The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™
Welcome to 'The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann' forum 🌹

Please log in, or register to view all the forums as some of them are 'members only', then settle in and help us get to the truth about what really happened to Madeleine Beth McCann.

When you register please do NOT use your email address for a username because everyone will be able to see it!

SMITHMAN 12: Can anyone who still believes that the Smiths saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine satisfactorily answer ANY of these 60 Questions ? - Page 4 Mm11

SMITHMAN 12: Can anyone who still believes that the Smiths saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine satisfactorily answer ANY of these 60 Questions ? - Page 4 Regist10

SMITHMAN 12: Can anyone who still believes that the Smiths saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine satisfactorily answer ANY of these 60 Questions ?

Page 4 of 7 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

SMITHMAN 12: Can anyone who still believes that the Smiths saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine satisfactorily answer ANY of these 60 Questions ? - Page 4 Empty Re: SMITHMAN 12: Can anyone who still believes that the Smiths saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine satisfactorily answer ANY of these 60 Questions ?

Post by Julie R on 23.03.18 10:00

"In my view this has more to do with the people who prepared  the two images than with the Smiths themselves."

I could not agree more. The investigators knew full well that the Smiths did not see the face clearly enough to produce e-fits. Yet they were asked to anyway, and we end up with two very different images... very clever. How can you confidently say from these images that it was Gerry McCann? You can't. Job done.  

(This, along with the press making up nonsense about the Smiths changing their mind about how certain they were = Smith sighting well and truly discredited.)

____________________
Jose Maria Batista Roque: “He found the parents to be nervous and anxious, he did not see any tears from either of them although they produced noises identical to crying."
Russell O'Brien: "if there was any foul play bestowed on them, this was the... the... the most powerful Oscar winning act you have ever seen." 
avatar
Julie R

Posts : 36
Activity : 60
Likes received : 24
Join date : 2017-12-13

Back to top Go down

SMITHMAN 12: Can anyone who still believes that the Smiths saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine satisfactorily answer ANY of these 60 Questions ? - Page 4 Empty Re: SMITHMAN 12: Can anyone who still believes that the Smiths saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine satisfactorily answer ANY of these 60 Questions ?

Post by polyenne on 23.03.18 10:02

The insertion of "Ella" into the timeline TWICE is a redflag IMO and another reason why I think she was used on the night of the 3/5.

I still don't believe that JT walked that route that night, I can't even be sure she ever left the table that night. When caught out, turn on the waterworks.......and sure enough............
avatar
polyenne

Posts : 963
Activity : 1574
Likes received : 589
Join date : 2017-03-31

Back to top Go down

SMITHMAN 12: Can anyone who still believes that the Smiths saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine satisfactorily answer ANY of these 60 Questions ? - Page 4 Empty Re: SMITHMAN 12: Can anyone who still believes that the Smiths saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine satisfactorily answer ANY of these 60 Questions ?

Post by Doug D on 23.03.18 11:02

Polyenne @#73
 
‘Consider this : if the abduction shout was planned to be earlier at 9.30am then Tannerman would fit the required timing. But Gerry met Jez at the time that Jane was (supposedly) walking up the road seeing the "abductor" and that screwed their plan.
So, after a hasty re-working, a new plan was an abduction shout at 10pm and this necessitated a new "abductor" movement. Hence the Smith sighting.’

 
In which case JT would have been told to forget about it.
 
Why would she later bring up mention of a ‘plan’ that had been changed?

I don't believe she can be completely stupid and it wouldn't have been written down by Russell on the sticker-book timeline if the plan had been changed.
avatar
Doug D

Posts : 3286
Activity : 4734
Likes received : 1194
Join date : 2013-12-03

Back to top Go down

SMITHMAN 12: Can anyone who still believes that the Smiths saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine satisfactorily answer ANY of these 60 Questions ? - Page 4 Empty Re: SMITHMAN 12: Can anyone who still believes that the Smiths saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine satisfactorily answer ANY of these 60 Questions ?

Post by polyenne on 23.03.18 11:37

Doug D

I theorize that other elements were already in place for the 9.30pm "shout" and that included ROB with Ella in the locale. So JT could not just forget about it.

If that is the case and ROB and Ella has to do a 2nd run to coincide with the 10pm "shout", they would have had to be seen in order for the "abduction" theory to hold water. And they were seen, by the Smiths (I accept there is some discrepancy in the description with ROB being taller and thinner but low light, fleeting glimpse ? Who can be sure ?)
avatar
polyenne

Posts : 963
Activity : 1574
Likes received : 589
Join date : 2017-03-31

Back to top Go down

SMITHMAN 12: Can anyone who still believes that the Smiths saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine satisfactorily answer ANY of these 60 Questions ? - Page 4 Empty Re: SMITHMAN 12: Can anyone who still believes that the Smiths saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine satisfactorily answer ANY of these 60 Questions ?

