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The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™
Welcome to 'The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann' forum 🌹

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When you register please do NOT use your email address for a username because everyone will be able to see it!

Latest interview with Dr Amaral - copied from Joana Morais - with thanks - Page 15 Mm11

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Post by Silver Shuffle 10.06.14 22:04

who is PE?
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Post by Guest 10.06.14 22:05

AndyB wrote:
CynicAl wrote:We are NOT entitled, even as taxpayers, to read every word of an interview, every detail of an investigation or to know every fact.
No we're not but perhaps we should be. The Portuguese are, or at least their criminal justice system provides for it.

ETA

CynicAl wrote:I kid you not, if Mitchell had compromised himself in PDL it would not be a short queue of government figures who'd happily flush the toad, rather than move hell and high water to protect him. We're talking about the unlawful death of a child here in the highest profile case in decades - even if those high level politicos were cold enough to not care and get involved anyway, they're not stupid enough to know the risks of becoming an accessory and conspiring to pervert the course of justice and the scandal of being exposed. There is nothing that can be plausibly put on the table which puts forward anything which is worth that kind of risk
I can think of one thing.

Don't forget the course of justice continues to be perverted by senior people in the case of the former Conservative cabinet minister accused of paedophilia and rape so its not as far fetched as you make out

http://www.exaronews.com/articles/5262/rapist-ex-cabinet-minister-named-in-tom-watson-s-dpp-letter

Precisely AndyB, naivety in the extreme to believe otherwise.
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Post by fossey 10.06.14 22:09

Silver Shuffle wrote:who is PE?
Philip Edmonds.

Have a read of this.

http://aangirfan.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/madeleine-mccann-kray-twins-margaret.html
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Post by Guest 10.06.14 22:14

BlueBag wrote:
MissDaisy wrote:
BlueBag wrote:I'm not having this.

Why did the Government think a media manipulator was required as a priority?

He was there next day!
Was he there the next day? I thought Sheree Dodd was the first person sent by the Government.

Oh yeah.. that's right.


First to arrive in Portugal was a former Mirror journalist and long-term government spokesperson called Sheree Dodd. In an unprecedented move, the Government took over news-handling on behalf of the McCann..

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/SPOKESPERSONS.htm


Then they sent Clarence.

My memory of Government priorities is fading after 7 years.

Because what the McCanns really needed was a Government media person.

Clarence turned up.. when?
Gerry McCann allegedly met up with Clarence Mitchell for the first time when he visited England three weeks after Maddie's disappearance.  Iirc the circumstance leading to the first encounter differ according to which report you listen to but whatever, Gerry returned to Portugal with Mitchell in his luggage.  Close enough?
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Post by MaybeMaybenot 10.06.14 22:26

fossey wrote:
Silver Shuffle wrote:who is PE?
Philip Edmonds.

Have a read of this.

http://aangirfan.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/madeleine-mccann-kray-twins-margaret.html

Hmmm....Seems to be a very strong Jewish connection. Kates Father, Miliband, Oppenheimer, Jez Wilkins, Philip Green. How many more ????
Now they do and will protect
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Post by JackieL 10.06.14 22:27

fossey wrote:
Silver Shuffle wrote:who is PE?
Philip Edmonds.

Have a read of this.

http://aangirfan.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/madeleine-mccann-kray-twins-margaret.html
Mr Philip Martin Edmonds is the nephew of Margaret Hodge -high ranking Labour figure and one of the richest women in the country.


PE and his three boys were out in PdL for the week the McCanns were there, but not his wife Reina. We know from Portuguese police files that PE cut short his holiday and flew out of Portugal to Switzerland on Friday 4th May 2007.


When Tony Bennett wrote to PE asking him about events surrounding his departure from PdL he got the following reply:


Dear Mr Bennett,

I am in receipt of your letter of 22 July regarding Madeleine McCann. I am sure you would appreciate that it would not be appropriate for me to comment too much, as we do not know each other, and I have no idea what your connection to the case is. However, I would also not want further conspiracy theories to fester by simply ignoring your letter. 

Therefore, I can confirm that whatever information I had (including some photos of my sons taken on the day Madeleine disappeared, which showed her in the background) was passed both to the police and to the McCanns at the time. Having been in Portugal at the time of Madeleine’s disappearance and seen all of the events first hand, there is not one shred of doubt in my mind that the events as reported were correct. 

In fact one of the most terrible parts of this tragedy is that there are people out there who are questioning this, just adding further to the nightmare that the McCann family have suffered. I cannot imagine anything crueller. 


I’m afraid I won’t enter into further correspondence on this matter with you.

Yours sincerely,

Philip Edmonds
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Post by missmar1 10.06.14 22:30

Gollum wrote:
BlueBag wrote:
MissDaisy wrote:
BlueBag wrote:I'm not having this.

Why did the Government think a media manipulator was required as a priority?

He was there next day!
Was he there the next day? I thought Sheree Dodd was the first person sent by the Government.

Oh yeah.. that's right.


First to arrive in Portugal was a former Mirror journalist and long-term government spokesperson called Sheree Dodd. In an unprecedented move, the Government took over news-handling on behalf of the McCann..

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/SPOKESPERSONS.htm


Then they sent Clarence.

My memory of Government priorities is fading after 7 years.

Because what the McCanns really needed was a Government media person.

Clarence turned up.. when?
Gerry McCann allegedly met up with Clarence Mitchell for the first time when he visited England three weeks after Maddie's disappearance.  Iirc the circumstance leading to the first encounter differ according to which report you listen to but whatever, Gerry returned to Portugal with Mitchell in his luggage.  Close enough?

And when they all arrived back home - there was Mitchel standing side by side with the Mccann's at their garden gate publicly vouching his 100 %  belief in their innocence even though he hadn't even met them before their daughter went missing .
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Post by JackieL 10.06.14 22:33

Sometimes it's shocking to read the old news reports still knocking around on cached copies of the old Mirror Forum.  It took my breath away just re-reading this from the Observer - gotta be late May 2007:





"Gordon Brown has personally intervened in the search for missing four-year-old Madeleine McCann after her parents became frustrated by the lack of progress in the police investigation.
After a series of telephone conversations with Madeleine's father, Gerry McCann in recent days, the Chancellor requested assistance from the Foreign Office and the Home Office. He asked that pressure be brought to bear on the Portuguese authorities to allow more information about the inquiry to be made public.
Gerry and his wife, Kate, have been desperate for a description of a man seen carrying what appears to have been a child on 3 May to be made public, but Portuguese police refused for three weeks because of the country's laws, which forbid the details of an investigation being released.The Observer understands that Brown gave the McCanns an assurance he would do 'anything he can' to help. The British embassy duly applied pressure on the Portuguese authorities to find more flexibility in their secrecy laws. British ambassador John Buck visited the Algarve last Thursday. A day later Portuguese police made a U-turn and issued a detailed description of the man, said to be white, 35 to 40, 5ft 10in and of medium build, with hair longer around the neck, wearing a dark jacket, light beige trousers and dark shoes.
Asked whether Brown had influenced the decision, Clarence Mitchell, a Foreign Office spokesman for the McCann family in the Algarve, said: 'Draw your own conclusions.' He said in a statement: 'I can confirm that telephone conversations have taken place between Gerry McCann and Chancellor Gordon Brown. During them, Mr Brown offered both Gerry and Kate his full support in their efforts to find Madeleine, although details of the conversations will remain private.'
Although they have praised the efforts being made to find their daughter, the McCanns were said to be increasingly frustrated in recent days at delays and communication problems. The family have met lawyers in the Algarve and threatened legal action to push for the information to be released because of the exceptional circumstances.
The Observer can confirm that a top law firm in London had been asked late last week to seek legal avenues through which the McCanns could be kept up to date on the latest developments in the investigations.

It also emerged yesterday that The Prince of Wales and Duchess of Cornwall had been following the case 'closely and with deep concern'."


WTF?????????
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Post by PeterMac 10.06.14 22:34

Gollum wrote:
Gerry McCann allegedly met up with Clarence Mitchell for the first time when he visited England three weeks after Maddie's disappearance.  Iirc the circumstance leading to the first encounter differ according to which report you listen to but whatever, Gerry returned to Portugal with Mitchell in his luggage. 
And the other thing in their luggage was the Last Photo, which Mitchell disseminated the following day, in a blundering and now all too familiar way which drew immediate attention to the likelihood of its being WRONG -
the one which the world now knows knows to be a forgery.

(For newbies, it was NOT taken at lunchtime on 3rd May.
It can only have been taken on the Sunday 30th April)

(Added for the benefit of C-R - Probably !)
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Post by lj 10.06.14 22:34

aiyoyo wrote:
lj wrote:About the drug trafficking: I thought all drugs were legal in Portugal. Why would there be trafficking?

All drugs are legal in Portugal?  uhmmm...can't be right.


Legal might not be the right term, decriminalized.


http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/evaluating-drug-decriminalization-in-portugal-12-years-later-a-891060.html

____________________
"And if Madeleine had hurt herself inside the apartment, why would that be our fault?"  Gerry

http://pjga.blogspot.co.uk/?m=0

http://whatreallyhappenedtomadeleinemccann.blogspot.co.uk/
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Post by lj 10.06.14 22:36

MarcoG wrote:Looks as if not going along with the almost psychotic view of a grand conspiracy whitewash, is becoming viewed here as 'working for the enemy'. But who benefits from the idea of an all corrupt  investigation?
 
To quote the literate Tony Bennett, ' "cui" bono'. Terribly sorry, but this is all getting a bit silly.


The same I was told several times. 

To make clear I don't believe in a grand conspiracy, I do believe in a white wash.

____________________
"And if Madeleine had hurt herself inside the apartment, why would that be our fault?"  Gerry

http://pjga.blogspot.co.uk/?m=0

http://whatreallyhappenedtomadeleinemccann.blogspot.co.uk/
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Post by HelenMeg 10.06.14 22:38

JackieL wrote:
fossey wrote:
Silver Shuffle wrote:who is PE?
Philip Edmonds.

Have a read of this.

http://aangirfan.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/madeleine-mccann-kray-twins-margaret.html
Mr Philip Martin Edmonds is the nephew of Margaret Hodge -high ranking Labour figure and one of the richest women in the country.


