Re: Robert Murat Revisited

by MRNOODLES 20.04.16 22:00

Verdi wrote:I'm never quite sure what to do with Robert Murat, I'll stick him here as it is a revisit.

What a pity Wikipedia can't be 100% relied upon in terms of accuracy. I came across this entry which I don't think I've seen before..

Robert Murat, a suspect in the investigation, has tried to generate his own publicity by selling his story. However, publicist Max Clifford indicated that he would only represent Murat if he was cleared of suspicion of kidnapping...

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Listening to Murat talk in this manner, one wonders whether even the PR guru Max Clifford - who has offered his services to him, if and when he is cleared - can salvage his reputation.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-459316/Madeleine-Is-Robert-Murat-suspect-scapegoat.html#ixzz46P1Y76rq

by Verdi 20.04.16 23:51

MRNOODLES wrote:
Verdi wrote:I'm never quite sure what to do with Robert Murat, I'll stick him here as it is a revisit.

What a pity Wikipedia can't be 100% relied upon in terms of accuracy. I came across this entry which I don't think I've seen before..

Robert Murat, a suspect in the investigation, has tried to generate his own publicity by selling his story. However, publicist Max Clifford indicated that he would only represent Murat if he was cleared of suspicion of kidnapping...

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Listening to Murat talk in this manner, one wonders whether even the PR guru Max Clifford - who has offered his services to him, if and when he is cleared - can salvage his reputation.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-459316/Madeleine-Is-Robert-Murat-suspect-scapegoat.html#ixzz46P1Y76rq

Don't recall ever reading that article - excellent idea to post the link as either a reminder or something newsy. Your quote is shortly followed by..

'But whatever we make of Murat, one thing is plain: he inhabits such a different world from the McCanns - caring parents ]cough!], brilliant medical professionals ]snort!], devout Roman Catholics ]splutter!].'

by kaz 21.04.16 11:59

I think the WAY that GM answered that question was more significant than the words he used. RM being mentioned was dismissed immediately and appeared to be a sensitive / taboo subject to GM, who immediately tried to change the subject and move on.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Even if GM had been told not to comment, if the circumstances were genuine, GM might have said something along the lines of.....'I'm aware of this person but it would seem inappropriate to comment at the moment'......this would have been a more natural answer and less suspicious.

That short video clip of him answering strongly suggested to me that GM at least knew of RM, and importantly the role he had to play, but this is just my own thoughts. RM's confession about all the lies he told regarding his movements that week is a huge red flag, and is very much in keeping with the continued development of something happening much earlier in the week.

Hobs may be best placed to provide more in depth analysis. She is much better at this sort of thing.

It certainly wasn't a normal reaction. But whenever have the MCC been normal?
Possibly Gerry knew OF Murat but didn't actually KNOW him. A bit of a problem to answer when it comes to the UNEXPECTED question, '' Do you know Murat?'

by JohnyT 21.04.16 12:40

.........or he could have simply said yes or no.......
JohnyT

by kaz 21.04.16 17:01

At the time the question was asked I believe that Murat had been made an arguido. The shifting of suspicion from himself suited Gerry ( even Jane Tanner and Charlotte Pennington were doing their level best to incriminate Murat ) so it would have been counter productive to connect himself in any way to someone under suspicion in the disappearance of Madeleine. So why then didn't Gerry just give a straight 'no' in answer to the question? To my way of thinking he WAS aware of Murat's existence but was not a 'friend' of his in any sense of the word. Could Murat have been a 'go between,' a sort of trouble shooter in the affair and the relationship , strictly business ? I think Gerry's problem was that he wasn't sure what he was SUPPOSED to say so bluster was the get out.

by Guest 21.04.16 19:07

It's not rocket science.

He's told what questions to expect and he's ready with "I'm not going to comment on that".

I believe his media advisers were in place at this point.

People are making way too much of this comment.

If I was a lawyer in court I would walk rings around you.

by kaz 22.04.16 10:46

Shame you're not a lawyer then isn't it ? Just think you would be able to walk rings around the McCanns as well and then we could all go home. Oh I do wish I was as clever as you !

by willowthewisp 22.04.16 11:06

kaz wrote:Shame you're not a lawyer then isn't it ? Just think you would be able to walk rings around the McCanns as well and then we could all go home. Oh I do wish I was as clever as you !

