Re: Libel Trial 7th Jan Postponed - confirmed

by Liz Eagles 26.03.14 10:35

Tony Bennett wrote:
Cristobell wrote:
russiandoll wrote:I am puzzled by your claim, too, Cristobell, as we only have Gerry's word for that. I would not trust anyone who spoke about checking his children on a holiday starting at the end of April, but who only put his head through to LOOK into the room for the first time at approx. 9.05 May 3rd.
We can only go by the statements of the McCanns and Tapas group Russiandoll, its all we have. Gerry claims Madeleine was alive at 9.10, therefore if she died in the apartment, it must have happened after that.
Cristobell's words which I have bolded are 100% correct.

Absolutely!

by whatliesbehindthesofa 26.03.14 10:37

Tony Bennett wrote:
Cristobell wrote:
russiandoll wrote:I am puzzled by your claim, too, Cristobell, as we only have Gerry's word for that. I would not trust anyone who spoke about checking his children on a holiday starting at the end of April, but who only put his head through to LOOK into the room for the first time at approx. 9.05 May 3rd.
We can only go by the statements of the McCanns and Tapas group Russiandoll, its all we have. Gerry claims Madeleine was alive at 9.10, therefore if she died in the apartment, it must have happened after that.
Cristobell's words which I have bolded are 100% correct.

Well no, seems to be a flaw in your logic there.

'Gerry claims Madeleine was alive at 9.10, therefore if she died in the apartment, and Gerry told the truth about seeing Madeleine at this time, it must have happened after that.'

- is logically true.

by Cristobell 26.03.14 10:39

Watching wrote:
Cristobell wrote:
russiandoll wrote:I am puzzled by your claim, too, Cristobell, as we only have Gerry's word for that. I would not trust anyone who spoke about checking his children on a holiday starting at the end of April, but who only put his head through to LOOK into the room for the first time at approx. 9.05 May 3rd.
We can only go by the statements of the McCanns and Tapas group Russiandoll, its all we have. Gerry claims Madeleine was alive at 9.10, therefore if she died in the apartment, it must have happened after that.

Morning Cristobell,

I beg to differ it is not 'all we have' We have the good sense given to us to look beyond, and recognise when someone is trying to pull a fast one! To discuss based on what Mr & Mrs have stated is one thing, to state that what they said is 'all we have' WOW!

Top of the morning to you too Watching.

I stand by 'all we have' - we here on this forum are not privy to inside details of the investigation, we must go by the story that is in the public domain. According to the main protagonists in this drama, Gerry was the last person to see Maddie alive.

I could indeed speculate on all sorts of scenarios and probably have done over the years, but you have to work the information that is available, and the information we have, is that Gerry had a proud father moment at 9.10pm - ergo, if Madeleine died in the apartment, then it must have happened in the 50 minutes following, during which time, Matt Oldfield went into the apartment to check, and saw nothing.

by canada12 26.03.14 10:41

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
Tony Bennett wrote:
Cristobell wrote:
russiandoll wrote:I am puzzled by your claim, too, Cristobell, as we only have Gerry's word for that. I would not trust anyone who spoke about checking his children on a holiday starting at the end of April, but who only put his head through to LOOK into the room for the first time at approx. 9.05 May 3rd.
We can only go by the statements of the McCanns and Tapas group Russiandoll, its all we have. Gerry claims Madeleine was alive at 9.10, therefore if she died in the apartment, it must have happened after that.
Cristobell's words which I have bolded are 100% correct.

Well no, seems to be a flaw in your logic there.

'Gerry claims Madeleine was alive at 9.10, therefore if she died in the apartment, and Gerry told the truth about seeing Madeleine at this time, it must have happened after that.'

- is logically true.

Therefore...

If it can be proved that Madeleine died in the apartment... then

Either she died after 9.10pm.
Or Gerry is lying and she died prior to 9.10pm.

by Liz Eagles 26.03.14 10:44

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
Tony Bennett wrote:
Cristobell wrote:
russiandoll wrote:I am puzzled by your claim, too, Cristobell, as we only have Gerry's word for that. I would not trust anyone who spoke about checking his children on a holiday starting at the end of April, but who only put his head through to LOOK into the room for the first time at approx. 9.05 May 3rd.
We can only go by the statements of the McCanns and Tapas group Russiandoll, its all we have. Gerry claims Madeleine was alive at 9.10, therefore if she died in the apartment, it must have happened after that.
Cristobell's words which I have bolded are 100% correct.

