Re: Another look at the Last photo

by DaTroof 22.09.15 23:02

Thank you, thank you, thank you. It's great to see someone dealing with it in a proper way. thanks

by Guest 23.09.15 7:22

Knitted wrote:I just posted a new improved video onto the Facebook forum. Some members (Maria!) were still not convinced so I scaled up the experiment to attempt to respond to his/her request to replicate the reflection exactly!! In the absence of a round swimming pool, Gerry's shades and bright sunshine I think this is quite conclusive!! I'll be happy to answer any technical questions!!

(Jump to 3m 20secs to skip the preamble)

Well done Knitted.

I remember going over this ages ago in great detail and the same explanation was given, it's nice to see a concise demonstration.

The only thing dodgy about that picture is the claimed date.

by ROSA 23.09.15 9:53

Get'emGonçalo wrote:

Darren Ware made this video in response to a discussion on the CMOMM facebook group.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/JillHavernCompleteMysteryofMadeleineMcCann/permalink/1670982866479533/

Darren Ware closing comments are interesting he is straight up about what he thinks happened to Madeleine I liked your video thanks

by aiyoyo 23.09.15 17:51

Knitted wrote:I just posted a new improved video onto the Facebook forum. Some members (Maria!) were still not convinced so I scaled up the experiment to attempt to respond to his/her request to replicate the reflection exactly!! In the absence of a round swimming pool, Gerry's shades and bright sunshine I think this is quite conclusive!! I'll be happy to answer any technical questions!!

(Jump to 3m 20secs to skip the preamble)

Thank you knitted. Clear articulate presentation, and nice voice too !

Since Grange had been given a copy of the experts opinion, nothing to stop them using their own associating experts to verify for themselves the result of experts consulted by PeterMac.
If Grange were doing their job seriously you'd suppose that every credible and plausible evidence given to them they would check on for purpose.

It's a mystery why Andy Redwood declared the main characters not people of interest to the investigation when there is a mountain of evidence to substantiate they were hiding the truth.

by willowthewisp 24.09.15 12:52

Hi aiyoyo,
"He who pays the piper calls the Tunes"eh Dodgy Dave, are they still singing from the same hymn sheet now Rebekahs back at the helm,good old Rupert in his quest for the Truth,Not?

by rustyjames 25.09.15 0:56

Excellent, and what I've been saying for a while, but with no good experiment to demonstrate it, for example here - https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t10497p230-another-look-at-the-last-photo#291517

rustyjames wrote:
The explanation I believe is that between Gerry and the photographer is part of the lip of Amelie's hat and then the pool edge. It is not horizontal as it's the rounded edge of the pool - in fact from the photographer's perpective it is mostly vertical with an anti-clockwise curve from them to the subject.

Now that curve is reflected in the left part of the lens which is concave. The effect is to straighten the curve of the pool - in fact it has done so so much that it has introduced a very slight curve in the opposite direction. The dark patch to the right of the reflection is possibly a shadow - maybe even from the photographer.

by Verdi 25.09.15 23:03

rustyjames wrote:Excellent, and what I've been saying for a while, but with no good experiment to demonstrate it, for example here - https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t10497p230-another-look-at-the-last-photo#291517

rustyjames wrote:
The explanation I believe is that between Gerry and the photographer is part of the lip of Amelie's hat and then the pool edge. It is not horizontal as it's the rounded edge of the pool - in fact from the photographer's perpective it is mostly vertical with an anti-clockwise curve from them to the subject.

Now that curve is reflected in the left part of the lens which is concave. The effect is to straighten the curve of the pool - in fact it has done so so much that it has introduced a very slight curve in the opposite direction. The dark patch to the right of the reflection is possibly a shadow - maybe even from the photographer.

I take notice of what you write rustyjames and I trust your judgement on the subject - even if I don't usually say so. Also thanks to knitted for the explanatory video - only just realised it was produced by a forum member.

by **Tony Bennett** 26.09.15 0:18

Verdi wrote:
rustyjames wrote:Excellent, and what I've been saying for a while, but with no good experiment to demonstrate it, for example here - https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t10497p230-another-look-at-the-last-photo#291517

rustyjames wrote:
The explanation I believe is that between Gerry and the photographer is part of the lip of Amelie's hat and then the pool edge. It is not horizontal as it's the rounded edge of the pool - in fact from the photographer's perpective it is mostly vertical with an anti-clockwise curve from them to the subject.