Post by Doug D on 23.03.18 11:53

Polyenne:
 
‘I theorize that other elements were already in place for the 9.30pm "shout" and that included ROB with Ella in the locale. So JT could not just forget about it.’
 
Still no valid reason for JT to ever say anything & could have just forgotten about the whole thing.
 
   
Even going by your theory that ROB was swanning around with Ella at the time, absolutely no reason for JT to come out with her fantasy. If she had blurted it out to Jez or someone at the time (9.15 – 9.30), maybe she would have had to go along with it, but she didn’t.
avatar
Doug D

Posts : 3286
Activity : 4734
Likes received : 1194
Join date : 2013-12-03

Back to top Go down

SMITHMAN 12: Can anyone who still believes that the Smiths saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine satisfactorily answer ANY of these 60 Questions ? - Page 4 Empty Re: SMITHMAN 12: Can anyone who still believes that the Smiths saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine satisfactorily answer ANY of these 60 Questions ?

Post by Julie R on 23.03.18 11:56

If it was the case that the Smith sighting was a planned "run" then Smithman was intended to be seen, and reported. In this case, it would have been rather frustrating that it wasn't reported straight away. It would have been (for want of a better phrase) one of the biggest "f**k ups on the planet! 

Not too sure myself but it's definitely worth considering..

____________________
Jose Maria Batista Roque: “He found the parents to be nervous and anxious, he did not see any tears from either of them although they produced noises identical to crying."
Russell O'Brien: "if there was any foul play bestowed on them, this was the... the... the most powerful Oscar winning act you have ever seen." 
avatar
Julie R

Posts : 36
Activity : 60
Likes received : 24
Join date : 2017-12-13

Back to top Go down

SMITHMAN 12: Can anyone who still believes that the Smiths saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine satisfactorily answer ANY of these 60 Questions ? - Page 4 Empty Re: SMITHMAN 12: Can anyone who still believes that the Smiths saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine satisfactorily answer ANY of these 60 Questions ?

Post by polyenne on 23.03.18 12:25



At 10.04 JT states that Jez & pram are "facing DOWN that way" but Jez was walking UP the street back to his apartment !

At 10.44 JT is well & truly done up like a kipper by Gerry and Dave Edgar does his best to placate her but her face says it all.

Due to post-production editing it is not possible to understand where the crying episode fits into the running order.

It is still my opinion that JT did not walk that route.
avatar
polyenne

Posts : 963
Activity : 1574
Likes received : 589
Join date : 2017-03-31

Back to top Go down

SMITHMAN 12: Can anyone who still believes that the Smiths saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine satisfactorily answer ANY of these 60 Questions ? - Page 4 Empty Re: SMITHMAN 12: Can anyone who still believes that the Smiths saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine satisfactorily answer ANY of these 60 Questions ?

Post by Verdi on 23.03.18 13:15

If Martin Smith and/or his family were involved in the production of the two e-fit images, if they agreed with representatives of Oakley International that the e-fits were a true likeness to the stranger they claim to have seen on the streets of Praia da Luz on the night of Thursday 3rd May 2007 - then whichever way you look at it, they (the Smith/s) are complicit in a grand plot to pervert the course of justice.

Before going into the realms of auto-defence on behalf of Martin Smith and his family, you need to ask exactly why he elected to assist a private detective employed by the McCanns to conjure up bogus e-fits (clearly in order to deceive), rather than offer his services to an official police force. More to the point, you need to ask why the Metropolitan Police took the Smith sighting on board, knowing full well it emanated through the auspices of the dubious Oakley International in collaboration with Martin Smith and/or family

Lest they forget (starting at 20:00 minutes)..



Watch e-DCI Andy Redwood's less than convincing explanation to wipe out Tannerman and then introduce the Smith sighting.  It's like a contemporary Keystone cops - nothing short of risible.

____________________
The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made" - Groucho Marx
Verdi
Verdi
Moderator/Researcher
Moderator/Researcher

Posts : 19220
Activity : 25784
Likes received : 5590
Join date : 2015-02-02

Back to top Go down

SMITHMAN 12: Can anyone who still believes that the Smiths saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine satisfactorily answer ANY of these 60 Questions ? - Page 4 Empty Re: SMITHMAN 12: Can anyone who still believes that the Smiths saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine satisfactorily answer ANY of these 60 Questions ?

Post by Baggy on 23.03.18 18:53

@Verdi wrote:If Martin Smith and/or his family were involved in the production of the two e-fit images, if they agreed with representatives of Oakley International that the e-fits were a true likeness to the stranger they claim to have seen on the streets of Praia da Luz on the night of Thursday 3rd May 2007 - then whichever way you look at it, they (the Smith/s) are complicit in a grand plot to pervert the course of justice.

