Re: The Mystery of the Make-Up Photo - was it taken on the same day as the Last Photo?

by Verdi 12.12.16 22:45

Tony Bennett wrote:
Verdi wrote:DVID PATNE: "You know I, you know I did know the children very well, we'd all you know, met up many times before err you know I, you know again I'd be playing with Madeleine you know in the, err the play area err you know during that week, you know lifting her up, twizzing her round and everything, I knew her that well, you know, to do that, and as I say err she'd definitely know who I was and certainly, as I say, just to reinforce that she looked very happy."
OK, a short bit of statement analysis here:

1. Payne says "I'd [= I would] be playing with Madeleine...err in the play area that week...be lifting her up...be twizzing her round...and everything..."

2. He says: 'I would have, not 'I was...' or 'I did...' That is classic avoidance. If he was teling the truth, he would use those words, not 'I would have'.

3. Moreover he does not give ANY specifics about when he is supposed to have done all this playing around and twizzing. And of course there are no holiday snaps of Madeleine playing happily with Payne or the other adults or children, apart from the three on Saturday and the Last Photo (Sunday?).

4. Finally these is no mention of David Payne happily playing with Madeleine in Kate's book, 'madeleine'

He also said "I knew her that well..." - not I know her that well + "she'd (she would) definitely know who I was..." - not she would definitely know who I am. One minute he's placing Madeleine as a thing of the past and next he's placing himself as a thing of the past. Strikes me he has a problem with literacy - perhaps he was feeling a bit tense big grin

.

The scarcity of holiday photographs is forever perplexing. The emphasis is always put on digital cameras but as I think I've suggested in the past - could it possible they used mobile phones to take photographs?

Snipped from David Payne's rogatory interview..

"....Lily you know and Madeleine you know had met many times before and you know they were happy to be together err I can remember you know them holding hands and you know getting on the plane and we've got the video footage on the, you know on the err phone of that you know when Madeleine, you know, slipped and banged her leg...."

Eight "you knows" in that short paragraph - not bad eh?

by Verdi 14.12.16 20:51

Has there ever been any successful research into Dr. David Payne's background? Not necessarily professional but more a personal angle.

I've tried the forum search function but haven't found anything so far. There is a reason for my curiosity.

by Nina 14.12.16 21:28

Verdi wrote:Has there ever been any successful research into Dr. David Payne's background? Not necessarily professional but more a personal angle.

I've tried the forum search function but haven't found anything so far. There is a reason for my curiosity.

I know that a regular poster has had a lot of interaction with him in his professional capacity.
If she wishes to give more details I am sure she will.

by Pyrite 14.12.16 21:41

Nina wrote:
Verdi wrote:Has there ever been any successful research into Dr. David Payne's background? Not necessarily professional but more a personal angle.

I've tried the forum search function but haven't found anything so far. There is a reason for my curiosity.
I know that a regular poster has had a lot of interaction with him in his professional capacity.
If she wishes to give more details I am sure she will.

F.

by **Tony Bennett** 14.12.16 22:29

Verdi wrote:Has there ever been any successful research into Dr. David Payne's background? Not necessarily professional but more a personal angle.

I've tried the forum search function but haven't found anything so far. There is a reason for my curiosity.

There are some snippets in Kate's book.

On page 20 we read how, in 2000: "we had soon made friends, two of the closest being Fiona Webster and her partner David Pyne. I had first met Fiona in December 2000 in the staff coffee room at the Leicester General Intensive Care Unit, where we were both anaesthetic registrars...It didn't take me long to discover that she was my kind of person. We became such great mates that one of our consultant colleagues rather cheekily used to refer to us as Charlie's Angels.

On page 31 we read about the first four months of Madeleine's life:

"She cried for the best part of each day for the first four months of her life".

But then...

"We all went to Italy in September [2003] for David and Fiona's wedding and one night, for no obvious reason ,we put Madeleine down and she slept for a solid six hours..."