Hi Kaz,Bluebag ouch!
Can we please not fall out over words and comments, as this case of a disappearance of Madeleine McCann that has cost the life of one woman already which lead to a public hate campaign against Mrs Brenda Leyland led by Sky News and Martin **unt,shame on them both.

by kaz 22.04.16 11:22

willowthewisp wrote:
kaz wrote:Shame you're not a lawyer then isn't it ? Just think you would be able to walk rings around the McCanns as well and then we could all go home. Oh I do wish I was as clever as you !
Hi Kaz,Bluebag ouch!
Can we please not fall out over words and comments, as this case of a disappearance of Madeleine McCann that has cost the life of one woman already which lead to a public hate campaign against Mrs Brenda Leyland led by Sky News and Martin **unt,shame on them both.

Agree entirely but I think you need to highlight Bluebag's comment to me to put MY reply in context. It IS about Madeleine BUT I can't help wondering why some comments are so summarily rubbished . Are only CERTAIN people allowed to make observations? Isn't that a form of censorship?

by **Tony Bennett** 22.04.16 11:52

kaz wrote:
Agree entirely but I think you need to highlight Bluebag's comment to me to put MY reply in context. It IS about Madeleine BUT I can't help wondering why some comments are so summarily rubbished. Are only CERTAIN people allowed to make observations? Isn't that a form of censorship?

'willowthewisp' is not a Moderator. All opinions are welcome here, even robust ones, so long as they are polite and so long as they are evidenced or have a reasonable basis. Blue Bag is known to sometimes express his views more robustly than most. I agree with him, however, that we can make too much of his 'no comment' reaction to being asked about Murat.

But we are missing a bigger picture about Murat here. The 'no comment' remark is a small point.

Much bigger points are:

1. Who summoned him over to Praia da Luz on Sunday 29 April?

2. Why did he rush over on the early morning flight on Tuesday 1 May?

3. Why did he lie to police at least 17 times about what he was doing the first four days he was there?

4. How was it that he became the No. 1 translator when the 'Tapas 9' were giving their first statements?

and

5. What exactly was discussed at the meeting at his uncle and aunt (Ralph and Sally Eveleigh)'s house, Salcaledas, attended by his mother, his lawyer Francisco Pagarete and Brian Kennedy and Edward Smethurst on 13 November 2007?

Five points just for starters

by willowthewisp 22.04.16 12:21

Hi Mr Tony Bennett, I never claimed to be a moderator,I was just stating it is better not to imply that you have a higher understanding of legal wranglings in a Court of Law and could lead to cause a conflict, which it did,has?
I do not know if Gerry knew Robert Murat before Madeleine was reported missing and concur of the five points you make and to simply state his reply of,"I'm not going to comment on that" is a small point, but it is relevant that before answering he stumbled with a cough as though caught unaware and Yes Clarence Mitchell was in attendance!
Also highly relevant to the same reporter,"Ask the Dogs"Sandra or was that Gerry being flippant?
Perhaps we will learn more if the phone messages/deleted texts and the recipients become known as to who has been involved in this child's disappearance?

