Missing Tia Sharp

I forgot to say on my post that Social Services soon closed my stepdaughters case but to my mind she and her sisters are still at risk because of her mothers behaviour and the example they have been set. It is so sad and the man who did it has got away scot free and is still advertising for women on the internet.

aiyoyo wrote:o/t

Err...has Dewani escape Justice? I thought it's still pending.

As for the infamous pair, they have to continue praying to their GOD that their luck and MONEY hold out.

Yes, as uptatoffee says... Dewani has post traumatic shock.... poor thing! As for the McCanns it's been five years and counting.

My point is when are these people going to pay for their crimes, and what message does it send out to society?

Smokeandmirrors wrote:I also read either on SKY or DM that Christine Sharp role as a carer was with children with autism, I hope to goodness she was not involved in any actual cruelty to Tia because then that opens up a whole new can of worms.

Also given Hazell's list of offences, why was he on the loose in the first place? If we were harder on criminals and gave appropriate sentences to machete wielding drug dealers, he would not have been out and Tia would still be alive.

I have to laugh at the conversation between the five members at jatyk2, now reduced to two. " Ooh bonny. Do you know sabot. yes sabot, I will bonny" Bat to and forth.

Then the third member in the forum of the cavalry arriving from the USA chimes in with this. Hilarious!!!!

"The saddest part is that if she hadn't been taking care of her that weekend, this may never have happened."

You stupid, stupid thing. Talk about stating the obvious.

uppatoffee wrote:[
The question in this case is what made Hazell, turn from being your fairly standard, drug dealing violent thug into a suspected murderer and whether there was any indication that this might happen.

uppatoffee, you seem well cognizant with the workings of the Social Services.

It's not past crimes or nature of the crimes that's determinant factor of potential danger.
Rather his childhood and family background hence his psychology is important factor for assessment consideration.
It all comes down to what moral value or social conscience the offender possesses or lacks.

Say for example, if he's from a troubled home rife with violence and crime then a criminal life or a criminal minded psychology is NORMAL to him; then the question of what is right of wrong does not occur to him when committing an act that can or will constitute as crime in law.

Maybe the Social Services thought Tia was residing with her Mother. Her Mother would not necessarily inform anyone unless the Child Benefit was being paid to someone other than the Mother. It seems Tia went from family to family whenever it was convenient.

I have agree with previous comments that she must have led a rather disjointed life not having a permanent residence. I agree her Mother must take some responsibility for her welfare. Poor Tia - what an awful thing to suffer.

RIP Tia.

This case has shocked and appalled me hope Tia now can rest in peace. I live on an estate but work full time , keep my home and my garden tidy etc., there are as many good families, hard working decent ones as bad living in my area so I am a bit peeved at the snobbery and prejudice on this thread. There are so many cases of abuse of all sorts which occur in all classes.

If a person was released from prision after a conviction for violence then social services have to be informed automactically if a person under 18 years of age either lives at the same address or is a close family member and is known or suspected to have regular contact with the offender.

pennylane wrote:

aiyoyo wrote:o/t

Err...has Dewani escape Justice? I thought it's still pending.

As for the infamous pair, they have to continue praying to their GOD that their luck and MONEY hold out.

Yes, as uptatoffee says... Dewani has post traumatic shock.... poor thing! As for the McCanns it's been five years and counting.

My point is when are these people going to pay for their crimes, and what message does it send out to society?

There is the case of the man who killed both his parents and then asked for mercy in court because he was an orphan?

Same sort of logic. Dewani has had his wife killed and the McCanns can claim in court (if ever!) that they've been hounded by the press and have suffered severe stress in the aftermath -
Wait! They've already done that. Damn!

What do you call 50 lawyers at the bottom of the sea?
A good start.

Angelique wrote:snip. I agree her Mother must take some responsibility for her welfare. ...

They take "responsibility' for nothing. That is the point. They have been bought up on a diet of woolly lefty thinking that it is all "society's" fault, or their parents', or the system, or the police, or their neighbours, or the state of the free house they live in, or the lack of money, or the council . . .
It is never their own responsibility.

(Hang on, that is also the mantra from another set of parents as well, isn't it.)

Aiyoyo wrote:

The government needs to do more to help psychological disturbed individuals by offering rehabilitation or keeping them away from community if younger and future generations of children are to have hope of salvation from environment of such detrimental social dynamics families.

