Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

[Markus 2]

What a pity the buttoned pants pictured lying about openly on the marital bed by the GNR photographer immediately upon his arrival were not able te be checked for residue from 'the surrounding area'

Any buttons missing on those trousers , maybe they just might find one which was torn off by the bushes. Needle in haystack unless close to the hiding place .

[finch]

On the subject of sewers and drain-pipes, this is a piece from Textusa. Hard to follow sometimes, but interesting. 
http://textusa.blogspot.be/2010/05/sewer-video.html

[ultimaThule]

< snip>

I know nothing about ERVD dogs, can they differentiate between 'cadaver' odours, or do cadaver 'odours' all 'smell' the same?

Corpses emit different odours at various stages of decomposition, but a human nose which has been exposed to the odour of an unembalmed week old corpse may not be able to detect the difference if subsequently exposed to the scent of an unembalmed month old corpse.  

As with any scent/perfume, it can take repeated exposure to unembalmed corpses of different ages before a human nose can detect  the 'top notes', as it were, from the lower ones and identify them correctly but, fortunately, there are other means of determining approximate date of death which allow the option of nose/mouth masks being worn when exhuming corpses and subjecting them to pathological examination. .

I copied and saved this piece some time ago from a forensic science website (which I can't now recall) and it goes to show how sophisticated the olfactory senses of canines are in comparison with our own:
"Cadaver Dogs
Also known as ‘decomp dogs’, these specially trained canines are trained to follow the scent of decomposing flesh in order to locate the bodies of deceased human beings. Whether the cadaver is on the surface, buried underground or under water, a dog’s nose is powerful enough to pick up the scent and trace it back to its source. Cadaver dogs can not only locate actual human remains, but also the location in which a corpse or body parts may have previously been stored by tracking down residual scents. Depending on the use of the cadaver dog, they will be trained to detect specific decomposition odours. For example, some may be trained to detect odours associated with the early stages of decomposition, whereas others may be required to locate older remains. Some dogs are specifically trained to detect dead bodies underwater, with the canine situated on a shoreline or boat. A newer concept is that of historical human remains detection dogs, which are trained to locate historical or archaeological graves."

Thanks for the interesting information on Cadaver dogs.

I've just come across this Forensic website, scroll down to bottom of first page for links to everything Forensic

http://www.forensicmag.com/topics/forensic-anthropology?page=1

Another site:

Location of Clandestine Graves - clues from plants

Murderers do not always give up the secret of where they have buried their victims.

http://forensicsforwriters.blogspot.co.uk/2013/06/location-of-clandestine-graves-clues.html

In the first link you've given there is an interesting article on adipocere formation, cadaver dogs, and soil scientists, with the title 'Soil characteristics that impact clandestine graves',  cherryblossom.

[sami]

On the subject of sewers and drain-pipes, this is a piece from Textusa. Hard to follow sometimes, but interesting. 
http://textusa.blogspot.be/2010/05/sewer-video.html

Remember the photo of Gerry and Michael Wright (?) down on the beach with phone in hand ?  Would pipes have emptied in that location I wonder.

[Guest]

Can you direct me to I please?

Hi, not sure id this is addressed to me or not. The news about the deadline was on the BBC News channel on TV.

I think it was to me regarding pinpointing the location of the tent. The picture was taken, I think, from the southwest corner of the site, looking north-east. The buildings in the background are actually in different planes although the look like they're together. It's not too far from the back of the solitary house that stands on that side of the road.

[Guest]

Imagine how he will feel if they find Margaret so.

I don't know how they can refer to their lost child as DNA, they get worse every single time they speak.

They didn't, they said "remains that match her DNA".

Little difference, IMO.  Why not leave it at remains.

Big difference in my opinion. But my point was that they are not referring to their lost child as DNA as several here have claimed, they said "remains that match her DNA".

So what in effect the MC's are saying is that even if you find the remains of a 4 year old girl we are going to wait until the results have come back from the laboratory with more than 16/19 markers positive before we will come to claim and be with our little girl.
That is sick.

[whatliesbehindthesofa]

Very interesting info from ITV News:

http://www.itv.com/news/story/2014-06-02/madeleine-mccann-praia-da-luz-portugal/

Madeleine police 'taken by surprise' by discovery

By Martin Geissler, ITV News Correspondent

There have been a couple of developments here that have taken us and have perhaps taken the police teams by surprise.

