Re: LIBEL TRIAL DISCUSSION HERE

by **tigger** 21.09.13 7:35

aquila wrote:
tigger wrote:We should clearly ask what a 'clinical partner' is.

It sounds to me as one of those made up council titles - e.g. Environmental hygiene executive: dust man.
Imo he has no medical qualifications, or even para- medical qualifications, a First Aid certificate isn't clinical training imo.

I hope Pike hasn't lied, Aquila, his Mum would be ever so cross!
It should most definitely be asked what a clinical partner is.

It's most interesting he is working for Missing People!

Could someone find the missing People topics - The one on them getting massive financial support in 2007?
MP have since then done a splendid job in keeping some 50-odd people employed. Nearly all their income goes on staff salaries to about 1.5 million a year. winkwink

by **PeterMac** 21.09.13 7:57

aiyoyo wrote:
AP – They were surprised with the book because the final Report said they were innocent.
GP – Have you read the final report?
AP says "no".
GP – How do you know then what its conclusions are?
AP says the McCanns told him.
My favourite bit.

He's shot himself in the foot..OUCH!!!

THAT IS ABSOLUTELY PRICELESS

They told him. The fact that they LIED to him, the final report did NOT say they were inocent, in fact it said quite the opposite seems to have eluded him completely.

Let us recap

viii - Despite all of this, it was not possible to obtain any piece of evidence that would allow for the reasonable man, under the light of the criteria of logics, of normality and of the general rules of experience, to formulate any lucid, sensate, serious and honest conclusion about the circumstances under which the child was removed from the apartment (whether dead or alive, whether killed in a neglectful homicide or an intended homicide, whether the victim of a targeted abduction or an opportunistic abduction) nor even to produce a consistent prognosis about her destiny and inclusively - the most dramatic - to establish whether she is still alive or if she is dead, as seems more likely.

by **PeterMac** 21.09.13 8:07

He was obviously giving

McEvidence

A variant of Humpty Dumpty's dictum

"But 'glory' doesn't mean 'a nice knock-down argument'," Alice objected.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master—that's all."

by Liz Eagles 21.09.13 8:14

tigger wrote:
aquila wrote:
tigger wrote:We should clearly ask what a 'clinical partner' is.

It sounds to me as one of those made up council titles - e.g. Environmental hygiene executive: dust man.
Imo he has no medical qualifications, or even para- medical qualifications, a First Aid certificate isn't clinical training imo.

I hope Pike hasn't lied, Aquila, his Mum would be ever so cross!
It should most definitely be asked what a clinical partner is.

It's most interesting he is working for Missing People!
Could someone find the missing People topics - The one on them getting massive financial support in 2007?
MP have since then done a splendid job in keeping some 50-odd people employed. Nearly all their income goes on staff salaries to about 1.5 million a year.

I don't want to derail this topic by going into Missing People but the charity launched its first ever Family Conference on 7th September 2013. Since that date there have been no updates on their website about it.

The agenda for the day was as follows:

11.00am – Speakers and Questions

Pat Geenty, ACPO lead on missing

Geographies of Missing research team

Families

Missing People

Trauma specialist

There is absolutely nothing reported by Missing People in the two weeks following their first ever family conference. No message of what a success the day was, how it was such a boost for the families (and I sincerely hope it was), thanking the various speakers etc....nothing, nada, zilch.

by **PeterMac** 21.09.13 8:56

"MC – Which strong negative feeling did Kate McCann report to you in the summer of 2009?
AP – She was afraid, she wished she wasn't there; she talked of killing herself as an option."

This was specifically DENIED by Clarence Mitchell.
LIBEL TRIAL DISCUSSION HERE - Page 26 Daily_10

LIBEL TRIAL DISCUSSION HERE - Page 26 Daily_10

The McCann's spokesman (Clarence Mitchell) was forced to deny that Mrs McCann was suicidal......
So who's telling lies - Kate or Clarence?
(Posted by Wyatt Burp)

To which we can now add
So who is telling lies " Kate, Clarence, Pike . . .?

by aiyoyo 21.09.13 9:12

tigger wrote:We should clearly ask what a 'clinical partner' is.

It sounds to me as one of those made up council titles - e.g. Environmental hygiene executive: dust man.
Imo he has no medical qualifications, or even para- medical qualifications, a First Aid certificate isn't clinical training imo.