Well no, seems to be a flaw in your logic there.

'Gerry claims Madeleine was alive at 9.10, therefore if she died in the apartment, and Gerry told the truth about seeing Madeleine at this time, it must have happened after that.'

- is logically true.

If Madeleine's father gives a statement to say he saw Madeleine at 9.10pm that's vital testimony isn't it? Whether it's true or not is for the police to investigate.

by **Tony Bennett** 26.03.14 10:48

canada12 wrote:
whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
Tony Bennett wrote:
Cristobell wrote:
russiandoll wrote:I am puzzled by your claim, too, Cristobell, as we only have Gerry's word for that. I would not trust anyone who spoke about checking his children on a holiday starting at the end of April, but who only put his head through to LOOK into the room for the first time at approx. 9.05 May 3rd.
We can only go by the statements of the McCanns and Tapas group Russiandoll, its all we have. Gerry claims Madeleine was alive at 9.10, therefore if she died in the apartment, it must have happened after that.
Cristobell's words which I have bolded are 100% correct.
Well no, seems to be a flaw in your logic there.

'Gerry claims Madeleine was alive at 9.10, therefore if she died in the apartment, and Gerry told the truth about seeing Madeleine at this time, it must have happened after that.'

- is logically true.
Therefore...

If it can be proved that Madeleine died in the apartment... then

Either she died after 9.10pm. Or Gerry is lying and she died prior to 9.10pm.

YES.

Which makes DCI Redwood's claim that she may have died in the apartment all the more remarkable.

I personally think that Redwood may be heading towards: "Someone entered the apartment between 9.10pm and 10.00pm and removed Madeleine, who by then was already dead".

by whatliesbehindthesofa 26.03.14 10:51

aquila wrote:
whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
Tony Bennett wrote:
Cristobell wrote:
russiandoll wrote:I am puzzled by your claim, too, Cristobell, as we only have Gerry's word for that. I would not trust anyone who spoke about checking his children on a holiday starting at the end of April, but who only put his head through to LOOK into the room for the first time at approx. 9.05 May 3rd.
We can only go by the statements of the McCanns and Tapas group Russiandoll, its all we have. Gerry claims Madeleine was alive at 9.10, therefore if she died in the apartment, it must have happened after that.
Cristobell's words which I have bolded are 100% correct.

Well no, seems to be a flaw in your logic there.

'Gerry claims Madeleine was alive at 9.10, therefore if she died in the apartment, and Gerry told the truth about seeing Madeleine at this time, it must have happened after that.'

- is logically true.
If Madeleine's father gives a statement to say he saw Madeleine at 9.10pm that's vital testimony isn't it? Whether it's true or not is for the police to investigate.

I'm not denying that, I'm just pointing out a logical truth.

by Guest 26.03.14 10:53

Back to the postponed libel trial for a moment.
Any news about it being resumed, and when?
I have still got an open ticket to Lisbon, extendable
a bit but not indefinitely.

Kindest regards
parapono

by sallypelt 26.03.14 10:56

Snipped from Christobell's post:

"Either she died after 9.10pm. Or Gerry is lying and she died prior to 9.10pm".

Was this the same time he looked down at his daughter and thought "how beautiful" she was, and how lucky he was to have such a beautiful daughter?

by ultimaThule 26.03.14 10:57

parapono wrote:Back to the postponed libel trial for a moment.
Any news about it being resumed, and when?
I have still got an open ticket to Lisbon, extendable
a bit but not indefinitely.

Kindest regards
parapono

No news as yet, parapono. If, as I believe, the Court is evaluating the Wardship it may be some time before the trial resumes.

by canada12 26.03.14 10:58

Tony Bennett wrote:
canada12 wrote:
whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
Tony Bennett wrote:
Cristobell wrote:
russiandoll wrote:I am puzzled by your claim, too, Cristobell, as we only have Gerry's word for that. I would not trust anyone who spoke about checking his children on a holiday starting at the end of April, but who only put his head through to LOOK into the room for the first time at approx. 9.05 May 3rd.
We can only go by the statements of the McCanns and Tapas group Russiandoll, its all we have. Gerry claims Madeleine was alive at 9.10, therefore if she died in the apartment, it must have happened after that.
Cristobell's words which I have bolded are 100% correct.
Well no, seems to be a flaw in your logic there.

