Re: Where would a body be hidden?

by Liz Eagles 15.02.14 10:11

Where would a body be hidden?

I'm not keen on this thread but I want to say that if someone wanted to hide a body in a country with "lawless hinterland" etc. the best place I could think of is a soak-away septic tank. I had one when I lived in Greece. Three huge concrete pipe thingies (I'm not a technical person can't you tell) into which all waste was directed, was broken down and soaked away into the olive grove. One man-hole cover (easily big enough for a body) which I was told to drop in the odd dead rat found in the garden to assist the process.

by Bishop Brennan 15.02.14 10:16

You are quite correct. To rule out the McCanns requires SY to ignore completely all the various signals from the cadaver dog, and indeed the video evidence of the mccanns answering questions about sedation.

It's an unusual method: ignore a large piece of potentially critical evidence, then construct a theory (disturbed burglars might steal a kid; random men seen in PDL might be a gang of child abductors) and then start looking for evidence to back it up. Maybe Redwood never went to detective school? Or was bottom of the class when he did?

by mysterion 15.02.14 10:18

Does anyone know what the formal procedures are for dog searches? Is it a blind test for the handler where he is not given any clues about the possible location of scent? So in this case, did the dogs scent all the apartments in random order? Did the handler already know that 5A was the scene of crime? I think that may have ben public knowledge at the time.

by Bishop Brennan 15.02.14 10:35

In reply to the main thread: If she died in 5a as the dog indicated, then the following is my theory: After discovery, Kate hugged Maddie for one last time and lay her cuddle cat on her. They read a passage from the bible as they wished her farewell.

Gerry then wrapped Maddie and placed her in the now lost blue tennis bag. The bag was put for a while in the cupboard while the apartment was cleaned. At some point he took the bag out the patio doors, put it down briefly to check the coast was clear and headed off.

He had no help and no car. The only option he has now is to find a walkable area of cliff, above a deep and inaccessible area of the sea. He knows the area from jogging and sets off on his grim task. Up on the cliff he adds several large boulders and stones to the bag, zips it up and offers a final prayer and apology to his daughter. With tears in his eyes, he throws the bag over the cliff and down into the deep sea below.

He returns to comfort his wife and to steel themselves for what would happen next.

by sami 15.02.14 10:41

Bishop Brennan wrote:You are quite correct. To rule out the McCanns requires SY to ignore completely all the various signals from the cadaver dog, and indeed the video evidence of the mccanns answering questions about sedation.

It's an unusual method: ignore a large piece of potentially critical evidence, then construct a theory (disturbed burglars might steal a kid; random men seen in PDL might be a gang of child abductors) and then start looking for evidence to back it up. Maybe Redwood never went to detective school? Or was bottom of the class when he did?

How do you know the dogs have been ignored ? Other than Redwood himself, nobody knows what he "thinks" or what he has chosen to ignore.

He's running an investigation, not taking part in a forum.

I'm not living in a bubble, oblivious to the past, present and future outside influences involved with this case. However, Redwood not appearing on CW wagging his tail and barking does not equal him throwing the file on the dogs in the bin.

Redwood has said little about anything throughout this saga. I would expect that of him, if he is doing his job correctly.

I've not heard him recite any constructed theory. I've heard him say that abduction was a possibility based on one reading of the evidence. Technically, I suppose, that is true, depending on which version you read.

The only constructed theories are those fed to the press by un-named close family sources with the objective of fooling the remaining gullible members of the public and indeed interfering with a police investigation, muddying the waters and in a roundabout way damaging Redwoods credibility. The damage to Amaral was up front and obvious. Perhaps this time the subtle approach is being taken.

I know nothing about Redwood but I don't envy the task put before him. I will believe he is competent until there is definitive evidence to show otherwise.

by mysterion 15.02.14 10:43

Wouldn`t there be a huge risk of the bag being washed ashore off the Atlantic waves which can be huge? Maybe that is what he PJ have found.

by DurhamGuy1967 15.02.14 10:47

Bishop Brennan wrote:In reply to the main thread: If she died in 5a as the dog indicated, then the following is my theory: After discovery, Kate hugged Maddie for one last time and lay her cuddle cat on her. They read a passage from the bible as they wished her farewell.

Gerry then wrapped Maddie and placed her in the now lost blue tennis bag. The bag was put for a while in the cupboard while the apartment was cleaned. At some point he took the bag out the patio doors, put it down briefly to check the coast was clear and headed off.