This I believe is a social phenomenon far too complex and deep rooted for the government alone to be able to tackle, let alone solve. As someone who worked in the City during the Thatcher era, I take the view that she is more than in small part to blame for the social consequences of the individualism she so ardently promoted. Once proud and respected working class has virtually disappeared and those who failed to rebrand themselves as middle class have sunk to the bottom of the social ladder.

People, and the subsequent governments, have often talked about the need for more education, more opportunities, better social care, etc. but in the world where there is no longer any body that can uphold moral authority, where easy fame and material gain is seen as ultimately desirable, handing out more cannot be the only answer. Am I the only one who felt uneasy about the lottery handing out a disproportionate amount to a recent winner? Maybe I am missing the point of lottery but it is so symbolic of unearned acquisition.

So how to counter this very complicated social problem. I am sure many millions have been spent by government think tanks and I am not pretending to have a simple answer but believe some things can contribute towards bettering the lives of those who happened to be born in that social class and find it difficult to break away.

Education, education, education:
1. Improve the quality of teaching staff. Finland where they have much tougher control over teaching qualifications has the highest achieving schools in the western world.
2. Promote competitive sports in schools.
3. Develop the mentoring system and encourage more professional people to take on the challenge of providing guidance and encouragement to those who lack role models in their immediate environment.

People seek moral guidance as much as pointers to life achievements. In the era of post Christian domination, it is so easy for the foreign Imans to indoctrinate the young minds and incite them to anti-social, destructive behaviours. We must reverse that trend.

Lastly, in this quick reflection, yes we must rein in government handouts. In Spain, unemployment benefit has recently been reduced to six months. Although this will cause immeasurable amount of misery to many, it is also likely to result in keeping the family units tighter still out of pure necessity. This cycle of I'm out of this shithole - get pregnant - get my own house and cash to live on - find a man - get pregnant - get a bigger house and double benefit must be stopped.

coppernob wrote:
If a person was released from prision after a conviction for violence then social services have to be informed automactically if a person under 18 years of age either lives at the same address or is a close family member and is known or suspected to have regular contact with the offender.

Perhaps it is different for different local authorities, but where I live Social Services do not receive automatic notification of violent offenders being released. Quite often they will come to hear of it, through other case work or liaison with police.

First Post



New Addington: the benighted estate Tia Sharp called home




It was meant to be a 1930s 'garden estate' – today it is as deprived as many inner city communities


BY Robert ChesshyreLAST UPDATED AT 09:20 ON Tue 14 Aug 2012



WHEN the Tia Sharp murder suspect, Stuart Hazell, 37, appeared before magistrates in south London yesterday, one headline spoke volumes about the community in which they both lived. It read: "Tia suspect will appear by video link to deter crowds." The article below the headline explained that the highly unusual decision had been taken "to avoid the danger that an angry crowd might gather" outside the magistrates' court.

Hazell and 12-year-old Tia, the grand-daughter of Hazell's partner, Christine Sharp, 46, lived on the estate of New Addington, an appendix to south London which reaches down into the Kent countryside. Despite its leafy surrounds, New Addington is an impoverished ghetto of 25,000 largely white people.

The risk that the authorities wished to avoid by keeping Hazell away from court was an unseemly and possibly violent demonstration by vigilante-minded local people.

New Addington is one of the strangest places in London. It sits perched on the North Downs at the end of the Croydon tram network close to the pleasant and well-heeled village of Addington with its golf courses and Palace, a country club used for weddings and corporate functions. New Addington is a community of 25,000 people, many of them truly poor, as removed from the affluence on their doorstep as if it were a deprived inner city estate.

New Addington was begun in the 1930s, planned as a working class garden city, and completed in the 1960s. The planners' expectations for the people who moved there was well illustrated by the provision (or lack of it) of educational opportunities. The estate had no grammar school, but did have a farm to train labourers nicknamed 'Cowshit College' and attached to the community's then secondary modern school.

The many hard-working, law-abiding people who live in New Addington have to fight the prejudices that pull such areas down. To give a New Addington address when applying for a job is likely to mean that the application goes to the bottom of the pile. The reputation affects all aspects of life: credit, education, employment.

The strange horrors of the past two weeks will not have helped: the apparent murder (though this has yet to be established) of a popular 12-year-old girl; the tangled relationships in her family – an absent and departed father, a young grandmother living with the man suspected of the girl's killing; a (yet again) bungled police operation, which failed to find Tia's body in the loft of one of the small, badly constructed houses that comprise most of the estate.

The 'shrine' – and there is no other word for the huge accumulation of teddy bears, flowers and candles that grows by the hour outside the house where Tia's body was found – is evidence of local people's solidarity, but so also is the fear that hundreds might demonstrate outside the magistrates' court, attacking the van bringing the suspect to court.

I first visited New Addington at the height of the early 1980s boom. I spoke to people without qualifications, skills or motivation, many of whom had fallen foul of the law. They had disappeared into what one local educator described to me as a 'black hole'. Without characterising the whole community – and there is great sensitivity about the area's reputation – it would be true to say that New Addington has more than its fair share of the illiterate and the innumerate. Few of the young men I then interviewed had stable family backgrounds.

To be born in an area like New Addington is to be born as far away as possible from any sort of privilege. If David Cameron's analysis of 'broken Britain' has any validity, it applies to communities like this one. Normally, most of the country takes little notice: it is only when riots or a head-lined murder capture the national attention that the rest of us take note.

A few years ago, when I was writing an article about a homicide cop, I was called to New Addington where there had been a professional hit killing of a drug dealer recently released from prison. The victim's car tyres had been deflated, and when he came out to investigate, he was shot through the back of the head by a gunman who calmly walked away and (as far as I know) was never caught. This murder made no waves whatsoever, the implication being 'What does one expect in a low-life community?'

By contrast, Tia's death – highlighted by the community search for her when all the time her body was decomposing in her grandmother's loft – captured the national imagination, in part, one feels, because its awful circumstances stood in such contrast to the happy and triumphant Olympic Games taking place a few miles away across London. The good and the bad in contemporary British life could not have been more starkly underlined. Tia's suspected murder is as far from the Games feel-good factor as one could get.

Having got to know several people in New Addington, I feel desperately sorry for the community. The name of the benighted estate, already infamous in its own locality, will now be known far more widely for all the wrong reasons. If those who live there struggled previously to overcome the disadvantages of their address, it will now be a great deal harder.

We talk of the Olympic legacy, meaning sports fields and opportunities for (mainly fortunate) athletes: a fitting legacy for Tia Sharp would be a national resolution to tackle the ills that beset so many who normally live out-of-sight and out-of-mind in places like New Addington. Each murder is unique, but they often tell us something important about the communities in which they happen.


Read more: http://www.theweek.co.uk/uk-news/tia-sharp-murder/48465/new-addington-benighted-estate-tia-sharp-called-home#ixzz23bQ3l5kO

Box-ticking coppers with no common sense, and why I despair that my old force took eight days to find Tia




By Iain Gordon

The Police have won praise for their smooth organisation and good humoured efficiency at the London Olympics.


But away from the razzmatazz of the Games, they have come in for severe criticism for their handling of the case of Tia Sharp, the 12-year-old schoolgirl whose body was found in the loft of her grandmother’s home in Croydon.


The subsequent murder charge brought against Stuart Hazell, the partner of Tia’s grandmother, has thrown into question the catalogue of errors the police seem to have made in this grim saga.








Accused: Stuart Hazell (left) has appeared at Camberwell Green Magistrates' Court charged with the murder of Tia Sharp (right), his partner's granddaughter

Amazingly, no fewer than three previous searches of the house had failed to locate the body, despite the use of specialist teams and sniffer dogs.


The Metropolitan Police have now issued an apology over the initial mismanagement of the investigation, which has caused anguish to relatives and residents of the New Addington area where Tia lived.


It can only be hoped these errors did not compromise any vital evidence. But, beyond the murder inquiry itself, this episode raises troubling questions about the approach of the police in such cases.

For all too often it appears common sense and a robust spirit of justice has been replaced by a slavish attachment to arbitrary procedures and political correctness. As a result, some investigations seem paralysed by bureaucracy and rule-bound anxiety.


The prevailing mood was very different when I was a detective inspector in the Met. Then the needs of the victim held the highest priority. The emphasis was on finding out the truth about what had happened, not on ticking boxes or following academic theories.


I served 30 years in the Met until retiring 1995, and latterly my career was spent in child protection. So I developed a rich store of experience in dealing with missing persons and, sadly, murder inquiries.