Before going into the realms of auto-defence on behalf of Martin Smith and his family, you need to ask exactly why he elected to assist a private detective employed by the McCanns to conjure up bogus e-fits (clearly in order to deceive), rather than offer his services to an official police force.  More to the point, you need to ask why the Metropolitan Police took the Smith sighting on board, knowing full well it emanated through the auspices of the dubious Oakley International in collaboration with Martin Smith and/or family


I do not wish to become a chief apologist for or defender of the Smiths...I am genuinely interested in the responses to Tony's 60 questions, but it is important that the accusations against the Smiths  are reasonable. 

Why did they collaborate with a private detective force,  rather than offer their services to the official police ?  Well they had already approached the Irish Police, and had gone back to Portugal to assist Snr Amaral. Is there any evidence that they declined to assist the official police?? What were they supposed to do when approached by the private team... tell them to clear off or take out a restraining order ?  We don't know what they were told, but in any event they decided to co-operate. They had already been criticised for not reporting their sighting of Madeleine immediately. . At this stage they were damned if they did co-operate and damned if they didn't.

Either the whole thing was invented from the start, the Smiths were involved or became involved  in the entire conspiracy  and there never was a Smithman sighting,  or there was a real sighting and they did their best to contribute to a true likeness of the individual they saw. The fact of assisting  the private investigators from Oakley rather than the official police doesn't in itself indicate one way or the other.

How do we know that the E-fit images are 'bogus' and that the Smiths are therefore 'complicit in a grand plot'? The main problem with the E-fits is they appear to create confusion by depicting two different people. However I understand  it is normal practice to produce multiple drawings where there are multiple witnesses. One approach is to work from multiple images and then narrow this down. The fault lies with the investigators for not attempting to reconcile or prioritise the images at the time , and with the McCann team in respect of their website, and later the 'risible' Redwood and the Crimewatch production team  for deciding to publish the two images at the same time thereby creating confusion. Unless they have a history and wide experience of contributing to E-fits then  I can't see how this decision is down to the Smiths. 

As above, either the Smiths are complicit from the start and there never was a sighting (in which case it hardly matters what the E-fits look like) or there really was a sighting.  The appearance of the E-fits and the fact that a decision was taken, presumably not by them, to give publicity to both, doesn't indicate one way or the other.
avatar
Baggy

Posts : 14
Activity : 35
Likes received : 21
Join date : 2017-12-01
Location : Hertfordshire

Back to top Go down

SMITHMAN 12: Can anyone who still believes that the Smiths saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine satisfactorily answer ANY of these 60 Questions ? - Page 4 Empty Re: SMITHMAN 12: Can anyone who still believes that the Smiths saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine satisfactorily answer ANY of these 60 Questions ?

Post by Verdi on 23.03.18 21:43

@Baggy wrote:Why did they collaborate with a private detective force,  rather than offer their services to the official police ?  Well they had already approached the Irish Police, and had gone back to Portugal to assist Snr Amaral. Is there any evidence that they declined to assist the official police??

Reply: Martin Smith collaborated with Oakley International to produce an e-fit of the stranger they allegedly witnessed walking the streets on the night of 3rd May 2007.  If he was in earnest, he would have worked with an official police force to produce an artist impression/e-fit of the sighting.  If this had transpired, there would be no need for him to have collaborated with Oakley International, an organisation led by a renowned very shady character.

Martin Smith contacted the Irish police 23 days after Madeleine McCann allegedly disappeared, 22 days after they connected the stranger they claim to have seen in the street, with the disappearance of Madeleine.  Dr Amaral was made aware of this information and so arranged a secret return to Portugal by the Smiths  He returned to Portugal a) to provide information on the alleged sighting and b) to verify that the stranger he and his family witnessed was not Robert Murat.  

This information is evidenced by the PJ files.


What were they supposed to do when approached by the private team... tell them to clear off or take out a restraining order ?

Reply:  Yes, the most sensible route would be to tell Brian Kennedy and Oakley International to naff off.  If they were a little too persuasive, then report the incident to the police.

During the video interview with Clarence Mitchell I posted very recently, where he speaks of the Irish family sighting, Mitchell said ..  'their private investigators (Metodo3) will be very keen to talk to these witnesses'.  Say no more?


At this stage they were damned if they did co-operate and damned if they didn't.

Reply:  Not so.  There is no documented evidence to suggest they cooperated with the official police with the production of an artist impression/e-fit of the stranger they witnessed.

Either the whole thing was invented from the start, the Smiths were involved or became involved  in the entire conspiracy  and there never was a Smithman sighting,  or there was a real sighting and they did their best to contribute to a true likeness of the individual they saw.