Now that curve is reflected in the left part of the lens which is concave. The effect is to straighten the curve of the pool - in fact it has done so so much that it has introduced a very slight curve in the opposite direction. The dark patch to the right of the reflection is possibly a shadow - maybe even from the photographer.
I take notice of what you write rustyjames and I trust your judgement on the subject - even if I don't usually say so. Also thanks to knitted for the explanatory video - only just realised it was produced by a forum member.

Yes, 'Knitted' has done some very good work on the CMOMM Facebook page - clearly setting out reasons why the Last Photo is likely to be genuine (apart from the query about the date), and completely demolishing all the preposterous claims about 'the sunglasses prove that the Last Photo is photoshopped' etc. etc.

I'm afraid he's up against strong opposition there, including from one or two well-known names in McCannLand, who will keep insisting that their impressions supercede the experienced opinions of several experts.

It was just the same here on the 'Last Photo' threads

by Ray_Sneek 27.02.16 20:10

A CMOMM member has uploaded to YouTube a 15-minute extract of Richard Hall's latest Madeleine film, featuring 'The Last Photo', which features the expert opinions of another renowned CMOMM member - and come to think of it, the film itself is made by a CMOMM member.

It was uploaded on Wednesday (24 February): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdNTyLM_2TQ

by Verdi 27.02.16 23:30

Ray_Sneek wrote:A CMOMM member has uploaded to YouTube a 15-minute extract of Richard Hall's latest Madeleine film, featuring 'The Last Photo', which features the expert opinions of another renowned CMOMM member - and come to think of it, the film itself is made by a CMOMM member.

It was uploaded on Wednesday (24 February): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdNTyLM_2TQ

@knitted on Thu Feb 25, 2016 1:57 am

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t11444p140-was-the-last-photo-taken-on-the-first-day#332505

by Verdi 28.02.16 20:38

I tire of this never ending argument about the timing of the last photograph. How much evidence and/or intelligence is required before people accept that the photograph could have been taken at a time and day other than the proclaimed early afternoon of Thursday 3rd May. The only argument they seem to offer against the possibility is the prevailing weather conditions recorded for that particular week late April and early May 2007 by one archivist or another.

The witness statements of the Tapas group inform us that Thursday 3rd May was blooming cold or chilly, depending on who you care to believe. Even Kate McCann makes reference to wishing she had taken a cardigan for Madeleine (of the top of my head) because it was so chilly. Can't speak for others but I'm blowed if I'd flash the flesh at an ambient temperature hovering between 17C and 19C - not even for a family photoshoot. Even if it was sunny at intervals it doesn't mean it was warm enough for summer gear (as seen in the last photograph) - the sun shines regularly in the Shetlands in December but would you strip off for a poolside afternoon? I doubt it very much - you certainly wouldn't subject your little children to the ordeal.

OK, so one archive says one thing and another archive says another, the other day it rained heavily here on one side of the road but was clear and dry on the other but I'm in no doubt that the meteo archives will record sunny, partial cloud and scattered showers - not it was sunny and warm one side of the M25 but cold and wissing with rain on the other side. All this means nothing without verification by an on-site observer. This was provided I believe by PeterMac, included within his indepth study of the weather conditions during that period. I read this in the last few days, I'll try to find later if someone doesn't beat me to it.

These clever dicks who refuse to see beyond what is directly before their eyes, the last photograph in this instance, seem to ignore and/or can't explain, the fact that the photograph did not materialize until three weeks after Madeleine disappeared - after Gerry McCann returned to the UK to attend to matters of an urgent nature. For crying out loud - what more do people need before accepting that the last photograph is open to scrutiny. Any conspiracy (the word theory purposely omitted) emanates from team McCann NOT their public critics.

The weather conditions play a pivotal role in why this photograph cannot be accepted as authentic in terms of time and day but that is not by any means the only reason why. All the diversion tactics in the world won't change that simple fact.

by Verdi 29.02.16 13:12

It's the first page of this very thread - duh! Well worth a re-plug though so my time is not totally wasted..