We get the third reference to the Paynes on page 42 where we read: "It was on New Year's Day 2007 that the idea of a spring holiday in Portugal was first raised. Fiona and David Payne, who had come over with their childen Lily and Scarlett to spend the day with us, were planning a week's break at a Mark Warner resort in the Algarve, probably with two other couples and their families, and they asked if we'd like to join them. We'd been away oith Fiona and David on several occasions and we'd always enjoyed ourselves. They favoured the same kind of holidays we did...preferring a reputable resort with good sports facilities...The other couples pencilled in for this trip were Russell O'Brien and Jane Tanner and Matt and Rachael Oldfied...in fact Gerry had worked in the past with both Russell and Matt and we knew them quite well, so we had no concerns about whether we'd all get along..."

by Verdi 14.12.16 22:56

Nina wrote:
Verdi wrote:Has there ever been any successful research into Dr. David Payne's background? Not necessarily professional but more a personal angle.

I've tried the forum search function but haven't found anything so far. There is a reason for my curiosity.
I know that a regular poster has had a lot of interaction with him in his professional capacity.
If she wishes to give more details I am sure she will.

I remember Hobs saying she encountered Dr Payne in a hospital environment but I suppose her contact with him was confined to medical care of her relative.

Although I wouldn't put it past her to surreptitiously get him to reveal information about himself big grin

!

by MayMuse 14.12.16 23:09

It was on New Year's Day 2007 that the idea of a spring holiday in Portugal was first raised. Fiona and David Payne, who had come over with their childen Lily and Scarlett to spend the day with us, were planning a week's break at a Mark Warner resort in the Algarve, probably with two other couples and their families, and they asked if we'd like to join them...

Slightly off topic but wasn't it lucky that Santa preemted that Christmas when Madeleine was gifted the useful and lovely pink travel backpack case and pink fleece she used for her holiday to Portugal

Airport video
https://youtu.be/t1oDCSByz0s

Christmas unwrapping at home
https://youtu.be/yqDabcN97eQ

Add note ... Amelie and Madeleine beautiful white angels in white matching pyjamas?

by Verdi 14.12.16 23:27

Tony Bennett wrote:
Verdi wrote:Has there ever been any successful research into Dr. David Payne's background? Not necessarily professional but more a personal angle.

I've tried the forum search function but haven't found anything so far. There is a reason for my curiosity.
There are some snippets in Kate's book.

On page 20 we read how, in 2000: "we had soon made friends, two of the closest being Fiona Webster and her partner David Pyne. I had first met Fiona in December 2000 in the staff coffee room at the Leicester General Intensive Care Unit, where we were both anaesthetic registrars...It didn't take me long to discover that she was my kind of person. We became such great mates that one of our consultant colleagues rather cheekily used to refer to us as Charlie's Angels.

On page 31 we read about the first four months of Madeleine's life:

"She cried for the best part of each day for the first four months of her life".

But then...

"We all went to Italy in September [2003] for David and Fiona's wedding and one night, for no obvious reason ,we put Madeleine down and she slept for a solid six hours..."

We get the third reference to the Paynes on page 42 where we read: "It was on New Year's Day 2007 that the idea of a spring holiday in Portugal was first raised. Fiona and David Payne, who had come over with their childen Lily and Scarlett to spend the day with us, were planning a week's break at a Mark Warner resort in the Algarve, probably with two other couples and their families, and they asked if we'd like to join them. We'd been away oith Fiona and David on several occasions and we'd always enjoyed ourselves. They favoured the same kind of holidays we did...preferring a reputable resort with good sports facilities...The other couples pencilled in for this trip were Russell O'Brien and Jane Tanner and Matt and Rachael Oldfied...in fact Gerry had worked in the past with both Russell and Matt and we knew them quite well, so we had no concerns about whether we'd all get along..."

Have to rush so just a quicky.

A while ago I mentioned the name of one Dr. Jason Payne-James, a specialist in forensic and legal medicine. Admittedly my initial interest was triggered by the name and the field of work with no other connection, so I'm hesitant to make too much of what is most likely insignificant.

About Dr. Jason Payne-James..

http://www.payne-james.co.uk/about/

It can be seen he has worked with the Home Office and the Metropolitan Police. It was claimed at some stage that the private forensic examination of the Renault Scenic hired by the McCann's in Portugal was commissioned by the Home Office.

Dr. Payne-James qualified in medicine in 1980 at the London Hospital Medical College and undertook additional postgraduate education to higher degree level at Cardiff Law School, the Department of Forensic Medicine & Science at the University of Glasgow and with the University of Ulster, Northern Ireland. Gerry McCann studied at the university of Glasgow from the late 1980's into the year 2000. He also spent time in Amsterdam as did Prof McCann.

I'm too easily distracted to make a decent researcher so my attempts here are very flimsy - possibly even conspiratorial roll

so I quite understand if people think I'm off with the fairies.

I believe I mentioned before, the telephone call made by David Payne on the night of 3rd May 2007, which he later said had something to do with his sister.

ETA:

McCann team tests car for traces of Madeleine

By Fiona Govan in Praia da Luz -20 Nov 2007

Last night it emerged that lawyers working for the couple had hired independent forensic scientists to examine the car, which had been kept in a garage of an Algarve holiday villa after they returned to the UK.

Brian Kennedy, the wealthy business man who is funding the McCann's own efforts to investigate their daughter's disappearance, confirmed the tests had taken place.

"We did our own tests on the hire car and found no traces of Madeleine," he said.

He said that the tests had been carried out by a team of independent Home Office accredited pathologists and were completely reliable.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1569964/McCann-team-tests-car-for-traces-of-Madeleine.html

by Verdi 15.12.16 0:20

David Payne's rogatory interview..

1485 "Do you recall me telling you about the London number, which you couldn't find in your phone''

Reply "Yes.'

1485 "That number actually transcribes back to the Crime Specialist Director in London.'

Reply "Mm.'

1485 "Did you contact them''

Reply "Err I did yes. My, err you know my sister err had been in contact with them and she was trying to do everything that she could knowing the, err, the difficulties that we were having out there so you know I did approach them just asking for advice but err I can't remember, I don't think I actually spoke to anyone there, but for some reason that wasn't carried forward.'

1485 "Yeah.'

Reply "But I mean, you know, just into the context of the conversation you know we're in a strange country, we've got no representeers we don't know what's going on, all hell's broken loose and you know to see whether you can do anything to help Madeleine come back, you know and that was the lines that we were taking.'

1485 "Do you remember who you spoke to''

Reply "I don't know.'

1485 "The call was made on the following day at twenty three thirteen, so that's late at night.'

Reply "Mm.'

1485 "You don't recollect anything else about the conversation that you had with that, was it you that made the call''

Reply "Err I, yeah I know that I got phone numbers from my sister which I did you know ring them but I can't remember making one late at night.'
----------

Sorry for going off topic.

by **Hobs** 15.12.16 0:55

"We all went to Italy in September [2003] for David and Fiona's wedding and one night, for no obvious reason ,we put Madeleine down and she slept for a solid six hours..."

Here we have sensitivity regarding Maddie sleeping.

The key phrase being "For no obvious reason"

Given her age and that they were on vacation,why was it a surprise she slept for a solid 6 hours?
Presumably she would have been excited and running around etc and like any toddler, tiring herself out to the extent that like any toddler she would sleep well.

Since, to the mccanns, her having a busy day at a wedding (presumably rather than being confined to a room/apartment/chair/buggy or other reason that prevented her from being active) was not an obvious reason for Maddie to have a good nights sleep, one has to wonder what obvious reasons were there that would cause Maddie to sleep solidly through the night, well 6 hours?

Since kate introduces the concept of reason as to Maddie sleeping one has to wonder if sedation was used to get Maddie to sleep.

It would be an obvious reason as to Maddie sleeping for a solid 6 hours.

There was no "obvious" reason which would provide for Maddie not being sedated that night since it was not required.

She was not sedated which would be the obvious reason for her to sleep so well, therefore it allows for there being "no obvious" reason.

On page 31 we read about the first four months of Madeleine's life:

"She cried for the best part of each day for the first four months of her life".

This would explain kate's obsession about the children sleeping.
It would also explain the sedation.

Kate could not cope with her children being normal, healthy children, doing what children do best.
Kate it seems needs to be in control at all times.
Everything has a time and a place and she could not cope if the order and routine was broken.

Children had to be asleep at a certain time to allow kate to have her me time, to feel in control again.
This would perhaps also explain why they had so much help from their families, even to them flying down for a couple of days.
it would also explain how the nursery girl ended up helping kate at home with the bathing, feeding etc.

Kate was overwhelmed, both physically and mentally.
Gerry was little to no help given his job and his personality.

I suspect it was getting to a stage where kate could not be trusted to be left alone to handle three toddlers.

If payne visited as claimed on the Thursday to check on kate, was it because gerry thought kate was coping badly, she was volatile towards Maddie as reported by several witnesses who claim they heard her shouting and screaming as if rowing with Maddie.
Gerry was doing his tennis and hanging with the men in the group, was she being left alone to handle the bedtime routine?

Was this when the children were moved to whichever apartment and then babysat by the missing adult from the group?

Was Maddie not with the rest of the children because of her behavior?
The adults allegedly checking always seem to check on Maddie and not the children?

Was Maddie sedated so as not to disturb the other children and to make sure she didn't wake and wander?
Clarence told us "If you put seven children together, you're going to have a far harder time getting them to sleep than three,"
There were eight children in the group so which one was missing?
I can only presume it was Maddie.

Personally, i believe Maddie died earlier in the week given that the apartment was almost forensically cleaned in that little evidence of Maddie was found in the apartment, let alone her and the twins.
Children are messy little buggers, especially toddlers.
The apartment should have been swarming with evidence of their presence, yet it wasn't.

The apartment was cleaned to remove evidence of what happened to Maddie, that she died there whether by accident or deliberately.
A cause of death that allowed blood evidence to be revealed in spots on the floor and wall behind the sofa.

This would suggest perhaps an accidental fall as a result of sedation, or perhaps suggestive of something more sinister, again involving sedation.

What tever the cause, Maddie could not be allowed to be autopsied.
The mccanns and the group as a whole would know that an autopsy would be performed as the death was not natural such as from a known prior medical condition.
Would the group accept such a cover up if only sedation was used, especially if their own children were not being sedated?
If they were being responsible adults, why would they acede to a coverup of manner of death, disposal and subsequent false police report?

Was something else going on that the group knew about and permitted to happen that would mean if they didn't help they would be implicated and the consequences severe?

by willowthewisp 15.12.16 12:44

Hi Hobs,are you sure Clarence claimed "Seven Children"and not Eight,"as you know all that has happened,can be explained in a reasoned manner",I'll bet it can eh,Clarence,"twitchy Sphincter time"?

by Verdi 15.12.16 23:11

Hobs wrote:
If payne visited as claimed on the Thursday to check on kate, was it because gerry thought kate was coping badly, she was volatile towards Maddie as reported by several witnesses who claim they heard her shouting and screaming as if rowing with Maddie.

David Payne's rogatory interview - April 2008

"Err I, as I say I'm not sure you know what happened to Matt and Russell at that particular moment but I remember then you know I went over to see err Gerry at the err you know tennis courts, just to see you know what was happening, and err decided that we'd, you know I'd come, come back to play tennis and err Gerry had asked me just to pop in and check everything was alright err with Kate or you know again I can't remember the exact reason whether he was just making sure it was alright that he could stay there and you know more time but you know he'd asked me to pop in....."

Yes, why would Gerry ask Dave 'the artful dodger' Payne to just 'pop in' and check everything was err alright with Kate - why him who up until then, apart from organizing the holiday, played a very low profile during the weeks frolics?

Not that I believe for a second that the visit took place. In my opinion it was yet another story line to place a living Madeleine at apartment 5a on the night of 3rd May 2007 in preparation for the fabricated abduction alert.

by willowthewisp 16.12.16 13:11

Verdi wrote:
Hobs wrote:
If payne visited as claimed on the Thursday to check on kate, was it because gerry thought kate was coping badly, she was volatile towards Maddie as reported by several witnesses who claim they heard her shouting and screaming as if rowing with Maddie.
David Payne's rogatory interview - April 2008

"Err I, as I say I'm not sure you know what happened to Matt and Russell at that particular moment but I remember then you know I went over to see err Gerry at the err you know tennis courts, just to see you know what was happening, and err decided that we'd, you know I'd come, come back to play tennis and err Gerry had asked me just to pop in and check everything was alright err with Kate or you know again I can't remember the exact reason whether he was just making sure it was alright that he could stay there and you know more time but you know he'd asked me to pop in....."

Yes, why would Gerry ask Dave 'the artful dodger' Payne to just 'pop in' and check everything was err alright with Kate - why him who up until then, apart from organizing the holiday, played a very low profile during the weeks frolics?

Not that I believe for a second that the visit took place. In my opinion it was yet another story line to place a living Madeleine at apartment 5a on the night of 3rd May 2007 in preparation for the fabricated abduction alert.

Hi Verdi, Re;David Payne ,tie in his contact with the UK police Unit in London 4 May 2007,assisted by his sister,then tie in Police statement 1485 Mesniha of what he could tell the Leicestershire Police Force in April 2008,but now is not the pertinent time Format,now that is what you could call top flight Policing?

by Verdi 16.12.16 15:59

willowthewisp wrote:Hi Verdi, Re;David Payne ,tie in his contact with the UK police Unit in London 4 May 2007,assisted by his sister,then tie in Police statement 1485 Mesniha of what he could tell the Leicestershire Police Force in April 2008,but now is not the pertinent time Format,now that is what you could call top flight Policing?

The Specialist Crime Directorate that he admits to telephoning, aided by his sister, has been merged with Central Operations to form a new Specialist Crime and Operations department. Metropolitan Police Assistant Commissioner, Mark Rowley, previously led the Directorate - now fronted by Cressida Dick (hmmm... no comment!).

Wikipedia entry describes the unit thus..

'The Directorate led national police agency with regard to specialist crime investigations such as e-crime, sex crimes (paedophile unit) or kidnappings, hostage taking and contract killings.'

Mark Rowley of course, has been involved with directing Operation Grange!

As an aside, the Specialist Crime and Operations department, in addition to it's many other areas of interest, happens to have responsibility for the Met. Police Dog Support Unit - ooops - bit of a conflict of interests there I think.

Ain't what you know it's who you know bignono

by Cmaryholmes 02.01.17 11:14

Does anyone else think that Madeleine is actually wearing mascara on the 'make up' photo? If she is then there is no way she put that on herself while playing with Mummy's cosmetics. Is she upright? Or lying down? If she is lying down, the photographer is virtually underneath her. Weird. Sorry if all this has already been addressed.

The Mystery of the Make-Up Photo - was it taken on the same day as the Last Photo? - Page 17 Mascar10

The Mystery of the Make-Up Photo - was it taken on the same day as the Last Photo? - Page 17 Mascar10

by **Tony Bennett** 02.01.17 11:42

Cmaryholmes wrote:Does anyone else think that Madeleine is actually wearing mascara on the 'make up' photo? If she is then there is no way she put that on herself while playing with Mummy's cosmetics. Is she upright? Or lying down? If she is lying down, the photographer is virtually underneath her. Weird. Sorry if all this has already been addressed.

@ Cmaryholmes

The point has been raised before, I am not sure that any conclusion was reached. Speaking personally, I can quite see from the image why someone might think that mascara has been applied. Maybe one of our resident photography experts will be along doon to advise.

The Mystery of the Make-Up Photo - was it taken on the same day as the Last Photo? - Page 17 Zzzzzz15

The Mystery of the Make-Up Photo - was it taken on the same day as the Last Photo? - Page 17 Zzzzzz15

Incidentally, even if the conclusion is that she HAS had mascara applied, we are still left with:

1 hair bead clearly applied by an adult
2 necklace clearly fixed in place by an adult
3 blue eye shadow unlikely to have been applied neatly by 3-year-old
4 lip stick unlikely to have been applied neatly by 3-year-old.

On the other matters you raise, I take the photo as I see it: Madeleine standing up, behind her on the right of picture, a yellow stucco wall, behind her on the left, what looks like the entrance to a doorway.

A SUMMARY OF WHERE WE ARE WITH THE MAKE-UP PHOTO:

A The original story from the McCanns about it being 'Maddie playing with Mummy's dressing-up box' is false

B There is every indication that the Make Up Photo was taken in Praia da Luz during the week the McCanns were there Apr/May 2007

C There are certain indications that it and the Last Photo may have been taken on the same day, namely Sunday 29 April 2007

D Unless you count the disputed and controversial Tennis Balls Photo, the Make Up Photo may be the true 'Last Photo' of Madeleine

E According to HideHo's research, the last credible and independent sighting of Madeleine - by Maria Seafim da Silva Espada - was also on Sunday 29 April 2007, at about 1.15pm that day.

by roz 02.01.17 13:57

I see, especially above the left eye, what looks like slight smudging possibly caused when you apply that super-liner type eye pencil.

by JRP 02.01.17 20:27

Tony Bennett wrote:
Cmaryholmes wrote:Does anyone else think that Madeleine is actually wearing mascara on the 'make up' photo? If she is then there is no way she put that on herself while playing with Mummy's cosmetics. Is she upright? Or lying down? If she is lying down, the photographer is virtually underneath her. Weird. Sorry if all this has already been addressed.
@ Cmaryholmes

The point has been raised before, I am not sure that any conclusion was reached. Speaking personally, I can quite see from the image why someone might think that mascara has been applied. Maybe one of our resident photography experts will be along doon to advise.

Incidentally, even if the conclusion is that she HAS had mascara applied, we are still left with:

1 hair bead clearly applied by an adult
2 necklace clearly fixed in place by an adult
3 blue eye shadow unlikely to have been applied neatly by 3-year-old
4 lip stick unlikely to have been applied neatly by 3-year-old.

On the other matters you raise, I take the photo as I see it: Madeleine standing up, behind her on the right of picture, a yellow stucco wall, behind her on the left, what looks like the entrance to a doorway.

A SUMMARY OF WHERE WE ARE WITH THE MAKE-UP PHOTO:

A The original story from the McCanns about it being 'Maddie playing with Mummy's dressing-up box' is false

B There is every indication that the Make Up Photo was taken in Praia da Luz during the week the McCanns were there Apr/May 2007

C There are certain indications that it and the Last Photo may have been taken on the same day, namely Sunday 29 April 2007

D Unless you count the disputed and controversial Tennis Balls Photo, the Make Up Photo may be the true 'Last Photo' of Madeleine

E According to HideHo's research, the last credible and independent sighting of Madeleine - by Maria Seafim da Silva Espada - was also on Sunday 29 April 2007, at about 1.15pm that day.

I believe it's possible that mascara has been applied along with eye shadow, (both by an adult) as the eye shape looks outlined by unnatural black.

I also think Madeleine is upright, more likely standing rather than sitting. If she was lying down her shoulders would be in a different position.

by MayMuse 02.01.17 21:29

I think she is standing and also think eyeliner and/or mascara has been applied... not sure about the shoulder position as that isn't clearly visible to me.

by joyce1938 02.01.17 22:35

It also appears the blueeyeshadow s also across topof her cheek ,strange placeto see it . She seems to be looking downslightly,with head in slight backward position . Did we discuss that it could be due to taking the photo from a video,or was that another picture? Joyce1938

by JRP 03.01.17 19:48

joyce1938 wrote:It also appears the blueeyeshadow s also across topof her cheek ,strange placeto see it . She seems to be looking downslightly,with head in slight backward position . Did we discuss that it could be due to taking the photo from a video,or was that another picture? Joyce1938

The blue eyeshadow on her cheek is visible on the youtube video, so it can't be caused by screen grabbing a still frame. It must have been there at the point of production.

by worriedmum 03.01.17 20:48

JRP wrote:
joyce1938 wrote:It also appears the blueeyeshadow s also across topof her cheek ,strange placeto see it . She seems to be looking downslightly,with head in slight backward position . Did we discuss that it could be due to taking the photo from a video,or was that another picture? Joyce1938

The blue eyeshadow on her cheek is visible on the youtube video, so it can't be caused by screen grabbing a still frame. It must have been there at the point of production.

That's why some earlier posters on this topic think it is photoshopped on to cover up other marks

by JRP 03.01.17 22:41

worriedmum wrote:
JRP wrote:
joyce1938 wrote:It also appears the blueeyeshadow s also across topof her cheek ,strange placeto see it . She seems to be looking downslightly,with head in slight backward position . Did we discuss that it could be due to taking the photo from a video,or was that another picture? Joyce1938

The blue eyeshadow on her cheek is visible on the youtube video, so it can't be caused by screen grabbing a still frame. It must have been there at the point of production.
That's why some earlier posters on this topic think it is photoshopped on to cover up other marks

Why not photoshop the area skin tone?

by **HiDeHo** 16.01.17 17:52

I'm not sure whether of interest but the 'baseboard' photo was on a video from May 9th 2007 in case anyone is checking the date it was released.

