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SMITHMAN 12: Can anyone who still believes that the Smiths saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine satisfactorily answer ANY of these 60 Questions ? - Page 3 Mm11

SMITHMAN 12: Can anyone who still believes that the Smiths saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine satisfactorily answer ANY of these 60 Questions ? - Page 3 Regist10

SMITHMAN 12: Can anyone who still believes that the Smiths saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine satisfactorily answer ANY of these 60 Questions ?

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Post by Verdi on 22.03.18 1:00

Local family may have seen missing Maddy Drogheda Independent

By Angela McCormick
Wednesday June 06 2007

A DROGHEDA family may have been the last people to see abducted four-year-old Madeleine McCann in Portugal.

The family is understood to have seen a child in the arms of a man on the night and at the time Madeleine was taken from her parents' apartments in Praia Da Luz.

They have reported the matter and recently gave statements to the Portuguese police.

The Portuguese police have asked the family not to speak to the press in case they compromise their investigations.

The family declined to give any details to the Drogheda Independent.

Portuguese police are convinced that the child, who vanished during a family holiday in the Algarve on May 3, was abducted.


A number of Drogheda-based families holiday in the nearby Estrela Da Luz apartments, part of a complex built by Drogheda man Gerry Fagan of Oceanico Developments.

'Estrela Da Luz is just around the corner from Praia Da Luz. Loads of Drogheda people go there. It is an absolute paradise,' said Jem O'Neill, a regular visitor.
----------


The report was published early June 2007.  As the visit to Portugal  was said to have been in secret, according to Gonçalo Amaral and as it was reported by the Smith family's local newspaper, such a potentially important piece of evidence, it makes you wonder who leaked the information to the Drogheda Independent.  Reading between the lines, it would appear the information came from the Smiths themselves  Ostensibly only the Smith family knew of the arrangement along with Snr Amaral and the PJ team - this could make their position even more tenuous.

Who knows - maybe the McCanns or one of their team did contact the Smith family after all.

Only 3 days later, on 9th June 2007, Gerry McCann made the following entry on his blog..

"Kate and I had a slightly busier day on the media front than expected. We did a short press interview for the Irish Sunday papers, mainly to thank the Irish for their fantastic level of support....

After returning from the beach we did the Irish version of Crimewatch-'Crimecall'. There are a lot of Irish tourists in and around Praia da Luz and although the awareness of Madeleine's disappearance in Ireland is extremely high, we want to ensure that everyone is aware of the appeal and we want the Irish public to come forward with photographs of people who they do not know who were in and around Praia da Luz in the 2 weeks leading up to the 3rd May. The address to upload photographs is: to www.madeleine.ceopupload.com. We have also asked for people to contact their local police if they have seen a man matching the description of the suspect carrying a child seen around the time of Madeleine’s abduction. He is 30-40 years, 1.70-1.80m (5'7"-11"), caucasian and was wearing a dark jacket, beige or mustard coloured trousers with dark shoes. No major news on the investigation front- we still believe it is just a single phone call away.

thinking

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Post by Phoebe on 22.03.18 1:17

Reading between the lines I would imagine that the gentleman quoted, Jem O'Neill, was the likely source for the local rag. The Smiths co-owned their apartment with a man named Liam O'Neill, possibly a relative. I imagine the Smiths, before they decided to report their sighting to the Gardai on May 16th, spoke freely about what they had seen to extended family, friends and the co-owner, especially when they began to wonder whether they should report what they had seen. After all, no one had sworn them to secrecy at that stage. In a small town like Drogheda that news would have spread like wildfire. I suspect the Smiths were convinced by others back home that what they had seen could be important  and they were encouraged to speak up. I see that the Smiths had enough cop on not to entertain the press (according to the reporter the family declined to give any comment when she approached them) but reported their sighting responsibly to the authorities.

Edited to add - I also imagine that upon their being requested to return to Portugal to make a statement the Smiths did not go into top -secret mode and hide from friends, neighbours and extended family where they were going and why. They had no reason to. For all they knew the P.J. would decide that what they had seen was unconnected. No one asked them to keep schtum at that stage and I imagine Aoife, like any normal kid of her age, told all her friends about how she was going to Portugal to help the police in this famous case.  They told their friends and parents, who told their friends and family and voila!  the word was out.Of course the local reporter picked up on the story and went fishing as soon as they returned.
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Post by Verdi on 22.03.18 1:27

From Gonçalo Amaral's book', The Truth of the Lie'..

At this time, images of Robert Murat - considered to be the main suspect - begin to be circulated all over the world. After they return to Ireland, the Smiths continue to follow the case. They learn that, according to Jane Tanner's statements, Murat is definitely the man encountered on the night of the abduction. Mr Smith then gets in touch with the Irish police to relate what he saw on the night of May 3rd. He insists, categorically, that the man they came across with the little girl in his arms was not Robert Murat. He is sure of it because he knows him. With hindsight, he is utterly convinced that the little girl was definitely Madeleine. We secretly organise for the Smiths to come to Portugal. On May 26th, in the offices of the Department of Criminal Investigation in Portimão, we interview the father and his son. What they say seems credible. However, because of the dim street lighting, they say they would have a hard time formally recognising the man who was carrying the child. On the other hand, they describe very clearly how the man was holding the little girl and how he was walking. That scene is indelibly printed in their memory. After their interview, they went back to the scene, accompanied by investigators. They indicate the precise place where they came across the man.