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t10497-another-look-at-the-last-photo

It was the bit on 'Weather Records' I was referring to - ex-pats in the locale keeping diary records.

by Verdi 03.03.16 12:26

madeleine by Kate McCann - lunchtime Thursday 3rd May 2007

"Some images are etched for all time on my brain. Madeleine that lunchtime is one of them. She was wearing an outfit I’d bought especially for her holiday: a peach-coloured smock top from Gap and some white broderie-anglaise shorts from Monsoon – a small extravagance, perhaps, but I’d pictured how lovely she would look in them and I’d been right. She was striding ahead of Fiona and me, swinging her bare arms to and fro. The weather was a little on the cool side and I remember thinking I should have brought a cardigan for her..."

by Verdi 03.03.16 12:43

Whilst circumnavigating the length and breadth of the Algarve, the self proclaimed experts in all thing meteorological, neglect to recognize the true value of an eye witness. It's so convenient to shrug aside actual conditions reported by a real person on the scene as shrouded in a cloud of anonymity, or denying the fact that archived statistics, from whatever source, do not necessarily reflect the general conditions in any one specific location.

Still, going around in circles, comparing one region with another according to archives makes for a perfect distraction from the other questionable aspect of the last photograph. I've yet to see a valid explanation as to why the last photograph didn't materialize until three weeks after Madeleine's disappearance. What was it doing in that intervening period? Nor have I seen a convincing argument to confirm Madeleine's existence after the first two days of their arrival in Portugal. Plenty of waffle but nothing persuasive.

The True Story of Madeleine McCann - When Madeleine Died?

This series of films has been researched and presented with the intention of providing an accurate, truthful account of the facts relating to Madeleine McCann. If any person has evidenc that brings new information to light, then we encourage you to contact us by emailing the producer at richard@richplanet.net. If the information you send is relevant and well founded, then we will consider modifying our documentary film(s). We will post any relevant and verifiable updates at www.richplanet.net/madeleine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZV9Ten-HkY

So what are you waiting for?

by skyrocket 09.04.16 17:31

The current discussion on the Alex Woolfall thread re: the 'last photo', had me thinking. Bear with me as I work through to the point:

1.In Jane Tanner's 10 May 2007 statement she says the following:

'As for the Payne and McCann couples, they journeyed by plane from East Midlands to Faro, having arrived around 11h00. They took a taxi from Faro to Luz arriving at 12h00 also on the 28 May [sic]'. (note: Tanner obviously meant '28 April' here).

Tanner does not retract this in her rogatory a year later.

2. On 'Guest List 2' in the PJ Files www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P2/02_VOLUME_lla_Page_335.jpg it states at the bottom of the Payne/McCann entry that 'the Payne and Mccann family will arrive in resort at midday on Saturday.'

3. In the airport video on the bus Gerry Mccann can be seen to be wearing a light grey/tan T shirt with a small white strip around the edge of the sleeve and the neck.

4. As discussed somewhere here on a thread before, in the 'last photo' GM appears to be wearing the same T shirt.

5. In the thread 'Weather in Praia da Luz' posted by @Sallypelt, the first post lists the weather for each day. On Saturday the lunchtime temp rose to 22C.

6. We are told by Kate McCann that both her and MBM ventured into the swimming pool on arrival at the resort.

7. @Hobs commented that Jane Tanner was surprisingly garbled when describing Ella and the creche on Sunday.

8. The T7 statements are also garbled about the outward journey in places - child car seats; etc.

9. Don't forget that Easter 2007 was one of the hottest on record and skin could have got a bit tanned during the hol in Donegal, prior to the hol in Luz.

What if the Mcs were in the resort by midday on the Saturday? What if MBM changed into her new smock to go down to the pool? What if GM threw his shorts on to get a bit of sun (same T shirt). What if the 'last photo' was taken? What if MBM then put a pair of long trousers on because she was cold from the swim (playground photos)?

Any thoughts?

Apologies for the lack/poor links - I'm on a primitive tablet at the moment.

by Roidininki 09.04.16 17:47

Shouldn't this, BIB read 28th April?

In Jane Tanner's 10 May 2007 statement she says the following:

'As for the Payne and McCann couples, they journeyed by plane from East Midlands to Faro, having arrived around 11h00. They took a taxi from Faro to Luz arriving at 12h00 also on the 28 May.'

Personally I think anyone having travelled to a holiday resort with three children under five will be far too busy looking at their accommodation , unpacking ,getting something to eat, to be getting the camera out .
But it was worth a "what if ?" I suppose .

by skyrocket 09.04.16 17:58

@Roidininki

Thanks for pointing out April/May - I've put a caveat in above.

by JRP 11.04.16 12:24

I think we make a mistake if we judge what others do, by what we would do.
We know from KM's book that she and Madeleine were in the pool that afternoon, almost upon arrival, so therefore they didn't spend that time unpacking.