I hope Pike hasn't lied, Aquila, his Mum would be ever so cross!

Or, over exaggerated qualification. Reminds us of the other one who claimed himself a criminologist.

by aiyoyo 21.09.13 9:13

Aquila wrote:
AP also says he works for Missing People that wouldn't be the same organisation Missing People who have welcomed KM as an ambassador would it?

Of course IT is, hence the connection.
Bet she was recommended.

by Cristobell 21.09.13 9:26

aiyoyo wrote:
Aquila wrote:
AP also says he works for Missing People that wouldn't be the same organisation Missing People who have welcomed KM as an ambassador would it?
Of course IT is, hence the connection.
Bet she was recommended.

I think it was probably the other way round. KM probably got him consultancy work with missing people.

by aiyoyo 21.09.13 9:27

PeterMac wrote:
aiyoyo wrote:
AP – They were surprised with the book because the final Report said they were innocent.
GP – Have you read the final report?
AP says "no".
GP – How do you know then what its conclusions are?
AP says the McCanns told him.
My favourite bit.
He's shot himself in the foot..OUCH!!!
THAT IS ABSOLUTELY PRICELESS

They told him. The fact that they LIED to him, the final report did NOT say they were inocent, in fact it said quite the opposite seems to have eluded him completely.

You have to wonder why Kate did not also give him the AG's Final Report (since she gave him Amaral's book), so that he could compare them.

These witnesses exit Court having learned they'd been duped all along.

by Guest 21.09.13 9:30

aiyoyo wrote:
tigger wrote:We should clearly ask what a 'clinical partner' is.

It sounds to me as one of those made up council titles - e.g. Environmental hygiene executive: dust man.
Imo he has no medical qualifications, or even para- medical qualifications, a First Aid certificate isn't clinical training imo.

I hope Pike hasn't lied, Aquila, his Mum would be ever so cross!
Or, over exaggerated qualification. Reminds us of the other one who claimed himself a criminologist.

Point is, when/if/as this type of questions were not asked then the witness was on the stand, they will not be asked ever

Frankly, I'm rather surprised and more than a little disappointed by the scarcity and vagueness of the questions asked on behalf of the defendants.

But it could be that they are busy gathering the documents proving the TM witnesses were economical with the truth or mistaken, for use at a later stage

I hope so

by GRACEFUL1 21.09.13 9:38

21 September 2013 | Posted by astro Leave a Comment

Kate considered committing suicide

LIBEL TRIAL DISCUSSION HERE - Page 26 Amaral+bright

Maddie's mother spent her days in panic and anguish. Threats were made on the internet

by:Mariana Paiva

Kate McCann was close to committing suicide. Psychologist Alan Pike, who has been helping the McCann family since 2007, said yesterday in court that she had "dark thoughts". The McCanns demand compensation in the amount of 1.2 million euro from Gonçalo Amaral over damages that were caused by the publication of the book 'The Truth of the Lie', in which the former PJ inspector defends that Maddie died.

Kate told the psychologist that she was so devastated by Gonçalo Amaral's book that "she couldn't bare the days with the panic and the anguish that she felt".

"Kate thought about not being around anymore. She said killing herself was an option to end the trauma she was experiencing. I deduced it was an indication of how she felt rather than something she ever intended to do. Kate was unwell and shared many dark thoughts", Alan Pike said, recalling that Kate spent days crying over the injustice that had been done to Maddie by the people that should be helping her.

Yesterday, Kate's cousin Michael Bright , who until 2010 monitored the internet pages and e-mails that were related to Madeleine's disappearance, also testified. He told that on some forums there were several publications inciting to the abduction of twins Sean and Amelie, now aged eight, Maddie's younger siblings. Michael told Gerry and denounced the threats to Leicester Police, in the UK. Nonetheless, he doesn't know if anything was done. He also described the couple's suffering when they learned about the screening of the documentary on TVI. "It was horrible", he said.

Madeleine McCann disappeared on the 3rd of May, 2007, from a tourist resort in Praia da Luz, in the Algarve, where she was spending a holiday with her family.

in: Correio da Manhã, 21.09.2013

by aiyoyo 21.09.13 9:39

Portia wrote:
aiyoyo wrote:
tigger wrote:We should clearly ask what a 'clinical partner' is.