Their coming to Portugal as well as their statements are kept secret. Within a few days, they go back to Ireland, but contact is maintained: they undertake to let us have any further details they remember. We finally have credible witness statements about that stranger who, on the night of May 3rd, was walking in the streets of Vila da Luz with a child in his arms.

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Post by skyrocket on 22.03.18 9:30

Snr Amaral states in his book that the Smiths' visit back to Portugal and their subsequent statements were kept secret. But I wonder whether that means just from Joe public and the press (until the leak back in Drogheda 11 days later)? I suspect that the McCanns' info machine would have kept them informed in real time.

Coincidently or otherwise (and I haven't thought this through yet), the week prior to the Smiths gaving their statements in Portimao (morning of 26 May) the McCanns were battling behind the scenes, with the help of several phone calls from Gordon Brown to the Portuguese authorities, to have the Tannerman details released to the general public. On the night before (Friday 25 May) the Smiths gave their statements, the PJ held a press conference and Tannerman was released to the world.

Coincidently or otherwise, the battle for the release of Tannerman/Eggman is only reported to have started after the Smiths approached the Irish Police (and consequently the British Police in Portimao/the PJ) with their siting. I have been pondering (for a minute or two only) why the press conference wasn't held back a few days and both 'sitings' released together.

The Smith siting has to be one of the most mind-blowingly complicated scenarios (IMO). I don't believe for a nano second that GM was walking around the streets with Madeleine; I can't believe that a 12 year old child (Aoife) would be capable of sticking to such a lie so convincingly, so I do believe that she saw someone; I do believe that there is some reason that 10pm is a critical time point for the McCanns.

I believe that there was someone carrying a child at around 10pm. The chances of there being a father carrying a child with a striking resemblance (size; hair colour; clothing) to MBM within the right time frame and location (general area of 5A) and who hasn't come forward are, IMO, miniscule. Therefore, there has to be an alternative explanation and all I can come up with is a plant. For the plant to work there had to be a willing witness (singular).

It's easy to get carried away speculating the possible reasons but perhaps in the planning stages it was felt that Tannerman needed a backup. IMO, there also has to be a planned reason why Martin Smith later pointed a finger towards GM (who was sitting at the table at 10pm anyway, wasn't he). The McCann camp had to run with however the situation evolved and react on a day-to-day basis.

I still wonder whether many of the surrounding players drawn in to all this believed or were persuaded that there was some genuine altruistic grounds for helping. 
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Post by polyenne on 22.03.18 11:05

I believe that there was someone carrying a child at around 10pm. The chances of there being a father carrying a child with a striking resemblance (size; hair colour; clothing) to MBM within the right time frame and location (general area of 5A) and who hasn't come forward are, IMO, miniscule. Therefore, there has to be an alternative explanation and all I can come up with is a plant. For the plant to work there had to be a willing witness (singular).

It's easy to get carried away speculating the possible reasons but perhaps in the planning stages it was felt that Tannerman needed a backup. IMO, there also has to be a planned reason why Martin Smith later pointed a finger towards GM (who was sitting at the table at 10pm anyway, wasn't he). The McCann camp had to run with however the situation evolved and react on a day-to-day basis.

I still wonder whether many of the surrounding players drawn in to all this believed or were persuaded that there was some genuine altruistic grounds for helping. 


This is along the lines of a theory I put forward recently on another thread. I can't be sure that GM WAS at the table at 10pm, we only have the T7/T9 word for that, he was apparently back at 5A after Kate had run to the table, raised the alarm and returned.

If someone was carrying say, Ella through the streets. if stopped it would be very easy to say she was ill and needed some fresh air for example. It not being Madeleine, there wouldn't be a problem.

Or is this another of my blurred theories ?
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Post by Phoebe on 22.03.18 12:50

Although G.A. says in his book that the Smiths return to Portugal to give statements was kept quiet there, in some ways it would have been a case of shutting the stable door when that particular horse had already long bolted, which IMO, was why it was reported in Ireland 11 days later. The P.J. may have tried to keep the fact that the Smiths were returning under wraps in P de L, but I have no doubt that the news that they had seen something was well and truly out back in Drogheda. 
After returning to Drogheda the Smiths would have found friends, neighbours and extended family agog for first hand reports of what was going on in P de L. It was no secret that the Smiths had been there while it all went down and the case was the topic de jour everywhere. Later, while the Smiths pondered over the potential importance of what they had seen I'm sure this was discussed quite openly while they decided what to do about it. There was no reason it shouldn't be, no one had asked them to keep quiet at that stage. It would also have been difficult to prevent youngsters like Aoife and Tadhg from telling their peers in school about their potential involvement in such a famous event. Heck - many adults would have dined out on it! Aoife was back at school (it was term time) when it was arranged for them to return to P de L so that she could give her statement. I suspect her classmates and teachers were fully aware of where she had gone and why. Again, at this stage no one had urged them to keep it secret. In any case, it would have been too late for secrecy.
The fact that they had seen something of potential significance and  had been back to Portugal to give statements was public news in this country less than two weeks after they spoke to the P.J. The McCanns have umpteen relatives here who would have learned of this and passed the news to them. However, the McCanns made NO attempt to either speak directly with or to meet the Smiths, such potentially crucial witnesses. Instead, with maximum publicity for each trip, they hared off all over the world as far away from the Smiths as they could  possibly get. That tells its own story IMO.
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Post by Mark Willis on 22.03.18 13:09

Have I misremembered? 
But did the Smiths, as in, all of them, say they did not see Bundleman's face?
If so, how come TWO of the Smiths gave Exton the descriptions for his eFits?