At the very edge of the wasteland where officers are searching are a couple of white tents.

Under them is a hole. They found it yesterday, it was covered by a couple of sheets of corrugated iron and then that was covered by some soil.

They dug away and they pulled these sheets apart yesterday and they found this very precise hole in the shape of a square - now, that's of interest to them, they didn't know it was there.

We've seen a couple of police officers in forensic suits inside those tents, we don't know what they've found, we don't know if it is of specific interest but we do know it's something they didn't anticipate when they got here.

[jeanmonroe]

Imagine how he will feel if they find Margaret so.

I don't know how they can refer to their lost child as DNA, they get worse every single time they speak.

They didn't, they said "remains that match her DNA".

Little difference, IMO.  Why not leave it at remains.

Big difference in my opinion. But my point was that they are not referring to their lost child as DNA as several here have claimed, they said "remains that match her DNA".

So what in effect the MC's are saying is that even if you find the remains of a 4 year old girl we are going to wait until the results have come back from the laboratory with more than 16/19 markers positive before we will come to claim and be with our little girl.
That is sick.

Buy them enough time to do even a faster 'runner' than when they left Portugal!

[Justiceseeker]

The news said police have 8 people they want to interview.

This suggests one of the tapas 9 has given info to the police and broken the pact hence why the other 8 need to be interviewed. 

This would explain why the digs have started imo.

I believe the net is closing.

[whatliesbehindthesofa]

Throwing a question out to PeterMac:

Could fingerprints be detected on a surface such as a corrugated iron sheet, after 7 years in the environment of Praia da Luz?

[PeterMac]

Sky saying - and showing TWO tents side by side over the hole they exposed yesterday when they moved the corrugated iron, and forensic officers going in.

[Bishop Brennan]

The news said police have 8 people they want to interview.

This suggests one of the tapas 9 has given info to the police and broken the pact hence why the other 8 need to be interviewed. 

This would explain why the digs have started imo.

I believe the net is closing.

Can you be a tad more specific on "the news". Radio? TV? Internet? Foreign program? Channel?

[Brock_and_Roll]

< snip>

I know nothing about ERVD dogs, can they differentiate between 'cadaver' odours, or do cadaver 'odours' all 'smell' the same?

Corpses emit different odours at various stages of decomposition, but a human nose which has been exposed to the odour of an unembalmed week old corpse may not be able to detect the difference if subsequently exposed to the scent of an unembalmed month old corpse.  

As with any scent/perfume, it can take repeated exposure to unembalmed corpses of different ages before a human nose can detect  the 'top notes', as it were, from the lower ones and identify them correctly but, fortunately, there are other means of determining approximate date of death which allow the option of nose/mouth masks being worn when exhuming corpses and subjecting them to pathological examination. .

I copied and saved this piece some time ago from a forensic science website (which I can't now recall) and it goes to show how sophisticated the olfactory senses of canines are in comparison with our own:
"Cadaver Dogs
Also known as ‘decomp dogs’, these specially trained canines are trained to follow the scent of decomposing flesh in order to locate the bodies of deceased human beings. Whether the cadaver is on the surface, buried underground or under water, a dog’s nose is powerful enough to pick up the scent and trace it back to its source. Cadaver dogs can not only locate actual human remains, but also the location in which a corpse or body parts may have previously been stored by tracking down residual scents. Depending on the use of the cadaver dog, they will be trained to detect specific decomposition odours. For example, some may be trained to detect odours associated with the early stages of decomposition, whereas others may be required to locate older remains. Some dogs are specifically trained to detect dead bodies underwater, with the canine situated on a shoreline or boat. A newer concept is that of historical human remains detection dogs, which are trained to locate historical or archaeological graves."

Thanks for the interesting information on Cadaver dogs.

I've just come across this Forensic website, scroll down to bottom of first page for links to everything Forensic

http://www.forensicmag.com/topics/forensic-anthropology?page=1

Another site:

Location of Clandestine Graves - clues from plants

Murderers do not always give up the secret of where they have buried their victims.

http://forensicsforwriters.blogspot.co.uk/2013/06/location-of-clandestine-graves-clues.html

In the first link you've given there is an interesting article on adipocere formation, cadaver dogs, and soil scientists, with the title 'Soil characteristics that impact clandestine graves',  cherryblossom.