When people begin a sentence with, "personally" they believe that is some sort of standard practice, and it's not.

Personally I wouldn't go on holiday and leave my kids in a creche. Personally if the police wanted my holiday snaps I'd hand over my camera.
Apparently some people do things I personally wouldn't do.

This isn't a dig at anyone, but many times on here, people disbelieve good logic simply because it strays from what they would personally do.

There is logic to all the photos being taken on Saturday afternoon, as much as one being taken on Sunday. As long as the weather provides it's plausibility.

by Roidininki 11.04.16 12:34

JRP you said When people begin a sentence with, "personally" they believe that is some sort of standard practice, and it's not.
As far as I'm concerned when I begin a sentence with Personally , as I did in my last post, I mean it's my own opinion . Nothing to do with how you've described it . However to each his own . Not going to argue on it.

by Verdi 11.04.16 15:34

JRP wrote:I think we make a mistake if we judge what others do, by what we would do.
We know from KM's book that she and Madeleine were in the pool that afternoon, almost upon arrival, so therefore they didn't spend that time unpacking.

When people begin a sentence with, "personally" they believe that is some sort of standard practice, and it's not.

Personally I wouldn't go on holiday and leave my kids in a creche. Personally if the police wanted my holiday snaps I'd hand over my camera.
Apparently some people do things I personally wouldn't do.

Au contraire JRP! The use of the word is perfectly acceptable in the English language, it tells what you are saying is a result of personal experience as opposed to second hand experience.

This isn't a dig at anyone, but many times on here, people disbelieve good logic simply because it strays from what they would personally do.

That's a very astute observation from someone who's only been a member for a month. Good work - look forward to your observations of the case generally.

There is logic to all the photos being taken on Saturday afternoon, as much as one being taken on Sunday. As long as the weather provides it's plausibility.

Logic can be applied to most theories, providing the scenario is not beyond reasonable. Logic dictates that the last photograph could have been taken on the Saturday, Sunday or any other day of the week but evidence does not. Looking at all the information available, factual or otherwise, connected to proceedings on the Saturday, there is nothing to prove, indicate or even suggest that the last photograph could have been taken on that day - Saturday. Unless, with your powers of observation, you can spot something everyone else has missed.

by Roidininki 11.04.16 16:32

Verdi wrote:

Logic can be applied to most theories, providing the scenario is not beyond reasonable. Logic dictates that the last photograph could have been taken on the Saturday, Sunday or any other day of the week but evidence does not. Looking at all the information available, factual or otherwise, connected to proceedings on the Saturday, there is nothing to prove, indicate or even suggest that the last photograph could have been taken on that day - Saturday. Unless, with your powers of observation, you can spot something everyone else has missed.

Verdi, I'll go along with you on that .

by skyrocket 11.04.16 16:58

@Verdi - is there really any more evidence to suggest it was taken on Sunday as opposed to Saturday (genuine question)? Not sure if you've had a chance to look at my post above, which I think @JRP is referring to.

Saturday was a warmer day, according to weather records (despite KM's comments about it being 'chilly').

The facts are that Jane Tanner stated that the Mc's arrived at 12pm (in a police statement taken only 7 days after the disappearance), not later at 2.30pm - 3pm; and that the 'Guest List' clearly states that the group will be arriving at noon. I can't explain why that would be, but seems odd that Tanner's statement agrees exactly with information obviously furnished by the Payne/McCann group when they booked.

IF (and I appreciate it is a big if) the Mc's actually arrived in the resort at noon on the 28th, the 'last photo' could have been taken 2 1/2 hrs later - it is feasible. The events of the afternoon of the 28th, according to the various statements, are very garbled and don't agree on many points.

I don't know whether the 'last photo' was taken on either of the days. I was comfortable with Sunday because of the apparent arrival times; the weather reports; the cleaner's daughter's sighting; etc. However, the more I read the statements the more I wonder why there are so many discrepancies from as soon as the group arrived in Luz.

Can I just clarify - we know that the tennis ball photo was circulated by email on the 7 May at 12.29pm, by Pat Perkins, and it was published in The Mail on 10 May. Were any of the other Luz holiday photos i.e. the playground shots, released anywhere prior to the 'last photo' appearing?

by JRP 11.04.16 17:01

Roidininki wrote:
Verdi wrote:

Logic can be applied to most theories, providing the scenario is not beyond reasonable. Logic dictates that the last photograph could have been taken on the Saturday, Sunday or any other day of the week but evidence does not. Looking at all the information available, factual or otherwise, connected to proceedings on the Saturday, there is nothing to prove, indicate or even suggest that the last photograph could have been taken on that day - Saturday. Unless, with your powers of observation, you can spot something everyone else has missed.
Verdi, I'll go along with you on that .

Point 1 Agreed, and apologies to Roidininki for misinterpreting what you meant.
Point 2 But a long time lurker

Point 3 Yes logic says that the last photo could have been taken on any day of the holiday. Weather conditions I believe say either Saturday or Sunday.
Verdi, what I observe is a very odd photograph, which took 3 weeks to appear.
On another thread I made a post about the dates in EXIF files being easy to change, a post you liked and also commented on as being correct.
However, in Richard Hall's last film, he suggests that the delay could have been that expert help was required, although he also mentions it being an easy task.

by kaz 11.04.16 17:12

skyrocket wrote:The current discussion on the Alex Woolfall thread re: the 'last photo', had me thinking. Bear with me as I work through to the point:

1.In Jane Tanner's 10 May 2007 statement she says the following:

'As for the Payne and McCann couples, they journeyed by plane from East Midlands to Faro, having arrived around 11h00. They took a taxi from Faro to Luz arriving at 12h00 also on the 28 May [sic]'. (note: Tanner obviously meant '28 April' here).

Tanner does not retract this in her rogatory a year later.

2. On 'Guest List 2' in the PJ Files www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P2/02_VOLUME_lla_Page_335.jpg it states at the bottom of the Payne/McCann entry that 'the Payne and Mccann family will arrive in resort at midday on Saturday.'

3. In the airport video on the bus Gerry Mccann can be seen to be wearing a light grey/tan T shirt with a small white strip around the edge of the sleeve and the neck.

4. As discussed somewhere here on a thread before, in the 'last photo' GM appears to be wearing the same T shirt.

5. In the thread 'Weather in Praia da Luz' posted by @Sallypelt, the first post lists the weather for each day. On Saturday the lunchtime temp rose to 22C.

6. We are told by Kate McCann that both her and MBM ventured into the swimming pool on arrival at the resort.

7. @Hobs commented that Jane Tanner was surprisingly garbled when describing Ella and the creche on Sunday.

8. The T7 statements are also garbled about the outward journey in places - child car seats; etc.

9. Don't forget that Easter 2007 was one of the hottest on record and skin could have got a bit tanned during the hol in Donegal, prior to the hol in Luz.

What if the Mcs were in the resort by midday on the Saturday? What if MBM changed into her new smock to go down to the pool? What if GM threw his shorts on to get a bit of sun (same T shirt). What if the 'last photo' was taken? What if MBM then put a pair of long trousers on because she was cold from the swim (playground photos)?

Any thoughts?

Apologies for the lack/poor links - I'm on a primitive tablet at the moment.

Perhaps a study of Madeleine's hair would help in this respect. In the 'Last Photo' ( the pool shot ) she has elastic bands in her hair whilst for the playground pictures and the airport picture she doesn't. To me this rules out Saturday for the 'Final Picture' because once they're in , those elastic bands are hell to get out and I can't see KMC bothering to tell the truth. It's a shame there are no later pictures ( apart from the tennis balls one where her hair is covered ) so we could track them , so to speak.

by kaz 11.04.16 17:32

It's just occurred to me that the pool photo is a 'special' one. The bands in the hair, the pretty clothes is the sort of effort you make at the beginning of the holiday not the end. Especially a Sunday. The intention was obviously there to take some really nice pictures of the holiday but somehow that intention wasn't followed through. I think we can have a pretty good guess why.
The one thing that puzzles me is, yes, I can understand why the date would be changed but why change the time ? Gerry remembers the time of the photo specifically so what's so special about it? To me the time of 2.29 jars badly with the twins' arrival at the crèche.....................barely 6 minutes from pool to being signed into the crèche. Is it possible that whoever altered the date of the photograph believed that Portugal was one hour ahead of the UK and changed that as well resulting in being too clever by half?