by roz 01.06.17 10:45

I have always believed that Robert Murat is a key player in this whole ‘abduction’ scenario.
Jorge Manuel Rocha da Silva (16.5.07) – On Thursday ‘May 3rd they met at the South West bar in Lagos marina at about 11.30. He does not remember whether Robert or Michaela phoned him to ask for the meeting or if they had agreed upon it the day before. The witness and J**** went to the place on foot. When they arrived Michaela and Robert were already there. They talked there for half an hour, but as it was very noisy, Robert suggested they went elsewhere. The four of them left in the VW transporter to Palmares Golf, about 5 minutes away by car, a place where the witness and his son had never been. They remained there conversing for about 3 hours, very much at the insistence of Robert. In spite of the witness and his son being hungry, Robert prolonged the conversation, saying that he was not hungry. Only at about 16.00 did Robert and Michaela drop the witness and his son near to their shop. On that day they had no further contact, neither personally or by phone’.
The first thought that occurred to me after reading this was that Robert Murat is creating an alibi for himself; this non-urgent meeting was prolonged for a reason.
And then I wondered;
Why would he need an alibi?
Was something bad about to happen that Thursday?
Did RM know that something bad was going to happen?
Was something meant to happen that day between 11.30am and 4pm?
Was the ‘abduction alarm’ meant to be sounded that day between 11.30am and 4pm-(possibly from the beach?).
Did something go wrong?
Robert stayed in the home of Michaela in Lagos until returning to Casa Liliana at approx. 8.00pm before the ‘abduction alarm’ was sounded at 10.00pm. RM turned his phone back on about 11.00pm (at approx. the same time as Gerry).
At 11:39pm he made a call to Sergey M (whom he had met in the Baptista café early Wed. morning 2^nd).
What possible ‘business concern’ would RM need to discuss with SM at that time of night?
RM made a call one minute later to Michaela at 11:40pm.
RM said he does not remember having made these calls, nor having spoken to those people although he admits to the police that he must have.

by roz 01.06.17 12:42

I will submit here what I have collated for Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday;

Tuesday 1^st May
After a hastily booked flight RM arrived at 09:30am at the airport in Faro, and was met there by his mother. It appears that they dilly-dallied on the one hour drive back, stopping at two service stations. RM ate a meat pie at one, and drank a milky coffee at the other. They arrived at Casa Liliana in Luz sometime between 11.30 and 12pm. Now he appears to be in a hurry as he does not take in his bags or go in to his mother’s house, but instead says he drove straight to Lagos to see Michaela Walczuch. He does not remember if he or anyone ate anything there in the house, but he drank tea and ‘talked with the entire family, including the father Luis Antonio’. (Does ‘entire family’ mean Michaela’s daughter also?)
He was back at Casa Liliana (quite hungry) at 4.00pm.

Michaela is vague as to who was in the house – Luis came later but left. She does not recall if it was just her, or her and Robert who went at 3.30pm to collect her daughter from school. Luis in his statement (14.5.07) said that apart from the night of 13^th May - ‘he has no memory of the last time when he saw him (RM) or was with him’.
Jorge Manuel Rocha da Silva - He does not remember when Robert returned from the UK, but he knows that Robert and Michaela turned up at this shop on May 1st bank holiday. He remembers that the shop was closed that day. (Did Robert and Michaela tell him this the next day at their meeting)?

In my opinion Robert M did not spend that day in Michaela’s house.
What was RM really doing that day from approx. 11.30am?
Was Michaela with him?
Could this be the day that Madeleine was really ‘taken’?
(One possible meeting place for the ‘handover’ was near the church in Praia da Luz. RM had used this area in the past to meet with Sergey M- statement 16.5.07).
IF Robert M was involved in the removal of Madeleine’s body that day (to a location with a freezer), then an ‘abduction scenario’ would also have to have been put in place (possibly planned for Wednesday or Thursday).
Whatever Robert M was doing, or wherever he went, he was safely finished by 4pm and back in Casa Liliana.

Re toddler crèche sheets for that day Tuesday – I do not believe that that is Kate’s signature signing the twins out at 12.20pm. (This is the day that all the discrepancies started).
Who signed for the twins? Who collected the twins at that time? Was Kate possibly upset about something?

Were the twins separated this night and one of them placed in the cot in Gerry and Kate’s room?
(Maria J Silva–cleaner-states that one cot was in their bedroom the Wednesday morning).
Najoua Chekaya (quiz conductress) stated that she could not remember seeing Kate McCann at the Tapas table at 9.30pm.
Kate McCann's mobile activated several times between 10.16pm and 10.27pm (possibly from inside the apartment).
Did Kate really sleep in their bedroom that night if Madeleine’s body had been removed from inside their wardrobe that day? Did Kate have a sleepless night?
Kate called her friend Amanda early Wednesday Morning-7.36.

