Forensics Revisited

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Re: Forensics Revisited

Post by Hobs on 24.10.17 0:06

The UK police can investigate the fund.
Since the fund was created on the lie that Maddie was alive and that she had been abducted by a paedophile stranger and then the dogs indicated that a body had lain in the apartment long enough for cadaverine to be detected by dogs, cadaverine that was also found on certain items of clothing including a child's red t shirt which is unexplained since when would a child come into contact with a corpse in the normal run of life and would surely have been something the mccanns would have remembered, ie they went to an open casket funeral and that is why cadaverine is on the t shirt type of excuse.
Plus that body fluids were found in the apartment and in the hire car, with a 15/19 markers match with the remaining 4 too degraded to identify at the time though with advances in forensic science, in the past 10 years that may well have changed.

Since the mccanns and chums plus clarrie have told us Maddie is dead on multiple occasions, it means the fund was set up fraudulently and is thus open to criminal charges.

It also means that all the fund raising for the search which the mccanns have never physically done, nor most of their investigators  via their online shop as well as donation buttons for PayPal is also based on a lie and thus fraudulent.

It means they could possibly face investigation by the police from every country where they asked for donations either directly via the media such as interviews etc or via their website with donations in various currencies.
Wire fraud, obtaining money and services by deception.

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Re: Forensics Revisited

Post by Verdi on 24.10.17 1:58

Yes the UK police could and perhaps should investigate the fund but I doubt they will find anything incriminating that could lead to a prosecution.  The McCann defence league have always been well and truly cosseted by prime high profile legal pundits and a variety of affiliated useful outlets that can fill the holes faster than the McCanns can themselves dig.  The 'fund' might be only borderline legal but we all know what that means in terms of pounds shillings and pence.

Technically, as regards the 'search', I don't recall it was ever said that the 'fund' was specifically searching for a living Madeleine to bring back safely to her home.  A dead person could likewise be searched for and the body or remains returned to the family for a respectful burial and closure.

What's more, the dog alerts did not clarify that a corpse had lain in apartment 5a long enough for cadavarine to develop, the scent could have been by transference - the most likely scenario in my opinion considering the items of clothing etc. that were signaled by the dogs.  I believe that was the opinion of the dogs trainer/handler, Martin Grimes, at the time.  It's late now but tomorrow I will check it out.

Personally I'm in no doubt that the fund is fraudulant but proving it through the legal process is another matter altogether.  I don't credit the McCanns with a great deal of intelligence (cunning most definitely) but their ring of fire I believe to be impenetrable.  Why else would they still be free to roam the planet ten years after the event?

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Re: Forensics Revisited

Post by aquila on 24.10.17 9:13

@Verdi wrote:Yes the UK police could and perhaps should investigate the fund but I doubt they will find anything incriminating that could lead to a prosecution.  The McCann defence league have always been well and truly cosseted by prime high profile legal pundits and a variety of affiliated useful outlets that can fill the holes faster than the McCanns can themselves dig.  The 'fund' might be only borderline legal but we all know what that means in terms of pounds shillings and pence.

Technically, as regards the 'search', I don't recall it was ever said that the 'fund' was specifically searching for a living Madeleine to bring back safely to her home.  A dead person could likewise be searched for and the body or remains returned to the family for a respectful burial and closure.

What's more, the dog alerts did not clarify that a corpse had lain in apartment 5a long enough for cadavarine to develop, the scent could have been by transference - the most likely scenario in my opinion considering the items of clothing etc. that were signaled by the dogs.  I believe that was the opinion of the dogs trainer/handler, Martin Grimes, at the time.  It's late now but tomorrow I will check it out.

Personally I'm in no doubt that the fund is fraudulant but proving it through the legal process is another matter altogether.  I don't credit the McCanns with a great deal of intelligence (cunning most definitely) but their ring of fire I believe to be impenetrable.  Why else would they still be free to roam the planet ten years after the event?
I'm not the brightest lightbulb on a Christmas tree Verdi, I don't pretend to be but you're going to have to explain (to me at any rate) your interpretation of the cadaver and blood dog findings.
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Re: Forensics Revisited

Post by Doug D on 24.10.17 9:41

'Transference' does not hold good for blood/body fluids under the tiles.

