Re: Digging to start next week - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

by Seek truth 28.05.14 14:55

Oh so madeleine wasn't abducted by an abductor.
She was burgled.
She was abducted by a burglar, if this makes sense.

by **PeterMac** 28.05.14 14:57

Now imagine the Portuguese Police coming to England and asking for a warrant to enter private premises, by force if necessary, and to dig holes there . . .
You are the Magistrate.
What standard of proof and what amount of evidence and in what form are you going to require before you even start to listen to their lawyer.
Remember that Portugal is a new democracy with a very new Constitution which protects the Rights of its Citizens far more strenuously than do older jurisdictions
The libel trial is a case in point.
WIKI

Article 34
(Inviolability of home and correspondence)
Personal homes and the secrecy of correspondence and other means of private communication shall be inviolable.
Entry into a citizen’s home may only be ordered by the competent judicial authority and then only in such cases and in compliance with such forms as may be laid down by law.
No one shall enter any person’s home at night without his consent, save in situations of flagrante delicto, or with judicial authorisation in cases of especially violent or highly organised crime, including terrorism and trafficking in persons, arms or narcotics, as laid down by law.
The public authorities shall be prohibited from interfering in any way with correspondence, telecommunications or other means of communication, save in such cases as the law may provide for in relation to criminal proceedings.

IF, and ONLY IF, any part of this story is true,
they have got something.

by **PeterMac** 28.05.14 15:01

Seek truth wrote:Oh so madeleine wasn't abducted by an abductor.
She was burgled.
She was abducted by a burglar, if this makes sense.

Or burgled by an abductor
Or buried by an adaptor
Or adopted by a burgher

by Praiaaa 28.05.14 15:03

PeterMac wrote:
Seek truth wrote:Oh so madeleine wasn't abducted by an abductor.
She was burgled.
She was abducted by a burglar, if this makes sense.

Or burgled by an abductor
Or buried by an adaptor
Or adopted by a burgher

by Guest 28.05.14 15:07

PeterMac wrote:If SY are going to need "backhoes" aka JCB diggers, then surely it follows that the "Abductor" must have had the equivalent machinery to dig the hole in the first place.
Am I missing something here ?

by Woofer 28.05.14 15:13

PeterMac wrote:Now imagine the Portuguese Police coming to England and asking for a warrant to enter private premises, by force if necessary, and to dig holes there . . .
You are the Magistrate.
What standard of proof and what amount of evidence and in what form are you going to require before you even start to listen to their lawyer.
Remember that Portugal is a new democracy with a very new Constitution which protects the Rights of its Citizens far more strenuously than do older jurisdictions
The libel trial is a case in point.
WIKI
Article 34
(Inviolability of home and correspondence)
Personal homes and the secrecy of correspondence and other means of private communication shall be inviolable.
Entry into a citizen’s home may only be ordered by the competent judicial authority and then only in such cases and in compliance with such forms as may be laid down by law.
No one shall enter any person’s home at night without his consent, save in situations of flagrante delicto, or with judicial authorisation in cases of especially violent or highly organised crime, including terrorism and trafficking in persons, arms or narcotics, as laid down by law.
The public authorities shall be prohibited from interfering in any way with correspondence, telecommunications or other means of communication, save in such cases as the law may provide for in relation to criminal proceedings.

IF, and ONLY IF, any part of this story is true,
they have got something.

Restraining self from getting too optimistic
pray2

by Angelique 28.05.14 15:15

It's possible to hire pneumatic drills - heavy duty stuff - for drilling through thick stone. So could have been used without raising any flags.

by Cristobell 28.05.14 15:17

Andrew77R wrote:
PeterMac wrote:Police officers work close to dogs all through their service. Drugs, explosives, firearms residues, bodies dead or alive . . .
They know know how good they are.
Medics understand how accurate and detailed are the alerts of a Malignant melanoma dog, a kidney cancer dog, seizure alert dog, diabetic incident dog
and more are being trained to detect lung cancer from a patient's breath.
There are MANY more examples.
Fire and rescue use them, the Army use them, Mountain Rescue use them, Avalanche patrols use them

Only two people in the entire world say they are notoriously unreliable
Co-incidentally the only two who were "fingered" by the alerts.
... but why have Operation Grange never once if i recall, mentioned the original dogs findings back in 2007..?

Operation Grange have diverted suspicion away from the McCanns since the Review and indeed the investigation, began. Imo, due to the huge media interest, they had no alternative. I think they avoided mention of the dogs as they did not want to kick off a media storm that would point the finger towards the McCanns. As we know the dog alerts are hardly a secret, but the public forget and the MSM have done nothing to remind them.

The McCanns will be extremely vulnerable when the story breaks - as yet we do not know what the backlash will be. Many people will be very angry when they discover they have been conned and some of their more obsessive fans are criminally insane. I believe the McCanns are being protected by the authorities - not for whitewash reasons, but for their own safety.

by CynicAl 28.05.14 15:24

PeterMac wrote:Now imagine the Portuguese Police coming to England and asking for a warrant to enter private premises, by force if necessary, and to dig holes there . . .
You are the Magistrate.
What standard of proof and what amount of evidence and in what form are you going to require before you even start to listen to their lawyer.
Remember that Portugal is a new democracy with a very new Constitution which protects the Rights of its Citizens far more strenuously than do older jurisdictions
The libel trial is a case in point.
WIKI
Article 34
(Inviolability of home and correspondence)
Personal homes and the secrecy of correspondence and other means of private communication shall be inviolable.
Entry into a citizen’s home may only be ordered by the competent judicial authority and then only in such cases and in compliance with such forms as may be laid down by law.
No one shall enter any person’s home at night without his consent, save in situations of flagrante delicto, or with judicial authorisation in cases of especially violent or highly organised crime, including terrorism and trafficking in persons, arms or narcotics, as laid down by law.
The public authorities shall be prohibited from interfering in any way with correspondence, telecommunications or other means of communication, save in such cases as the law may provide for in relation to criminal proceedings.

IF, and ONLY IF, any part of this story is true,
they have got something.

That would be my take too.

To move a foreign police force, with the support of foreign diplomats, under the watchful eye of a foreign judiciary, authorised by a foreign government, under the provisions of internationally agreed standards of trans-continental law enforcement and cooperation, and to rouse the assistance of a foreign military agency, and the handling of a foreign press...

Takes more than a psychic's vision and a wannabe British supercop's wet dream of glowing accolades.

I can't speak for the motivations of the small fries of this case, but I do know that in order to move the mountains of administration takes more than a nice smile and a polite tone. And it sure as hell doesn't get acheived by the brash bluster of nationalistic xenophobic bully for Britain politicos sniggering over the thought of sardine munching PortoPlod...

There are scores to be settled, and it sounds like the tempo is, indeed, quickening.

by CynicAl 28.05.14 15:29

Angelique wrote:It's possible to hire pneumatic drills - heavy duty stuff - for drilling through thick stone. So could have been used without raising any flags.

I don't know where you live, but I live in a small town...

It's barely possible to hire a hand drill and go to work without arousing attention. First, most hire places want credit cards or bank cards for payment, since a 'cash payment' for a sudden night's hire of 'heavy duty drilling equipment' would be predictably rewarded with a non-return of the goods in question. Second, unless your tool business specialises in cadaver disposal for criminal gangs, the chance that such a hire would take place so suddenly, in such an area, where such a crime is committed, and you wouldn't tip off plod is pretty slim. Third, I don't know about you, but I can't pull out a power tool in my back garden without the neighbours being at the fence. I don't fancy the chances of a guy in his chinos and a polo shirt wandering over to property that isn't his, and is probably overlooked by public spaces, and hammering away with a pneumatic without arousing the suspicion of the neighbours and someone in the local neighbourhood watch asking 'who are these contractors making all this noise... have they been approved for the works' followed by a council official with a flea in his ear saying 'works? what works?'

It takes more than a while to pull off The Great Escape. And more than a pneumatic drill.

by CynicAl 28.05.14 15:36

Cristobell wrote:
Andrew77R wrote:
PeterMac wrote:Police officers work close to dogs all through their service. Drugs, explosives, firearms residues, bodies dead or alive . . .
They know know how good they are.
Medics understand how accurate and detailed are the alerts of a Malignant melanoma dog, a kidney cancer dog, seizure alert dog, diabetic incident dog
and more are being trained to detect lung cancer from a patient's breath.
There are MANY more examples.
Fire and rescue use them, the Army use them, Mountain Rescue use them, Avalanche patrols use them

Only two people in the entire world say they are notoriously unreliable
Co-incidentally the only two who were "fingered" by the alerts.
... but why have Operation Grange never once if i recall, mentioned the original dogs findings back in 2007..?
Operation Grange have diverted suspicion away from the McCanns since the Review and indeed the investigation, began. Imo, due to the huge media interest, they had no alternative. I think they avoided mention of the dogs as they did not want to kick off a media storm that would point the finger towards the McCanns. As we know the dog alerts are hardly a secret, but the public forget and the MSM have done nothing to remind them.

The McCanns will be extremely vulnerable when the story breaks - as yet we do not know what the backlash will be. Many people will be very angry when they discover they have been conned and some of their more obsessive fans are criminally insane. I believe the McCanns are being protected by the authorities - not for whitewash reasons, but for their own safety.

I cannot even begin to imagine how delicately even the most committed investigation would have to be in this situation.

To cut a long story short, as many people as may be implicated in either foreknowledge, or murder, or a fake kidnapping, or sexual shenanigans, or any kind of covering up whatsoever, and as many people as may be associated with those people, will all have to be extracted and/or protected simultaneously because the repercussions of this case blowing open have gone beyond serious and into the realm of total nuclear meltdown...

Angry people, venting, anger unleashed, not to mention the innocents who will irradiated by the fallout, all needing care and concern, protection systems in place...

Like you said, the blogosphere and the twitterverse are tragically populated by lunatics on both sides...

The logistics of the properties that will need to be protected, the coordination of police forces across the country, the speed, the precision required, the accommodation offered to those needing protective custody... its enormous. In fact, its so enormous that you almost couldn't blame the authorities looking for a solution that hangs as few people as completely as possible, as quickly as possible. I'll bet money that there are people in this country praying for Mr & Mrs to kill themselves in an act of despair, and let the case die with them.

by russiandoll 28.05.14 15:45

Quote bristow [ bold mine ] " I may be remembering it wrong so someone please correct me if I am, but I seem to remember Gerry Mccann once said that it was like going to the auto bank and finding yourself over the limit when he discovered his child missing.Yes dear Gerry said -

"The analogy that I like to use is a bit like when we were students and you'd got to your overdraft limit and you'd gone beyond it and there was just nothing left in the tank."

Taken from an interview with Sky News May 2007

http://news.sky.com/story/515170/read-what-the-mccanns-told-sky-news

No, he did not compare finding his child gone to finding he was in the red at the bank. he was making an analogy about his emotional exhaustion and having nothing left to give. The same comment has been made before on this forum and it is simply not the case that Gerry McCann compared the emotion at finding his child missing to finding he was overdrawn at the bank!

Here are his words : bold mine

GM: Certainly, you know, at the end of that first week there was so much emotion that we had spent and we actually had a period where we discussed this openly that we felt devoid, completely devoid of emotion. The analogy that I like to use is a bit like when we were students and you'd got to your overdraft limit and you'd gone beyond it and there was just nothing left in the tank.
Also, I think, physically and mentally were shattered but, you know, as we gradually got more on an even keel and we started to get back into the black

by aiyoyo 28.05.14 15:45

Andrew77R wrote:
tiny wrote:
Andrew77R wrote:"The English believe that the little girl was killed during a burglary to the house and that the body was abandoned near the Ocean Club afterwards"

Not a good sign for the Whitewash believers..

I thought it was a good sign for the whitewashers believers,because we know a burglary never happened.
Apologies,

Yes, I actually mean't a good sign for the Whitewashers. The only whitewash theory they can come up with really.

Multitasking when i wrote. Typical bloke and can't multitask!!!

(No offence to other blokes who i'm sure can)

O/T

It is an urban myth that men cannot multi-task as well as women.

by roy rovers 28.05.14 15:47

AR may just be using the idea of a burglary to get as close as possible to the truth without pointing the finger at the parents at this stage. The whole scenario - died in the apartment , buried nearby - can then be transferred to the parents if / when established.

by tiny 28.05.14 15:55

When would any one have time to bury Madeleine. even if she died a day or so before it would be very risky,unless she was buried IN Murats garden
behind the high wall away from prying eyes after the pj checked his house and garden out.

by aiyoyo 28.05.14 15:57

jeanmonroe wrote:'digging' to start next week.
--------------------------------

If i were cynical i'd say that it must be pure 'coincidence' that the 'digging' will be ongoing at the same time as the 'conman' programme is broadcast.

Talking about the conman, Halligen's operation is named "Operation Omega".

Alpha Investigations Group (Dave Edgar and Arthur Cowley) and Omega (Halligen and Exton),....uhhmmm coincidence or not very original ?

by **PeterMac** 28.05.14 16:10

tiny wrote:When would any one have time to bury Madeleine. even if she died a day or so before it would be very risky,. . ..

Some weeks later, having moved the body from the cold storage in the boot of the car. Hence the cadaver odour in the car and on the Key fob.

by **PeterMac** 28.05.14 16:11

aiyoyo wrote:
It is an urban myth that men cannot multi-task as well as women.