The Mystery of the Make-Up Photo - was it taken on the same day as the Last Photo? - Page 17 Paul_g10

The Mystery of the Make-Up Photo - was it taken on the same day as the Last Photo? - Page 17 Paul_g10

the ICE CREAM pic (whether photoshopped or not) was released on the ITV documentary 'Madeleine, one year on'

The Mystery of the Make-Up Photo - was it taken on the same day as the Last Photo? - Page 17 Maddie13

The Mystery of the Make-Up Photo - was it taken on the same day as the Last Photo? - Page 17 Maddie13

by **Tony Bennett** 21.01.17 16:03

HiDeHo wrote:The ICE CREAM pic (whether photoshopped or not) was released on the ITV documentary 'Madeleine, One Year On'

@ HideHo

I have been researching this photo once again in the light of your post. As you know, we debated this issue recently via 'pm' in an effort to get to the truth. The sticking-point for me was that I did NOT think that the Ice Cream Photo had been published before Jon Corner put the Ice Lolly Photo (along with the controversial Make Up Photo and Skirting Board Photo) on his two minute video in 2010 (3-year anniversary).

By the way, for anyone following this issue, these are the specific terms I am using:

'ICE LOLLY PHOTO' - Same picture as above, but WITHOUT the ice cream - see e.g. Jon Corner's video

'ICE CREAM PHOTO' - The picture above i.e. WITH ice cream cornet.

===============

Having looked into the main point of when the ICE CREAM PHOTO was published, I am prepared to concede that I was wrong and you were right.

However, please bear with me as I seek to shed a bit more light on the subject - and I have one or two more queries.

First, the image you have reproduced above, endorsed 'BringMaddyhome'.

Can you say what the source for that is, please? I ask because I do not think that image formed part of the ITV documentary that you mention.

By the way, the full title of that ITV doc (from May 2008) was: 'Madeleine: One Year On: The Campaign for Change'. However, try as I might, I cannot find one link to where it still exists on the net. Without that, I cannot be sure whether the ICE CREAM PHOTO did or did not appear in that 2008 documentary, though you may well be right. Do you have a link please?

The reason I am happy to concede your main point is that I have found a video, uploaded by 'bringmaddiehome100' (obviously a McCann-supporter), on 6 May 2009, which quite clearly predates the Corner film by a year.

It's titled: 'Madeleine - One Year On' and this is the link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMkLueseD_4

The ICE CREAM PHOTO is shown between 1 min 36 secs and 1 min 41 secs.

So let us compare these two photos:

ICE CREAM PHOTO - appears on video uploaded in May 2009

ICE LOLLY PHOTO (without ice cream cornet) - appears a year later on Jon Corner film.

Were I went wrong was that I thought that the Ice Cream Photo was a later forgery produced by some faker after the Jon Corner video.

Into the mix we must also consider that, as I showed elsewhere, the Ice Cream Photo was a forgery as a less-cropped image of it included a clearly-photoshopped left arm.

Thus would you agree with this sequence of events please? >>>

1. Original photo is the ICE LOLLY PHOTO

2. Sometime later, someone, somewhere, for whatever bizarre or sinister reason, has added an ice cream, turning it into the ICE CREAM PHOTO.

3. We know from the above video clip that the forged, ICE CREAM PHOTO was used as early as May 2009 - a year before the Corner video.

4. You say the ICE CREAM PHOTO was used in the 2008 'One Year On' documentary, but as yet we do not have proof of that -hopefully you can rectify that with a link or other evidence.

5. When Jon Corner made his video in 2010, he would have had both photos available to him - the original ICE LOLLY PHOTO, or the forged ICE CREAM PHOTO. He chose to use the original ICE LOLLY PHOTO i.e. WITHOUT the photoshopped arm and ice cream cornet.

Thus these questions arise:

A. When, and by whom, was the ice cream cornet shopped in?

B. When did it make its first public appearance - was it on the One Year On 2008 ITV documentary?

C. Were both the original ICE LOLLY PHOTO and the forged ICE CREAM PHOTO in the power, possession or control of the McCanns?

D If so, why would they ever allow the ICE CREAM PHOTO, with its photoshopped-in false arm and ice cream - to be used?

It does also raise the question of why Jon Corner ever released the controversial Make Up Photo. Was this a photo over which he - not the McCanns - had power, possession and control?

And then the $64,000-dollar question, why did he put it in his 2010 video?

The Mystery of the Make-Up Photo - was it taken on the same day as the Last Photo?