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Kate and Dogs - all sorts

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Kate and dogs - all sorts

Post by suzyjohnson on 14.03.13 14:12

With regard to the 'last photo' is it possible that it took so long to appear either because -
a) the McCann's didn't want the police to know what MM had actually been wearing on the afternoon of May 3rd, or
b) the McCann's wanted the police to think that outfit was what MM had been wearing on 3rd May?

Tigger - I thought this was important because, this picture did not appear until 2 or 3 weeks after MM's reported disappearance, if something had happened to her whilst she was wearing these clothes then they would not be able to hand them over to the police, therefore they wouldn't want police to see the photo of her wearing them (until they had washed them or maybe collected another set?)

Alternatively, was this picture produced so that they could avoid handing over the outfit that she was actually wearing at the time, to make it look as though she was wearing those clothes that afternoon?

I suppose your view of it's importance varies according to whether you believe something happened to MM on the 3rd or earlier in the week.

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Re: Kate and Dogs - all sorts

Post by tigger on 14.03.13 15:25

suzyjohnson wrote:With regard to the 'last photo' is it possible that it took so long to appear either because -
a) the McCann's didn't want the police to know what MM had actually been wearing on the afternoon of May 3rd, or
b) the McCann's wanted the police to think that outfit was what MM had been wearing on 3rd May?

Tigger - I thought this was important because, this picture did not appear until 2 or 3 weeks after MM's reported disappearance, if something had happened to her whilst she was wearing these clothes then they would not be able to hand them over to the police, therefore they wouldn't want police to see the photo of her wearing them (until they had washed them or maybe collected another set?)

Alternatively, was this picture produced so that they could avoid handing over the outfit that she was actually wearing at the time, to make it look as though she was wearing those clothes that afternoon?

I suppose your view of it's importance varies according to whether you believe something happened to MM on the 3rd or earlier in the week.

I can't see how this is important. If the police saw the picture some three weeks later and in the unlikely event of them asking about these clothes in particular - there are thousands of excuses that could be made. It was a borrowed dress given back, it was taken home by family etc. etc.

As far as the bolded line goes - you've totally lost me. Pass.

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Getting back to dogs...

Post by tigger on 14.03.13 16:45

Wed 2nd May 2007

"... I left a little while later again, to go for a run with Matt. I'd bought a new pair of running shoes a few days before we left for Portugal, and they were certainly getting a good initiation. They were pink, which I wasn't quite sure about - I wondered how seriously a runner in pink trainers could be taken - but after a few outings in the sand they weren't looking quite so glaring and girly. As we ran along the promenade, a small dog jumped out from under a bench and attacked my right calf" unquote

I'm trying to find the other instance of her being attacked or bothered by dogs - I remember something about her being surrounded by up to 12 dogs - again when out running. Kate seems to understand dogs at least as well as she understands children..

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Re: Kate and Dogs - all sorts

Post by Guest on 14.03.13 16:57

You're right, Tigger. Dogs will go after anything which and anyone who is running [away from them]. It's their instinct :-)
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Re: Kate and Dogs - all sorts

Post by bobbin on 14.03.13 17:00

tigger wrote:Wed 2nd May 2007

"... I left a little while later again, to go for a run with Matt. I'd bought a new pair of running shoes a few days before we left for Portugal, and they were certainly getting a good initiation. They were pink, which I wasn't quite sure about - I wondered how seriously a runner in pink trainers could be taken - but after a few outings in the sand they weren't looking quite so glaring and girly. As we ran along the promenade, a small dog jumped out from under a bench and attacked my right calf" unquote

I'm trying to find the other instance of her being attacked or bothered by dogs - I remember something about her being surrounded by up to 12 dogs - again when out running. Kate seems to understand dogs at least as well as she understands children..
I also recall, think she had run up the hill and the dogs were at the top apparently, as far as I remember, she said she was alone.

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Re: Kate and Dogs - all sorts

Post by Guest on 14.03.13 17:02

Wasn't that the same hill, she had a dream about and phoned Pavia?
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Re: Kate and Dogs - all sorts

Post by tigger on 14.03.13 17:17

Kate's diary.

23 Jul 2007
I got up at 7.00 and went running. I was surrounded by a pack of dogs (more or less 12)—it really wasn't a nice experience. I went to the flat, high part of the cliff as I felt really alone and a little frightened. Please God, don't let Madeleine be buried here. Please God, make sure she's alive. Please God, bring her back quickly to us.