He had no help and no car. The only option he has now is to find a walkable area of cliff, above a deep and inaccessible area of the sea. He knows the area from jogging and sets off on his grim task. Up on the cliff he adds several large boulders and stones to the bag, zips it up and offers a final prayer and apology to his daughter. With tears in his eyes, he throws the bag over the cliff and down into the deep sea below.

He returns to comfort his wife and to steel themselves for what would happen next.

What is you view on the scent in the Scenic?

by Bishop Brennan 15.02.14 10:52

mysterion wrote:Wouldn`t there be a huge risk of the bag being washed ashore off the Atlantic waves which can be huge? Maybe that is what he PJ have found.

A risk for sure. He would have no idea what the currents might do. And no idea that the bag would even reach the water. It was a massive gamble but he had no other option. Many cliffs are above the deep ocean rather than being "beach side". I suspect this was his choice. No tide to worry about then.

If they had found it we would know by now. I suspect it never will be. In that sense if it's true, his gamble paid off.

As for the scenic. I believe that Gerry later realised he had to dispose of anything that Maddie had been in contact with. Probably all in a plastic bag. Maybe some cleaning materials and rags in there too. Touching it meant traces on his hand and car key. The bag was hidden in the tyre well, and at some stage dumped in a bin that would be emptied in due course. Kate's clothes were a major oversight. Big mistake.

by Guest 15.02.14 11:12

Bishop Brennan wrote:
mysterion wrote:Wouldn`t there be a huge risk of the bag being washed ashore off the Atlantic waves which can be huge? Maybe that is what he PJ have found.
bishop brennan

snipped

If they had found it we would know by now. I suspect it never will be. In that sense if it's true, his gamble paid off.

snipped

But would we necessarily know by now? Might a body already have been discovered but may the press and everyone else just not have been informed? Might that have been the new evidence which caused the Portuguese to reopen the case? And are things much further down the road with SY and the Portuguese maybe having carried out forensics etc and working out the next steps for prosecution?

by Guest 15.02.14 11:19

Bishop Brennan wrote:In reply to the main thread: If she died in 5a as the dog indicated, then the following is my theory: After discovery, Kate hugged Maddie for one last time and lay her cuddle cat on her. They read a passage from the bible as they wished her farewell.

Gerry then wrapped Maddie and placed her in the now lost blue tennis bag. The bag was put for a while in the cupboard while the apartment was cleaned. At some point he took the bag out the patio doors, put it down briefly to check the coast was clear and headed off.

He had no help and no car. The only option he has now is to find a walkable area of cliff, above a deep and inaccessible area of the sea. He knows the area from jogging and sets off on his grim task. Up on the cliff he adds several large boulders and stones to the bag, zips it up and offers a final prayer and apology to his daughter. With tears in his eyes, he throws the bag over the cliff and down into the deep sea below.

He returns to comfort his wife and to steel themselves for what would happen next.

Could be, but the risk of breaking a couple of limbs on the way to the sea would be huge, as would be the very real chance of the bag washing up on the shore. A decaying body even wrapped up and weighted down tends to float, always

by ultimaThule 15.02.14 11:22

Bishop Brennan wrote:In reply to the main thread: If she died in 5a as the dog indicated, then the following is my theory: After discovery, Kate hugged Maddie for one last time and lay her cuddle cat on her. They read a passage from the bible as they wished her farewell.

Gerry then wrapped Maddie and placed her in the now lost blue tennis bag. The bag was put for a while in the cupboard while the apartment was cleaned. At some point he took the bag out the patio doors, put it down briefly to check the coast was clear and headed off.

He had no help and no car. The only option he has now is to find a walkable area of cliff, above a deep and inaccessible area of the sea. He knows the area from jogging and sets off on his grim task. Up on the cliff he adds several large boulders and stones to the bag, zips it up and offers a final prayer and apology to his daughter. With tears in his eyes, he throws the bag over the cliff and down into the deep sea below.

He returns to comfort his wife and to steel themselves for what would happen next.

I'm intrigued, Bishop. When did Gerry throw Maddie off a cliff? Before or after the blue tennis bag was photographed by the PJ in the early hours of 4 May? If after, where was the body kept in the meantime? And why was no bible apparent in the aforementioned photographs taken by the PJ?

by mysterion 15.02.14 11:24

But would the body of 3 year old float. They are very small and don`t sports bags have vents?

by Bishop Brennan 15.02.14 11:53

ultimaThule wrote:
I'm intrigued, Bishop. When did Gerry throw Maddie off a cliff? Before or after the blue tennis bag was photographed by the PJ in the early hours of 4 May? If after, where was the body kept in the meantime? And why was no bible apparent in the aforementioned photographs taken by the PJ?