It sounds to me as one of those made up council titles - e.g. Environmental hygiene executive: dust man.
Imo he has no medical qualifications, or even para- medical qualifications, a First Aid certificate isn't clinical training imo.

I hope Pike hasn't lied, Aquila, his Mum would be ever so cross!
Or, over exaggerated qualification. Reminds us of the other one who claimed himself a criminologist.
Point is, when/if/as this type of questions were not asked then the witness was on the stand, they will not be asked ever

Frankly, I'm rather surprised and more than a little disappointed by the scarcity and vagueness of the questions asked on behalf of the defendants.

But it could be that they are busy gathering the documents proving the TM witnesses were economical with the truth or mistaken, for use at a later stage

I hope so

Obviously Defence side is constraint by time limit.
After the witnesses had waffled, there's the back and forth time needed for translator to convey questions & answers.

by aiyoyo 21.09.13 9:44

Cristobell wrote:
aiyoyo wrote:
Aquila wrote:
AP also says he works for Missing People that wouldn't be the same organisation Missing People who have welcomed KM as an ambassador would it?
Of course IT is, hence the connection.
Bet she was recommended.
I think it was probably the other way round. KM probably got him consultancy work with missing people.

What? Riding on the back of Mccanns' fame! laugh

by MrsC 21.09.13 10:38

' Alan Pike said, recalling that Kate spent days crying over the injustice that had been done to Maddie by the people that should be helping her.'

You just couldn't make it up! nah

by Woofer 21.09.13 10:39

From the beginning of Alan Pike`s testimony i.e.

"ID – This book had great impact on Kate, Gerald, Sean and Amelie McCann. Why? Can you explain?
AP says that, in order to understand the effect of the publication of the book on the McCann family, it is necessary to understand something about this family.
In the first 12 months after the abduction (note: he always speaks of "abduction"), the most dramatic..."

Note that he continues his testimony from the Claimant`s theory of ABDUCTION.

Why wasn`t an objection raised at that point? In that ABDUCTION has not been proved and is only a theory on the part of the Claimant.

Even if the defence lawyers hadn`t objected, the Judge should have.

by russiandoll 21.09.13 10:53

from AP evidence " AP – They were disappointed the case was closed. This meant than the case might never again be investigated. However, they were relieved that they were no longer considered to have been involved; they were no longer official suspects."

from the account of the truth

On Monday 21 July the Portuguese AG office announced investigation archived pending further evidence. G and K had no official notification of this from Portuguese authorities, heard about it from news agencies.
1ST DESCRIPTION OF HER FEELINGS WRITTEN ABOUT NEXT

" It may sound odd but in some ways we were glad the investigation had been closed. As I've said, we were far from convinced that there was any real investigation taking place anyway, so to have it brought to an end didn't seem as big a loss as might have been expected. While the PJ had continued to provide the usual response - " The official investigation continues. All credible lines of enquiry will be pursued" - we had been receiving messages from concerned people who had tried to pass on information to the police, only to be told " the child is dead." Now that the investigation had concluded, reports could be channelled directly to our own team, which would give them, we hoped, more to go on. It was certainly better than nothing."

Kate suggests that in other ways she and Gerry were unhappy about the closing of the investigation, but she chooses not to focus on the negative. Instead she elaborates on the positives. There is nothing wrong with trying to be positive about a negative situation, but she does not mention even one negative aspect of the archiving.
This is not compatible with AP testimony of disappointment. Kate conveys an impression of relief that at last their own team of helpers could use information which was being dismissed by the Portuguese police.

re the dropping of the arguido status for her and her husband

" As for the dropping of our arguido status, it was hardly a cause for celebration. All it meant that after 11 months of being pilloried, we were back where we started. Madeleine was still missing, we still had to find her. It was a relief, of course . In spite of my disgust with the whole business, I could appreciate that not being an arguida was preferable to being an arguida and that Gerry and I were in a better position than the day before. It was also an acknowledgment that the Portuguese authorities had nothing to implicate us in Madeleine's disappearance , just as we'd always insisted. ** And we hoped that some of the doors that had been closed to us in September 2007 would now reopen.2

** as a proof-reader, I would have reworded that ambiguous sentence.

by Woburn_exile 21.09.13 10:55

Nice article on the witness testimony, the most prominent thing that jumps at me is:

AP says the activities and reactions of Gonçalo Amaral were unpleasant and distressing. At that time it was very difficult to tolerate his campaign of trashing the McCann's reputation.