Some here may be interested in the gruesome work done after the Great War to retrieve and re-inter bodies. The first thing to note is that detecting evidence of bodies or body parts from differences in plant, water or soil colour was a skilled job and the success rate great depended hugely on the prior experience of the men. Secondly, parts of the battlefield were searched intensively on a grid basis up to 20 times - yet in the years after the searches remains continued to be found in these areas. Thirdly, even at the time there were areas that for various reasons that were not searched that thoroughly - eg if the scrub was really bad, the weather terrible, morale bad, private land etc etc etc. To this day of course, hundreds or thousands of men remain unaccounted for. As the old saying goes, people tend to search where the light shines brightest first!

[Guest]

Very interesting info from ITV News:

http://www.itv.com/news/story/2014-06-02/madeleine-mccann-praia-da-luz-portugal/

Madeleine police 'taken by surprise' by discovery

By Martin Geissler, ITV News Correspondent

There have been a couple of developments here that have taken us and have perhaps taken the police teams by surprise.

At the very edge of the wasteland where officers are searching are a couple of white tents.

Under them is a hole. They found it yesterday, it was covered by a couple of sheets of corrugated iron and then that was covered by some soil.

They dug away and they pulled these sheets apart yesterday and they found this very precise hole in the shape of a square - now, that's of interest to them, they didn't know it was there.

We've seen a couple of police officers in forensic suits inside those tents, we don't know what they've found, we don't know if it is of specific interest but we do know it's something they didn't anticipate when they got here.

They're over by the Rua das Lages somewhere. This was the location of the fisherman's cottage from that weird episode of A Place In The Sun I mentioned a little while back. I have wondered before about the little square brick building there.

Growing up in PdL, I would bet Robert Murat knew these parts like the back of his hand.

[Guest]

Does anyone remember a poster on the 3As who had a particular interest in the drains and tunnels in PdL? I think it was a woman, and she visited PdL to check out some of her theories. Can't remember the name.

Wicksy - it is Johanna, the blogger (Unterdentepich) who had this interest and has just posted some pictures of the drains/tunnels on MCF.
Her view is that this area was the first resting place, not where a body is likely to be found.

[Justiceseeker]

The news said police have 8 people they want to interview.

This suggests one of the tapas 9 has given info to the police and broken the pact hence why the other 8 need to be interviewed. 

This would explain why the digs have started imo.

I believe the net is closing.

Can you be a tad more specific on "the news".  Radio? TV? Internet? Foreign program?  Channel?  

This was said on ITV NEWS last night.

If source is genuine then it screams one of the tapas 9 has spoken and explains a lot.

[CynicAl]

I think the tent has been moved over the 'hide' now.

I will not, repeat NOT, be 'surprised' IF the self proclaimed brilliant, elite, (BHH descrpition of Maddie 'cops') Met 'emerge' with a 'close enough 'family' match, DNA impregnated, tattered pair of Eeyore pj's'.

In fact, i have 'a feather', nearby, that my OH will knock me down with!

eta: I 'hope' i'm wrong, btw.

BUT.................

I can only presume you're eluding to PJSY framing the McCann's... What value would DNA impregnated pyjamas have in respect of the available weight of evidence, the unanswered questions and so on? You surely can't genuinely believe that any answer other than the right one could possibly settle the major problems and contentions that have been raised in what is being laughingly called a 'whitewash?' 

Those pyjamas, if discovered, will no more point fingers at EM than they will at me or you.

[Cristobell]

What a pity the buttoned pants pictured lying about openly on the marital bed by the GNR photographer immediately upon his arrival were not able te be checked for residue from 'the surrounding area'

Any buttons missing on those trousers , maybe they just might find one which was torn off by the bushes. Needle in haystack unless close to the hiding place .

And what a shame Kate was allowed to do a load of laundry on Saturday 5th May - 2 days after Madeleine disappeared. 

1.  What mother could do laundry in such circumstances, and
2.  Why didn't the police ask for Madeleine's dirty clothes that night?  She made no mention of doing laundry after the children had their baths etc and before she went out etc.  Ergo, where were/are the clothes Madeleine wore that day?  The beads she had in her hair, which cannot be removed without taking knots of hair with it?  The toothbrushes - I'v never actually seen a statement from Gerry or anyone saying they shared, but then again, I have never seen 'legitimate' reference as to what happened to Madeleine's clothes.  Did anyone see the outfit Maddie wore for the 'last photo' in the clothes spread out across the hall?