Here's a snippet from
http://fytton.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/smiths-exton-sy-and-e-fits-part-two_4.html

"The e-fits were constructed by two different members of the Smith family 
Both depict the same man, namely the one they met on the evening of the 3rd of May carrying a child.
The e-fits were made after Henri Exton and his colleagues visited the Smiths in Ireland. 
Henri Exton stated that the Smiths were sincere, their e-fits a much better image of the possible abductor than the faceless image conjured up by Jane Tanner. 
The e-fits were done between 31st of January 2008 and the end of that year. They were submitted to the Leicestershire police who curiously did nothing with them. This was October 2009,  so that means nothing was done with them for at least a year. 
The McCanns stated that they also submitted them to  Operation Grange a few months after they started their review. "
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Post by Verdi on 22.03.18 16:12

@Mark Willis wrote:Have I misremembered?
But did the Smiths, as in, all of them, say they did not see Bundleman's face?
If so, how come TWO of the Smiths gave Exton the descriptions for his eFits?

1. As near as makes no odds. Two of the witnesses interviewed fomally said the lighting was too poor and a) that it is not possible for him to recognise the individual in person or by photograph and b) that it would not be possible to recognize the individual in person or via photograph. The third witness said at the time she saw his face but now cannot remember it.

2. Very good question!

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Post by Verdi on 22.03.18 16:16

This stands out for me. Martin Smith was recorded to have said of the bundleman..

He had an average build, a bit on the thin side.


I wouldn't say Gerry McCann is a bit on the thin side - he's built like a brick privvy.


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Post by Mark Willis on 22.03.18 17:04

@Verdi wrote:This stands out for me.  Martin Smith was recorded to have said of the bundleman..

He had an average build, a bit on the thin side.


I wouldn't say Gerry McCann is a bit on the thin side - he's built like a brick privvy.

He is of random and needless adipose visceral displacement.
That's me agreeing lol. m1264
Anyway, no further discourse required apropos eFit origin, I am satisfied my question has been answered.
I will now get back to my "who knew who" Venn Diagram of Smiths, Gerry and Murat, discreetly.
See how that pans out!  spin
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Post by Phoebe on 22.03.18 17:42

Both Aoife Smith's and Peter Smith's statements say they saw the man's face with Peter Smith noting that he was "Somewhat tanned as the result of sun exposure". Peter Smith also stated that when he saw him the man made no attempt to "hide his face or lower his look" We do not know what the other members of the family (who did not give personal statements to the P.J.) saw of his face. However, Mary Smith obviously saw enough to agree with her husband's later statement that the man they saw was very similar to Gerry.
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Post by Julie R on 22.03.18 20:01

@Verdi wrote:
@Mark Willis wrote:Have I misremembered?
But did the Smiths, as in, all of them, say they did not see Bundleman's face?
If so, how come TWO of the Smiths gave Exton the descriptions for his eFits?

1.  As near as makes no odds.  Two of the witnesses interviewed fomally said the lighting was too poor and a)  that it is not possible for him to recognise the individual in person or by photograph and b)  that it would not be possible to recognize the individual in person or via photograph.  The third witness said at the time she saw his face but now cannot remember it.

2.  Very good question!
How is it a very good question?

They gave descriptions because they were asked to by ex mi5 geezer - I doubt there was much scope for "no thanks I decline".

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Post by polyenne on 22.03.18 20:41

Gosh, this Smithman issue really has got the pack divided, hasn’t it ?

There are elements to it that I find make it very plausible (mainly the fact a number of them returned to Portugal seemingly willingly) and elements that I don’t (the fact that, in that low light, you can determine someone has recent tanning).

I still fall on the side of it being a true sighting of someone carrying a child. IMO, as a decoy on the abduction night. I can’t say who the carrier or child was.
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Post by Baggy on 22.03.18 21:22

Did I miss the 'significant evidence that Martin Smith knew Robert Murat much better than he is admitting' ? The question was asked a while back above, but does not appear to have been addressed. 

The quoted passage from The Truth of the Lie is hardly an admission - MS  volunteered the information to the Irish Police that he knew RM by sight and not just from the TV reports. We don't know that he told Snr Amaral any more than that in terms of his knowledge of Murat .. but whatever he said as the statement was volunteered  it is hardly an admission. (The MS statement would be meaningless without a certain level of knowledge.. ie 'I don't know him but it was not him..'would hardly make him a credible witness.) 