As for 'safe', as in ‘To secure the safe return to her family….’ from the 'objects' clause in the accounts, even CM would be laughed at if he tried to spin it that the fund was set up, in the full knowledge that MM was dead, to secure the 'safe' return of a dead body.

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Re: Forensics Revisited

Post by MayMuse on 24.10.17 10:58

Eddie and Keela are not "clock watchers" they are there to do the job they are trained to do. They succeeded in alerting to cavadine odour and human blood  in apartment 5a in very specific locations. 

A "body" must have been in apartment 5a long enough for cavadine odour to be present in order  for it to be detected. If the "body" was moved to a different location and lay for a while that would leave the "scent" which is alerted to. 

Blood under the tiles  suggest that a "body" lay bleeding for enough time for the fluid to seep onto and leak under the flooring.


No one had previously "died" or been found dead in apartment 5a. 

Madeleine is the only child missing from the family who holidayed in that apartment. 

It has to be said that if the "abduction" scenario is the only remit the MET are adhering to, if they have asked themselves the question of said "abductor" why he or she removed a corpse from the apartment, least move it in different locations ..never have I heard of a burglar turned abductor to then hold a vigil with a corpse prior to absconding?  

As for the "fund" 

Money for Madeleine...really? 

Money from Madeleine more like....


Inheritance takes on a new meaning?

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Re: Forensics Revisited

Post by Verdi on 24.10.17 12:48

@aquila wrote:
I'm not the brightest lightbulb on a Christmas tree Verdi, I don't pretend to be but you're going to have to explain (to me at any rate) your interpretation of the cadaver and blood dog findings.
It's not my interpretation nor opinion aquila, it's what's on public record by way of the PJ forensic reports.  As you know, the forensic reports are long, complex, technical in parts and somewhat repetitive - it will take time to locate the relevant bits.

Firstly, it's very important to recognize the two distinct areas here - 1. the forensic investigation and subsequent analysis of apartment 5a undertaken by the PJ team and 2. the forensic examination undertaken by Eddie the EVRD and Keela the CSI dogs, under the guidance of their handler/trainer Martin Grime.  The two areas are often fused into one which only adds confusion and  a general misunderstanding of the subject matter.

It is also important to acknowledge the fact that the dogs can only alert to the scent of cadavarine and/blood - without a body they cannot tell the identity of the person, this must be corroborated by forensic analysis.  A widely known fact but nonetheless worthy of repetition as it's sometimes conveniently overlooked.

Contrary to popular belief, I don't have hours of spare time to dedicate to CMoMM, so in case I don't have the opportunity to delve futher into the subject, here's something to set the ball rolling..

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

If read carefully, for the most part it's written in simple non-technical terms.  Remember though, the afrementioned two areas under discussion - the PJ forensic examination and that of Martin Grimes with Eddie and Keela.

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Re: Forensics Revisited

Post by MayMuse on 24.10.17 12:54

Gerry McCann said " Ask the dogs"

They were

And I believe them!


Dogs don't and do not have the ability to lie!

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Re: Forensics Revisited

Post by Verdi on 24.10.17 12:55

@MayMuse wrote:Eddie and Keela are not "clock watchers" they are there to do the job they are trained to do. They succeeded in alerting to cavadine odour and human blood  in apartment 5a in very specific locations. 

A "body" must have been in apartment 5a long enough for cavadine odour to be present in order  for it to be detected. If the "body" was moved to a different location and lay for a while that would leave the "scent" which is alerted to. 

Blood under the tiles  suggest that a "body" lay bleeding for enough time for the fluid to seep onto and leak under the flooring.


No one had previously "died" or been found dead in apartment 5a. 

Madeleine is the only child missing from the family who holidayed in that apartment. 

It has to be said that if the "abduction" scenario is the only remit the MET are adhering to, if they have asked themselves the question of said "abductor" why he or she removed a corpse from the apartment, least move it in different locations ..never have I heard of a burglar turned abductor to then hold a vigil with a corpse prior to absconding?  

As for the "fund" 

Money for Madeleine...really? 

Money from Madeleine more like....


Inheritance takes on a new meaning?
I do wish folk would just read what's written and stop blowing everything out of proportion.

The forensics - read the files!

The Fund - it's highly unlikely, if investigated, the UK police will find anything that could lead to a prosecution.  Full stop!