Ah. Yes. Good point! The bag vanished later. duh

Back to the drawing board then. It was quite good theory up till then. Same story could work on a later date, but I don't think so - I was aiming for one with no storing of body anywhere. Darn.

PS - The other snag is that the nearest deep water cliffside is probably in Sagres - a good 6 hour walk away...

by diatribe 15.02.14 12:53

Fossilfuel wrote:

Maybe there are posters here who would have more of an idea due to their past/present professions, ie PeterMac?

Maybe this guy might be better qualified than Peter big grin

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by Nina 15.02.14 13:12

aquila wrote:Where would a body be hidden?

I'm not keen on this thread but I want to say that if someone wanted to hide a body in a country with "lawless hinterland" etc. the best place I could think of is a soak-away septic tank. I had one when I lived in Greece. Three huge concrete pipe thingies (I'm not a technical person can't you tell) into which all waste was directed, was broken down and soaked away into the olive grove. One man-hole cover (easily big enough for a body) which I was told to drop in the odd dead rat found in the garden to assist the process.

We have exactly the same type of system Aquila. It was the step up from waste going into the prickly pear patch. And yes any dead rats or small animals go into it to assist the process. This system though will be in properties older than I think 10 years. Now in Spain for new properties they have to have the three compartment system.
I don't know if it is the same in Portugal but would think it is all Europe re this new three chamber system for new builds.
We had our system built 12 years ago and it has never required emptying and causes no smell at all. In fact apart from us knowing where it is no one else would know unless we told them.
I have always thought either a septic tank or a disused well being a very quick way of disposal. Certainly burial doesn't enter my head as the ground would have been too solid and a variety of implements would have been required.

by comperedna 15.02.14 13:20

Re Wikipedia and dog alerts higher up the thread - Of course you can't assume Wikipedia articles have any reliability if the subject is contentious. It is obvious that Team McCann will keep a close eye on the long article concerned and alter it to taste. Anyone can alter Wikipedia and it can be most useful on non-contentious subjects. What interested me was the way the key factor which must perturb the McCanns was dealt with. Yes, it was the fact that the dogs alerted in 5a and the hire car and that they did so several times and in no other flats in the block and at no other cars, that cannot be explained. IMNSHO to say that the handler did, or even could have, fixed this particular result is a nutter nonsense and I would have thought that Mr Grime would have been furious to have his good name as a professional discredited in this way.

by diatribe 15.02.14 13:22

aquila wrote:Where would a body be hidden?

I'm not keen on this thread but I want to say that if someone wanted to hide a body in a country with "lawless hinterland" etc. the best place I could think of is a soak-away septic tank. I had one when I lived in Greece. Three huge concrete pipe thingies (I'm not a technical person can't you tell) into which all waste was directed, was broken down and soaked away into the olive grove. One man-hole cover (easily big enough for a body) which I was told to drop in the odd dead rat found in the garden to assist the process.

This would fit into Dante's and my own theory that Madeleine's body was disposed of locally, as opposed to moved at a subsequent stage to further afield. Indeed it was Dante's suggestion that a buggy could have been utilised to convey the body a greater distance without arousing suspicion, which I still think is the most logical and plausible theory proposed thus far on this thread.

At the very least, its perhaps the best of the worst big grin

by mysterion 15.02.14 14:34

I just have a problem with the idea that anyone who accidentally killed a child would dispose of the body in such an inappropriate way. No problem with the idea in the case of murder. Completely different relationship with the victim.

by mysterion 15.02.14 14:52

Trying to put myself in the McCann situation. If the police had cadaver evidence in my holiday apartment and in a car I had hired, I would be very interested to know if the police had identified the deceased/s. Does anyone know if they have done so? Also have the PJ drawn a blank on their missing persons register.

by Casey5 15.02.14 14:54

Watching wrote:
Thank you Casey 5 for your reply. When were Eddie and Keela brought in? And how long would a dead body require to be in a particular place before the scent of same would be picked up by whichever dog is the one trained to do so? Depending on how long - Our burglar friends/the length of time they would have been in the apartment, if what is written is correct (that Andy Redwood believes that they simply intended to burgle the apartment, and accidentally disturbed Madeleine when carrying this out) could not possibly have killed and taken the child leaving 'the scent' which the dog (s) alerted to?

Do we take it that Redwood's 'statement' does not take into account the full information he has available to him,that he has 'chosen' to ignore this very important piece of information. the dog alerts, allowing then for an 'alive' Madeleine to have been taken by the burglars? Burglars taking Madeleine - ridiculous, but burglars seeing whoever may have done so - not so ridiculous. So what is Redwood playing at?