Reply:  Astute observation.  There is no evidence to back the Smiths claim of witnessing a stranger walking the streets on Praia da Luz on the night of 3rd May any more than there is evidence of the stranger Jane Tanner claims to have seen.  The extraordinary thing is, the Smith family's description of the stranger bears a striking resemblance to that of Jane Tanner - right down to the child's bare feet.  I find it impossible to reconcile with the suggestion that both Jane Tanner and the Smith family saw the same person on that night, a suggestion I've seen in the past.

If Martin Smith and a member of his family worked with Oakley International to produce a likeness to the stranger they allegedly saw, why does this e-fit of two entirely different images differ so entirely from their, the Smiths, description contained in the files.  In short - it's not a true likeness to their description nor anything like Gerry McCann.


The fact of assisting  the private investigators from Oakley rather than the official police doesn't in itself indicate one way or the other.

Reply:  It does.  The PJ investigation was only archived, as with any unsolved case it would be re-opened if new evidence came to light + Operation Grange was ostensibly conducting an investigation at the time the Smith e-fit was produced, as shown on the 2013 Crimewatch Madeleine McCann Special.

How do we know that the E-fit images are 'bogus' and that the Smiths are therefore 'complicit in a grand plot'?

Reply:  I know by just looking at the e-fits that they are bogus.  Martin Smith and one of his family were complicit in the drawing-up of the e-fits, they do not accord with the description of the stranger as detailed by the Smiths and contained in the PJ files, nor do they resemble Gerry McCann in any way shape for form.

The main problem with the E-fits is they appear to create confusion by depicting two different people. However I understand  it is normal practice to produce multiple drawings where there are multiple witnesses. One approach is to work from multiple images and then narrow this down. The fault lies with the investigators for not attempting to reconcile or prioritise the images at the time , and with the McCann team in respect of their website, and later the 'risible' Redwood and the Crimewatch production team  for deciding to publish the two images at the same time thereby creating confusion. Unless they have a history and wide experience of contributing to E-fits then  I can't see how this decision is down to the Smiths.

Reply:  The e-fits publicised by Andy Redwood during the Crimewatch 2013 production, are undoubtedly two different people/images.  If you want the public to identify one person, you don't publicise more than one image of the person that is so totally different.   This is exactly what the McCanns themselves did when trying to fool the public as regards Madeleine's identity.


As above, either the Smiths are complicit from the start and there never was a sighting (in which case it hardly matters what the E-fits look like) or there really was a sighting.  The appearance of the E-fits and the fact that a decision was taken, presumably not by them, to give publicity to both, doesn't indicate one way or the other.

Reply:  It does, it's a whopping great red flag - it's a potentially explosive piece of evidence.  The most important aspect being ex-DCI Andy Redwood's extraordinary decision to publicise the e-fits during the Crimewatch production.  A professional renowned police force like the Metropolitan Police relying on a dubious private detective agency to interview a key witness and then using that piece of evidence to enhance their own investigation?  I don't think so!

____________________
The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made" - Groucho Marx
Verdi
Verdi
Moderator/Researcher
Moderator/Researcher

Posts : 19220
Activity : 25784
Likes received : 5590
Join date : 2015-02-02

Back to top Go down

SMITHMAN 12: Can anyone who still believes that the Smiths saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine satisfactorily answer ANY of these 60 Questions ? - Page 4 Empty Re: SMITHMAN 12: Can anyone who still believes that the Smiths saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine satisfactorily answer ANY of these 60 Questions ?

Post by Verdi on 23.03.18 23:53

@Baggy wrote:As for the argument advanced above that ex-pat communities are all the same and 'birds of a feather..' this seems to have no evidentiary value unless there is some specific evidence that these particular birds flocked together

Anyone who has lived abroad will tell you the same. Whatever the nationality the behaviour follows a pattern - even if you don't socialize with your own country folk, you know who's who. They use the same schools, the same doctors, the same dentists, they frequent the same bars, restaurants etc - this is not a pie in the sky theory, it's how it works in reality. Even builders, tradesmen, decorators are advertised as providing a standard to satisfy the specific clientele.

Visit any major city in the UK and you will find communities of immigrants that live in the same way.

In the absence of hard evidence, the police will work with circumstantial evidence. That's what this is - circumstantial evidence.

____________________
The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made" - Groucho Marx
Verdi
Verdi
Moderator/Researcher
Moderator/Researcher

Posts : 19220
Activity : 25784
Likes received : 5590
Join date : 2015-02-02

Back to top Go down

SMITHMAN 12: Can anyone who still believes that the Smiths saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine satisfactorily answer ANY of these 60 Questions ? - Page 4 Empty Re: SMITHMAN 12: Can anyone who still believes that the Smiths saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine satisfactorily answer ANY of these 60 Questions ?