Gerry was in Washington.

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Re: Kate and Dogs - all sorts

Post by jd on 14.03.13 17:19

She was running to the concrete obelisk at top of the cliffs that overlooks Praia Da Luz (or in her words a 'concrete monument')...I believe the record she done it in was 19 mins

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Re: Kate and Dogs - all sorts

Post by tigger on 14.03.13 19:08

I made a mistake wit the 11.00 am/pm.
The tracking or sniffer dogs were deployed at 23.00 on 4th May.

However, Kate says she didn't know of the first dogs arriving - fairly promptly I must say, they would hardly be on stand-by in PdL - at 2.30 am. Yet according to the officer, this was the occasion when she gave them the blanket. The other officer mentions a piece of clothing.
Kate merely says that sometime during that morning she gave them the blanket.
Yet the GNR officers say that both the McCanns were in the apartment when they came in (at 2.30) and requested recently worn clothing of the child.

The next set of dogs were deployed around OC and PdL as search and rescue. I cannot find a mention of what they were given or whether they were given anything to sniff.

By 23.00 that evening (4th May) only a turkish towel, which the statement gives as supposedly belonging to the minor is made available.


GNR Morais:
On 4th May he was called at about 01.15, he arrived at the OC at about 1.55, accompanied by the officer Laçao.After having established exactly where the girl had disappeared from, he was given a piece of her clothing by one of his colleagues, whose name he does not remember.
As he did not obtain any results in the area close to the resort, he extended the perimeter of the search to a distance of 1 km.
GNR Laçao:
After arriving at the GNR post with his colleagues Morais and two dogs (Numi and Kit), German Shepherd dogs, which made up the search team, they immediately left for P da L. They arrived at about 02h30.
When they arrived at the scene, they entered the McCanns' apartment by the front door, and entered the living room, where there were some PJ officers as well as the McCann couple. They just talked to some colleagues from the PJ and asked for a piece of clothing that Madeleine had worn or used recently. They were given a pink/orange blanket that the child had been covered with in her bed.They finished the searches at about 07h00 AM.
His dog's speciality is patrolling (Maintenance of Public Order) although the dog also has some training in "tracking".

GNR Fernandez
He remembers that on the 4th of May of the current year, around 23h00, they attempted to tentatively identify and thus reconstruct the path taken by the missing minor. They gave the dogs a Turkish bath towel which was supposedly used by the child in question. This operation was realised by two different dogs.

None of the dogs used in this search, after having been given the towel supposedly used by the child, entered into block 5 but went immediately to the street between the apartment and the leisure area.
(these dogs were the trackers or sniffer dogs which had to come from Lisbon - for this reason they were not available earlier).

So why didn't the dogs have any interest in block 5?

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Kate and dogs - all sorts

Post by suzyjohnson on 14.03.13 19:12

'Alternatively, was this picture produced so that they could avoid handing over the outfit that she was actually wearing at the time, to make it look as though she was wearing those clothes that afternoon?'

Tigger - what I am trying to say is, did the Mccann's want the police to think that MM had been wearing the pink top and white shorts on the Thurs afternoon (when actually she could've been wearing something different) and was this the reason that the 'last photo' didn't appear until 2 - 3 weeks after MM's disappearance (because this idea was only just thought of)?

I think missing clothes would've have looked very suspicious indeed.



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Re: Kate and Dogs - all sorts

Post by tigger on 14.03.13 20:06

suzyjohnson wrote:'Alternatively, was this picture produced so that they could avoid handing over the outfit that she was actually wearing at the time, to make it look as though she was wearing those clothes that afternoon?'

Tigger - what I am trying to say is, did the Mccann's want the police to think that MM had been wearing the pink top and white shorts on the Thurs afternoon (when actually she could've been wearing something different) and was this the reason that the 'last photo' didn't appear until 2 - 3 weeks after MM's disappearance (because this idea was only just thought of)?

I think missing clothes would've have looked very suspicious indeed.

Why would a change of clothes that afternoon be suspicious? She could have been photographed in one outfit and changed into another.

I questioned why the pink dress wasn't given to the GNR simply because it should have been around. If you believe Kate that is.
I also questioned why Kate doesn't specify in the book what article of clothing she gave the GNR. Psychologically it's dismissive - where everything belonging to your lost child should be special and precious. If I gave say - the pink hat - I'd have to have it back, it's a link to my child.

But all of Maddie's clothes seem to have gone off on an adventure of their own, some to the laundry on Saturday (5th), the blanket disappeared between 2.30 am and 23.00 p.m. on the 4th and imo the simplest explanation is that there were few clothes belonging to Maddie because she wasn't there.
Pity about that obsession with cleanliness - because the dogs were searching OC on the 8th. Probably a towel again.

Besides, the police were trying to find a living little girl, what she had been wearing was less important than the description of what she allegedly was wearing.

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Re: Kate and Dogs - all sorts

Post by stumo on 14.03.13 20:54

suzyjohnson wrote:I think missing clothes would've have looked very suspicious indeed.


tigger wrote:Why would a change of clothes that afternoon be
suspicious? She could have been photographed in one outfit and changed
into another.

I think suzy means the clothes would have blood on them....so they weren't there ...

apologies if that's not the case
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Re: Kate and Dogs - all sorts

Post by Beanie on 14.03.13 20:56

tigger wrote:Wed 2nd May 2007

"... I left a little while later again, to go for a run with Matt. I'd bought a new pair of running shoes a few days before we left for Portugal, and they were certainly getting a good initiation. They were pink, which I wasn't quite sure about - I wondered how seriously a runner in pink trainers could be taken - but after a few outings in the sand they weren't looking quite so glaring and girly. As we ran along the promenade, a small dog jumped out from under a bench and attacked my right calf" unquote

I'm trying to find the other instance of her being attacked or bothered by dogs - I remember something about her being surrounded by up to 12 dogs - again when out running. Kate seems to understand dogs at least as well as she understands children..

Could this attack have been a cover up for the bloody footprint found in the apt. I seem to recall reading it was a trainer. However, if this was the case surely Kate and Gerrys trainers were checked?

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Re: Kate and Dogs - all sorts

Post by Beanie on 14.03.13 21:03

Quote Tigger:


simplest explanation is that there were few clothes belonging to Maddie because she wasn't there.

Do you mean not there on the holiday?

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Re: Kate and Dogs - all sorts

Post by tigger on 14.03.13 21:11

Beanie wrote:
tigger wrote:Wed 2nd May 2007

"... I left a little while later again, to go for a run with Matt. I'd bought a new pair of running shoes a few days before we left for Portugal, and they were certainly getting a good initiation. They were pink, which I wasn't quite sure about - I wondered how seriously a runner in pink trainers could be taken - but after a few outings in the sand they weren't looking quite so glaring and girly. As we ran along the promenade, a small dog jumped out from under a bench and attacked my right calf" unquote

I'm trying to find the other instance of her being attacked or bothered by dogs - I remember something about her being surrounded by up to 12 dogs - again when out running. Kate seems to understand dogs at least as well as she understands children..

Could this attack have been a cover up for the bloody footprint found in the apt. I seem to recall reading it was a trainer. However, if this was the case surely Kate and Gerrys trainers were checked?

I checked on several forums on this. It seems to have been a myth, either that or it's in the withheld files.
What is rather silly about this episode is that there is no mention of rabies or tetanus. Plus the interest we should have in the colour of her shoes.

@ Beanie - Not there in the apartment at least for some days imo. Imo she died fairly early in the holiday. They'd been cleaning the apartment and for some reason they didn't seem to want her scent or DNA to be there. It's next to impossible to avoid shedding the stuff.

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Re: Kate and Dogs - all sorts

Post by Guest on 14.03.13 21:14

tigger wrote:[[...]Plus the interest we should have in the colour of her shoes.
8**
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Kate and dogs - all sorts

Post by suzyjohnson on 14.03.13 21:16

Yes, Stumo, thanks, that there may have been some reason that they couldn't produce the clothes. So, could a false photograph have been made to persuade the police that MM was actually wearing a different outfit.

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Re: Kate and Dogs - all sorts

Post by Guest on 14.03.13 21:22

tigger wrote:
Beanie wrote:
tigger wrote:Wed 2nd May 2007

"... I left a little while later again, to go for a run with Matt. I'd bought a new pair of running shoes a few days before we left for Portugal, and they were certainly getting a good initiation. They were pink, which I wasn't quite sure about - I wondered how seriously a runner in pink trainers could be taken - but after a few outings in the sand they weren't looking quite so glaring and girly. As we ran along the promenade, a small dog jumped out from under a bench and attacked my right calf" unquote

I'm trying to find the other instance of her being attacked or bothered by dogs - I remember something about her being surrounded by up to 12 dogs - again when out running. Kate seems to understand dogs at least as well as she understands children..

Could this attack have been a cover up for the bloody footprint found in the apt. I seem to recall reading it was a trainer. However, if this was the case surely Kate and Gerrys trainers were checked?

I checked on several forums on this. It seems to have been a myth, either that or it's in the withheld files.
What is rather silly about this episode is that there is no mention of rabies or tetanus. Plus the interest we should have in the colour of her shoes.

Not a myth as such tigger, it was reported on, and IIRC Mr Amaral mentioned it way back in an interview in the early days. According to this report in the Standard, they obtained a forensic report

Madeleine: Bloody footprint found in McCanns' apartment


13 October 2007



A bloody footprint was found in Kate and Gerry McCann's apartment, matching a print on their hire car, according to a forensic report shown to The Mail on Sunday.


The existence of the two marks, which has never been revealed until today, is apparently at the heart of renewed suspicion that the couple were involved in their daughter's disappearance.

New tests carried out at the Forensic Science Service laboratory in Birmingham show there is a 'moderate' chance that the blood belonged to Madeleine. But the results are inconclusive.


More on link....
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/madeleine-bloody-footprint-found-in-mccanns-apartment-6642364.html


So where is this forensic report, not in the files???
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Re: Kate and Dogs - all sorts

Post by tigger on 14.03.13 21:26

Thanks CF! I looked up a few topics here and elsewhere - poor old FSS, another casualty of getting involved with the McCanns. imo.

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Re: Kate and Dogs - all sorts

Post by tigger on 14.03.13 21:36

stumo wrote:
suzyjohnson wrote:I think missing clothes would've have looked very suspicious indeed.


tigger wrote:Why would a change of clothes that afternoon be
suspicious? She could have been photographed in one outfit and changed
into another.

I think suzy means the clothes would have blood on them....so they weren't there ...

apologies if that's not the case

Don't worry Stumo.
I know. A hundred ways of hiding bloodstained clothes and the argument doesn't stand up. The photograph wasn't available until three weeks later.
So how could the police worry about not finding that dress that evening? When they did see the photo, she could have changed after it was taken. So what?
Anything could have 'happened' to the outfit. Sent back to UK to keep it safe for one.

It's also irrelevant to the dogs, they needed something that she'd worn recently, they got the blanket and when the specialist sniffer/tracker dogs came, they were even unluckier, they got a towel.
Seeing how the whole family share toothbrushes and hairbrushes, sharing a towel would be a logical step. Not so amazing that the dogs' findings were on the whole inconclusive.

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Re: Kate and Dogs - all sorts

Post by Beanie on 14.03.13 21:38

Blood footprint on wooden floor in the entrance to Maddie's room. Size 5 or 6 shoe

This quote is on Pamalam's site with a picture of bedroom entrance and marking where footprint was found. Apologies I have no idea how to post a picture.

Have to say looking at the picture the floor looks tiled not wooden.

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Re: Kate and Dogs - all sorts

Post by tigger on 14.03.13 21:58

Beanie wrote:Blood footprint on wooden floor in the entrance to Maddie's room. Size 5 or 6 shoe

This quote is on Pamalam's site with a picture of bedroom entrance and marking where footprint was found. Apologies I have no idea how to post a picture.

Have to say looking at the picture the floor looks tiled not wooden.

Well, that's those pink shoes solves then! Didn't see the blood running down on the pink shoes when bitten by the dog. Got home, never noticed the bleeding or worried about rabies. Never noticed the mark on the floor.

(Beanie, I'm hopeless at moving photographs around - if you just copy and paste the address/link it's easy to find).

Here it is: v. interesting in 5a - not the villa! http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/m/press/6oct7/13_10_2007.htm

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Re: Kate and Dogs - all sorts

Post by Nina on 14.03.13 22:33

I find it strange that there is only one print. If I tread in anything and get it on my sole it would be in more than one place.

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Re: Kate and Dogs - all sorts

Post by Beanie on 15.03.13 8:22

Thanks Tigger and Candyfloss for posting links.

The picture shown does appear to be a wooden floor but all the photographs I have seen of 5a show tiled floors, very confusing.

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