The inconsistencies quoted at question 9/60 may be indicative of deception, but equally they may not. Firstly because they come from multiple media sources over a  period of time...they may be multiple journalists using different words to describe broadly the same thing. Whether he says he met him once , twice or on several occasions, but sufficient to recognise him,  it speaks consistently  of something which is a low level acquaintance at best , and falls short of evidence of a friendship or association which would justify perjury by MS (and his family).

As for the argument advanced above that ex-pat communities are all the same and 'birds of a feather..' this seems to have no evidentiary value unless there is some specific evidence that these particular birds flocked together. The normal standards of evidence can't be cast aside to enable this generalisation to stand without some back-up evidence relating to these two individuals. 

So what is the 'significant evidence' that these two were friends or associates, in league together, and that one would perjure himself (and his family) on behalf of the other ??
is there evidence that they visited each other's residences?
were they known to eat together or drink together?
were they seen together in bars, restaurants or other public locations?
has anyone ever actually seen them speaking together for longer than the few seconds needed  to achieve the personal  introduction which was mentioned?
is there evidence that they ever communicated by letter, phone, email, text???
is there any evidence that they had an association which was facilitated by a third party ? (I am not ruling it out, but this one is harder to prove). 
has any independent witness come forward in 10 years, either from the ex-pat community in PDL or from the local Portuguese community to say that they knew of a different level of association between MS and RM than has been suggested by either party?

Any of the above could be regarded as 'significant evidence' which would influence me to disregard the Smith testimony. I assumed that someone had that level of evidence and was about to give it or refer to elsewhere on the site where it has been provided previously.
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Post by Verdi on 22.03.18 23:45

Cut to the chase, whether Martin Smith came across Robert Murat once or whether he came across him a thousand times, fact remains by his own admission, he knew Robert Murat well enough to be able to state categorically it was not he the family saw on the night of 3rd May.

Martin Smith called his local police after seeing the news that Robert Murat was a prime suspect in the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, this discourse is not on public record so It's not known what information Martin Smith gave to the Irish police, other than 'he told them everything he'd seen' - or words to that effect.

According to Goncalo Amaral..

At this time, images of Robert Murat - considered to be the main suspect - begin to be circulated all over the world. After they return to Ireland, the Smiths continue to follow the case. They learn that, according to Jane Tanner's statements, Murat is definitely the man encountered on the night of the abduction. Mr Smith then gets in touch with the Irish police to relate what he saw on the night of May 3rd. He insists, categorically, that the man they came across with the little girl in his arms was not Robert Murat. He is sure of it because he knows him. With hindsight, he is utterly convinced that the little girl was definitely Madeleine. We secretly organise for the Smiths to come to Portugal. On May 26th, in the offices of the Department of Criminal Investigation in Portimão, we interview the father and his son. What they say seems credible. However, because of the dim street lighting, they say they would have a hard time formally recognising the man who was carrying the child. On the other hand, they describe very clearly how the man was holding the little girl and how he was walking. That scene is indelibly printed in their memory. After their interview, they went back to the scene, accompanied by investigators. They indicate the precise place where they came across the man.

Their coming to Portugal as well as their statements are kept secret. Within a few days, they go back to Ireland, but contact is maintained: they undertake to let us have any further details they remember. We finally have credible witness statements about that stranger who, on the night of May 3rd, was walking in the streets of Vila da Luz with a child in his arms.

----------

Martin Smith witness statement

Regarding the description of the individual who carried the child he states that: he was Caucasian, around 175 to 180m in height. He appeared to be about 35/40 years old. He had an average build, a bit on the thin side. His hair was short, in a basic male cut, brown in colour. He cannot state if it was dark or lighter in tone. He did not wear glasses and had no beard or moustache. He did not notice any other relevant details partly due to the fact that the lighting was not very good.

— He was wearing cream or beige-coloured cloth trousers in a classic cut. He did not see his shoes. He did not notice the body clothing and cannot describe the colour or fashion of the same.

States that it is not possible for him to recognise the individual in person or by photograph.

Aoife Smith witness statement


The description below made about the man and the female child that the witness saw was made at around 22H00, when the lighting was weak.

— Questioned, states that probably she would not be able to recognise either the individual or the child.
Personal Description:

— (1) the individual was male, Caucasian, light-skinned, between 20/30 years of age, of normal physical build, around 1,70/1,75 metres in height. At the time she saw his face but now cannot remember it. She thinks that he had a clean-shaven face. She does not remember seeing tattoos, scars or earrings. She did not notice his ears. His hair was thick-ish, light brown in colour, short at the back (normal) and a bit longer on the top.

— His trousers were smooth "rights" along the legs, beige in colour, cotton fabric, thicker than linen, possibly with buttons, and without any other decoration.

— She did not see what he was wearing above his trousers as the child covered him almost completely at the top.

— She did not see what shoes he was wearing.

— The individual's gait was normal, between a fast walk and a run. He did not look tired, moving in a manner usual when one carries a child.

Peter Daniel Smith witness statement

The description of the individual who carried the child was: Caucasian, around 175 to 180 cm tall. About 35 years, or older. He was somewhat tanned as a result of sun exposure. Average build, in good shape. Short hair, brown in colour. He does not remember if he wore glasses, or had a beard or a moustache. He did not notice any other relevant details as the lighting was bad.