PE and his three boys were out in PdL for the week the McCanns were there, but not his wife Reina. We know from Portuguese police files that PE cut short his holiday and flew out of Portugal to Switzerland on Friday 4th May 2007.


When Tony Bennett wrote to PE asking him about events surrounding his departure from PdL he got the following reply:


Dear Mr Bennett,

I am in receipt of your letter of 22 July regarding Madeleine McCann. I am sure you would appreciate that it would not be appropriate for me to comment too much, as we do not know each other, and I have no idea what your connection to the case is. However, I would also not want further conspiracy theories to fester by simply ignoring your letter. 

Therefore, I can confirm that whatever information I had (including some photos of my sons taken on the day Madeleine disappeared, which showed her in the background) was passed both to the police and to the McCanns at the time. Having been in Portugal at the time of Madeleine’s disappearance and seen all of the events first hand, there is not one shred of doubt in my mind that the events as reported were correct. 

In fact one of the most terrible parts of this tragedy is that there are people out there who are questioning this, just adding further to the nightmare that the McCann family have suffered. I cannot imagine anything crueller. 


I’m afraid I won’t enter into further correspondence on this matter with you.

Yours sincerely,

Philip Edmonds
I think it was somewhere like Linkedin that I saw that PE was an IBM salesman prior to joining board of Stemcor as Treasurer. Most strange - big jump....
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Post by Doug D 10.06.14 22:43

She who must be believed says:

'It was later the same day that Gerry met Clarence Mitchell for the first time'. (ie Monday 21st May) (KH1, p. 148)

'Tuesday 22nd May 2007.............
At lunchtime Gerry arrived back in PdL with Clarence.......' (p.151)

He hung around for three weeks.

Justine arrived 22nd June. (p.182)
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Post by Hicks 10.06.14 22:44

GM returns home on the first trip back to the UK on the 21st May. After this flying visit he returns back to Portugal with the last photo of Madeleine......oh and Clarence Mitchel. Both fly back from East Midlands airport together.

http://gerrymccan-abuseofpower-humanrights.blogspot.co.uk/2009/09/what-happened-to-gerry-mccanns-blue.html.

Just read some of the pure guff Mitchel came out with.
Examples, ......"I have resigned because I feel so strongly that they (McCann's)are the victims of a heinous crime that I am prepared to forgo my career in government to help them". So he knows that a 'heinous 'crime was committed?

Mitchel said he was 'proud' to assist the McCann's. Proud? The McCann's were two negligent parents who left three young children under the age of five unattended so they could enjoy some 'me' time.....not Royalty!

I find these statements by Mitchel interesting. Interview with Expresso......... 

Q. There is a lot of speculation about events 3rd May. What did Kate say when she did not find her daughter in the bedroom? 

A. The witness statements say that Kate shouted, "they've taken her". They are incorrect, I will say no more.
-How does he know she didn't say that? Was he there then?

Q. In order to defend the McCann's innocence with such surety it is necessary that you know more than you say...

A. I know the facts that can explain all the police suspicions regarding what was found in the car or in the apartment rented by them. I cannot reveal any more details. -He knows the facts.

I will not accept that this Media manipulator gave up his career in order to champion the McCann's cause due to feeling some kind of moral obligation to seeking justice. No I just don't but it!

____________________
You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all the people all of the time. Abraham Lincoln.
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Post by Guest 10.06.14 22:50

missmar1 wrote:
Gollum wrote:
BlueBag wrote:
MissDaisy wrote:
BlueBag wrote:I'm not having this.

Why did the Government think a media manipulator was required as a priority?

He was there next day!
Was he there the next day? I thought Sheree Dodd was the first person sent by the Government.

Oh yeah.. that's right.


First to arrive in Portugal was a former Mirror journalist and long-term government spokesperson called Sheree Dodd. In an unprecedented move, the Government took over news-handling on behalf of the McCann..

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/SPOKESPERSONS.htm


Then they sent Clarence.

My memory of Government priorities is fading after 7 years.

Because what the McCanns really needed was a Government media person.

Clarence turned up.. when?
Gerry McCann allegedly met up with Clarence Mitchell for the first time when he visited England three weeks after Maddie's disappearance.  Iirc the circumstance leading to the first encounter differ according to which report you listen to but whatever, Gerry returned to Portugal with Mitchell in his luggage.  Close enough?

And when they all arrived back home - there was Mitchel standing side by side with the Mccann's at their garden gate publicly vouching his 100 %  belief in their innocence even though he hadn't even met them before their daughter went missing .
McCann family media man?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/7378010.stm
Well beyond the line of duty.
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Post by fossey 10.06.14 22:58

Some more Mitchell guff...


Clarence Mitchell's bloopers/clangers and out-takes:

..Mr Mitchell hit back: "It's a great shame that people seem more interested in making money out of Madeleine's disappearance instead of helping the search for her."

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Kate and Gerry are not accused of any crime whatsoever. Neither is there any suggestion that any charges are being considered.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

"However, Kate and Gerry and their friends welcome the police interviews. The friends are more than happy to co-operate fully, as are Kate and Gerry, although in this case Kate and Gerry will not be re-interviewed." "This has not been requested but Kate and Gerry would have agreed to answer any questions had they police wished to put anything to them.

~~~~~~~~~~~~"

There is a wholly innocent explanation for any material the police may or may not have found".

~~~~~~~~~~~~

This appears to be another disgusting attempt to make money out of their plight."

~~~~~~~~~~~~

"An outcome similar to Holly and Jessica is possible. I don't want to, and I can't, talk about Robert Murat but some journalists who worked with me in Soham, and that were now in Portugal, saw resemblances between that case and Robert Murat. And I won't say more."

~~~~~~~~~~~~

They don't cry in public, but plenty of tears are shed 'backstage'.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is not only extremely hurtful to Kate and Gerry but totally disrespectful to Madeleine. The magazine had not sought permission to use Madeleine’s image and the McCanns’ lawyers were now studying the publication.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Kate and Gerry are realistic enough to know that Madeleine may be dead and it would be a tragedy that she is found as such, because it rules out the hope that she is alive... But any widening of the search area is encouraging and we would welcome that. If she is dead then she is dead, but not by their hand.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

No decision has been taken on Kate's future yet. She hasn't approached, or been approached by, any children's charities.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

It is true that we have requested a meeting with the prime minister to show him the strength of our case, to explain Kate and Gerry's innocence and yet all we've been offered is a medium-level-consular meeting, which we rejected.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Post by Hicks 10.06.14 23:03

fossey wrote:Some more Mitchell guff...


Clarence Mitchell's bloopers/clangers and out-takes:

..Mr Mitchell hit back: "It's a great shame that people seem more interested in making money out of Madeleine's disappearance instead of helping the search for her."

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Kate and Gerry are not accused of any crime whatsoever. Neither is there any suggestion that any charges are being considered.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

"However, Kate and Gerry and their friends welcome the police interviews. The friends are more than happy to co-operate fully, as are Kate and Gerry, although in this case Kate and Gerry will not be re-interviewed." "This has not been requested but Kate and Gerry would have agreed to answer any questions had they police wished to put anything to them.

~~~~~~~~~~~~"

There is a wholly innocent explanation for any material the police may or may not have found".

~~~~~~~~~~~~

This appears to be another disgusting attempt to make money out of their plight."

~~~~~~~~~~~~

"An outcome similar to Holly and Jessica is possible. I don't want to, and I can't, talk about Robert Murat but some journalists who worked with me in Soham, and that were now in Portugal, saw resemblances between that case and Robert Murat. And I won't say more."

~~~~~~~~~~~~

They don't cry in public, but plenty of tears are shed 'backstage'.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is not only extremely hurtful to Kate and Gerry but totally disrespectful to Madeleine. The magazine had not sought permission to use Madeleine’s image and the McCanns’ lawyers were now studying the publication.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Kate and Gerry are realistic enough to know that Madeleine may be dead and it would be a tragedy that she is found as such, because it rules out the hope that she is alive... But any widening of the search area is encouraging and we would welcome that. If she is dead then she is dead, but not by their hand.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

No decision has been taken on Kate's future yet. She hasn't approached, or been approached by, any children's charities.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

It is true that we have requested a meeting with the prime minister to show him the strength of our case, to explain Kate and Gerry's innocence and yet all we've been offered is a medium-level-consular meeting, which we rejected.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
 :puke: I need a lie down after all that! Night all.
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Post by CynicAl 10.06.14 23:06

Mirage wrote:@CynicAL.
I hope you won't mind my pointing out some comments you have made that seem contradictory to me.

I noticed in one replyster you mentioned a suspension of logic. I found that a little tough when really all of us are grappling with a case that does not make complete sense from any we can and I amto implythe odd fruitless cul de sac, we realise it ourselves without being hung out to dry as t'were. And it is surely that learning together on this forum, sans the didacticism to be found outside this particular debating chamber, that should be cherished; notwithstanding the odd spat.

Anyway, these are some observations I have drawn from your own words. And incidentally, I have recently complimented you on your post on the Digging thread which was altogether different in tone and a pleasure to read. Anyway some quotes of yours, plus my thoughts in blue:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"I'm grateful (and fearful too) for the fact that I do hold a worldview on life which features the notion that a divine justice is approaching that no Pope on the planet has ever been able to pre-empt or avoid." AND:
“Hmmm. I'm playing catch up with posts, but now I'm reading things that are only confirming my fears about the suspension of logic
.”

In the first quote, you have a belief, strongly stated, which lies outside the parameters of accepted logic. No one demeaned you for your strongly held, but, ultimately unprovable, belief. In the second quote, you do exactly that to others.


"However, the nature of politics is that this is a hot potato in every constituency. This is a question that could be asked in Luz, but not in Leicester."

You are spot on. You have identified the nature of politics. This (the McCann case) is indeed a hot potato. It is a political hot potato. The MPs who would be fielding their constituents’ questions are afraid to address them. So, by a process of logic, who controls the MPs ? The Whip’s office. Who briefs the whips? The chief whips? Well, you get the picture.  And this is why it is right that those of us with an interest in politics and with that particular ability to join political dots are right to look at the seats of influence within certain windows of time.


"I've repeatedly asserted that a high level conspiracy to cover-up and pervert the course of justice from the outset would have resulted in this case looking very, very different, having been dead and moot for several years by now, never to be resurrected, with the principals who could open their mouths and spoil it all being as quiet as the grave, or else in the grave."

Just because you repeatedly assert something might have ended up differently with a high level cover-up does not render it fact. Any component any element of this case appears to contain all the characteristics of the known volatile gases and the complete cast list of every Shakespeare play simultaneously reading the directive “Exeunt all”  The planned elements collided with the unplanned serendipitously to produce one outcome or many levels of outcome depending on your viewpoint. It is all these mishaps and inconguities have caused this site to come into being –well, as far as we can ascertain - to put them under every microscope we can lay our collective hands on.

As for professional jobs. Imagine a suicide victim getting up and moving to slump under a tree, post mortem. Imagine emergency services being alerted before the call comes in to a police station that a body has been discovered. Imagine.  And the loose ends don’t get tied up. They fester and feed into the whole Iraq war business and it never goes away.


“We daily put faith in borderline sociopaths to know our most intimates. We routinely accept that doctors are safe. And we teach our children to trust a policeman. “

Why stop at doctors and policemen? Up until relatively recently we put our faith in top TV entertainers. In politicians, in priests, scientists, bankers and prime ministers and so on. Sociopaths are known to climb to the top of power structures and dominate. That is why some of us have deduced it is no longer safe to assume anything about political leaders and the ruling elite. These people are risk takers par excellence. As such, they don’t follow normal patterns of behaviour so it is no use looking at them through the normality prism.

Sociopaths are often reactive when backed into a tight corner but have sufficient chutzpah to hide in plain sight Think Huhne, think Aitken, think Archer This means when you get loads of them together acting reactively to save their own backsides you get the sort of omnishambles we are likely witnessing; the thing you think can’t possibly happen.

If anything comes out of this dig, it will most likely be at the very moment there is a tipping point (probably in public opinion) and all the sociopaths will slide seamlessly to one end of the see saw whilst the Mcs get thrown into the air. Should this occur they will be abandoned quicker than a dog can shake off fleas. Then you might see the sociopaths devise a once in a lifetime collective arse-covering exercise that will be much more worthy of an intelligence led operation.

And finally, you said:

Someone has been very clever levering this deplorable duo into the hearts of the nation, and I have no idea how it has been so successful, because neither of them are remotely endearing and there are no public displays of despair to stick in the mind. I can only think that it is the over-saturation of the media with Maddie's image and the repeated portrayal of quiet, dignified, middle class doctors against the odds, victimised, which drives the sympathy home.

Rather than this just being the opportunism and brazen behaviour of a couple who got lucky, then? Or a couple who pressed a few productive buttons? You really do think a “someone” has been applying leverage, after all. A certain someone who has worked tirelessly to do this on behalf of two nobodies who lost a child through contemptible neglect abroad. A "someone" who set out to deliberately project an image of them onto a nation. That sounds like high level interference to me. And still you can say this was no organised cover-up? You have certainly identified a commonality with the rest of us in saying you have "no idea how it has been so successful".

So, you see, that is the reason some of us were looking at the politicians and political events of the day in order to try and find an answer to that conundrum you pose. Not so illogical is it?

----------------------------------------------

It looks as if we must all keep digging our own little patch for these answers then contrast and compare in seemly manner....... hopefully.   yes
Mirage, 

it goes without saying that this isn't the forum to be discussing philosophy and metaphysics, nor faith and religion, so I won't go deep into this. When I use the term 'rational' or 'logical' I use it in its purest form, as a process of reason, of considering evidence. I resent the theft of the term by atheists to assert that the only form of intelligent thought, reason or investigation is one which begins with a world devoid of the supernatural. If someone in anvacuum of iinformation announces 'I think somewhere in this world are unseen spiritual beings' without cause or explanation, that can be irrational and illogical. On the other hand if I can find thousands of years of written history which claims that such unseen spiritual beings exist, it would not be irrational or illogical to presume there to be truth in the assertion. What would be irrational and illogical would be to deny thousands of years of historical account for those things, simply because I personally never saw them. There's room in there to enquire and to pursue investigation following the lines of ancient common belief. For me, atheism and so-called 'rationalism' are every bit as illogical a reaction to a wealth of information as you'll ever see. 

So it depends on your definition. What you call 'accepted logic' I call 'popular mass irrationality.' Equally you called my belief 'ultimately unprovable.' Arguably my belief is entirely proven, but the popular position is to reject the evidence and deny the most logical conclusions derived from it. It is up to you to decide whether someone like me actually believes in something unprovable. By the same token, to use populist definitions of 'rational'  and 'logical' and to make the critique that you have which is to take an albeit polite but distinctly opposing view, had you ever considered whether you have a material, logical, rational, proveable belief in order to be contrary with me on those topics? After all, what is truth? 

I dont follow the logic of your second paragraph. I stated that MBM is a political hot potato and MP's are afraid of wading in. You agreed then asked 'so who controls the MP's' and insinuated another top-down conspiracy led by party leaders to silence all questioning. I have a problem with this. Who controls the MP's? I already answered... Fear of public perception controls them. To assume that fear of public perception simply leaves a void, an inertia which then the party whips or whoever else fill with an insidious plot is a leap of logic, defies what we know of human nature and assumes the mindless compromise of all mP's to capitulate to covering up a crime and avoiding difficult questions. Too many illogical assumptions for me, when the simplest answer is the most complete and has no discernible contradiction or inherent problem. 

With your third paragraph the problem that I have is that we end up arguing that instead of being led by specific facts and specific 'knowns' we end up instead counting up all the letters used in writing the account, breaking them down, and seeing what anagrams we can form with them, and then throwing them into the investigative mix because somehow the letters have a right to be used every which way they possibly can. We've seen that with the compiling of the list to see who was in cabinet in May 2007.Take that list further... It could be a list of prime candidates for who bought/sold/killed/raped/hid/kidnapped/covered up/protected/whitewashed in the MBM case. Or for who might have been in town. We surrender what we know, stop working with it in frustration, and start trying to invent new reasons for why we're not seeing the outcome we think we should have. We're frustrated and reaching because we don't have summary mob justice in this country, and can't wait for due process to be satisfied.

Your comments about suicided gover nment academics are misplaced. Firstly, the nature of the cases are chalk and cheese. Second, your cited case proves my point. When government collides with dangerous liability, bodies get found suicided and investigations yield bizarre results which confi rm the official story.

With regard your comment that repetition doth not fact make, that's arbitrary - repeating that you believe a high level cover up has taken place doesn't mean it has. This is still a missing person case, with evidence of foul play. You may feel that the politi cally aware have grounds to look at who was in power. Without material evidence to do so, that's as ridiculous as my asserting that all astronomical experts should look back to see what stars shone in the night sky over PDL that week. 

Your paragraph about sociopaths demonstrates a borderline hysteria. It suggests your interest in the case long ago left a dead girl and those who killed her behind, and moved on to looking for sociopaths behind every bush. You mistakenly suggest that I'm calling you to put faith in sociopaths andbelieve the best of them. Truth is I'm just encouraging you to follow the facts of the case and not chase phantom sociopaths simply because you presume or imagine them to be there. Problem with chasing sociopaths is exactly as you say, you'll only ever affirm that you're right... If SY don't make the progress you want, it was the sociopaths protecting their own; if SY find evidence and make arrests it was because the sociopaths got too jittery and threw the Mc's to the wolves. 

In your final paragraph you see the opportunism and brazen behaviour of a couple who got lucky. I see a couple whose world fell apart, who may have been so devoted to their lifestyle and the regard others held them in, who were gripped by a fear that drove them irrationally down a course of drastic action, past a point of no return, and their lie got bigger and bigger, driven by a need for control and the need to manipulate public perception and opinion, until they got so used to lying that it became a new truth to them. I suspect the first thing they'll do if arrested and convicted, is really grieve. I doubt they've even given themselves the chance, yet. As for "someone" applying leverage, you make a poor mistake if you think that was a reference to a grand high puppetmaster. It was a reference to the hired help (PR), the benefactors (well-meaning idiots) and the media (marketing vultures). 

And yes, actually, I still think you're being as illogical as I always did.  I understand why. But understanding why you're like that, and thinking that the paranoic conspiracy theorist redefinition of logical deduction is of any benefit to an investigation like this are two different things.
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Post by missmar1 10.06.14 23:13

fossey wrote:Some more Mitchell guff...


Clarence Mitchell's bloopers/clangers and out-takes:

..Mr Mitchell hit back: "It's a great shame that people seem more interested in making money out of Madeleine's disappearance instead of helping the search for her."

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Kate and Gerry are not accused of any crime whatsoever. Neither is there any suggestion that any charges are being considered.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

"However, Kate and Gerry and their friends welcome the police interviews. The friends are more than happy to co-operate fully, as are Kate and Gerry, although in this case Kate and Gerry will not be re-interviewed." "This has not been requested but Kate and Gerry would have agreed to answer any questions had they police wished to put anything to them.

~~~~~~~~~~~~"

There is a wholly innocent explanation for any material the police may or may not have found".

~~~~~~~~~~~~

This appears to be another disgusting attempt to make money out of their plight."

~~~~~~~~~~~~

"An outcome similar to Holly and Jessica is possible. I don't want to, and I can't, talk about Robert Murat but some journalists who worked with me in Soham, and that were now in Portugal, saw resemblances between that case and Robert Murat. And I won't say more."

~~~~~~~~~~~~

They don't cry in public, but plenty of tears are shed 'backstage'.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is not only extremely hurtful to Kate and Gerry but totally disrespectful to Madeleine. The magazine had not sought permission to use Madeleine’s image and the McCanns’ lawyers were now studying the publication.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Kate and Gerry are realistic enough to know that Madeleine may be dead and it would be a tragedy that she is found as such, because it rules out the hope that she is alive... But any widening of the search area is encouraging and we would welcome that. If she is dead then she is dead, but not by their hand.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

No decision has been taken on Kate's future yet. She hasn't approached, or been approached by, any children's charities.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

It is true that we have requested a meeting with the prime minister to show him the strength of our case, to explain Kate and Gerry's innocence and yet all we've been offered is a medium-level-consular meeting, which we rejected.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Wasn't it MItchel who also told the UK public that the Mccann's had been "cleared"  of any involvement in their daughter's disappearance ?
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Post by CynicAl 10.06.14 23:19

Hicks wrote:CynicalAL, I ask again......what was the role of Clarence Mitchel? Mitchel gave up his career to assist the McCann's. How could he be so sure that Madeleine's disappearance would continue past his resignation?
Oh god, you're going to keep asking that like its a pivotal question, aren't you? 

You have several possibilities before you ever arrive at the idea that Mitchell lost his mind and decided to gamble all on being an accessory to murder and conspired to pervert the course of justice. 

(i) he's a greedy little chancer who left a job he didn't like knowing that his credentials could get him a secure new post at the drop of a hat, and he decided to take up an offer of paid work on a fixed salary sum for a fixed contract period which could be amended to "as long as needed". 

One thing that's not a mystery is that he wasn't put on a per hour or per day rate, wondering if he could get overtime lest his contract ended early with adead or alive recovery. Someone paid him well. 

He's also smarter than an average red top reader and knew that whatever the outcome would be, he'd have a saleable story. 

(ii) In his line of work he is dependent on plausible deniability, much like a lawyer. It may make him prince of darkness, but he accepts what he's told, asks no troubling questions and genuinely sees himself as doing a job divorced from his personal morals, and he will lie, cheat and steal for any paying clients. 

(iii) he's a real believer. He's been seduced by the Mc's, maybe with a lie, maybe a half truth, maybe a whole truth, and he's genuinely convinced by it. 

Me? I think he's Michael Clayton. But I'm damn sure he ain't 'M'.
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Post by CynicAl 10.06.14 23:29

Gollum wrote:@ CynicalAl today 10:22 am

 

"One more question. If this is a big government conspiracy from day one because of someone who was present in the resort at the time, then how do we trust Martin Grime, Mark Harrison, the favourable contributions alleged by British police investigators, the suspicions of British diplomats, and the PJ files? If this was all manipulation and control, why is it not controlled from outset?"

 

It was controlled from the outset, at least as far as was possible. You seem to forget that this case occurred in Portugal, I'm sure it would have been a whole different ball game if Maddie had disappeared in England. It's all very well to spout off about mass cover ups on a general scale but your grand gestures forget to take into consideration all the mysterious happenings surrounding the case, within the investigation and without. These issues have been discussed over and over again for the past seven years with many a differing view point put forward. Please don't presume to know better than the rest having ignored all the strange occurrences known to the world.

 

The GNR and PJ were on the case PDQ and had already started to smell a rat before the intervention of the British rendering the situation rather difficult for control from another country. Enter Clarence Mitchell!  So what is your answer to the recent question posed by Hicks as regards Clarence Mitchell. A sentence or two will suffice.
It WAS NOT controlled from the outset. I don't know what your definition of 'controlled' is, but I don't recognise it.  If it was controlled we would not be discussing this chaos seven years on. This 'controlled' situation is an embarrassment to anyone who ever controlled anything ever. 

And there are no "mysterious happenings" to account for. There are sheer coincidences and there are total nonsenses, hyped into taking on a life of their own by pure fantasists. And then there are tangible, material facts available for examination in what is at its heart a very elementary case, in which crucial evidence has been successfully spirited away. I do wish we could stick to that.
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Post by CynicAl 10.06.14 23:34

Mirage wrote:If I were running that investigation I wouldn't put out crass trailers for revelation moments on Crimewatch.

I wouldn't  put out two different e-fits of supposedly the same man without explanation of exactly who saw them.

I wouldn't further muddy already murky waters with an assortment of lurker type images, none of which were properly explained in context of that night.

I wouldn't hang the children's bedroom door on the wrong side and have everyone believe in a completely different viewing angle for the German version.

I would not refuse to have the programme aired in the country where the crime was committed.

I would not film the recon in Spain instead of Portugal.

I would not  expect officers above me to keep coming out with useless statements such as we saw from Hogan-Howe about suspects and arrests. And the other bod about SY being told off by the PJ for being blabbermouths.

On Five-Half-Alive,  Hogan-Howe either pretended to forget, or did forget, what Operation Grange was investigating. Option A or option B - you choose? Very professional, seeing as he'd come especially to answer public concerns and couldn't recall what is shaping up to be the case of the century.

I would not spend over two years telling the public how the two police teams were co-operating and working side by side, then come out at the last minute and say I was conducting an entirely different investigation to the Portuguese.

I would not land in Faro with substantial luggage, wheel it round the streets for a photo shoot and go home again soon after. It looked plonkerish.

I would not rule anyone out or anyone in at any point.

I would do a round of the Fleet street editors and tell them any press releases would come from SY. The usual promise of the full lowdown, as and when. I wouldn't wait for the PJ to tell me I was a blabbermouth first.

I could go on ad infinitum.

So, its not too hard to understand that when we finally learned this revelation moment was crecheman and a pair of his child's seven year old pyjamas, armchair detectives the world over felt their moment had come to shine.
On that basis you wouldn't have achieved anything then, because you lack skills in chess and poker, and seem more partial to snakes & ladders and guess who?
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Post by Guest 11.06.14 0:12

CynicAl wrote:
Gollum wrote:@ CynicalAl today 10:22 am

 

"One more question. If this is a big government conspiracy from day one because of someone who was present in the resort at the time, then how do we trust Martin Grime, Mark Harrison, the favourable contributions alleged by British police investigators, the suspicions of British diplomats, and the PJ files? If this was all manipulation and control, why is it not controlled from outset?"