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Re: Forensics Revisited

Post by MayMuse on 24.10.17 13:01

@Verdi wrote:
@MayMuse wrote:Eddie and Keela are not "clock watchers" they are there to do the job they are trained to do. They succeeded in alerting to cavadine odour and human blood  in apartment 5a in very specific locations. 

A "body" must have been in apartment 5a long enough for cavadine odour to be present in order  for it to be detected. If the "body" was moved to a different location and lay for a while that would leave the "scent" which is alerted to. 

Blood under the tiles  suggest that a "body" lay bleeding for enough time for the fluid to seep onto and leak under the flooring.


No one had previously "died" or been found dead in apartment 5a. 

Madeleine is the only child missing from the family who holidayed in that apartment. 

It has to be said that if the "abduction" scenario is the only remit the MET are adhering to, if they have asked themselves the question of said "abductor" why he or she removed a corpse from the apartment, least move it in different locations ..never have I heard of a burglar turned abductor to then hold a vigil with a corpse prior to absconding?  

As for the "fund" 

Money for Madeleine...really? 

Money from Madeleine more like....


Inheritance takes on a new meaning?
I do wish folk would just read what's written and stop blowing everything out of proportion.

The forensics - read the files!

The Fund - it's highly unlikely, if investigated, the UK police will find anything that could lead to a prosecution.  Full stop!
...Who is blowing what out of proportion @verdi

Please do enlighten?

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Re: Forensics Revisited

Post by MayMuse on 24.10.17 14:43

Considering I have read the reports, and have never blown anything out of proportion! 
Let's get this in perspective... 

The "scent" Eddie is trained to detect was alerted to in apartment 5a has come from "transference" as per your earlier post? 
 Verdi wrote... snipped..What's more, the dog alerts did not clarify that a corpse had lain in apartment 5a long enough for cadavarine to develop, the scent could have been by transference - the most likely scenario in my opinion considering the items of clothing etc. that were signaled by the dogs.  I believe that was the opinion of the dogs trainer/handler, Martin Grimes, at the time.  It's late now but tomorrow I will check it out.


As per Martin Grimes: 
"I have trained and handle two operational specialist search dogs: 
'Eddie' is a 7-year-old English Springer spaniel dog who is trained as an 
Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (EVRD)" 



'Keela' is a three-year old English Springer spaniel bitch who is trained as an 
Human blood search dog (C.S.I. dog)"

Martin Grimes states..."His behaviour was such that I believed him to be 'in scent' 
and I therefore allowed him to free search without direction to allow him to 
identify the source of his interest. He did so alerting in the rear bedroom. 

I released him from this and tasked him to continue to search. He did so 
alerting in an area to the rear of the sofa in the lounge"


snipped... The first alert was given with the dogs head in the air without a positive area 
being identified. This is the alert given by him when there is no tangible 
evidence to be located only the remaining scent. 

The second alert was one where a definitive area was evident. The CSI dog 
was therefore deployed who gave specific alert indications to specific areas 
on the tiled floor area behind the sofa and on the curtain in the area that was 
in contact with the floor behind the sofa. This would indicate to the likely 
presence of human blood.



So Eddie is trained to detect "cadaverine"... he was "in scent", he was on his mission to seek where this "scent" was coming from. Albeit no body was recovered and even without the presence of a body for him to find, Eddie was "IN SCENT" which I take to mean that Eddie detected the "odour" of a "corpse" ( cadaverine) and this "odour" was pervading the apartment and whilst there was no body to be found in any specific point, Eddie alerted to various locations the "scent" Eddie was trained to detect! These areas were detected possibly because that is where the "scent" was strongest or had accumulated, his nose led him to where he could detect the smell. 


When you first spray perfume it is on the person, the clothing, and it is left lingering in the air ... much the same as cadaverine leaves a lingering "odour", it comes from an original source! Unless someone was with you at the time you sprayed the perfume, no one could say when it was sprayed, or where you put the bottle it came from, they just smell the fragrance which pervades around you. Same as Eddie was "scenting" cadaverine which shows intelligence that at some point a "body" was in the apartment, doesn't it? 


 IF the suggestion is that this  "lingering scent of cadaverine" is simply from transference in all those "located" areas, then are we now to believe that this has perhaps come from the 5 or 6 corpses Kate McCann "visited" prior to the holiday in her explanation as to why Eddie detected what he did? If so then this "transference" should be in most of the other places KM happened to "visit" on holiday, shouldn't it?   And my goodness, working clothes remaining unwashed prior to going on holiday? Ergh! 

If not where has this "scent transference" originated? 
It must be from its original source, and that would be a "corpse" wouldn't it? 

This "transference" resulted in being detected by Eddie in numerous locations ( and on clothing etc ) one of these areas was behind the blue sofa in the lounge of apartment 5a, along with residue of human blood found beneath the tiles in the exact same area as detected by Keela the dog trained to detect human blood.



No body no crime eh? 

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Re: Forensics Revisited

Post by Verdi on 24.10.17 21:41

@MayMuse wrote:Considering I have read the reports, and have never blown anything out of proportion! 
Let's get this in perspective...
Yes, let's. 

You can't just pluck out random passages from the forensic reports to prove a point - that's not how it works.  The whole subject of the forensic evidence has to be taken into consideration and thus put into perspective, before selecting appropriate text for the purpose of commentary.  This is why I initially said that it will take time considering the length, detail and complexity of the subject as regards the disapearance of Madeleine McCann.

Concerning the subject of forensics, my original response to a fellow member's post related only to the following statement, I quote  ".... the dogs indicated that a body had lain in the apartment long enough for cadaverine to be detected by dogs, cadaverine that was also found on certain items of clothing....".

This statement is fundamentally incorrect, which I have been trying (without much success it would seem) to redress.  I totally understand why the particular phraseology was used but that's beside the point.  CMoMM is read by the thousands - members and guests - it only takes one incorrect statement or facetious comment to set the tongues wagging.  Anyone who has followed this case on the various fora and blogs will be aware of how quickly a false claim will grow legs and then roam around cyberspace for eternity - the cyber grapevine whisper .  Trouble being that there are many people out there who have nothing better to do than propagate lies and rubbish in order to distort or distract from the truth.

So yes, let's do just starting with the dogs credentials ..

EVRD

'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.R.D.) will search for and
locate human remains and body fluids including blood
in any environment or
terrain.

CSI HUMAN BLOOD DETECTING DOG

'Keela' The Crime Scene Investigation (C.S.I.) dog will search for and locate
exclusively human blood.

Stop there for a moment to ponder the dogs training, in particular the Enhanced Victim Recover Dog.  This is not a case of bark once for cadavarine bark twice for blood bark thrice for body fluid etc, we can leave that sort of nonsense at the door of the likes of the drole humorist - Clement Freud.

Moving on .. for the moment concentrating only on the dogs inspection of apartment 5a, follow the finger print trail..

Verbal Report by Martin Grime Relating to the Searches Carried out with the Dogs in the Ocean Club Apartments

Apartment 5 A


Ok what was done was we deployed the victim recovery dog into the apartment and by experience and the training of the dog what I first noticed is that as soon as I came in that the dog was very excited and as a handler I can pick up his body language etc and it would appear to me that as soon as he has come into the house he's picked up a scent that he recognises and he has then gone through the apartment trying to source where that scent source has come from and as he has worked through the house the only two places where he picks up enough scent to give me the bark alert are in this bedroom, in this corner where he was barking.

What we have to be able to understand in a situation such as this is in a hot climate with the apartment being closed down, the scent will build up in a particular area. If there isn't a scent source in here, i.e. a physical article where the scent is emitting from, any scent residue will collect in a particular place due to the air movement of the flat, the apartment and what I would say in this case is that there is enough scent in that area there for him to give me a bark indication but the source may not be in that cupboard, the source may well be in this room somewhere else but the air is actually pushing into that corner. But strong indication and I would say its positive for things that he is trained to find, which will be part of a separate debrief.

Moving onto the other rooms once he's found what he thinks he's looking for in this room, and we go into the bathroom and come into this bedroom he loses his interest because he's actually found the source that he was looking for, until we come over here and I think you've got it on video that when he first came in he was quite interested in the sofa but he didn't have access to the back of the sofa and when he's gone behind the sofa what I saw was that approximately in the centre of the wall where the window is, just along the tile area between the tiles and the wall, he's been scenting there a lot stronger than he has anywhere else and the when he's gone out there the second time he has decided yes that's what I'm looking for and that's when he has given me the bark indication.