'Gerry claims Madeleine was alive at 9.10, therefore if she died in the apartment, and Gerry told the truth about seeing Madeleine at this time, it must have happened after that.'

- is logically true.
Therefore...

If it can be proved that Madeleine died in the apartment... then

Either she died after 9.10pm. Or Gerry is lying and she died prior to 9.10pm.
YES.

Which makes DCI Redwood's claim that she may have died in the apartment all the more remarkable.

I personally think that Redwood may be heading towards: "Someone entered the apartment between 9.10pm and 10.00pm and removed Madeleine, who by then was already dead".

Which may indeed be exactly what happened. Madeleine could have died at any point prior to this. And someone removed her body between 9.10pm and 10.00pm. The next logical steps would be to determine:

a. Did Gerry and Kate know that Madeleine was already dead?
b. Did Gerry and Kate know that her body would be removed at that time?
c. Did Gerry and Kate know who removed the body?

by Cristobell 26.03.14 10:58

parapono wrote:Back to the postponed libel trial for a moment.
Any news about it being resumed, and when?
I have still got an open ticket to Lisbon, extendable
a bit but not indefinitely.

Kindest regards
parapono

Hi Parapono, In my opinion, the libel trial has collapsed due to recent revelations, but according to a Portuguese lady on twitter, both parties have put in requests that are causing the delays.

by Watching 26.03.14 11:06

Cristobell wrote:
Watching wrote:
Cristobell wrote:
russiandoll wrote:I am puzzled by your claim, too, Cristobell, as we only have Gerry's word for that. I would not trust anyone who spoke about checking his children on a holiday starting at the end of April, but who only put his head through to LOOK into the room for the first time at approx. 9.05 May 3rd.
We can only go by the statements of the McCanns and Tapas group Russiandoll, its all we have. Gerry claims Madeleine was alive at 9.10, therefore if she died in the apartment, it must have happened after that.

Morning Cristobell,

I beg to differ it is not 'all we have' We have the good sense given to us to look beyond, and recognise when someone is trying to pull a fast one! To discuss based on what Mr & Mrs have stated is one thing, to state that what they said is 'all we have' WOW!
Top of the morning to you too Watching.

I stand by 'all we have' - we here on this forum are not privy to inside details of the investigation, we must go by the story that is in the public domain. According to the main protagonists in this drama, Gerry was the last person to see Maddie alive.

I could indeed speculate on all sorts of scenarios and probably have done over the years, but you have to work the information that is available, and the information we have, is that Gerry had a proud father moment at 9.10pm - ergo, if Madeleine died in the apartment, then it must have happened in the 50 minutes following, during which time, Matt Oldfield went into the apartment to check, and saw nothing.

That is what I said Cristobell, to have a discussion based on what is the statements given by Mr & Mrs Statements is one thing, to say it is all we have is quite another. There is so much more available to us within the catalogue of inconsistencies and proven lies with which they themselves have provided, that can be worked on without the need for you to even resort to speculation! Which of their versions an individual chooses to believe if any? Mr saying he saw Maddie alive at 9:10 doesn't make it fact but is fine for purpose of that singular topic!

by Watching 26.03.14 11:13

sallypelt wrote:Snipped from Christobell's post:

"Either she died after 9.10pm. Or Gerry is lying and she died prior to 9.10pm".

Was this the same time he looked down at his daughter and thought "how beautiful" she was, and how lucky he was to have such a beautiful daughter?

A statement which later morphed into - how lucky he felt to be the father of three beautiful children. He omitted his two other beautiful children first time around, realised his boob, and amended as Mr does with all his statements when caught out!

by ultimaThule 26.03.14 11:26

Cristobell wrote:
noddy100 wrote:
Cristobell wrote:
PeterMac wrote:As did Archer.
Exactly! And I'm sure there are plenty of others. They probably expected Goncalo Amaral and the other Defendants to pay up, instead they have reaffirmed how flimsy the abduction story is and now it has been revealed that even SY are following the line that Madeleine was dead before she left the apartment.