But it suits men to let women believe it !

by **PeterMac** 28.05.14 16:18

For SY to have mentioned the dogs would mean that the Al Capone scenario kicked in before they had any chance of liaising with the PJ and trying to find the body, and getting to the truth, the whole truth of what actually happened and who was involved.
Once anyone is cautioned they have the legal right to remain silent.
Kate has already demonstrated this by refusing to assist in the "search" for Madeleine, and acknowledging that by so refusing she was so hindering.

by aiyoyo 28.05.14 16:21

PeterMac wrote:Just pulling three bits out of what may turn out to be Tabloid rubbish

The three grounds are located near the Praia da Luz resort, in Lagos, where the English child disappeared from, on the 3rd of May of 2007. The English believe that the little girl was killed during a burglary to the house and that the body was abandoned near the Ocean Club afterwards.
NEAR PdL. NOT IN PdL.
Dogs that specialise in detecting cadaver odour will participate in the searches. The animals come from England and have already been successfully used in the retrieval of other bodies. The radars that will be used to find out if there is an alien object under ground will come from the same country.
Dogs and GPR - see other posts
The search warrants that permit the searches have also been issued already - because these are private grounds.
Search Warrants ?
If that is even close to being "true" it is very revealing.

WIKI
United Kingdom
Search warrants are issued by a local Magistrate and require a Constable to provide evidence to support the warrant application.
In other words a mere suspicion is not enough. You are not allowed to go on a "Fishing expedition".

However, CdM is a red top and should not be believed without independent verification.

We know team McCann is source for UK tripe on the PJ investigations.
Wonder who could be the source for CdM story on the MET operation?
CdM is doing to the MET what UK tabloids do the PJ.
Par for the Course. Which bits are true and which bits just hearsay is anyone's guess.

by aiyoyo 28.05.14 16:53

About the talk of searches - in the first place search warrant will not be granted without substantive evidence to justify the issuance in this jurisdiction, never mind expecting another jurisdiction to grant it just on suspicions without evidence justification.

Besides the bureaucracy of several levels of procedures/processing from one country inter-authoritiess to another country's inter-authorities is very time consuming.
Unless urgency is called for on exceptional evidence this may go straight up to the Magistrate for a fast track approval, and again this is restricted to within one jurisdiction. So to believe Portugal to have already granted it on ILOR basis it would have to mean MET already have substantive evidence to support the application, which is hard to believe since they are going on a fishing expedition with the digs.

The imminent searches and arrests of laundry men, bin man, home intruders et al, hyped up by Team McCann did not happen for exactly the reason Police cannot obtain search warrant nilly willy.

I will take CdM article with large pinch of salt.

JCB, dogs and team of Police is going to be difficult to hide from press, so let's wait and see whether imminent digs are going to happen and where exactly.

by stillsloppingout 28.05.14 17:10

TozerDerry wrote:Burglary is not theft. Burglary is entry to premises with intention to commit a crime within those premises. No theft need be involved.

Burglar if i am not mistaken in this context is a noun for a person who commits burglary .

by aiyoyo 28.05.14 17:11

tiny wrote:When would any one have time to bury Madeleine. even if she died a day or so before it would be very risky,unless she was buried IN Murats garden
behind the high wall away from prying eyes after the pj checked his house and garden out.

Exactly !
Stranger abductor won't be too bothered to bury a body.
He would get rid of it quickly, dumping it as far away as possible from him or crime scene.
It is very unlikely stranger abductor would bury victim in a properly dug grave involving use of fancy tool that JCB is needed to undo it.

by plebgate 28.05.14 17:25

aiyoyo wrote:
tiny wrote:When would any one have time to bury Madeleine. even if she died a day or so before it would be very risky,unless she was buried IN Murats garden
behind the high wall away from prying eyes after the pj checked his house and garden out.

Exactly !
Stranger abductor won't be too bothered to bury a body.
He would get rid of it quickly, dumping it as far away as possible from him or crime scene.
It is very unlikely stranger abductor would bury victim in a properly dug grave involving use of fancy tool that JCB is needed to undo it.

Sounds about right to me.

by TozerDerry 28.05.14 17:32

stillsloppingout wrote:
TozerDerry wrote:Burglary is not theft. Burglary is entry to premises with intention to commit a crime within those premises. No theft need be involved.
Burglar if i am not mistaken in this context is a noun for a person who commits burglary .

And Burglary is unauthorised entry to a property with intent to commit a crime- not necessarily the crime of theft.