Post by Phoebe on 24.03.18 0:08

The Smiths were not actual expats, they merely co-owned an apartment in P. de L which allowed them to go on holiday there a few times a year.  Their kids were in school in Drogheda not Portugal and I imagine their family G.P. and dentist (outside of  an emergency which might occur while on holiday) were also back home in Drogheda. They were not part of the typical expat community in the Algarve, merely frequent visitors who had bought a time share with another owner.
avatar
Phoebe

Posts : 1367
Activity : 3046
Likes received : 1659
Join date : 2017-03-01

Back to top Go down

SMITHMAN 12: Can anyone who still believes that the Smiths saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine satisfactorily answer ANY of these 60 Questions ? - Page 4 Empty Re: SMITHMAN 12: Can anyone who still believes that the Smiths saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine satisfactorily answer ANY of these 60 Questions ?

Post by Verdi on 24.03.18 0:09

I challenge anyone - anyone, to go out after dark in a dimly lit street where you're likely to pass a stranger, any old stranger will do.  Free your mind as you're not looking for anyone or anything in particular, you're just walking along minding your own business.  You look at the stranger in passing, for no other reason but the fact that he/she's there, the stranger is not doing anything or wearing anything strange is just an unknown person passing by.

Go home, do what you normally do, go to sleep and forget about the passing stranger until next day - there is no specific reason to think about the stranger, it was just a nobody (a bit like eggman and the Smith's e-fit) walking past you at night in a dimly lit street.

Next day bring the stranger back into your mind - can you honestly describe the approximate age, the height, the skin colour, the visage, the hair colour, the hair style, the clothing, the colour of the clothing.  Do you honestly remember anything at all other than passing a stranger, can you remember any detail about your stranger?

I doubt it!  

The Smith family however did remember quite accurate detail three weeks later.  Not only that but the three family members who gave witness statements on 26th May 2007, gave a very similar description of their stranger.  Not only that but the Smith family's descriptions were remarkably similar to that of Jane Tanner and her stranger in the night.

____________________
The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made" - Groucho Marx
Verdi
Verdi
Moderator/Researcher
Moderator/Researcher

Posts : 19220
Activity : 25784
Likes received : 5590
Join date : 2015-02-02

Back to top Go down

SMITHMAN 12: Can anyone who still believes that the Smiths saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine satisfactorily answer ANY of these 60 Questions ? - Page 4 Empty Re: SMITHMAN 12: Can anyone who still believes that the Smiths saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine satisfactorily answer ANY of these 60 Questions ?

Post by Verdi on 24.03.18 0:15

@Verdi wrote:Stands to reason anyway. A small community housing a large percentage of resident and regular visitors from other parts of Europe, everybody knows everybody - they make it their business, with naff all else to do with their idle days. Anybody who holidays abroad must have overheard those frequently used words .... 'thank god to find someone who speak English' or .... 'can you direct me to the nearest egg and baconry' or .... 'where is the boozer'.

Birds of a feather flock together

In context.

____________________
The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made" - Groucho Marx
Verdi
Verdi
Moderator/Researcher
Moderator/Researcher

Posts : 19220
Activity : 25784
Likes received : 5590
Join date : 2015-02-02

Back to top Go down

SMITHMAN 12: Can anyone who still believes that the Smiths saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine satisfactorily answer ANY of these 60 Questions ? - Page 4 Empty Re: SMITHMAN 12: Can anyone who still believes that the Smiths saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine satisfactorily answer ANY of these 60 Questions ?

Post by Baggy on 24.03.18 7:35

Verdi - I understand the commentary on ex-pat communities, and small communities in general. . I don't dispute that a number of the things you have stated as characteristics of these groups may be true, and indeed it is possible to draw inferences from this.  I wouldn't necessarily want to live in such a community myself. I imagine I would  find it restrictive and suffocating. . 

But those inferences surely need to be informed by some specific knowledge of the community in PDL. And there surely needs to be some evidence of collusion between the Smiths and Murat and/or the McCanns. Otherwise the generalisation could be applied to every single resident....... it feels like the equivalent of running into court and yelling "they are all in it together..that's just the kind of people they are'. 

Thank you for your detailed comments on my post - these are insightful  as always. I have a couple of questions which i will post shortly .. these are intended to elucidate rather than annoy.
avatar
Baggy

Posts : 14
Activity : 35
Likes received : 21
Join date : 2017-12-01
Location : Hertfordshire

Back to top Go down

SMITHMAN 12: Can anyone who still believes that the Smiths saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine satisfactorily answer ANY of these 60 Questions ? - Page 4 Empty Re: SMITHMAN 12: Can anyone who still believes that the Smiths saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine satisfactorily answer ANY of these 60 Questions ?

Post by Baggy on 24.03.18 8:05

Verdi - thx as above.

In relation to the Smiths agreeing to work with the private team rather than the police - is it known that they were ever asked by the official police to assist in the production of an E-fit and declined to do so? (My speculation would be that the PJ decided that the sighting was insufficiently clear to justify producing an E-fit).