When this incident happened all I heard about from my professional circles which included Social services the general theme was "WHAT RUBBISH PARENTS". Can somebody point me to the untrashed reputation of the McCanns BEFORE the child went missing. Throw in a payne and a Gasper and hey, I wonder where it would lead to.

shark

ONLY ONE

by **PeterMac** 21.09.13 10:59

PeterMac wrote:"MC – Which strong negative feeling did Kate McCann report to you in the summer of 2009?
AP – She was afraid, she wished she wasn't there; she talked of killing herself as an option."

This was specifically DENIED by Clarence Mitchell.

The McCann's spokesman (Clarence Mitchell) was forced to deny that Mrs McCann was suicidal......
So who's telling lies - Kate or Clarence?
(Posted by Wyatt Burp)

To which we can now add
So who is telling lies " Kate, Clarence, Pike . . .?

And as someone has just pointed out the advert to the left is
M & S - 3 for 2 - Mix and Match

by russiandoll 21.09.13 11:03

AP says the activities and reactions of Gonçalo Amaral were unpleasant and distressing. At that time it was very difficult to tolerate his campaign of trashing the McCann's reputation.

There should be OBJECTIVE, DISPASSIONATE AND CLINICAL ASSESSMENT, BECAUSE THIS WITNESS HAS BROUGHT UP SUICIDE.

The above is hearsay, he is merely quoting what he has been told about a person's emotions, he is not giving an expert professional opinion.

WHERE ARE THE MEDICAL NOTES AND PSYCHIATRIC REPORTS ?

by **PeterMac** 21.09.13 11:05

russiandoll wrote:
" As for the dropping of our arguido status, it was hardly a cause for celebration. All it meant that after 11 months of being pilloried, we were back where we started. Madeleine was still missing, we still had to find her. It was a relief, of course . In spite of my disgust with the whole business, I could appreciate that not being an arguida was preferable to being an arguida and that Gerry and I were in a better position than the day before. It was also an acknowledgment that the Portuguese authorities had nothing to implicate us in Madeleine's disappearance , just as we'd always insisted. ** And we hoped that some of the doors that had been closed to us in September 2007 would now reopen.2

** as a proof-reader, I would have reworded that ambiguous sentence.

Let us re-cap YET AGAIN for the benefit of the pros. . . who may stil be having difficulty with the concept that Kate is either telling lies or is so stupid that she genuinely did not understand

«Despite all of this, it was not possible to obtain any piece of evidence that would allow for a reasonable man, under the light of the criteria of logics, of normality and of the general rules of experience, to formulate any lucid, sensate, [sensible] serious and honest conclusion about the circumstances under which the child was removed from the apartment (whether dead or alive, whether killed in a neglectful homicide or an intended homicide, whether the victim of a targeted abduction or an opportunistic abduction), nor even to produce a consistent prognosis about her destiny and inclusively – the most dramatic – to establish whether she is still alive or if she is dead, as seems more likely.

In other words they were implicated in the invention of the story. They were clearly not believed by anyone up to and including the AG,.

by plebgate 21.09.13 11:08

The parents actions on THAT holiday were distressing and unpleasant to Maddie. IMO it was not Mr. A. who trashed their reputations.

by aiyoyo 21.09.13 11:33

russiandoll wrote:AP says the activities and reactions of Gonçalo Amaral were unpleasant and distressing. At that time it was very difficult to tolerate his campaign of trashing the McCann's reputation.

There should be OBJECTIVE, DISPASSIONATE AND CLINICAL ASSESSMENT, BECAUSE THIS WITNESS HAS BROUGHT UP SUICIDE.

The above is hearsay, he is merely quoting what he has been told about a person's emotions, he is not giving an expert professional opinion.

WHERE ARE THE MEDICAL NOTES AND PSYCHIATRIC REPORTS ?

Trashing's mccanns' reputation? He's bothering on libelous Amaral.

What a difference some coaching makes hey?