— He also does not remember the clothing the individual wore or his shoes. He states that he did not notice those details as his pregnant wife was somewhat ill and he was constantly attending to her, not caring about observation of the individual.

— States that it would not be possible to recognize the individual in person or via photograph.
----------

Come October 2013, the Crimewatch 2013 Madeleine McCann Special, the description given by Martin Smith and his son and daughter of the sighting, morphed into this..

SMITHMAN 12: Can anyone who still believes that the Smiths saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine satisfactorily answer ANY of these 60 Questions ? - Page 3 Two-e-fits-new-suspect-were-released-ahead-crimewatch-appeal

Spot the deliberate mistake!

According to Martin Smith, on the morning of 4th May 2007, his daughter telephoned him to tell of the missing child.  At this time he thought the stranger he and his family had witnessed the night before might have been the abductor carrying Madeleine.  His son Peter heard of the child abduction whilst at Faro airport on his way back to Ireland - beyond a shadow of doubt, it the statements are to be believed, the Smith family were aware of Madeleine's disappearance on the 4th May 2007, both in Ireland and in Portugual.

Still they wait until after Robert Murat is declared the prime suspect - over three weeks later and even then, only to exonerate Robert Murat.  I've yet to see a compelling argument to persuade me otherwise.

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Post by Basil with a brush on 23.03.18 0:09

@Verdi wrote:
According to Martin Smith, on the morning of 4th May 2007, his daughter telephoned him to tell of the missing child.  At this time he thought the stranger he and his family had witnessed the night before might have been the abductor carrying Madeleine.  His son Peter heard of the child abduction whilst at Faro airport on his way back to Ireland - beyond a shadow of doubt, it the statements are to be believed, the Smith family were aware of Madeleine's disappearance on the 4th May 2007, both in Ireland and in Portugual.

Still they wait until after Robert Murat is declared the prime suspect - over three weeks later and even then, only to exonerate Robert Murat.  I've yet to see a compelling argument to persuade me otherwise.

I think the timing is paramount with regards to how long it took them to speak up.


The tiniest piece of information you may possibly possess about a missing toddler.....is not something you hold onto. It just isn't. Well, not me anyway. Call me old fashioned again.

I don't think it's a genuine sighting based on this alone.


It would appear, this sighting may be beneficial to a number of people, but not to that of a missing little girl.

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Post by Phoebe on 23.03.18 0:10

"Spot the deliberate mistake" I'm afraid it eludes me. What I see are two e-fits - one rather grainy, the other much clearer and more life-like. The grainy one shows the full face whereas the more life-like, better coloured e-fit shows only part of the face with the jaws and jaw line not fully depicted. In fact in the latter e-fit, much more of the suspect's right cheek and jaw are shown than on the left corresponding side. Both efits show similar hair, eyes, eyebrows, mouths, ears and noses. The main difference is the amount of the lower face shown and the quality of the finish. Place a piece of paper or card just below the lower lip to block out what is shown below that on both pictures and the similarity between both e-fits is immediately apparent.
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Post by Verdi on 23.03.18 0:26

@Phoebe wrote:"Spot the deliberate mistake" I'm afraid it eludes me.

Come October 2013, the Crimewatch 2013 Madeleine McCann Special, the description given by Martin Smith and his son and daughter of the sighting, morphed into this..

SMITHMAN 12: Can anyone who still believes that the Smiths saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine satisfactorily answer ANY of these 60 Questions ? - Page 3 Two-e-fits-new-suspect-were-released-ahead-crimewatch-appeal


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Post by Phoebe on 23.03.18 1:00

@ Verdi. I don't know who the Smiths saw but I firmly believe that by September they had convinced themselves that it was Gerry. The press coverage had grown increasingly hostile toward the McCanns and they had just been made suspects in their daughter's disappearance and fled Portugal. Now, if I became convinced that I had seen Gerry McCann that night and was then asked to draw up an e-fit I would of course describe features which closely matched Gerry McCann. It was not difficult to know what he looked like. His mug was wall to wall coverage on T.V. and in newspapers! Let's not forget Richard McCluskey who became convinced that the blonde woman he had seen was none other than Kate McCann - despite the fact that this woman was jabbering away in fluent Portuguese! Humans are quite suggestible after all. Once the McCanns entered the frame as being responsible for Madeleine's disappearance it was, IMO, an understandable progression when the Smiths "remembered" seeing  Gerry. Whether they really did see him, or just someone who didn't look dramatically unlike him, I don't know but I believe the McCanns needed this claim like a hole in the head. They obviously could not provide concrete, independent proof that it could not have been Gerry so, instead they ignored the Smith sighting for as long as they could. How much of their memory that it was Gerry they saw is fact and how much is imagination or false memory is, for me, the 6 million dollar question.
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Post by Verdi on 23.03.18 1:52

If Martin Smith is to be believed, it was when he saw television footage of the McCanns descending the aircraft stairs that it dawned on him it was Gerry McCann he and his family saw on the streets of Praia da Luz on the night of Thursday 3rd May 2007.  Not by his appearance but by the way he was carrying a child - quite a normal way of carrying a child a far as I'm aware.  

This transpired on 9th September 2007 but again, it wasn't until 11 days later on 20th September 2007, that this revelation was recorded by the Irish police and sent  to Portugal.  Despite Smiths claim that he couldn't sleep at night, so distraught was he.  

Just prior to his removal from the case, Gonçalo Amaral the case coordinator, decided to arrange for the Smiths to return to Portugal to give further statements - this never transpired.

Firstly consider how detailed the description of the nocturnal rambler proffered by the Smith family was, over three weeks after the event.  A stranger passing in the night, not looking like a tourist yet carrying a scantily clad child.  A fleeting glance, a second or two, that's a remarkable recollection over 3 weeks after the event - and so similar to that of Jane Tanner. A coincidence too far for my reckoning. 

It takes a lot of believing - and I'm not believing.

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Post by jazega on 23.03.18 4:12

@polyenne wrote:I believe that there was someone carrying a child at around 10pm. The chances of there being a father carrying a child with a striking resemblance (size; hair colour; clothing) to MBM within the right time frame and location (general area of 5A) and who hasn't come forward are, IMO, miniscule. Therefore, there has to be an alternative explanation and all I can come up with is a plant. For the plant to work there had to be a willing witness (singular).

It's easy to get carried away speculating the possible reasons but perhaps in the planning stages it was felt that Tannerman needed a backup. IMO, there also has to be a planned reason why Martin Smith later pointed a finger towards GM (who was sitting at the table at 10pm anyway, wasn't he). The McCann camp had to run with however the situation evolved and react on a day-to-day basis.

I still wonder whether many of the surrounding players drawn in to all this believed or were persuaded that there was some genuine altruistic grounds for helping. 


This is along the lines of a theory I put forward recently on another thread. I can't be sure that GM WAS at the table at 10pm, we only have the T7/T9 word for that, he was apparently back at 5A after Kate had run to the table, raised the alarm and returned.

If someone was carrying say, Ella through the streets. if stopped it would be very easy to say she was ill and needed some fresh air for example. It not being Madeleine, there wouldn't be a problem.

Or is this another of my blurred theories ?

I am on the same wavelength,it would have given more credence to Jane Tanner,though Jez Wilkins put a spanner in the workings.IMO
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Post by Doug D on 23.03.18 8:10

Jazega:
 
‘it would have given more credence to Jane Tanner’
 
Really?
 
The ficticious ‘Tannerman’ seen (?) walking to the east away from the OC at 9.15 (and ‘identified’ by the bullshitter Redwood) doubles back past the OC and is then ‘seen’ again 45 minutes later walking south, a matter of a few hundred yards on the other side of the OC.
 
Maybe he decided to pop back to 5A for a coffee and to kill some time!
 
Sorry, but it’s all nonsense, as are the Smith’s statements and photofits, none of which stand up to scrutiny under cross-examination.
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Post by polyenne on 23.03.18 8:37

Doug D
Consider this : if the abduction shout was planned to be earlier at 9.30am then Tannerman would fit the required timing. But Gerry met Jez at the time that Jane was (supposedly) walking up the road seeing the "abductor" and that screwed their plan.
So, after a hasty re-working, a new plan was an abduction shout at 10pm and this necessitated a new "abductor" movement. Hence the Smith sighting.
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Post by Baggy on 23.03.18 9:09

@Phoebe wrote:Both efits show similar hair, eyes, eyebrows, mouths, ears and noses. The main difference is the amount of the lower face shown and the quality of the finish. Place a piece of paper or card just below the lower lip to block out what is shown below that on both pictures and the similarity between both e-fits is immediately apparent.

Thank you Phoebe... I had never attempted that exercise before, and I agree that if you cover up the chin then the two E-fits are much more consistent. 

Aren't these E-Fits put together by 'assembling' different parts of the face?? I am surprised (on purpose, incompetence?) that the people who prepared these E-fits didn't resolve this contradiction around the chin area before (belatedly) publishing  them ... either by further interviews with the witnesses, by deciding that one of the witnesses had the better view, or simply by softening the chin area. The most common reaction I have heard to the 2 E-fits is that they appear to be of two completely different people, casting further doubt on the report of the sighting, and the credibility of the testimony of the Smith family. In my view this has more to do with the people who prepared  the two images than with the Smiths themselves.
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Post by Jill Havern on 23.03.18 9:17

Wednesday, 21 March 2018


The Death of MancCannstein's Monster


 
 
SMITHMAN 12: Can anyone who still believes that the Smiths saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine satisfactorily answer ANY of these 60 Questions ? - Page 3 Frank%2B2

 
To sum up the deception: taking the three famous timelines chronologically, readers can see for themselves not only how a hearsay sighting of a person with a child was turned into a monster but exactly how the group, beginning with O' Brien, Gerry McCann and Payne* on the night of May 3, conspired  to make him the history and centre of the entire affair  by creating  a “slot” for him compatible with the Tanner abductor's  time of departure, all  with supposedly remembered suggestive (or at least "possible")  evidence ** – alas, no longer available once  the police had been called and the apartment trampled – of his presence. Doing so involved  them in altering and disguising  their real movements.
SMITHMAN 12: Can anyone who still believes that the Smiths saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine satisfactorily answer ANY of these 60 Questions ? - Page 3 Sniplist
 

Keep It Simple - It Is


Forget detailed and head-spinning analysis: that's what they always wanted you to look at and get confused by.***  Just keep it very simple, look at what they say they were doing in the first timeline, which takes about two minutes, watch them alter them in the second to create the slot and then look at the final typed timeline. All the timings have been changed progressively with one intention, initial estimates being replaced by ludicrous pseudo-exactitude to squeeze them in. In the third document, indeed,  which states that “all timings are approximate” the Oldfield movement has been shunted from 9-9.05 to 8.57 (!!!) PM and Gerry McCann is awarded a watch to look at as he supposedly leaves the bar for the apartment at, why, exactly 9.05.
It is, as both the PJ and Scotland Yard know, all in vain,  as is normally the case with criminal group lies. Reality – always in flux and movement – is too complex to be defeated by conspiracies. The result is like watching chimpanzees trying to operate a model railway. 

Crash!


As they discover while they struggle to get the invented story straight over the next four days. Either their timings make GM shoot away from Tapas station too soon or send him chugging off too late,  put him on a direct collision course with Oldfield or leave him gormlessly staring down at his daughter in bed with love in his heart  after she’s been snatched  or as the crazed monster is forcing his way in.
Or Oldfield has to be struck blind so he can’t see whether shutters are open or closed; or the unwelcome constraint of Wilkins’ presence at the gate  means that MancCenstein  must be seizing the child just as Tanner is watching him “hurry away” – unless  Tanner is held at a stop signal while the monster is kept circling a loop until released to move.

And Fail


The problems are endless and can never be resolved, despite Gerry McCann’s copious and timely urination and unconscious shiver at the prospect of the slavering monster he can sense behind the bedroom door - added by him and the ever-helpful Mitchell months later.****  And as for those suggestive little door movements and locked and unlocked gates that Manccanstein left behind him – oh, dear, oh dear, oh dear, if he didn’t exist any more than Mary Shelley’s creation, who in Christ's name moved them?
It’s all there in writing. For ever. A  criminal conspiracy to mislead the police.***** It took six years for them to unravel it. But unravel it they have.
__________________________________________________________________________________

"I Know What I Saw"


 
But now let’s turn to the monster’s unlikely origins on the twilit streets of Praia da Luz that night.
SMITHMAN 12: Can anyone who still believes that the Smiths saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine satisfactorily answer ANY of these 60 Questions ? - Page 3 Capture
 

All Too Human


Like most people we tend to be generous to the  wily  but seriously fragile Jane Tanner, never having suggested that she invented her sighting, quietly admiring of that stuff she spun to an aghast and bewildered PJ about the brutish Anglo-Saxons always leaving their children unsupervised - quite the cultural historian is Jane, at least when attempting to hang onto her child. And who can't  warm to a woman who confessed, Textusa,   that the thought of swinging with Gerry McCann, either on the top of a big round table, no doubt, or perhaps in an antique chaise d'amour, made her retch?
But let’s face it, and ignoring her naughty refusal to tell Leicester Police whether she identified Murat in the van that famous night or not, as an eyewitness she’s a fucking disaster.**

Show Business


With Operation Grange still running it cannot permit itself to give the full facts about its relationship with Tanner and the holidaymaker, for reasons we’ve given elsewhere. Full visibility will only come after the conclusion of the investigation. Thus, we’ll indulge nice Mr Redwood for his identification exercises  which are far more irregular than Amaral’s (and the Yard's) van episode ever was, will  never be brought into court  and which extend a great deal of slack to Tanner. We’ll accept also that, in order to gain  agreement or co-operation in the  exclusion exercise, he posed the  holiday-maker against a non-police, collective  late sketch, not against details exactly matching her police eyewitness evidence.
We’ll also have to accept various other liberties -  that the origin of the holidaymaker’s clothes is unknown, that what he was actually wearing is unknown, that whether he has been asked to grow hair etc. to the length it was in 2007 is unknown and, equally important, the time and direction of his presence is completely unknown.  
But that doesn’t matter: the only aim of this elaborate television performance by Redwood was not to question Tanner’s eyewitness evidence or to build a case or to make an identification - that was already done - but to announce formally and definitively but without causing trouble for non-suspects, that the abductor, in the timescale and form claimed by her group,  does not  exist, end of story.  Any  court will accept that.

So How Did She Do?


SMITHMAN 12: Can anyone who still believes that the Smiths saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine satisfactorily answer ANY of these 60 Questions ? - Page 3 Stream_img
 
Mr Redwood is one of those people whose richly Celtic  warmth and niceness  is likely - look at his eyes - to be a signal of something quite else  and when he's as nice on Crimewatch about how strikingly and wonderfully similar the holiday-maker' appearance  and M/S Tanner's versions are, then it's time to start looking for the open door before the cuffs come out.
The sub-text beneath the Carnish sweetness is, of course errors occur, of course it's easy to make mistakes, no, no, it doesn't mean your behaviour is questionable, nobody's going to think any the worse of you my dear, not at all my lovely, no, no, you are completely above suspicion of anything. Mistakes happen.
So here's the holidaymaker, around since 2013, though the McCann clique don't seem to be too keen on discussing him, do they?  The photograph of the man M/S Tanner saw. ***
 

SMITHMAN 12: Can anyone who still believes that the Smiths saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine satisfactorily answer ANY of these 60 Questions ? - Page 3 The%2Bman
 
Looks like a syrup-of-figs   on the top of his head, doesn't it?  Mr Redwood clearly doesn't want us to see too much of the real hair yet, does he?
 
But before we get onto objective metrics about such evidence can we say something from the heart? Look carefully at him.
 
And then look at this, an internet collation of some of the vile, stinking, filthy images  that the  McCann camp and its beshitted spokesman created, revelled in and thrust at us month after month, year after year as the truth of the world  until Grange finally stopped them diverting the investigation any longer. But that is only their world, the McCann world.  
 
SMITHMAN 12: Can anyone who still believes that the Smiths saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine satisfactorily answer ANY of these 60 Questions ? - Page 3 CrimeBoard
 
 
They could be inhabitants of another planet, couldn't they? And they are: created by the  disturbed and  fearful minds who, with the gift of free will, took the decision to enter it and be bound by it.   Then look back at the mild, inoffensive and thoroughly decent-looking human being that those criminals claim is the origin of their filth. No, the photograph shows an inhabitant of the real world, our world, not theirs,  the one they will never re-join.  They are now  in hell, of their own invention and their own actions. Just looking at their creations on the page makes one want to have a wash. Now, back to work.
 

Brilliant, fantastic, scrumpical likeness Jane. Arr!


JT to the police in 2007: He was dark-skinned.
The person she saw at twilight: He is light skinned. He is light-skinned! JT  accuracy score: 0/10.
 
JT: About 1.7M high.
Person: The Yard have provided no measuring marks. 0/0
 
JT: Aged 35-40. Slim build.
Person:  Six years on and he is clearly younger than 35-40. 5/10 + 9/10
 
JT:Very dark, thick hair, longer at the back.
Person: Darkish and wavy, textured not lank. Completely incompatible with the later non-police artist's version. Hair that will not lie flat at the back unless wet. Prominent sideburns. 5/10.
 
JT: Trousers linen type, straight, beige to golden. Adds 'the same as "corticine",' a cork-based, dark brown floor covering,   in colour.  
Person: Linen, beige. 10/10.
 
JT: Shoes dark, "classic type," with a slight heel.
Person: Brown. Unheeled. 5/10.
 
JT: Jacket a dark "Duffy"***** - not duffle - jacket. These are defined as extra-warm insulated kagools or anoraks. She adds that it was "not that thick".  
Person: A short blue-grey lightweight casual jacket or anorak. 1/10.
 
Additional or Overall qualities
 
JT: A hurried walk.
Person: Not known, no information provided. 0/0
 
JT: His clothes were somehow unusual.
Person: The clothes are bog-standard casual resort wear. 0/10
 
JT: He was "very warmly" dressed.
Person: He is wearing lightweight resort wear. 0/10
 
JT: Not a tourist. 0/10.
Person: A British tourist.
 
So , finally, in 2018, you have a good measure of how accurate and dependable Jane Tanner is as an eye-witness. Leaving completely aside that she then willingly joined the rest of the conspirators to turn this  minimal and misleading little blur - essentially a flash of pyjama'd  legs, a patch of beige at the bottom and black at the top, clouded completely by a set of (invalidated in the photo above) prior assumptions  - into a criminally misleading decoy that took six years to destroy, we have the verdict: utterly worthless.
 
As Amaral always suspected.

__________________________________________________________________________________

* together O Brien  rogatory, section 3.
**  evidence McCann police statements, Oldfield rogatory, Madeleine. 
*** confused by examples on almost every page of rogatory interviews, especially by the males. The confusion is so vast and spidery that the group, Payne particularly, cannot makes sense of  their own words, get completely lost  and the interviews come to temporary halts while the police attempt to retrieve the thread of meaning.
**** months later The disgraced and beshitten Mitchell's words were fed to the media on behalf of the McCann defence team when the pair  were safely back in the UK.  
***** A  criminal conspiracy to mislead the police The irrefutable evidence is in front of you, documented. The police were misled and the McCanns insisted to the PJ that they must make this phantom the focus of their efforts. Had they succeeded the police might still be looking for the dark-skinned, somewhat demonic,  foreigner today.

__________________________________________________________________________________

* made her retch Tanner rogatory (less colourfully). Supposed cultural history of leaving children alone in her police statements.
** she’s a fucking disaster. Look at her eyewitness statement again. Starting with "dark-skinned" and ending in "not a tourist".
*** photograph Crimewatch archive on net.
**** Tanner's words Both police statements and one reference to the bogus creation of the McCann camp (the hair)
***** Duffy definitions Google
http://blacksmithbureau.blogspot.co.uk/2018/03/the-death-of-manccannsteins-monster.html

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