 

It was controlled from the outset, at least as far as was possible. You seem to forget that this case occurred in Portugal, I'm sure it would have been a whole different ball game if Maddie had disappeared in England. It's all very well to spout off about mass cover ups on a general scale but your grand gestures forget to take into consideration all the mysterious happenings surrounding the case, within the investigation and without. These issues have been discussed over and over again for the past seven years with many a differing view point put forward. Please don't presume to know better than the rest having ignored all the strange occurrences known to the world.

 

The GNR and PJ were on the case PDQ and had already started to smell a rat before the intervention of the British rendering the situation rather difficult for control from another country. Enter Clarence Mitchell!  So what is your answer to the recent question posed by Hicks as regards Clarence Mitchell. A sentence or two will suffice.
It WAS NOT controlled from the outset. I don't know what your definition of 'controlled' is, but I don't recognise it.  If it was controlled we would not be discussing this chaos seven years on. This 'controlled' situation is an embarrassment to anyone who ever controlled anything ever. 

And there are no "mysterious happenings" to account for. There are sheer coincidences and there are total nonsenses, hyped into taking on a life of their own by pure fantasists. And then there are tangible, material facts available for examination in what is at its heart a very elementary case, in which crucial evidence has been successfully spirited away. I do wish we could stick to that.

My definition of the word 'controlled' is the generally accepted as defined by the English language.  You are refusing to acknowledge everything said in support of the views of others on this forum with your global claims about conspiratorial cover ups.  That of course is your prerogative but renders it impossible to move forward with a definitive construction of argument if you can't move away from your static view.

I don't know who this 'we' are that you refer to but if this topic is to be continued may I suggest you start with explaining your views on how and why Clarence Mitchell was shipped over to Portugal to mealy mouth on behalf of the McCann's and why they were privileged to an abnormal level of support from the British diplomatic corps?  Your choice but without some input from you other than reams of unnecessary wordage that amount to zero I can't see there is any point in continuation.  Over to you!
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Post by Okeydokey 11.06.14 1:02

fossey wrote:Some more Mitchell guff...


Clarence Mitchell's bloopers/clangers and out-takes:

..Mr Mitchell hit back: "It's a great shame that people seem more interested in making money out of Madeleine's disappearance instead of helping the search for her."

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Kate and Gerry are not accused of any crime whatsoever. Neither is there any suggestion that any charges are being considered.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

"However, Kate and Gerry and their friends welcome the police interviews. The friends are more than happy to co-operate fully, as are Kate and Gerry, although in this case Kate and Gerry will not be re-interviewed." "This has not been requested but Kate and Gerry would have agreed to answer any questions had they police wished to put anything to them.

~~~~~~~~~~~~"

There is a wholly innocent explanation for any material the police may or may not have found".

~~~~~~~~~~~~

This appears to be another disgusting attempt to make money out of their plight."

~~~~~~~~~~~~

"An outcome similar to Holly and Jessica is possible. I don't want to, and I can't, talk about Robert Murat but some journalists who worked with me in Soham, and that were now in Portugal, saw resemblances between that case and Robert Murat. And I won't say more."

~~~~~~~~~~~~

They don't cry in public, but plenty of tears are shed 'backstage'.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is not only extremely hurtful to Kate and Gerry but totally disrespectful to Madeleine. The magazine had not sought permission to use Madeleine’s image and the McCanns’ lawyers were now studying the publication.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Kate and Gerry are realistic enough to know that Madeleine may be dead and it would be a tragedy that she is found as such, because it rules out the hope that she is alive... But any widening of the search area is encouraging and we would welcome that. If she is dead then she is dead, but not by their hand.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

No decision has been taken on Kate's future yet. She hasn't approached, or been approached by, any children's charities.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

It is true that we have requested a meeting with the prime minister to show him the strength of our case, to explain Kate and Gerry's innocence and yet all we've been offered is a medium-level-consular meeting, which we rejected.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Don't forget his all time classic: "None of them had mobile phones or watches with them that night."  Er yeah, of course Clarence, it's not like this is the 21st century or anything, duh!
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Post by Halfwit 11.06.14 1:05

@CynicalAl.
 
I enjoy your posts but I can't debate with you and others, I lack the brainpower hence my username but I trust my instincts which in seventy years have got me out of scrapes, especially in the late sixties/seventies when I was carefree and naive. Just one example - my friend and I opened a tiny basement charcoal grill restaurant in Earl's Court. Within three weeks the protection gang came down to suss us out. Two of them asking questions the first time (we used to be there in the afternoons cooking starters and puds) then they came back with their Big Man who didn't utter a word. Just stood there with his overcoat on his shoulders trying to look like Marlon Brando.

Of course we'd wondered about the first visit but the second appearance was a bit scary with their stance. We just carried on with what we were doing and being friendly dumb blonde idiots. Eventually Marlon decided we weren't worth bothering with and gave the nod to his minions and we were never troubled again.

My point:-


 "driven by a need for control and the need to manipulate public perception and opinion, until they got so used to lying that it became a new truth to them. I suspect the first thing they'll do if arrested and convicted, is really grieve. I doubt they've even given themselves the chance, yet. "

To me is a very perceptive observation.

The alternative of course is that they may never be able to truly grieve.
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