I noticed with the other cases they usually say the 'libel trial collapsed' - whatever 'collapsed' means, and I wonder if the same has happened in this casse?
I am wondering if SY are gearing up to say maybe MM fell in the apartment and someone took her out and her parents didn't know and assumed she had been taken alive. This could explain the dogs findings and exonerate them
It couldn't Noddy. Cadaverine takes approx 2 hours to develop, and there were strong dog alerts in two places, behind the sofa, and in the wardrobe. It was also detected on 'Cuddle Cat' the toy Kate carried with her as a prop for months on end. They must then find an explanation for the cadaver alerts in the car the McCanns hired 28 days after Madeleine disappeared. That there was an odour in the car is beyond doubt, a neighbour saw the boot open day and night, and the helpful John Wright who also used the car, mentioned the rotting garbage, full nappies and blood dripping meat they regularly carried in the boot.

Not only does death in the apartment implicate the McCanns, it implicates their friends too, Matt especially, who said he did the 9.30 check and all was well. He specifically mentioned that he did not see Maddie, but he also did not see a murder that must have been taking place at the time he made the check. Which could actually put him in the frame for murder, but he only had 5 minutes in which to do it and return to the table, but in fairness, it was 3 minutes longer than an abductor had.

As you have also said,"Madeleine was alive at 9.10 when Gerry saw her, so the murder/cleanup/coverup must have occurred after that, Matt checked on the children at 9.30" and as the GNR was on the scene c11.05pm at which time there was no body or indication of a cleanup, are you saying the 'alerts' given by Eddie the EVRD dog relate to a corpse which was not that of the child who was taken, or are you saying that Eddie's indications of cadaverine in the apartment are not to be relied on, Cristobell?

If Matthew Oldfield "did not see a murder that must have been taking place at the time he made the check" are we to assume that he suffers from astigmatism or, on the basis of your assertions (above) which appear to have been made with some authority, should we conclude that there was no murder and that Madeleine was indeed abducted from the apartment as stated by her parents?

by Woofer 26.03.14 11:29

ultimaThule wrote:
parapono wrote:Back to the postponed libel trial for a moment.
Any news about it being resumed, and when?
I have still got an open ticket to Lisbon, extendable
a bit but not indefinitely.

Kindest regards
parapono
No news as yet, parapono. If, as I believe, the Court is evaluating the Wardship it may be some time before the trial resumes.

Surely Goncalo would not have spoken about the case on Portuguese TV last week if the trial was still in process. Isn`t it illegal to discuss a case publicly while a trial is ongoing?

by Guest 26.03.14 11:35

sallypelt wrote:Snipped from Christobell's post:

"Either she died after 9.10pm. Or Gerry is lying and she died prior to 9.10pm".

Was this the same time he looked down at his daughter and thought "how beautiful" she was, and how lucky he was to have such a beautiful daughter?

Yes, lying in the recovery position

by Woofer 26.03.14 11:40

Portia wrote:
sallypelt wrote:Snipped from Christobell's post:

"Either she died after 9.10pm. Or Gerry is lying and she died prior to 9.10pm".

Was this the same time he looked down at his daughter and thought "how beautiful" she was, and how lucky he was to have such a beautiful daughter?
Yes, lying in the recovery position

Very difficult to do with a pillow under your head.

Libel Trial 7th Jan Postponed - confirmed - Page 12 Images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS0AZaTn7gxjJIMxdymq__vjmVve_08gEAKdh9W4I0UkTXbyvg3IvolJw

Libel Trial 7th Jan Postponed - confirmed - Page 12 Images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS0AZaTn7gxjJIMxdymq__vjmVve_08gEAKdh9W4I0UkTXbyvg3IvolJw

by Cristobell 26.03.14 11:44

Tony Bennett wrote:
canada12 wrote:
whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
Tony Bennett wrote:
Cristobell wrote:
russiandoll wrote:I am puzzled by your claim, too, Cristobell, as we only have Gerry's word for that. I would not trust anyone who spoke about checking his children on a holiday starting at the end of April, but who only put his head through to LOOK into the room for the first time at approx. 9.05 May 3rd.
We can only go by the statements of the McCanns and Tapas group Russiandoll, its all we have. Gerry claims Madeleine was alive at 9.10, therefore if she died in the apartment, it must have happened after that.
Cristobell's words which I have bolded are 100% correct.
Well no, seems to be a flaw in your logic there.

'Gerry claims Madeleine was alive at 9.10, therefore if she died in the apartment, and Gerry told the truth about seeing Madeleine at this time, it must have happened after that.'

- is logically true.
Therefore...

If it can be proved that Madeleine died in the apartment... then

Either she died after 9.10pm. Or Gerry is lying and she died prior to 9.10pm.
YES.

Which makes DCI Redwood's claim that she may have died in the apartment all the more remarkable.

I personally think that Redwood may be heading towards: "Someone entered the apartment between 9.10pm and 10.00pm and removed Madeleine, who by then was already dead".

It does indeed Tony, and I hope by now you are feeling some sense of optimism? If I were you, I would issue proceedings now for the return of anything you have paid to them, as I think the list of creditors will be very long indeed, and imo, you should have priority. Your work in getting the truth of this case into the public domain has been heroic, Tony, it is people like yourself who ensure that justice is done, even in the face of great adversity. Who Knows, perhaps the McCanns may have got away with it all, if the public had continued to receive only positive McCann spin, the ghastly 'Fund' would have thrived and our freedom of speech would have been throttled.

I don't see any way that death in the apartment could have occurred without the parents knowledge. If the death theory emanates from the dogs' signals, (and how could it not?) there are a number of them and all are McCann related. Matt Oldfield made a statement to say that he went into the apartment at 9.30, and all was well. He makes it clear he didn't see Madeleine, but he reported back that all was well. He too is up to his neck in it imo.

by Cristobell 26.03.14 11:51

ultimaThule wrote:
Cristobell wrote:
noddy100 wrote:
Cristobell wrote:
PeterMac wrote:As did Archer.
Exactly! And I'm sure there are plenty of others. They probably expected Goncalo Amaral and the other Defendants to pay up, instead they have reaffirmed how flimsy the abduction story is and now it has been revealed that even SY are following the line that Madeleine was dead before she left the apartment.

I noticed with the other cases they usually say the 'libel trial collapsed' - whatever 'collapsed' means, and I wonder if the same has happened in this casse?
I am wondering if SY are gearing up to say maybe MM fell in the apartment and someone took her out and her parents didn't know and assumed she had been taken alive. This could explain the dogs findings and exonerate them
It couldn't Noddy. Cadaverine takes approx 2 hours to develop, and there were strong dog alerts in two places, behind the sofa, and in the wardrobe. It was also detected on 'Cuddle Cat' the toy Kate carried with her as a prop for months on end. They must then find an explanation for the cadaver alerts in the car the McCanns hired 28 days after Madeleine disappeared. That there was an odour in the car is beyond doubt, a neighbour saw the boot open day and night, and the helpful John Wright who also used the car, mentioned the rotting garbage, full nappies and blood dripping meat they regularly carried in the boot.

Not only does death in the apartment implicate the McCanns, it implicates their friends too, Matt especially, who said he did the 9.30 check and all was well. He specifically mentioned that he did not see Maddie, but he also did not see a murder that must have been taking place at the time he made the check. Which could actually put him in the frame for murder, but he only had 5 minutes in which to do it and return to the table, but in fairness, it was 3 minutes longer than an abductor had.
As you have also said,"Madeleine was alive at 9.10 when Gerry saw her, so the murder/cleanup/coverup must have occurred after that, Matt checked on the children at 9.30" and as the GNR was on the scene c11.05pm at which time there was no body or indication of a cleanup, are you saying the 'alerts' given by Eddie the EVRD dog relate to a corpse which was not that of the child who was taken, or are you saying that Eddie's indications of cadaverine in the apartment are not to be relied on, Cristobell?

If Matthew Oldfield "did not see a murder that must have been taking place at the time he made the check" are we to assume that he suffers from astigmatism or, on the basis of your assertions (above) which appear to have been made with some authority, should we conclude that there was no murder and that Madeleine was indeed abducted from the apartment as stated by her parents?

I am merely pointing out that death in the apartment implicates the parents.

by **Tony Bennett** 26.03.14 12:17

Cristobell wrote:
Tony Bennett wrote:
canada12 wrote:
whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
Tony Bennett wrote:
Cristobell wrote:
russiandoll wrote:I am puzzled by your claim, too, Cristobell, as we only have Gerry's word for that. I would not trust anyone who spoke about checking his children on a holiday starting at the end of April, but who only put his head through to LOOK into the room for the first time at approx. 9.05 May 3rd.
We can only go by the statements of the McCanns and Tapas group Russiandoll, its all we have. Gerry claims Madeleine was alive at 9.10, therefore if she died in the apartment, it must have happened after that.
Cristobell's words which I have bolded are 100% correct.
Well no, seems to be a flaw in your logic there.

'Gerry claims Madeleine was alive at 9.10, therefore if she died in the apartment, and Gerry told the truth about seeing Madeleine at this time, it must have happened after that.'

- is logically true.
Therefore...

If it can be proved that Madeleine died in the apartment... then

Either she died after 9.10pm. Or Gerry is lying and she died prior to 9.10pm.
YES.

Which makes DCI Redwood's claim that she may have died in the apartment all the more remarkable.

I personally think that Redwood may be heading towards: "Someone entered the apartment between 9.10pm and 10.00pm and removed Madeleine, who by then was already dead".
It does indeed Tony, and I hope by now you are feeling some sense of optimism? If I were you, I would issue proceedings now for the return of anything you have paid to them, as I think the list of creditors will be very long indeed, and imo, you should have priority.

I think that would be far too premature!

All Redwood has said is that he and Grange MAY have evidence that Madeleine was dead when she 'left the apartment' (what a curious Redwood phrase! - one of so many).

And, of course, he added that she may not have been abducted.

Significant statements, indeed huge, one could argue.

But who really knows where this Machiaveliian Metropolitan Police Officer is going next with this?

by Doug D 26.03.14 12:33

Cristobell:

"I am merely pointing out that death in the apartment implicates the parents'.

I have to agree.

As soon as the possibility of death in (or before, being moved in & then out again) the apartment is properly investigated, along with the cadaver dogs indications, GM’s timeline and story is completely knackered.

Cadaverine takes a while to develop, (whether it is 45, 90 minutes, or 2 hours doesn’t really matter). A dead body has to start to change, in order to exude cadaver odour, and even with a minimum time of 45 minutes, which is almost certainly not long enough, with Gerry’s ‘proud father’ moment and visit to the bathroom at 9.10, followed by an immediate death at 9.12 as soon as he left the apartment, the body would need to remain behind the sofa till say 9.57, then be moved quickly to the wardrobe in the parents bedroom, (to give the dog something else to scent) before being whooshed out of 5A, just in time for KM’s 10.00 appointment.
However many more patsy’s Redwood or TM can come up with, none can ever stand up to the test of Gerry’s timeline.

Oh, and don't forget that MO popped in half way through just to say hello and see how things were going.

by Cristobell 26.03.14 12:37

Chin chin Tony, SY have left themselves no wriggle room whatsoever with their introduction of death in the apartment theory. Its the very thing the McCanns have spent millions and much energy and calling favours to stamp out. Indeed, DCI Redwood's Portuguese counterpart, Goncalo Amaral was financially ruined for saying the same thing.

In your own case, I know there is a list of things that you cannot say, including calling Madeleine's disappearance a 'mystery'. Such an absurd ruling and one that should be highlighted and ridiculed when this farce is over, as I am sure it will be by those who are opposed to the Royal Charter. When I think of the ruling in your case, it makes my blood boil, I can only imagine what it must do to you!

by ultimaThule 26.03.14 12:48

As the Portuguese police arrived on the scene c11.05pm, and as you unequivocally stated upthread at 10am (which statement led to this particular diversion) that Madeleine was alive at 9.10 when Gerry saw her, so the murder/cleanup/coverup must have occurred after that and that Cadaverine takes approx 2 hours to develop, I must confess to being at something of a loss to understand how 'death in the apartment' necessarily 'implicates the parents' Cristobell.

However, in the interests of getting this thread back on topic as soon as possible, suffice it to say you have convinced me that what appears on occasion to be your tendency to advocate for the McCanns has come about because your default position is to see them as 'nice middle-class parents', whereas others among us view them as anything but.

by Doug D 26.03.14 13:02

UT

No doubt Cristobell will respond as well, but my interpretation of her 'implicating the parents' is that the TM stories cannot possibly fit with the bare minimum time needed for a death, development of cadavarine & then extraction of M. from 5A.