by roz 01.06.17 12:42

Wednesday 2^nd May
From his amended statement (10.7.07), we know that Robert went that morning to Lagos to collect Michaela, and they arrived early at the Baptista supermarket/café (approx. 9.40am) for a meeting with Sergey Malinka at 10.00am to discuss Sergey’s designing of the Romigen website. In his previous statement RM had failed to mention this meeting.
(SM -16.5.07- gets the date completely wrong- says they met Monday 30^th,which is not possible).
Did RM and MW meet anyone else there that morning?
Is there anything else of significance that he failed to tell the police?
(The twins were signed in to the crèche by Gerry at 9.10am - Madeleine at 9.20am by Gerry.
From approx. 8am Gerry received several text messages. These were later deleted and denied).

Robert and Michaela then left for Lagos at around 10.30am. They parked the car and decided to walk at 11.00am/11.30am to the house / office of Dr. Francisco Pagarete (solicitor). They had no prior appointment. Fransico P was not there but his girlfriend Sonia was. They agreed to come back later.
They paid a surprise visit to Jorge Manuel Rocha da Silva at his children’s clothes shop in Lagos at 11.00am/11.30am. Jorge, his son, and RM and MW then went to the Taquiler Goncalves café to talk about Jorge’s son possibly reconstructing the Romigen website. They left the café around 1pm (according to Jorge). They went to two cafes according to RM and left the second one at approx. 2pm.
At a little after 2.00pm RM and Michaela had lunch in the Bem Bom restaurant, Lagos.
At 3.30pm they collected Michaela’s daughter from school.
RM phoned his solicitor FP at around 3.44pm. (His phone was possibly turned off after this call).

They again went to Fransico P’s home. They spoke with FP standing beside the VW car. (They did not go in to the office of FP which suggests that matters were non-urgent).
(RM states that on 02 or 03 May, in the afternoon, for matters related with business, he visited two apartments of the same owner, in Lagos. These visits lasted about 20 to 30 minutes and he did them together with Michaela).
RM, MW and the daughter went to Michaela’s house.
He left Michaela's home about 11pm, and drove straight to Casa Liliana.
Why did Robert M not mention being in the Baptista café that morning?
What is obvious to me here is that RM avoids being in Praia de Luz that day from 10.30am onwards spending the whole day with Michaela in and around Lagos, only returning to Casa Liliana at 11.00pm.
Why? Was RM setting up alibis for himself? Was something going to happen in Praia da Luz that day (what better than an alibi with his own solicitor)? Was this the day for the ‘abduction’ to be called? Did RM know this?
From approx. 8am onwards Gerry received 14 text messages. (These were all deleted and denied).

by roz 01.06.17 12:43

Thursday 3^rd May – RM amended his first statement (a total of 17 non-truths told) to now say that he left Casa Liliana about 08:45am. He collected Michaela and they went to a scheduled business meeting together. He does not recall exactly but thinks it was for around 9:30am. They had to wait for the female owner of the tourist complex called "Montinhos de Ouro" in the Espiche region to arrive.
Later he said they went to lunch at the place mentioned in the previous interrogation - a filling-station on the motorway outside Lagos. He does not remember what they ate. After the lunch they went to the marina in Lagos where they met with Jorge S and his son. (This lunch if it did take place was approx. between 10.45am and 11.15am).
Jorge S states that he met with Robert M and Michaela W that day at 11.30am in the South West bar in Lagos marina. He said that Robert and Michaela were already there.
RM amended his first statement to say that they had gone to the marina in Lagos to meet Jorge S and his son. He then said that they went to the Palmares Golf Club. RM seemed to have prolonged this meeting for some reason. He gave Jorge S and his son a lift back, leaving them again at the bus stop next to the post office. From there they proceeded to the school to pick up Michaela’s daughter at approx. 3.30pm. The three went to Michaela's house having arrived by 3:45. They were in Michaela's home until 7.30pm, at which time he left and went directly to Casa Liliana.
The ‘abduction alarm’ was sounded at 10.00pm. We know RM heard sirens.
At 11:39pm he made a call to Sergey M.
What possible ‘business concern’ would RM need to discuss with SM at that time of night?
He made a call one minute later to Michaela at 11:40pm.
RM does not remember making these calls although he admits to the police that he must have.