What we should understand with this dog is that he only barks when he finds something, he won't bark at any other times. He won't bark at other dogs, he won't bark at strangers, he won't bark when somebody knocks on the door or anything like that. The only times I've ever known him bark since I've got him as a small puppy a) for his dinner and that's just excitement and that's one of the training methods we use to teach to bark when we want him to and when he actually finds something, he won't bark at other dogs, he won't bark at strangers, he won't bark when somebody knocks on the door or something like that, so again I would say that's a positive indication.

The second dog that we've seen work today is the crime scene dog Keela. She will only indicate to me when she has found human blood, only human blood and it is only blood and there must be something there physically for her to be able to alert to me that's she has actually found something. At this point over here where the victim recovery dog has indicated, as you saw on the video, the crime scene dog had actually given me what we call a passive indication where she freezes in this spot here which would indicate to me that there is some human blood there. She will find blood that's historically very old and she will find anybody's blood, any human blood, which is important to make sure that everybody knows.
----------

All five apartments were searched using the EVRD. The only alert indications were at apartment 5a, the reported scene.

The EVRD alerted in the rear bedroom of the apartment in the immediate right hand corner by the door.

Living room, behind sofa.


Veranda outside parent's bedroom.

Garden area directly under veranda.

My observation of the dog's behaviour in this instance was that the dog's behaviour changed immediately upon opening the front door to the apartment.He will normally remain in the sit position until released and tasked to search. On this occasion he broke the stay and entered the apartment with an aboveaverage interest. His behaviour was such that I believed him to be 'in scent' and I therefore allowed him to free search without direction to allow him to identify the source of his interest. He did so alerting in the rear bedroom.

I released him from this and tasked him to continue to search. He did so alerting in an area to the rear of the sofa in the lounge. The dog's behaviour for these alerts led me to the following opinions:

MINISTERIO PUBLICO DE PORTIMAO

The first alert was given with the dogs head in the air without a positive area being identified. This is the alert given by him when there is no tangible evidence to be located only the remaining scent.

The second alert was one where a definitive area was evident. The CSI dog was therefore deployed who gave specific alert indications to specific areas on the tiled floor area behind the sofa and on the curtain in the area that was in contact with the floor behind the sofa. This would indicate to the likely presence of human blood.

The forensic science support officers were then deployed to recover items for laboratory analysis.

There were no alert indications from the remaining properties. I did however see the dog search in the kitchen waste bins. These contained meat foodstuffs including pork and did not result in any false alert response.
-----

It's all here in the link I previously posted..

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

I think that's enough for the moment.  Pay particular attention to the EVRD dogs training, his reaction to the crime scene and the two alerts in apartment 5a living area where both Eddie and Keela alerted.  Do you think Eddie was alerting to blood residue or cadavarine - or more to the point is it debatable?

As I think I've said before, this area is better left to those with knowledge of forensic science - otherwise the subject is grossly misunderstood/misinterpreted.  One thing relative to the subject however is open to discussion .... why was Leicestershire Constabulary, John Lowe and the UK's prestigious Forensic Science Service involved with a Portuguese investigation?  Why did every sample submitted to the FSS for analysis produce a negative result?

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Re: Forensics Revisited

Post by MayMuse on 24.10.17 22:17

@verdi.... 

I have read it all and the FFS report!

Snipped accounts are often used on this forum, it is not to prove a point... I have asked questions, and your response has failed to answer them. 

EVRD dog is Eddie...cadaverine 

CSI dog is Keela...human blood 

 This "topic" is at the core of missing Madeleine and has been debated for years. 

So I ask again,  if this "transference " as you call it is what Eddie alerted to...where did it come from? 
As you are suggesting that it is debatable that Eddie may have alerted to blood? 
If I am not mistaken that was Keela's training and job to do. 
Eddie was as an EVRD. 
Both were taken into the apartment at separate times to avoid any confusion. 


You are correct in that to leave this to those with better knowledge of forensic science!

Oh and the UK FSS became involved because the PJ used them... its in the files and GA's book... possibly something which could be regretful?

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Re: Forensics Revisited

Post by Verdi on 24.10.17 23:34

@MayMuse

Between my post submission and your reply, you haven't even had time to read and digest.  Your response bears testimony to that simple fact.