In relation to  the quality of the E-Fits
- is the charge that they don't look like GM?? Whilst hardly a good likeness I've seen it suggested that they do.
- that they don't look like somebody else?? who??
- that they don't look like anyone? somebody thought they looked like the Podesta brothers
- that they look like two different people?? at this point we are looping - I believe Phoebe suggested above that if you ignore the chin area then there are common features. I agree with this. In any event I believe the publication of the two images to be the fault of the investigators rather than the witnesses (alleged!)

It would be helpful to have police input on the extent to which different witnesses produce different descriptions of the same sighting. My assumption is that this is far from unusual, but maybe it is.
avatar
Baggy

Posts : 14
Activity : 35
Likes received : 21
Join date : 2017-12-01
Location : Hertfordshire

Back to top Go down

SMITHMAN 12: Can anyone who still believes that the Smiths saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine satisfactorily answer ANY of these 60 Questions ? - Page 4 Empty Re: SMITHMAN 12: Can anyone who still believes that the Smiths saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine satisfactorily answer ANY of these 60 Questions ?

Post by Jill Havern on 24.03.18 9:21

@Verdi wrote:I challenge anyone - anyone, to go out after dark in a dimly lit street where you're likely to pass a stranger, any old stranger will do.  Free your mind as you're not looking for anyone or anything in particular, you're just walking along minding your own business.  You look at the stranger in passing, for no other reason but the fact that he/she's there, the stranger is not doing anything or wearing anything strange is just an unknown person passing by.

Go home, do what you normally do, go to sleep and forget about the passing stranger until next day - there is no specific reason to think about the stranger, it was just a nobody (a bit like eggman and the Smith's e-fit) walking past you at night in a dimly lit street.

Next day bring the stranger back into your mind - can you honestly describe the approximate age, the height, the skin colour, the visage, the hair colour, the hair style, the clothing, the colour of the clothing.  Do you honestly remember anything at all other than passing a stranger, can you remember any detail about your stranger?

I doubt it!  

The Smith family however did remember quite accurate detail three weeks later.  Not only that but the three family members who gave witness statements on 26th May 2007, gave a very similar description of their stranger.  Not only that but the Smith family's descriptions were remarkably similar to that of Jane Tanner and her stranger in the night.
I agree with that.

A few years ago I came home from work in the dark and as I was trying to open my front door two men came out of my side gate and walked down my driveway. One of them turned to look at me before both quickly walked out of sight.

I went through my side gate and discovered that the window of my utility room was smashed. By the time the police arrived all I could tell them was that they were two males, possibly in their 20's, wearing dark clothes and beanie hats (that should narrow it down a bit!). I wasn't able to tell them their race or describe anything about their facial features etc. Nothing. I couldn't even tell the police what they were carrying, even though one of them must have been carrying my laptop.

Weeks, months later my recollection of what I saw for a few seconds in the dark did not improve and I certainly would not have been able to help make an e-fit or two of their faces, even if my memory had been jogged by the image of a man walking down plane steps carrying a laptop in a 'just-done-a-successful-burglary' type manner.

____________________
PeterMac's FREE e-book
Gonçalo Amaral: The truth of the lie
NEW CMOMM & MMRG Blog
George Orwell, '1984': "If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever."
Jill Havern
Jill Havern
Chief Faffer
Chief Faffer

Posts : 18977
Activity : 30938
Likes received : 7237
Join date : 2009-11-25
Location : parallel universe

http://gerrymccan-abuseofpower-humanrights.blogspot.co.uk/

Back to top Go down

SMITHMAN 12: Can anyone who still believes that the Smiths saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine satisfactorily answer ANY of these 60 Questions ? - Page 4 Empty Re: SMITHMAN 12: Can anyone who still believes that the Smiths saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine satisfactorily answer ANY of these 60 Questions ?

Post by Jill Havern on 24.03.18 9:40

Wednesday, 21 March 2018



The Death of MancCannstein's Monster




Blacksmith Bureau: Comment from PeterMac:

Sensible one back on duty, though apart from the ad hominem abuse, the last was insightful.


In this one he says clearly
It’s all there in writing. For ever. A criminal conspiracy to mislead the police.***** It took six years for them to unravel it. But unravel it they have.


and later
But that doesn’t matter: the only aim of this elaborate television performance by Redwood was not to question Tanner’s eyewitness evidence or to build a case or to make an identification - that was already done - but to announce formally and definitively but without causing trouble for non-suspects, that the abductor, in the timescale and form claimed by her group,  does not  exist, end of story.  Any  court will accept that.


as we said at the time/.