It took four searches of Tia's grandmother's house to locate the twelve-year-old's body

Moreover, I have known the New Addington area all my life, for I not only grew up in Croydon but was also a detective covering that large housing estate during spells in the Seventies and Eighties.


In defence, it should be recognised that there are huge numbers of excellent officers who are simply hidebound by an intolerable management system. Furthermore, we should all accept that working on murder investigations and cases of missing persons can be extremely demanding, both mentally and physically.


I will never forget my first sight of a dead body. The manager of one of the police canteens had been missing for a couple of weeks, so a team was sent to search his flat in Paddington. As I was the youngest and smallest member of the team, I was told to manoeuvre myself through a small window to reach his bedroom.


Immediately I prised open the window, an appalling smell of decomposition hit my nose.


Having climbed inside, I discovered the disfigured corpse of the victim who had been tortured and murdered by a gang of robbers after his money.


But the difficulties of the job can be made worse by excessive caution. The needs of the investigation have to come first, not the sensitivities of the family — even one that is grieving.








Excessive caution: The deaths of Victoria Climbie (left) and Baby Peter (right) raised questions about the influence of social work on police investigations


In the field of social work, we have seen all too often in cases like those of Victoria Climbie or Baby Peter that investigators felt inhibited from intruding on the family environment, no matter how serious the evidence of wrong-doing.


Disturbingly, there seems to be a whiff of that social services outlook in this New Addington murder investigation.


What was needed from the start was more rigour. The absolute golden rule I was taught in missing persons cases was to secure the family home or the premises where the victim was last seen.


Such places had to be searched properly as soon as a report of a disappearance was made, if only just to rule out any foul play. This approach also meant that precious police time and resources were not squandered on covering a wide geographical area.


In the Tia case, it was reported that 80 officers were involved in the search, while 800 hours of CCTV footage were gathered, and around 200 volunteers helped the police to scour a local woodland. A proper initial search of her grandmother’s house would surely have discovered her body — and vital resources would not have been wasted.


Tia’s case appears to highlight a worrying breakdown in common sense, once regarded as the most valuable attribute of British coppers. An insidious process is at work within the police, where experience is valued less than academic qualifications and where adherence to fashionable dogma counts more than results.




The Tia Sharp case seems to highlight a breakdown of common sense within the police

This development has a number of causes.


One is the retreat from local policing. This used to be the central pillar of British crime fighting, with officers and detectives renowned for their grasp of their neighbourhoods. But all that has disappeared.


When I began in the mid-Sixties at Harrow Road police station, working the beat was by far the most important part of the job. Officers on duty were expected to be out on patrol at all times, unless there were exceptional circumstances.


The beat provided the best police intelligence of all, because officers really got to know the people and problems of the area.

Today, local policing has all but disappeared — and with it that vital local knowledge. Police no longer carry out routine foot patrols, their role now being performed by less experienced, poorly-trained Police Community Support Officers.


Huge numbers of stations have closed throughout the country, and detectives are no longer encouraged to remain in one place for years, partly because their bosses fear that this can lead to an unhealthily cosy relationship with the local underworld.




Procedure: Police officers are restricted by official guidelines

In addition, the fashionable emphasis on ‘career development’ means officers have to acquire a wide range of paper qualifications to advance — so they move rapidly from one position to another without gaining any in-depth understanding of their local area.


Another problem is the prevailing corporate ethos, with its emphasis on procedures rather than initiative.

Police officers now inhabit a world of safety guidelines and risk assessments, which restrict their scope for action.


More...

• Wrapped in a black bed-sheet in bin bags: Details of how Tia Sharp's body was found emerge as her step-grandfather is remanded in custody charged with murder
  

I remember once, in my early days with the Met, when there was a siege at a basement flat in the West End of London. A gunman was holed up and occasionally opening fire through the windows. Without any regard for personal safety, a group of officers drove him out of his lair by running at the flat and hurling snooker balls through the windows. The strategy worked but it would be unthinkable today.


On top of all this is the police’s obsession with diversity. For some highly-politicised police chiefs, brimming with rhetoric about social exclusion and eager to please their masters at Westminster, the composition of the workforce has become more important than fighting crime.


It is true that in urban forces we need more black and Asian coppers, but I cannot understand the neurosis about a gender balance in the police. After all, the overwhelming majority of crime is perpetrated by men. Crime is not an equal opportunities activity.





More from Iain Gordon...