It looks to me that Robert M worked pretty hard to stay out of Praia da Luz, and to create alibis for himself especially during the afternoon of Wednesday 2^nd. He takes no chances and stays late in Lagos.
He did the same on the afternoon of Thursday 3^{rd –}deliberately prolonging a non-urgent meeting with Jorge S and son in the afternoon. He had returned to his mother’s house in Casa Liliana – before the alarm was sounded. None of Robert M’s ‘alibis’ for the two days were now necessary – apart from Thursday evening.

A bit of a disaster wouldn’t you say Gerry?

by polyenne 01.06.17 16:31

Great work Roz !

Murat was definitely an "asset" (requested by whom ?) and rushed from the UK to be there as early as possible on the Monday. It seems me that, when his presence was initially requested, the abduction plan had yet to be finalized and was clearly a work in progress. He was merely in the required place (PdL) or nearby, awaiting instructions.

As the McCs were due to fly home on Saturday, Thursday evening was pretty much the last full opportunity they had to call the abduction. I think the muddle of Tapas 7/9 statements is the result of a hurried need to get everything in place for the allotted time. Especially as they might all have been ready for an earlier day and an earlier time but the opportunity, for whatever reason, never presented itself.

And then Jez decides to take an evening walk.....DAMN !!

by Phoebe 01.06.17 18:46

If poor Madeleine died on Sun/Mon then surely it is unlikely that her body was kept anywhere near the apartment during the following days? Without refrigeration a body becomes obvious quickly. Supposing she was removed on Tues or Wed. by Murat and the "abduction" scene planned for the night of May 3rd, wouldn't it be logical for Murat to ensure that he spent the night of May 3rd well away from Luz - a night with friends outside the area, in A&E with sudden chest pains which turned out to be indigestion or even a night with Uncle Ralph and Aunt Sally! If Madeleine's body was already dealt with why be anywhere near what he knew was about to become a crime-scene?

by polyenne 01.06.17 21:11

Maybe Murat is a facilitator in that he had access to empty properties that might have contained a refrigerator or knew others who might dispose of the body once the heat had died down.
He needed to be in and around PdL to make the arrangements but perhaps not necessarily hands on and hence alibis could be offered if required

===========

Good posts roz, polyenne & Phoebe. One more thing to put into the mix; Thursday 3rd May 2007 was the day of local elections across Britain, with polling ending of course at 10.00pm that evening. Was that possibly connected to the choice of timing for the abduction alert? Also, when you think about it, this abduction story could not have taken of like a rocket at about 8am Friday morning unless senior media figures e.g. at SKY and the BBC were primed beforehand. Undoubtedly there was a great deal of media preparation before Thursday night. I have a vague idea that James Landale of the BBC was involved in developing the story in the early hours of the Friday morning and I think he once featured in a short programme about how news events developed that night. I can't find it now - Moderator

by polyenne 01.06.17 22:24

I've always thought that many elements were well in place by Thurs night/Fri morning. Not only did these include various personnel (Government, PR, damage limitation, MSM etc) but also included "Investigative aids" (image of pyjamas, image of Madeleine etc)

by jazega 02.06.17 0:19

Tony Bennett wrote:
kaz wrote:
Agree entirely but I think you need to highlight Bluebag's comment to me to put MY reply in context. It IS about Madeleine BUT I can't help wondering why some comments are so summarily rubbished. Are only CERTAIN people allowed to make observations? Isn't that a form of censorship?
'willowthewisp' is not a Moderator. All opinions are welcome here, even robust ones, so long as they are polite and so long as they are evidenced or have a reasonable basis. Blue Bag is known to sometimes express his views more robustly than most. I agree with him, however, that we can make too much of his 'no comment' reaction to being asked about Murat.

But we are missing a bigger picture about Murat here. The 'no comment' remark is a small point.

Much bigger points are:

1. Who summoned him over to Praia da Luz on Sunday 29 April?

2. Why did he rush over on the early morning flight on Tuesday 1 May?

3. Why did he lie to police at least 17 times about what he was doing the first four days he was there?

4. How was it that he became the No. 1 translator when the 'Tapas 9' were giving their first statements?

and

5. What exactly was discussed at the meeting at his uncle and aunt (Ralph and Sally Eveleigh)'s house, Salcaledas, attended by his mother, his lawyer Francisco Pagarete and Brian Kennedy and Edward Smethurst on 13 November 2007?

Five points just for starters

In regard to point 2,what date did RM book his return flight ?

by jazega 02.06.17 1:09

polyenne wrote:Maybe Murat is a facilitator in that he had access to empty properties that might have contained a refrigerator or knew others who might dispose of the body once the heat had died down.
He needed to be in and around PdL to make the arrangements but perhaps not necessarily hands on and hence alibis could be offered if required

===========

Good posts roz, polyenne & Phoebe. One more thing to put into the mix; Thursday 3rd May 2007 was the day of local elections across Britain, with polling ending of course at 10.00pm that evening. Was that possibly connected to the choice of timing for the abduction alert? Also, when you think about it, this abduction story could not have taken of like a rocket at about 8am Friday morning unless senior media figures e.g. at SKY and the BBC were primed beforehand. Undoubtedly there was a great deal of media preparation before Thursday night. I have a vague idea that James Landale of the BBC was involved in developing the story in the early hours of the Friday morning and I think he once featured in a short programme about how news events developed that night. I can't find it now - Moderator

Found the confirmation time and date of his return flight, 01 :57 hrs,Monday 30th April

by roz 02.06.17 19:38

At 7.20am on 14.5.07.the home of Murat (Casa Liliana) P da L was searched. The GNR dog team commanded by First-Sergeant A. Silva used four dogs to search for a trace of Madeleine Beth McCann in the entire property (inside and outside). The results were negative. The entire property was inspected by colleagues from Local Crime Section and Police Science Laboratory, with respective photographic reports made, with special focus on R. Murat's room and the vehicles. The work was completed at 21h00.
In the location were three vehicles
VW Transporter - Several objects were seized; navy jumper, boarding pass dated 1^st May etc
Peugeot 205 - Nothing was found or seized
Hyundai Getz (hired car) - Nothing was found or seized

The home of Michaela W and Luis A in Lagos was searched that same day at around 3.00pm. (No mention is made of the GNR dog team etc being there).
Two vehicles owned by Luis A were also searched;
1. Nissan Patrol (red) 2. Renault Kangoo (yellow) – Nothing was found.
The VW Passat (dark blue) also owned by Luis A was not at that location.

After searching the house and the two vehicles, a ‘team of officers’ then had to go to the home of Joao J to search the VW Passat. Joao signed consent for the search. (No result of VW Passat on file).
In his statement Joao J -14.5.07 said that he worked part-time for Luis Antonio cleaning and disinfecting private pools. (He also does a night shift from 24h00 to 08h00 as watchman at the Valverde campsite). He used the VW Passat business vehicle owned by Luis A for this work. He usually parks the vehicle at Luis A’s house in Lagos after his work and walks home. (On Thursday 3^rd he had parked it there at 12.00pm).
Why was the VW Passat not parked at Luis’s house that day? Why was the VW Passat parked at Joao J’s house? (Joao stopped working for Luis A shortly after this).
Robert Murat, on arrival from Faro airport to his mother’s house in Praia da Luz (Casa Liliana) on Tuesday 1^st May, said he left immediately (11.30am/12.00pm) in his mother’s VW transporter to go to Michaela W’s house in Lagos.
Did Robert M drive to Michaela’s house in Lagos? Had the VW Passat already been returned to the house by Joao that day? Did Robert M borrow the VW Passat? Did RM return in the Passat to Praia da Luz? Did he meet with anyone that day? Had the car been ‘forensically cleaned’ after, just like the McCann’s apartment?
It was only after Eddie and Keela -the EVRD dog (human cadaver) and CSI dog (human blood) were brought in (end July/beginning August 07) that we were alerted as to what had really happened to Madeleine in apartment 5A.

We do not know what Robert was really doing that day - all I know is that Robert M and Michaela W’s statements are very dubious.