Peter

____________________
PeterMac's FREE e-book
Gonçalo Amaral: The truth of the lie
NEW CMOMM & MMRG Blog
George Orwell, '1984': "If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever."
Jill Havern
Jill Havern
Chief Faffer
Chief Faffer

Posts : 18977
Activity : 30938
Likes received : 7237
Join date : 2009-11-25
Location : parallel universe

http://gerrymccan-abuseofpower-humanrights.blogspot.co.uk/

Back to top Go down

SMITHMAN 12: Can anyone who still believes that the Smiths saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine satisfactorily answer ANY of these 60 Questions ? - Page 4 Empty Re: SMITHMAN 12: Can anyone who still believes that the Smiths saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine satisfactorily answer ANY of these 60 Questions ?

Post by Julie R on 24.03.18 11:07

Verdi quote: "Before going into the realms of auto-defence on behalf of Martin Smith and his family, you need to ask exactly why he elected to assist a private detective employed by the McCanns to conjure up bogus e-fits (clearly in order to deceive), rather than offer his services to an official police force."


Forgive me, but I thought he agreed to assist the private detective because he was approached by them and asked to? Did the police approach them and ask? (genuine question - I honestly don't know)  My thoughts are that they would never have invited themselves to do e-fits to either police or detectives because they wanted to keep a low profile. Perhaps the detectives were very persuasive.. they did work for the McCanns after all. They were effectively Team McCann and I don't trust any of that shower!

____________________
Jose Maria Batista Roque: “He found the parents to be nervous and anxious, he did not see any tears from either of them although they produced noises identical to crying."
Russell O'Brien: "if there was any foul play bestowed on them, this was the... the... the most powerful Oscar winning act you have ever seen." 
avatar
Julie R

Posts : 36
Activity : 60
Likes received : 24
Join date : 2017-12-13

Back to top Go down

SMITHMAN 12: Can anyone who still believes that the Smiths saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine satisfactorily answer ANY of these 60 Questions ? - Page 4 Empty Re: SMITHMAN 12: Can anyone who still believes that the Smiths saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine satisfactorily answer ANY of these 60 Questions ?

Post by Verdi on 24.03.18 15:37

@Baggy wrote: I wouldn't necessarily want to live in such a community myself. I imagine I would find it restrictive and suffocating.

You don't need to live in their community or socialize with them, they are nonetheless there whether you like it or not. It's much like living in a village in the UK, you keep yourself to yourself but that doesn't stop the local gossips making your business their business.

You go to a local store, you can't help but acknowledge the storekeeper or assistant - unless of course you're pig ignorant. You're served in a bar or restaurant, you're polite to the staff - unless of course you're pig ignorant.

I've been acquainted with probably thousands of people over the years, I can't say I've been friends or socialized with them all but I can say I know them or are acquainted with them or even have worked with them. Still I wouldn't count them as personal friends/acquaintances.

Back to basics - did Robert Murat know Martin Smith? I think the odds are stacked in favour of a big yes! Besides, Martin Smith admitted he knew Robert Murat - that's all you really need to acknowledge.

How many times, where when and why is but window dressing, fact remains, by Martin Smith's own admission - they were acquainted!

____________________
The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made" - Groucho Marx
Verdi
Verdi
Moderator/Researcher
Moderator/Researcher

Posts : 19220
Activity : 25784
Likes received : 5590
Join date : 2015-02-02

Back to top Go down

SMITHMAN 12: Can anyone who still believes that the Smiths saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine satisfactorily answer ANY of these 60 Questions ? - Page 4 Empty Re: SMITHMAN 12: Can anyone who still believes that the Smiths saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine satisfactorily answer ANY of these 60 Questions ?

Post by Baggy on 24.03.18 16:01

In what way is being 'acquainted'..information freely provided to Snr Amaral  to explain how he was able to identify Robert Murat, evidence of Martin Smith's  participation in a criminal conspiracy to deceive?
avatar
Baggy

Posts : 14
Activity : 35
Likes received : 21
Join date : 2017-12-01
Location : Hertfordshire

Back to top Go down

SMITHMAN 12: Can anyone who still believes that the Smiths saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine satisfactorily answer ANY of these 60 Questions ? - Page 4 Empty Re: SMITHMAN 12: Can anyone who still believes that the Smiths saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine satisfactorily answer ANY of these 60 Questions ?

Post by Verdi on 24.03.18 16:05

@Baggy wrote:Verdi - thx as above.

In relation to the Smiths agreeing to work with the private team rather than the police - is it known that they were ever asked by the official police to assist in the production of an E-fit and declined to do so? (My speculation would be that the PJ decided that the sighting was insufficiently clear to justify producing an E-fit).