• VIEW FULL ARCHIVE
  

The negative side of the fixation with diversity can also been seen in the fear of tackling criminal behaviour by ethnic minorities, whether it is rioting youths in London, predatory Muslim gangs in the industrial north or trespassing travellers in Essex.


In all these cases, the language of victimhood and social oppression prevented the police from vigorously upholding the law. My fear is that the same querulous spirit might have prevailed in the New Addington case, with the police anxious about appearing too judgemental towards what is obviously a highly dysfunctional family.


This is no way to maintain the cohesion of our society. All of us, regardless of class or race, deserve to be protected from the forces of disorder.


Indeed, it is the most vulnerable who are in the greatest danger when the police become instruments of social engineering rather than determined fighters against crime.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2187930/Tia-Sharp-murder-Coppers-common-sense-I-despair-old-force-took-8-days-body.html#ixzz23bTuHqJe

From 'The week' article above posted by Candyfloss.

quote
A few years ago, when I was writing an article about a homicide cop, I was called to New Addington where there had been a professional hit killing of a drug dealer recently released from prison. The victim's car tyres had been deflated, and when he came out to investigate, he was shot through the back of the head by a gunman who calmly walked away and (as far as I know) was never caught. This murder made no waves whatsoever, the implication being 'What does one expect in a low-life community?'

By contrast, Tia's death – highlighted by the community search for her when all the time her body was decomposing in her grandmother's loft – captured the national imagination, in part, one feels, because its awful circumstances stood in such contrast to the happy and triumphant Olympic Games taking place a few miles away across London. The good and the bad in contemporary British life could not have been more starkly underlined. Tia's suspected murder is as far from the Games feel-good factor as one could get.
unquote.

This imo, is one of these stupid simplifications of a social problem - reducing it to 'have and have-nots' and urging as usual that something should be done about this. Using the olympics as an argument is way below the belt and irrelevant. Lots of poor athletes or athletes who have worked to get where they want to be.

I don't know who said that the poor would always be with us, but that is a fact. So now the PM is responsible for the state of New Addington?
I posted earlier that a niece of mine lives in very similar housing. But it looks hugely different because the tenants keep the houses and gardens looking good. They do it because they want to. You cannot instill a sense of community in people who think the world owes them and nothing is ever their fault.

I would like to point out that the New Addington Housing is far removed from the miserable tower blocks in inner cities. Public transport is available and plenty of parks nearby. It's hardly a slum as the papers are trying to make out.
A few plants and a lick of paint here and there wouldn't go amiss, but that's not for the jobless - I could rant on forever, but whichever journalist wrote that piece is just perpetuating the myth of the poor and underprivileged.

This kind of socialism has taken away reason and accountability from the individual - so everything is always someone else's fault.

He drags up a case of a drug dealer being shot - seems to me that sort of risk goes with the job. Nothing to do with the area.

Rant is barely over - bot laptop and I are overheating - 25C inside...

I really don't think that we should tar the whole estate with the 'sink' title.One thing that I noticed when the helicopter shots were being shown was just how tidy some of the gardens did look. There was one, in the same row as Grandma's I believe where there back garden was paved with table and chairs so obviously a houseproud resident, and there were others with flowers and shrubs and children's slides and the like.
The Grandmas house on the other hand was scruffy and unkempt. Didn't Hazel say he had given Tia 10 pounds to help him with the garden?

A reporter on the news this morning said that SH was going to ask for bail but the judge would have to carefully consider this as he may flee.

Nothing about being concerned that he was so dangerous that he might murder someone else though.

Nina wrote:I really don't think that we should tar the whole estate with the 'sink' title.One thing that I noticed when the helicopter shots were being shown was just how tidy some of the gardens did look. There was one, in the same row as Grandma's I believe where there back garden was paved with table and chairs so obviously a houseproud resident, and there were others with flowers and shrubs and children's slides and the like.
The Grandmas house on the other hand was scruffy and unkempt. Didn't Hazel say he had given Tia 10 pounds to help him with the garden?

I used Street View to get an impression of the area.
I noticed a huge difference between the "old" part with the 30s/40s semi-detached houses and the "new" 60s part with the terraces.
The old part looks really inviting and clean.
The new part looks like the worst bit of estate in our area.
Even from the satellite views you can notice the difference. The new part looks cramped and the blocks of garages don't really enhance the impression.