I'm wasting my time here, something I do not appreciate.   Please don't expect anything further from me on the subject.

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Re: Forensics Revisited

Post by MayMuse on 25.10.17 0:14

@Verdi wrote:@MayMuse

Between my post submission and your reply, you haven't even had time to read and digest.  Your response bears testimony to that simple fact.

I'm wasting my time here, something I do not appreciate.   Please don't expect anything further from me on the subject.

I have read and digested since 2007!

Dismissed again when you cannot answer ? 
Testament to what you frequently do Verdi, which is sad and quite frankly not appreciated ,as if it's your time wasted, it is mine also!




Both dogs were used at separate times to avoid confusion for the purpose of their specific skills. IF Eddie alerted to human blood behind the sofa as well as Keela does that negate his alert of cadaverine odour in other areas where human blood was not detected? 
No it does not neither does it suggest that a "body" lay for some time for the odour to develop in the apartment or that a "body" didn't ! Dogs dont know time, it is irrelevant...what is important is that "cadaverine" was detected in apartment 5a, the very same apartment which Madeleine as we are told went missing from! No other person or persons had died there.... for cadaverine to be present there has to be a "body" or contact with that "body". 

Unless of course you believe in "sea bass!" 


I am not stupid Verdi please do not treat me as if I am, not one of us has the authority of expert in this case, we all are trying to fathom what happened to Madeleine... we are all with opinion from digesting evidence, and input from others and a healthy intelligent debate should be encouraged, not a put down which is frequently observed! 

Good day!

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Re: Forensics Revisited

Post by Phoebe on 25.10.17 0:42

Verdi is correct when he states that Eddie would alert to blood, this is part of what he looks for whereas Keela's role is to search solely for human blood. However, Martin Grime, in his report does state that he feels Eddie was alerting to cadaver scent -

"My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant. This does not however suggest a motive or suspect as cross contamination could be as a result of a number of given scenarios and in any event no evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with corroborating evidence."


 Martin Grime does make it clear here that the cadaver odour could have come from cross contamination. For instance, something which had been in contact with a corpse may have been placed in the bedroom and behind the sofa and the fact that Keela alerted to blood on the floor behind the sofa and the bottom of the curtains could be coincidental ie. Madeleine's blood was spilled there and something which had been in contact with a dead body contaminated the same spot. The two together are suggestive of a certain scenario but not definitively. It is not impossible that Madeleine bled in the apartment but was somewhere else when she died. This however, would suggest that items which had had contact with her body were brought back to the apartment post-mortem and subsequently moved several times contaminating the bedroom, behind the sofa and various spots in the garden. What item could possibly be so vital that it would be retained, returned to 5A and moved into all these places? I could envisage such a scenario BEFORE a body was successfully hidden elsewhere (if it involved a bag or indeed the body itself) but not after that had occurred?
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Re: Forensics Revisited

Post by MayMuse on 25.10.17 0:56

Yes, @Phoebe what "item" could be so vital? 

Missing bluebag erm er er, not big erm enough er, you know to hold a tennis racquet?

Eddies skills were used first... to determine his findings Keela was then sent into the apartment. 
Corroborating evidence to support the dogs findings was the first report, this I believe was then altered to suit....whom?

Both dogs deserve a medal!

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Re: Forensics Revisited

Post by Phoebe on 25.10.17 1:59

@MayMuse I can't envision them moving say, clothing or a towel/sheet which had been in contact with a body, from the bedroom, to behind the sofa to various spots in the garden after the corpse had been hidden elsewhere! Perhaps if these things were placed in a bag of some sort it would make more sense but why bother keeping them at all? If they had found such a good hiding place for Madeleine's body (as they obviously did!) surely they would have left any such incriminating items there too? I doubt cuddlecat was responsible for this cross contamination as the bed hadn't been contaminated despite cuddle cat lying on it. Kate's clothing and the red T shirt also failed to cross contaminate other clothing/furniture. And if we are to believe they had help from immediately after the death surely those who aided and abetted them would have taken care of such matters rather than handing them back such items to dispose of ? High powered help would be well aware of the importance of leaving no traces. My gut instinct is that the contamination is from poor Madeleine's corpse and places it rested on its way to "disposal"( Gerry's word).
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Re: Forensics Revisited

Post by Verdi on 25.10.17 2:01

@Phoebe wrote: However, Martin Grime, in his report does state that he feels Eddie was alerting to cadaver scent
Yes indeed but there are two separate issues here. 

When Eddie the EVRD entered apartment 5a he got a whiff of something which was more likely to be cadavarine than any other scent considering the reaction was recorded by Martin Grimes as such, I quote..

"His behaviour was such that I believed him to be 'in scent' and I therefore allowed him to free search without direction to allow him to identify the source of his interest. He did so alerting in the rear bedroom...."

"The first alert was given with the dogs head in the air without a positive area being identified. This is the alert given by him when there is no tangible evidence to be located only the remaining scent."

So not likely to be blood because a blood hound goes straight for the source.

Then moving onto the second alert..

"The second alert was one where a definitive area was evident. The CSI dog was therefore deployed who gave specific alert indications to specific areas on the tiled floor area behind the sofa and on the curtain in the area that was in contact with the floor behind the sofa. This would indicate to the likely presence of human blood."
-----------

That was the extent of the dog alerts within apartment 5a.

The CSI dog would not have been deployed unless there was thought to be evidence of blood residue.  Therefore this area behind the sofa alerted by the EVRD could only have been to confirm evidence of blood residue, as the CSI only alerts to blood.  The scent of cadavarine would not have confined itself to floor tiles and the curtain area - at least not without the presence of a corpse by way of evidence.

This is the reason I previously mentioned the clothing etc later signaled by the dogs.  It's highly unlikely that cuddlecat, Kate McCann's harlequin pants, the red T-shirt etc. were all behind the sofa along with the tiles and curtain area.

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Re: Forensics Revisited

Post by Verdi on 25.10.17 2:12

@MayMuse #23

How many more times are you going to edit this post?

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Re: Forensics Revisited

Post by Phoebe on 25.10.17 2:13

@ Verdi 
"The CSI dog would not have been deployed unless there was thought to be evidence of blood residue.  Therefore this area behind the sofa alerted by the EVRD could only have been to confirm evidence of blood residue, as the CSI only alerts to blood.  The scent of cadavarine would not have confined itself to floor tiles and the curtain area - at least not without the presence of a corpse by way of evidence.

This is the reason I previously mentioned the clothing etc later signaled by the dogs.  It's highly unlikely that cuddlecat, Kate McCann's harlequin pants, the red T-shirt etc. were all behind the sofa along with the tiles and curtain area."




Martin Grime cites a similar situation wherein the EVRD dog alerted to an area of carpet on a floor. Nothing of evidential value could be recovered but it later emerged in that case through a confession that the body had indeed lain there briefly after death and the death odour had been confined to that spot. In yet another case the EVRD dog was able to indicate a specific area outdoors where it was later confirmed that a body had rested.
I absolutely concur  with you on how unlikely it is that Kate's clothing and cuddlecat lay behind the sofa, or indeed in the garden.
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Re: Forensics Revisited

Post by MayMuse on 25.10.17 2:22

@Phoebe wrote:@MayMuse I can't envision them moving say, clothing or a towel/sheet which had been in contact with a body, from the bedroom, to behind the sofa to various spots in the garden after the corpse had been hidden elsewhere! Perhaps if these things were placed in a bag of some sort it would make more sense but why bother keeping them at all? If they had found such a good hiding place for Madeleine's body (as they obviously did!) surely they would have left any such incriminating items there too? I doubt cuddlecat was responsible for this cross contamination as the bed hadn't been contaminated despite cuddle cat lying on it. Kate's clothing and the red T shirt also failed to cross contaminate other clothing/furniture. And if we are to believe they had help from immediately after the death surely those who aided and abetted them would have taken care of such matters rather than handing them back such items to dispose of ? High powered help would be well aware of the importance of leaving no traces. My gut instinct is that the contamination is from poor Madeleine's corpse and places it rested on its way to "disposal"( Gerry's word).
Mine too and not transference as suggested below..... I'm sure I read somewhere that Eddie was deployed first and Keela second as to determine or distinguish findings, but can't seem to find it at the moment. 
What's more, the dog alerts did not clarify that a corpse had lain in apartment 5a long enough for cadavarine to develop, the scent could have been by transference - the most likely scenario in my opinion considering the items of clothing etc. that were signaled by the dogs.  I believe that was the opinion of the dogs trainer/handler, Martin Grimes, at the time.  It's late now but tomorrow I will check it out.