That's really not the point.  If the Smith family had potentially important evidence relative to a missing child, I would expect them (or anybody else) to make it their business.  You only need look at the gallery of 'suspects' in this case to see how many potential witnesses came forward with a description of the person they claim to have witnessed - some, like eggman, a complete joke.  Jane Tanner's stranger and the Smith family's stranger stand out over and above any other potential 'suspect'.  Both hoodwinked the PJ and both were used by ex-DCI Andy Redwood, ostensibly to enhance the Operation Grange seemingly illicit 'investigation'.

In relation to  the quality of the E-Fits
- is the charge that they don't look like GM?? Whilst hardly a good likeness I've seen it suggested that they do.

It's amazing what you can do given the urge.  Th e-fits have been likened to any number of people - even Redwood !!!

- that they don't look like somebody else?? who??

Don't understand your question.

- that they don't look like anyone? somebody thought they looked like the Podesta brothers

See above.

- that they look like two different people?? at this point we are looping - I believe Phoebe suggested above that if you ignore the chin area then there are common features. I agree with this. In any event I believe the publication of the two images to be the fault of the investigators rather than the witnesses (alleged!)

You can fiddle about with the two e-fits in order to morphe into one person as much as you like, fact remains side by side, as publicized by Redwood during the Crimewatch 2013 production, the two images are not of one man.


It would be helpful to have police input on the extent to which different witnesses produce different descriptions of the same sighting. My assumption is that this is far from unusual, but maybe it is.

No doubt witness descriptions of any one suspect vary.  There would be many factors drawn in before an e-fit could be produced - apart from that, just look at Jane Tanner's stranger, how he evolved over a period of time.  The salient point as regards the Smith family witnesses statements is the distinct similarity between their stranger description and as I said beforehand, the distinct similarity to that of Jane Tanner's stranger.

____________________
The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made" - Groucho Marx
Verdi
Verdi
Moderator/Researcher
Moderator/Researcher

Posts : 19220
Activity : 25784
Likes received : 5590
Join date : 2015-02-02

Back to top Go down

SMITHMAN 12: Can anyone who still believes that the Smiths saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine satisfactorily answer ANY of these 60 Questions ? - Page 4 Empty Re: SMITHMAN 12: Can anyone who still believes that the Smiths saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine satisfactorily answer ANY of these 60 Questions ?

Post by Verdi on 24.03.18 16:08

@Baggy wrote:In what way is being 'acquainted'..information freely provided to Snr Amaral  to explain how he was able to identify Robert Murat, evidence of Martin Smith's  participation in a criminal conspiracy to deceive?

This has all been covered extensively over the many Smithman threads on CMoMM.

____________________
The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made" - Groucho Marx
Verdi
Verdi
Moderator/Researcher
Moderator/Researcher

Posts : 19220
Activity : 25784
Likes received : 5590
Join date : 2015-02-02

Back to top Go down

SMITHMAN 12: Can anyone who still believes that the Smiths saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine satisfactorily answer ANY of these 60 Questions ? - Page 4 Empty Re: SMITHMAN 12: Can anyone who still believes that the Smiths saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine satisfactorily answer ANY of these 60 Questions ?

Post by willowthewisp on 24.03.18 16:23

Hi Verdi,I posted an article from a person named as Andy Wolf(Twitter) in the Operation Grange to continue after March 2018.

This article if taken in the context that it was written,and in light of the Smithman/Creche Dad scenario from 14th October 2013,DCI Andy Redwood,Crime Watch, Metropolitan Police force, would hasten to conclude the veracity of Crime Watch October 2013 Madeleine McCann special!
I cannot vouch for the article from Andy Wolf,but if you take what has been written to the words wrote it has sinister means to the Programme content?
willowthewisp
willowthewisp

Posts : 3393
Activity : 4911
Likes received : 1158
Join date : 2015-05-07

Back to top Go down

SMITHMAN 12: Can anyone who still believes that the Smiths saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine satisfactorily answer ANY of these 60 Questions ? - Page 4 Empty Re: SMITHMAN 12: Can anyone who still believes that the Smiths saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine satisfactorily answer ANY of these 60 Questions ?

Post by Phoebe on 24.03.18 17:27

@ Verdi  You stated in a post above about your own experience -


 "I've been acquainted with probably thousands of people over the years, I can't say I've been friends or socialized with them all but I can say I know them or are acquainted with them or even have worked with them. Still I wouldn't count them as personal friends/acquaintances"


Isn't this exactly the point some of us have been making about Martin Smith and Robert Murat!! 


Smith was "acquainted" with Murat - he knew what he looked like and what his name was and that he lived in P. de L.  yet Martin Smith, just like yourself, "could not say he'd been friends with or socialised with (him) but he can say he knows or is acquainted with Murat. Still he would not count Murat as a personal friend - acquaintance"


If what you wrote above is true for you why on earth can't it be true for Martin Smith. 
avatar
Phoebe

Posts : 1367
Activity : 3046
Likes received : 1659
Join date : 2017-03-01

Back to top Go down

Page 4 of 7 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum