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The Mystery of the Make-Up Photo - was it taken on the same day as the Last Photo?

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Re: The Mystery of the Make-Up Photo - was it taken on the same day as the Last Photo?

Post by Verdi on 30.11.16 19:20

JohnyT wrote:Gerry on the bus.......maybe his wife said he had to do more with kids.....less sport etc......Result :- sarcastic comment about not here to enjoy himself. Sometimes people do swear in front of kids believing they won't pick up on it (that's not an excuse btw)
I've watched and listened to that video clip quite a few times and can genuinly say I can't understand what he said.  I do however think too much emphasis has been placed on a chance comment - if indeed he did say.. 'eff off I'm not here to enjoy myself'.
 
A few of the gang said that Gerry McCann is gregarious and a bit of a lad, I can imagine he would say something like that for effect, a sort of 'in' joke.  As for swearing in front of kids, it's not something I condone but I'm aware it's nothing unusual.  Just look at the diabolical language used by some on the television and internet, all there for kids to see and read.

Anyway, taking three small children on a foreign holiday is no picnic - unless one gets immense enjoyment out of 24/7 kid time and everything that goes with it, fat chance of an enjoyable adult friendly holiday!

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Re: The Mystery of the Make-Up Photo - was it taken on the same day as the Last Photo?

Post by skyrocket on 30.11.16 19:46

@TB

Re: you're inquiry about the quote 'uh huh'/'yes.daddy'.

It comes from a collection of video clips, courtesy of Fannie312 on Youtube. The specific clip starts at 51 seconds on the link below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpuK8ql-IPE

The xmas clip at 3.35 mins is heart wrenching.
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Re: The Mystery of the Make-Up Photo - was it taken on the same day as the Last Photo?

Post by Verdi on 01.12.16 0:41

MayMuse wrote:Exactly, that quote from Mr Corner always stuck in my mind , thanks for posting the fullness of it. 
howdy There for all to see, indelibly printed for eternity and so important as it would appear to be at the very soul of this whole sorry
affair.

How sad to know a three year old little girl was seen thus through the eyes and mind of a man, a close friend of the family - Uncle Jon.

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Re: The Mystery of the Make-Up Photo - was it taken on the same day as the Last Photo?

Post by Verdi on 01.12.16 0:56

skyrocket wrote:@TB

Re: you're inquiry about the quote 'uh huh'/'yes.daddy'.

It comes from a collection of video clips, courtesy of Fannie312 on Youtube. The specific clip starts at 51 seconds on the link below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpuK8ql-IPE

The xmas clip at 3.35 mins is heart wrenching.
A clearer version of the same clip is contained in Richard D. Hall's 'Embedded Confessions' video interview with Peter Hyatt..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slziMpXYjJo&t=34s

@ 38:09 minutes.

I do however think it only baby talk for the benefit of the video rather than Gerry McCann's notion of politesse.

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Re: The Mystery of the Make-Up Photo - was it taken on the same day as the Last Photo?

Post by Verdi on 01.12.16 1:09

Get'emGonçalo wrote:What 'high price' though?
I really meant living under a cloud of suspicion for the rest of their lives and the effect if will have on their families - above all else their remaining two children, the twins.

Frankly I'm astonished they didn't separate and/or emigrate years ago - but maybe they just don't care about public opinion.

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Re: The Mystery of the Make-Up Photo - was it taken on the same day as the Last Photo?

Post by Grande Finale on 01.12.16 3:26

Tony Bennett wrote:
Tony Bennett wrote:
Grande Finale wrote:Just a little photoshopping, mainly to remove the large pink plastic earings.
Doesn't look as weird now !

Goodness me, yes!  I had never ever spotted this.

And in all the time I'd been looking at and thinking about this weirdest of weird photos, I had never thought that these were plastic ears...
Having looked at this morning's comments - yes, I cannot see now why Grande Finale should have suggested Madeleine's ears were 'plastic earrings'.

Perhaps s/he wiil come along and explain the comment
Human head inclined 45degrees is VERY uncomfortable and you wouldn't see the eyes at all, so I chose approx half of that 22deg and constructed the following diagram. You will notice that the ear lobes are well above the jaw line (Green line).
The space between the ear lobe and jaw line would seem to be the correct distance to accomodate a large earing ! then the lowest part of the earing would be on the jawline.


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Re: The Mystery of the Make-Up Photo - was it taken on the same day as the Last Photo?

Post by Equity on 01.12.16 11:36

I managed to find a similar image of a girl wearing the same large pink plastic earrings in the shape of real ears!!!


I will try to track down where these are sold... could be on to something.

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Re: The Mystery of the Make-Up Photo - was it taken on the same day as the Last Photo?

Post by Verdi on 01.12.16 12:09

Equity wrote:I managed to find a similar image of a girl wearing the same large pink plastic earrings in the shape of real ears!!!


I will try to track down where these are sold... could be on to something.
An excellent find if I may say!  No more need be said on the subject thumbup .

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Re: The Mystery of the Make-Up Photo - was it taken on the same day as the Last Photo?

Post by Nina on 01.12.16 12:15

Surely Madeleine does have large lobes to her ears.

Browse through all these photographs and there a number which show large lobes.............

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=photographs+of+Madeleine+McCann&rlz=1C1CHBF_en-GBGB721GB721&espv=2&biw=1366&bih=662&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjEgd7H_NLQAhWlJ8AKHdHVB_AQsAQIIQ&dpr=1

In particular one where she has her hair pulled back, she is smiling love her, and wearing a red dress. Actuakky she has quite large ears.

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Re: The Mystery of the Make-Up Photo - was it taken on the same day as the Last Photo?

Post by MayMuse on 01.12.16 12:17

Verdi wrote:
Equity wrote:I managed to find a similar image of a girl wearing the same large pink plastic earrings in the shape of real ears!!!


I will try to track down where these are sold... could be on to something.
An excellent find if I may say!  No more need be said on the subject thumbup .
Really, sorry they look like real ears to me, what makes you think they are otherwise?

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Re: The Mystery of the Make-Up Photo - was it taken on the same day as the Last Photo?

Post by Verdi on 01.12.16 12:54

quite
MayMuse wrote:
Verdi wrote:
Equity wrote:I managed to find a similar image of a girl wearing the same large pink plastic earrings in the shape of real ears!!!


I will try to track down where these are sold... could be on to something.
An excellent find if I may say!  No more need be said on the subject thumbup .
Really, sorry they look like real ears to me, what makes you think they are otherwise?
That's because they are real ears!  I don't think otherwise - I was agreeing with Equity who I think (hope) was being frivolous, or even down right sarcastic.

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Re: The Mystery of the Make-Up Photo - was it taken on the same day as the Last Photo?

Post by Verdi on 01.12.16 12:57

Nina wrote:Surely Madeleine does have large lobes to her ears.

Browse through all these photographs and there a number which show large lobes.............

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=photographs+of+Madeleine+McCann&rlz=1C1CHBF_en-GBGB721GB721&espv=2&biw=1366&bih=662&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjEgd7H_NLQAhWlJ8AKHdHVB_AQsAQIIQ&dpr=1

In particular one where she has her hair pulled back, she is smiling love her, and wearing a red dress. Actuakky she has quite large ears.
This one with the cheesy grin is an excellent show of one ear..


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Re: The Mystery of the Make-Up Photo - was it taken on the same day as the Last Photo?

Post by MayMuse on 01.12.16 12:58

Verdi wrote:quite
MayMuse wrote:
Verdi wrote:
Equity wrote:I managed to find a similar image of a girl wearing the same large pink plastic earrings in the shape of real ears!!!


I will try to track down where these are sold... could be on to something.
An excellent find if I may say!  No more need be said on the subject thumbup .
Really, sorry they look like real ears to me, what makes you think they are otherwise?
That's because they are real ears!  I don't think otherwise - I was agreeing with Equity who I think (hope) was being frivolous, or even down right sarcastic.
Mmmmm too much "frivolity" in the search for truth for a missing little girl  nod

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Re: The Mystery of the Make-Up Photo - was it taken on the same day as the Last Photo?

Post by Equity on 01.12.16 13:25

No frivolity MayM - just pointing out the ridiculousness of the suggestion made by @GF that Madeleine's perfectly normal ears are really large pink plastic earrings - that (guess what) look like real ears.

Unfortunately this type of post is picked up on by McCann supporters to portray sceptics as a bunch of swivel eyed loons - and those not bothered to look any further - believe it.

.

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Re: The Mystery of the Make-Up Photo - was it taken on the same day as the Last Photo?

Post by Grande Finale on 01.12.16 20:48

OK although I have put up a diagram, which would apply in the majority of people
on looking at a photograph of GM's brother, it looks like it is a genetic inheritance.

Add that to the fact that you would never expect to see a 3 year old wearing full make-up
applied by an adult, plus the awkward pose, just increases my disgust that this group of
photographs was published in the first place !

Was it taken in Donegal or was it Praia da Luz ? I now think Tony B was right and it is the latter and could only have been taken at the begining of the holiday.
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Re: The Mystery of the Make-Up Photo - was it taken on the same day as the Last Photo?

Post by Tony Bennett on 01.12.16 22:04

Grande Finale wrote:Was it taken in Donegal or was it Praia da Luz ? I now think Tony B was right and it is the latter and could only have been taken at the beginning of the holiday.
@ Grande Finale    Thank you. As far as I can see that is much more than likely on all the evidence that we have - and no-one IIRC has offered a serious alternative.  And it is a sober conclusion which we all need to weigh up very carefully.  

You rather toyed with us by the teasing way in which you removed both Madeleine's ears and the blue eyeshadow, certainly displaying your photoshopping skills - and in the process causing me some embarrassment at my initial gullibiity.

I have been considering what you have said about angles.

Madeleine's ears being so low down on her face is a combination of:

1. Her head being tipped back at a considerable angle, and
2. The photographer holding the camera well below her head.

It has been posed. Madeleine looks motionless - not animated in the slightest.

I wonder if any other photos of her were taken at the same time.

If YES, then surely there would be much more natural one to choose from?

If NO, why was this one picture composed in such a bizzarre, even horrible, manner?

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Re: The Mystery of the Make-Up Photo - was it taken on the same day as the Last Photo?

Post by Verdi on 01.12.16 22:39

MayMuse wrote:Mmmmm too much "frivolity" in the search for truth for a missing little girl  nod
I'm forever grateful that I was gifted with a sense of humour - it's good for the soul and helps you through the face of adversity,  keeps you sane, lifts the spirit.  It also a gift  if you can laugh at yourself - never take life too seriously, it will take you down if you let it.

I don't believe anyone, at least not on this forum, is intending to be frivolous about the truth of a missing child.  If however someone or something leaves itself wide open to ridicule (that includes me by the way) then so be it - ridicule it is!

'All the world's a stage, And all the men and women merely players; They have their exits and their entrances.  One man in his time plays many parts, his acts being seven ages.....' 

As You Like It -William Shakespeare

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Re: The Mystery of the Make-Up Photo - was it taken on the same day as the Last Photo?

Post by Verdi on 02.12.16 23:59

Grande Finale wrote:Was it taken in Donegal or was it Praia da Luz ?
I'm at a total loss to understand why anyone would think the photograph may have been taken in Donegal.  OK, according to press reports the McCanns said the picture was taken not long before their trip to Portugal but the McCanns said quite a lot didn't they?  Even if there was an element of truth in what they said, why Donegal - why not Rothley or Liverpool or Glasgow or Skipton?

Or maybe Portugal - the ambiance of the photograph certainly has more of an Iberian flavour.

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Re: The Mystery of the Make-Up Photo - was it taken on the same day as the Last Photo?

Post by Tony Cadogan on 05.12.16 13:22

Tony Bennett wrote:
Tony Cadogan wrote:[PART SNIPPED]

Helpfully, Rex provide the resolution of the image in their possession as 2111 x 1583, and checking the specs of KM’s (“One of my photographs is known around the world…”) alleged camera, Canon PowerShot A620, at  https://www.cnet.com/uk/products/canon-powershot-a620/specs/ , one finds that Cannon A620 does not offer such a resolution natively (credit is partly due to ‘Peg’ at https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t12656-file-transfer-copy Wed Apr 27, 2016).

The Rex image has been manipulated therefore (KM’s camera, wrong resolution).

Whether the image of the child itself had been ‘Frankensteined’ is another matter.  
@ Tony Cadogan        Many thanks for the investigations you have done and presented here.

Can I clarify please what you mean by the bit in bold above.

Does it mean this: "This photo was definitely taken on a Canon A620 but has been edited in some way before being released to the public"?

If I have got this wrong, please correct what I've said.

Furthermore, how certain can we be (if at all), from the data you've provided, that this photo was definitely taken on a Canon A620?

Or do we not know what camera it was taken on?

Also, I take it there are no data available from the image on either:

(1) the date it was taken, or
(2) the date it was amended/edited.

I think I am also correct in saying that:

A. The three playground photos, clearly taken on the Saturday, are all in the PJ files, but

B. None of the three controversial photos of that week:
* Last Photo
* Make Up Photo (assuming it was that week)
* Tennis Balls Photo...
...are in the PJ files.

I am sorry for the delay in replying.

“Many thanks for the investigations you have done and presented here.”

You are too kind.

“Can I clarify please what you mean by the bit in bold above.

Does it mean this: "This photo was definitely taken on a Canon A620 but has been edited in some way before being released to the public"?

If I have got this wrong, please correct what I've said.”

At the time of writing, I had in mind the following Dr Martin Roberts’ conjecture in his ‘A Nightwear Job’ (I quote the whole paragraph to preserve the flavour of the context which is interesting enough to merit a separate discussion):

“In conclusion, the McCanns' 'official photograph', first exhibited on 7 May, appears to be that of a damp pair of pyjamas, too big to have been sensibly purchased for Madeleine's younger sister that Spring, and most certainly not the year before. The subject is set against dark blue upholstery of a type not present in any of the apartments occupied by the McCanns or their Tapas associates immediately after 3 May. Kate McCann has explained, over time, how she was alone in apartment 5A that morning, in the company of a damp pyjama top (having just washed it) and how, from that afternoon by all accounts, she 'couldn't bear to use the camera', an automatic device (Canon PowerShot A620) belonging to a product lineage with an unfortunate reputation for random focussing errors.”

When ‘A Nightwear Job’ was published, I checked the camera reference as well as I could and have been sufficiently satisfied ever since that Kate’s camera was A620. From what I recall, a photograph of a Canon PowerShot A620 on a table in 5A convinced me. With hindsight it could have been A610 in the photograph which is identical in appearance to A620. I do not have a link to the photograph but I should think I have a copy somewhere. For the purpose of my observations in the post you refer to, it matters not whether the camera on the table was A620 or A610 or a Canon at all.

“Furthermore, how certain can we be (if at all), from the data you've provided, that this photo was definitely taken on a Canon A620?”

I can not think of a reasonable argument against my presumption that, in 2007, anything but a compact 35mm digital camera could have been used by the McCanns. Therefore I say that the photograph under discussion was taken with such a camera.

The answer to the question as to what make and model the camera from which the make-up photograph originated would depend on whom one is inclined to believe (please see my reply to ’Doug D’ at https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t12958p325-the-mystery-of-the-make-up-photo-was-it-taken-on-the-same-day-as-the-last-photo#352651 )

“Or do we not know what camera it was taken on?”

We can not be certain unless we have access to the original image file, straight from the camera that is, or, better still, the camera itself and the image.

In view of the aforesaid, my answer is no, we don’t.

“Also, I take it there are no data available from the image on either:

(1) the date it was taken, or
(2) the date it was amended/edited.”

Such data could not be relied upon unless the image under examination came straight from the camera it had been captured with or its provenance/chain of custody was reliable.

“A. The three playground photos, clearly taken on the Saturday, are all in the PJ files,”

Yes.

but

B. None of the three controversial photos of that week:
* Last Photo
* Make Up Photo (assuming it was that week)
* Tennis Balls Photo...
...are in the PJ files.”

Correct, as far as I know.


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Re: The Mystery of the Make-Up Photo - was it taken on the same day as the Last Photo?

Post by Verdi on 11.12.16 20:43

Apologies for going of topic but I don't think this warrants a new thread nor resurrection of an old one.  It's been niggling me for a long time but I'm sure somebody can appease me without too much disruption.

At the time of the 2007 trip to Portugal, the Paynes children I believe were 11 and 27 months old.  I'm not much good at guessing ages - can someone confirm that the children in this image from the PJ files, said to be David Payne and his two daughters, could be the ages stated?  They look older to me - not wishing to stir up yet another conspiracy theory, I'm just wondering if they are his children and not one of the other friends.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GREYSCALE_SNAPS.htm

For some reason this image gives me the creeps, aside from the slightly Savile'esque look which is most likely the reflection of the palm tree sprouting from his head.

ETA:  The image was there - then it wasn't!

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Re: The Mystery of the Make-Up Photo - was it taken on the same day as the Last Photo?

Post by Nina on 11.12.16 21:01

Verdi wrote:Apologies for going of topic but I don't think this warrants a new thread nor resurrection of an old one.  It's been niggling me for a long time but I'm sure somebody can appease me without too much disruption.

At the time of the 2007 trip to Portugal, the Paynes children I believe were 11 and 27 months old.  I'm not much good at guessing ages - can someone confirm that the children in this image from the PJ files, said to be David Payne and his two daughters, could be the ages stated?  They look older to me - not wishing to stir up yet another conspiracy theory, I'm just wondering if they are his children and not one of the other friends.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GREYSCALE_SNAPS.htm

For some reason this image gives me the creeps, aside from the slightly Savile'esque look which is most likely the reflection of the palm tree sprouting from his head.

ETA:  The image was there - then it wasn't!
One is his own child and the other is the eldest of Jane Tanner. 
I cringe at these photographs as he is gripping a child that doesn't belong to him in a cringe worthy way in my opinion. All this squeezing and tickling and nervous giggles doesn't sit right with me at all.

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Re: The Mystery of the Make-Up Photo - was it taken on the same day as the Last Photo?

Post by Verdi on 11.12.16 23:17

Nina wrote:One is his own child and the other is the eldest of Jane Tanner. 
I cringe at these photographs as he is gripping a child that doesn't belong to him in a cringe worthy way in my opinion. All this squeezing and tickling and nervous giggles doesn't sit right with me at all.
Hmmm - just as I thought.  The idea of him being so 'hands on' (not so much what he's doing but how he's doing it) with his own children is to my mind a bit yucky but a child belonging to someone else, even a family member or close friend, sets off alarm bells.  He appears to be leering, it makes me shudder.

bignono

Where did the communal child bathing come in - was it fact or fiction, I can't remember.

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Re: The Mystery of the Make-Up Photo - was it taken on the same day as the Last Photo?

Post by Nina on 11.12.16 23:30

Verdi wrote:
Nina wrote:One is his own child and the other is the eldest of Jane Tanner. 
I cringe at these photographs as he is gripping a child that doesn't belong to him in a cringe worthy way in my opinion. All this squeezing and tickling and nervous giggles doesn't sit right with me at all.
Hmmm - just as I thought.  The idea of him being so 'hands on' (not so much what he's doing but how he's doing it) with his own children is to my mind a bit yucky but a child belonging to someone else, even a family member or close friend, sets off alarm bells.  He appears to be leering, it makes me shudder.

bignono

Where did the communal child bathing come in - was it fact or fiction, I can't remember.
According to the Gasper statements on the holiday they shared with the  Paynes it was a fact. I remember him, David Payne, also saying  that Madeline would plead 'play monsters' all giddy and chasing and what happens when the monster catches? 
I am told by a friend  who works in child protection that  such games are a means of making children hyper  and mixing games with abuse is common. As is dressing up.

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Re: The Mystery of the Make-Up Photo - was it taken on the same day as the Last Photo?

Post by Verdi on 12.12.16 12:07

?
Nina wrote:
Verdi wrote:
Nina wrote:One is his own child and the other is the eldest of Jane Tanner. 
I cringe at these photographs as he is gripping a child that doesn't belong to him in a cringe worthy way in my opinion. All this squeezing and tickling and nervous giggles doesn't sit right with me at all.
Hmmm - just as I thought.  The idea of him being so 'hands on' (not so much what he's doing but how he's doing it) with his own children is to my mind a bit yucky but a child belonging to someone else, even a family member or close friend, sets off alarm bells.  He appears to be leering, it makes me shudder.

bignono

Where did the communal child bathing come in - was it fact or fiction, I can't remember.
According to the Gasper statements on the holiday they shared with the  Paynes it was a fact. I remember him, David Payne, also saying  that Madeline would plead 'play monsters' all giddy and chasing and what happens when the monster catches? 
I am told by a friend  who works in child protection that  such games are a means of making children hyper  and mixing games with abuse is common. As is dressing up.
Ah yes of course - the Gaspar statements, thanks for the reminder.

Now you mention it, I too recall D. Payne talking of playing monster games - wasn't that the same occasion as when he was twizzling?

ETA:  Uh-ho - just realised, the twizzing caper was mentioned by David Payne during his rogatory interview when speaking of his alleged visit to the McCann apartment on the night of 3rd May.  I quote..

"Err oh yeah, you know I'm very sure that if you'd have asked them, you know that evening or the next day they'd all say ah yeah, I popped in.

You know I, you know I did know the children very well, we'd all you know, met up many times before err you know I, you know again I'd be playing with Madeleine you know in the, err the play area err you know during that week, you know lifting her up, twizzing her round and everything, I knew her that well, you know, to do that, and as I say err she'd definitely know who I was and certainly, as I say, just to reinforce that she looked very happy."

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Re: The Mystery of the Make-Up Photo - was it taken on the same day as the Last Photo?

Post by Tony Bennett on 12.12.16 16:53

Verdi wrote:DVID PATNE:  "You know I, you know I did know the children very well, we'd all you know, met up many times before err you know I, you know again I'd be playing with Madeleine you know in the, err the play area err you know during that week, you know lifting her up, twizzing her round and everything, I knew her that well, you know, to do that, and as I say err she'd definitely know who I was and certainly, as I say, just to reinforce that she looked very happy."
OK, a short bit of statement analysis here:

1.  Payne says "I'd [= I would] be playing with Madeleine...err in the play area that week...be lifting her up...be twizzing her round...and everything..." 

2.  He says: 'I would have, not 'I was...' or 'I did...' That is classic avoidance. If he was teling the truth, he would use those words, not 'I would have'.

3.  Moreover he does not give ANY specifics about when he is supposed to have done all this playing around and twizzing. And of course there are no holiday snaps of Madeleine playing happily with Payne or the other adults or children, apart from the three on Saturday and the Last Photo (Sunday?).

4.  Finally these is no mention of David Payne happily playing with Madeleine in Kate's book, 'madeleine'

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