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The Eddie and Keela Searches/Videos

Watching, the above will answer most of your questions on the dogs.
Scotland Yard will surely not be able to ignore the findings of the dogs although the media seems happy to. Any statement relating to the dogs on any of the media comments pages that I have made is never published nor have I seen any comments by others about the dogs. The subject seems to be forbidden, I wonder why?

by diatribe 15.02.14 15:52

mysterion wrote:I just have a problem with the idea that anyone who accidentally killed a child would dispose of the body in such an inappropriate way. No problem with the idea in the case of murder. Completely different relationship with the victim.

Well, Mysterion, the definition of manslaughter is that there was no prior intent to kill. If it were an accident, whether the parents were present or not, it would not warrant disposing of the body. No sane minded person disposes of a body to make an accident appear to be a crime whether it be murder, manslaughter or for that matter, an abduction. The only logical explanation for disposing of a body is to prevent an autopsy from disclosing the cause of death.

I don't believe this was an accident in the normal interpretation, neither do I believe that the McCanns set out to deliberately murder their daughter which only leaves manslaughter. This left the McCanns with two choices (imo), either dispose of the body and fabricate a kidnapping, or contact the authorites and tell them they had inadvertently caused her death by drugging, striking, shaking etc. etc. (imo), Which ever option they chose, it wasn't going to bring their daughter back, so they were left in the unenviable position of being caught between the devil and the deep blue sea.

If they chose the latter, it would have almost certainly involved a stretch in a Portugese gaol, the end of their careers, the loss of their other two children, probable bankruptcy with the repossession of their home etc. etc. etc and they still would have lost their eldest daughter, in other words no amount of penance and wearing of horse hair shirts would have resulted in the reincarnation of Madeleine, so they chose the former option.( imo)

Although beyond the comprehension of most decent minded people, to a materialistic and ambitious couple such as the McCanns, it was the lesser of the two evils. I really think its as simple as that, they just got lucky and were given the initial benefit of the doubt by the Portugese police. Had the same situation occurred when vacating in Florida or Cornwall, they would now be incarcerated in either one of HM's or Uncle Sam's veritable institutions taking a doctrine in day time TV, as opposed to sitting on chat show couches fielding soft ball questions from ineffectual presenters.

by comperedna 15.02.14 16:17

... a very thoughtful posting, diatribe...

by diatribe 15.02.14 16:24

comperedna5 wrote:... a very thoughtful posting, diatribe...

Why thank you, kind sir big grin

by mysterion 15.02.14 18:04

Well Diatribe, I was just trying to draw a distinction between causing a child's death without prior intent (what I called accidentally killed) and causing a child`s death by intent (what I would call murder). In the first case, the parent wants the relationship not to end. In the second case the parent wants the relationship to end. I think that in the first case the parent would want a decent disposal out of a sense of love and/guilt. In the second case, the method of disposal doesn`t matter.

I entirely agree with your analysis. But in this case, I wouldn`t be surprised if the full story about what happened to MBM is different to the imaginings of all of us, if the truth ever comes out.

by Liz Eagles 15.02.14 18:10

Nina wrote:
aquila wrote:Where would a body be hidden?

I'm not keen on this thread but I want to say that if someone wanted to hide a body in a country with "lawless hinterland" etc. the best place I could think of is a soak-away septic tank. I had one when I lived in Greece. Three huge concrete pipe thingies (I'm not a technical person can't you tell) into which all waste was directed, was broken down and soaked away into the olive grove. One man-hole cover (easily big enough for a body) which I was told to drop in the odd dead rat found in the garden to assist the process.
We have exactly the same type of system Aquila. It was the step up from waste going into the prickly pear patch. And yes any dead rats or small animals go into it to assist the process. This system though will be in properties older than I think 10 years. Now in Spain for new properties they have to have the three compartment system.
I don't know if it is the same in Portugal but would think it is all Europe re this new three chamber system for new builds.
We had our system built 12 years ago and it has never required emptying and causes no smell at all. In fact apart from us knowing where it is no one else would know unless we told them.
I have always thought either a septic tank or a disused well being a very quick way of disposal. Certainly burial doesn't enter my head as the ground would have been too solid and a variety of implements would have been required.

Mine didn't need emptying either Nina, in fact I put a potted plant on the man-hole cover so it could be located. Very easy hiding place (temporary and/or permanent). Horrible thought.

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