Have no doubt he'd some coaching from Kate and ID.

by russiandoll 21.09.13 11:33

Kate, in your account of the truth, you begin to describe your feelings about the archiving in an ambiguous fashion. GLAD IN SOME WAYS and that gladness MAY SEEM ODD.

You appear to have confided your innermost thoughts to Mr Pike, who describes you as DISAPPOINTED and who has mentioned the negative emotion you chose to remain silent about in your book. Mr Pike was unambiguous in his evidence ABOUT YOUR STATE OF MIND.

I find it odd that you choose not to mention any negative feelings about the archiving, in fact you accentuate the positive. It is a book of the truth, so it must be a FACT that you were not sufficiently disappointed to allude to negative feelings in your book.

So, were you SAD or GLAD at the archiving?

If any of the pros are reading here, btw I hope you understood my photo of the Beckett play. A duo in dustbins. I chose that still from the play because I remember vividly the derogatory comparison by Kate of 2 Portuguese police officers to Tweedledee and Tweedledum " bewildered and out of their depth "

A pretty good description of a couple of the plaintiffs' witnesses so far. Or perhaps you don't do " IRONY" .

by plebgate 21.09.13 11:43

russiandoll wrote:Kate, in your account of the truth, you begin to describe your feelings about the archiving in an ambiguous fashion. GLAD IN SOME WAYS and that gladness MAY SEEM ODD.

You appear to have confided your innermost thoughts to Mr Pike, who describes you as DISAPPOINTED and who has mentioned the negative emotion you chose to remain silent about in your book. Mr Pike was unambiguous in his evidence ABOUT YOUR STATE OF MIND.

I find it odd that you choose not to mention any negative feelings about the archiving, in fact you accentuate the positive. It is a book of the truth, so it must be a FACT that you were not sufficiently disappointed to allude to negative feelings in your book.

So, were you SAD or GLAD at the archiving?

If any of the pros are reading here, btw I hope you understood my photo of the Beckett play. A duo in dustbins. I chose that still from the play because I remember vividly the derogatory comparison by Kate of 2 Portuguese police officers to Tweedledee and Tweedledum " bewildered and out of their depth "

A pretty good description of a couple of the plaintiffs' witnesses so far. Or perhaps you don't do " IRONY" .

by aiyoyo 21.09.13 11:48

The publication of the Amaral book caused a bombshell. It was not so much the content of the book, but what one could deduce from it as the book had been published so soon after the shelving of the case. The famous secret of the instruction had been broken by the author of the book. There was a feeling of dire frustration and helplessness, the McCanns could speak to nobody, they had been told so.
ID - How did the book speak whereas they weren't allowed to?
AP – It suggested Gonçalo Amaral and the PJ had relationships before the shelving.
AP doesn't understand how the book could be published, considers that it was a violation of the secret. The fact the book was written by a police officer gave credibility to the book. When, 14 months after the abduction, the McCanns found out about the content of the book and its conclusions (a simulated abduction), their anxiety increased. The McCanns started to worry about public opinion in Portugal, if people thought Madeleine was dead, they wouldn't look for her. Since it was then accepted that the greatest chance of finding Madeleine was still in Portugal, that possibility declined significantly if the public believed her to be dead.
Then something unexpected happened. Alan Pike asked if he could use notes that were on his iPad. The judge said "yes of course" but when it became clear that Alan Pike was going to read extracts from the McCann book "Madeleine", the judge instructed that he couldn't read the book to the Court.
AP says the activities and reactions of Gonçalo Amaral were unpleasant and distressing. At that time it was very difficult to tolerate his campaign of trashing the McCann's reputation.
(Note: AP repeats, repeats what he has already said. It is not clear why he needed his iPad)

It's patently obvious he'd coaching from ID.
Educated guess says, probably he took notes of his exchanges with ID on his iPad, and without it could not recall everything discussed that he was to bring up.
Just have to ask yourself why would that aspect, breach of code of secrecy or not, corncerned a Counsellor. No reason at all.
His role was to highlight the emotional health of Kate. They had the other psychologist vouching for the twins, and AP was there to vouch for Kate.
You can see after a-week of respite (and coaching), issues that ID had raised before, now get aired using the witness.
It's obvious where they want to lead the Court to...