Jule

admin wrote:A reporter on the news this morning said that SH was going to ask for bail but the judge would have to carefully consider this as he may flee.

Nothing about being concerned that he was so dangerous that he might murder someone else though.

Or might get slaughtered himself...what I think is very likely to happen.

Jule

martinbrunt‏@skymartinbrunt
#TiaSharp Stuart Hazell has top QC as defence lawyer ....Lord Alex Carlile.



Top defence lawyer Lord Carlile

The Sun Newspaper‏@TheSunNewspaper
Tia Sharp's step-grandfather under 24-hour watch after death threats from other inmates http://bit.ly/PbvaQm

Here we go, just as I tought:

Tia Sharp's step-grandfather is under 24-hour-watch in jail 'after death threats from other inmates'


Tia Sharp's accused murderer is being kept under 24-hour watch after prisoners have threatened to kill him, it is being claimed.

Stuart
Hazell, the 12-year-old's step-grandfather is in isolation in Belmarsh
Prison, in Woolwich, south east London, where some of the country's most
dangerous criminals are kept.
The Sun reported that the 37-year-old is being kept on a secure wing in the Category A prison alongside paedophiles and rapists.

Inmates are screaming death threats and calling his name from their cells, The Sun claimed.A spokesman from the Ministry of Justice refused to confirm which prison Hazell is being kept in.On Monday he appeared by video link at Camberwell Green Magistrates' Court, south east London.
He did not enter a plea and was remanded in custody.
Tia's
bruised body was eventually found on Friday at her grandmother
Christine Sharp's home in New Addington, Croydon - eight days after she
was reported missing and after police had searched the home on several
occasions.
Hazell is the boyfriend of Mrs Sharp,
46, who was arrested on suspicion of murder but bailed on Sunday
pending further inquiries, along with her next door neighbour Paul
Meehan, 39, who was bailed on suspicion of assisting an offender.

Detectives suspect the schoolgirl was probably smothered before her body was hidden in the attic.


A pathologist found no obvious major injuries to her body, leading to the theory that she was smothered or strangled.
An initial examination apparently uncovered
bruising on her lower body but forensic experts have been hampered by
the badly decomposed state of the corpse when it was finally recovered
from the sweltering roof space last Friday.
Although Tia had clearly been dead
for some time, officers have not been able to rule out that the
schoolgirl was alive when colleagues first visited the council house in
New Addington, near Croydon, South London, after she vanished a week
earlier.

Her father, Steve Carter, has demanded 'justice' for his little girl.

Mr Carter, 30, said: ‘I just want to get justice for my daughter, the proper way.

‘The
last time I saw Tia she jumped in my arms. She told me about her school
and what she was doing. She called me Dad. I’ll miss her for ever.’

A serious case review has been launched into the death of the little girl.

Serious
Case Reviews are carried out when a child has died to look at the role
played by local agencies in the life of that child and their family. The
review aims to find out if any lessons can be learned about ensuring
children’s safety.

Merton
Council, which has responsibility for Mitcham, where Tia had lived with
her mother Natalie, said it was 'standard procedure' to carry out a
review.

Chief executive Ged Curran said: 'Our thoughts and condolences go out to all those who knew Tia.

'The
local safeguarding children board will now commission a serious case
review, the standard procedure in a tragic case such as this. The review
will be assisted by the police, health services and local authorities.'



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2188608/Tia-Sharp-latest-Stuart-Hazell-24-hour-watch-jail-death-threats-inmates.html



Jule

Tom Bamber‏@Tommy_bomb
“@skymartinbrunt: #TiaSharp Stuart Hazell has top QC as defence lawyer ....Lord Alex Carlile.” how did he afford him? Legal aid?

If my memory serves me correctly, there is an entitlement for any person accused of murder to be defended by a QC.

I think this was discussed in the Joanna Yeates case.

I presume there is some kind of list of QC`s for this purpose.

Danny Shaw‏@DannyShawBBC
#tiasharp Lord Carlile says there's no bail application for Stuart Hazell today but may be at later stage

Danny Shaw‏@DannyShawBBC
#tiasharp Judge says hearing for Hazell to enter a plea on Nov 19. Provisional trial date Jan 21

Mods: Is it OK if I post a fictional dialogue about what may have happened in the aftermath of the murder? It isn't gratuitous and doesn't implicate anybody else except SH, as my belief is he was the only one involved. Should I just post and you can always delete? Let me know, thanks.