[endgame]

The news said police have 8 people they want to interview.

This suggests one of the tapas 9 has given info to the police and broken the pact hence why the other 8 need to be interviewed. 

This would explain why the digs have started imo.

I believe the net is closing.

Can you be a tad more specific on "the news".  Radio? TV? Internet? Foreign program?  Channel?  

This was said on ITV NEWS last night.

If source is genuine then it screams one of the tapas 9 has spoken and explains a lot.

If only! IIRC the figure 8 has been mentioned before and taken to refer to Ocean Club employees, cleaners etc. - the ones whom the Portuguese have as yet not given permission to interview. But I'm sure there will be many who, if the story is true, think AR is sending a message to the Tapas 9 minus 1.

[Brock_and_Roll]

Sky saying - and showing TWO tents side by side over the hole they exposed yesterday when they moved the corrugated iron, and forensic officers going in.

Perhaps wise not to get excited too early about this news. The presence of such sewer/drain access in itself is not surprising, only the fact that perhaps it appears not to be marked on local utilities maps. With a square shape presumably this is modern structure and could have been put in place prior so some planned but abandoned development.

I found TWO previous unknown wells in garden, but alas there was nothing of interest in either of them beyond Victorian rubbish!

[Cristobell]

Very interesting info from ITV News:

http://www.itv.com/news/story/2014-06-02/madeleine-mccann-praia-da-luz-portugal/

Madeleine police 'taken by surprise' by discovery

By Martin Geissler, ITV News Correspondent

There have been a couple of developments here that have taken us and have perhaps taken the police teams by surprise.

At the very edge of the wasteland where officers are searching are a couple of white tents.

Under them is a hole. They found it yesterday, it was covered by a couple of sheets of corrugated iron and then that was covered by some soil.

They dug away and they pulled these sheets apart yesterday and they found this very precise hole in the shape of a square - now, that's of interest to them, they didn't know it was there.

We've seen a couple of police officers in forensic suits inside those tents, we don't know what they've found, we don't know if it is of specific interest but we do know it's something they didn't anticipate when they got here.

They're over by the Rua das Lages somewhere. This was the location of the fisherman's cottage from that weird episode of A Place In The Sun I mentioned a little while back. I have wondered before about the little square brick building there.

Growing up in PdL, I would bet Robert Murat knew these parts like the back of his hand.

As did keen joggers Kate and Gerry - probably more so than the locals, who are probably too busy working to enjoy the beauty of the surrounding area.

[nglfi]

Je pense à la question que certaines personnes ont soulevé que les échantillons d'ADN renvoyés de la FSS, voire de la taie d'oreiller Rothley ont peut-être été mal famé. Je pense que même s'ils l'étaient, ce n'est pas grave parce que si un squelette ou des parties d'un corps qui contiennent de l'ADN sont trouvées, elles peuvent être confirmées avec 99% de certitude comme étant un parent de la famille McCann. Et vraiment, ils n'ont aucun moyen de faire valoir leur moyen de sortir de ça! Je crois que j'ai lu quelque part que la PJ ont déjà des échantillons des McCann il est donc trop tard pour eux de refuser de fournir un échantillon de toute façon.

Excellent point. Même si elles ne sont pas en possession d'un de l'ADN de Madeleine, ils peuvent comparer tout ADN trouvé à Kate, Gerry, et l'ADN de leurs enfants.

Si jamais un squelette complet se trouve, informations dentaires ou autres pourraient, sans l'ADN, aussi mener à l'identification.
L'"nous ne serons pas venir jusqu'à ce que vous avez ADN" par le couple McCann semble si psychopathe.

if Maddie did not dna "McCann"? They never find a matching DNA was Madeleine Mccann  

Eh? My French isn't that good! C'est pas mal mais pas excellent!

[Guest]

You've got to twist, and then pull, Sir. You don't want to just tear the tick from your uhm, nutsack. Sir.

[Cristobell]

Surge in activity:


http://www.itv.com/news/central/update/2014-06-04/video-activity-surges-in-portugal-madeleine-search/

[Sceptic]

http://www.sundayworld.com/top-stories/crime-desk/donal-macintyre-s-crime-cafe/mccann-search-lacks-commitment-and-direction-expert-claims#.U47-LA4jN8E.twitter