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Re: Forensics Revisited

Post by MayMuse on 25.10.17 2:33

@MayMuse wrote:
@Verdi wrote:@MayMuse

Between my post submission and your reply, you haven't even had time to read and digest.  Your response bears testimony to that simple fact.

I'm wasting my time here, something I do not appreciate.   Please don't expect anything further from me on the subject.

I have read and digested since 2007!

Dismissed again when you cannot answer ? 
Testament to what you frequently do Verdi, which is sad and quite frankly not appreciated ,as if it's your time wasted, it is mine also!




Both dogs were used at separate times to avoid confusion for the purpose of their specific skills. IF Eddie alerted to human blood behind the sofa as well as Keela does that negate his alert of cadaverine odour in other areas where human blood was not detected? 
No it does not neither does it suggest that a "body" lay for some time for the odour to develop in the apartment or that a "body" didn't ! Dogs dont know time, it is irrelevant...what is important is that "cadaverine" was detected in apartment 5a, the very same apartment which Madeleine as we are told went missing from! No other person or persons had died there.... for cadaverine to be present there has to be a "body" or contact with that "body". 

Unless of course you believe in "sea bass!" 


I am not stupid Verdi please do not treat me as if I am, not one of us has the authority of expert in this case, we all are trying to fathom what happened to Madeleine... we are all with opinion from digesting evidence, and input from others and a healthy intelligent debate should be encouraged, not a put down which is frequently observed! 

Good day!
Verdi wrote... @MayMuse #23

How many more times are you going to edit this post?


____________________this post of mine was edited to make it clear how you have made me feel.... not good! 

I suppose it is far much less than those which you edit in abundance.

Now may I suggest you get off my back ...you have made it more than obvious your dislike of my input and/or me,today and previously ( even though you don't know me whatsoever) and that just shows what type of person you are, not me.  Considering you said you were not going to comment further, I don't get why you have the need to continue and provoke?


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Re: Forensics Revisited

Post by MayMuse on 25.10.17 2:52

@Phoebe

Worth a read if you haven't already...

Harrison also suggests that we use the skills of two totally remarkable dogs: the first an EVRD (Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog), achieves outstanding performance in the detection of human cadaver odour; the second, a CSI dog (Crime Scene Investigation) is capable of smelling the tiniest trace of blood, knowing how to recognise its human origin. To convince us of their capability and the extraordinary work carried out by these very special detectives in the course of over 200 investigations, he screens a video for us, showing their training and their intervention on the ground.


https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t13711-bring-in-the-dogs-the-hypothesis-of-death-is-considered-the-arrival-of-the-specialists?highlight=Death+by+accident



EDIT TO INCLUDE...

I knew I'd seen it somewhere... 

Eddie is always the first to be brought onto a site. Once he has discerned the odour that he knows so well, it's Keela's turn to go into action, on the lookout for the slightest whiff of blood. The simultaneous presence of the two elements in a given place - blood and cavaver odours - is taken to indicate that a body has been there and that it's probably there that the death occurred.

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Re: Forensics Revisited

Post by sar on 25.10.17 9:27

not sure where we're going with making a distinction?  Mods, supermods???

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Re: Forensics Revisited

Post by Phoebe on 25.10.17 11:43

Without hard evidence in the form of an actual body Eddie and Keela's findings of cadaver odour and blood in 5A are something which lead to interpretation of what this fact means. The P.J. and Dr. Amarel were of the opinion that this indicated -

"From the OFFICIAL POLICE FILES

10 September 2007
(Processo: VOL ,X, p. 2587-2602)


"....we conclude that:

- The minor Madeleine McCann DIED in the apartment 5A of the Ocean Club resort, on the night of May 3rd of 2007

 - It was performed a SIMULATION of kidnapping;
 
 - Kate McCann and Gerald McCann are INVOLVED in the occultation of the cadaver of their child Madeleine McCann;...


If we accept the Portuguese police conclusion above then it is reasonable to say that Madeleine's corpse was indeed in 5A for a period, which seems to be the crux of the dispute upthread. Where exactly in the apartment that corpse lay we cannot be sure but it does seem fairly reasonable to connect its position with the cadaver odour alerts methinks.


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