Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

by hotrot 20.10.13 18:19

Oooh I have only just joined this forum but c'mon - a slight advantage over a very experienced Detective who poured over this case at least 8 hours a day for about six months? Surely, surely not! This is startlingly disrespectful towards an amazing man who has given his everything! I totally honour Snr Amaral's work on this case. Anyone else?!

by sallypelt 20.10.13 18:21

Lots of new posters signing up to debate this issue

by galena 20.10.13 18:25

Can anyone remind me of the exact time of the Smith sighting?

by hotrot 20.10.13 18:25

Yes - I joined to submit my vote!
I submitted "An as yet unidentified man........"
However, gut feeling goes with "GM"
But rationale and pragmatism prevents me from pressing that button!

by plebgate 20.10.13 18:25

hotrot wrote:Oooh I have only just joined this forum but c'mon - a slight advantage over a very experienced Detective who poured over this case at least 8 hours a day for about six months? Surely, surely not! This is startlingly disrespectful towards an amazing man who has given his everything! I totally honour Snr Amaral's work on this case. Anyone else?!

I don't think Tony is being disrespectful. He is giving his opinion, nothing more based on postings on different forums and more info. coming to the fore.

We have all on this forum said how much we admire Mr. A. and Tony has not said or implied that he doesn't respect him.

We post our opinions, people make their own minds what they think or not, but to imply that someone is being disrespectful is not correct imo.

Welcome btw.

by Woofer 20.10.13 18:27

Tony Bennett wrote:
Woofer wrote:Gosh I must be naive - do some people actually offer to be patsies?
Very much so. There have been a number of instances of willing 'patsies' volunteering to do 'time' in prison in the UK in place of someone else. That is, they admit to a crime they haven't done.

Usually, of course, a sum of ££££ is negotioated with the actual criminal for providing this service...

But wasn't he wealthy already? No need surely. I can understand someone agreeing to be falsely accused and libelled so they can claim massive damages though.

by Guest 20.10.13 18:27

galena wrote:Can anyone remind me of the exact time of the Smith sighting?

I know that they had just left a bar or restaurant and had a receipt timed at 9.55.

by Estelle 20.10.13 18:29

hotrot wrote:Oooh I have only just joined this forum but c'mon - a slight advantage over a very experienced Detective who poured over this case at least 8 hours a day for about six months? Surely, surely not! This is startlingly disrespectful towards an amazing man who has given his everything! I totally honour Snr Amaral's work on this case. Anyone else?!

There are few people who do not admire the work of Goncalo Amaral except the pro-McCanns.

However, as Tony has said, we have been putting more pieces of the jigsaw together ever since 2/10/07 often with differing opinions, of course - especially once the files were released and translated in 2008.

It is very likely that Amaral has been doing that too ever since. But he could not speculate in his book. He had to stick to the case files.

They wasted so much time pursuing possible abductors, they were denied medical and bank records, they did not examine the phone or creche records in depth and so on.

by galena 20.10.13 18:33

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:
galena wrote:Can anyone remind me of the exact time of the Smith sighting?
I know that they had just left a bar or restaurant and had a receipt timed at 9.55.

Thanks a lot. I thought it was about 10ish. The problem I have is that was when Kate announced that Madeleine was missing apparently saying 'they'e taken her!'. Surely Gerry was there as well?

by hotrot 20.10.13 18:34

Hi and thanks for the welcome.
I felt this was disrespectful. Regardless of the admiration, the statement that he is 'slightly more advantaged' than Goncalo for me, was jarring.
However, this after all, is only my opinion - perhaps no one else's.
Thank you for replying!

by plebgate 20.10.13 18:35

Woofer wrote:
Tony Bennett wrote:
Woofer wrote:Gosh I must be naive - do some people actually offer to be patsies?
Very much so. There have been a number of instances of willing 'patsies' volunteering to do 'time' in prison in the UK in place of someone else. That is, they admit to a crime they haven't done.

Usually, of course, a sum of ££££ is negotioated with the actual criminal for providing this service...
But wasn't he wealthy already? No need surely. I can understand someone agreeing to be falsely accused and libelled so they can claim massive damages though.

Some people have secrets they do not want to be told, all sorts of reasons someone will act as a patsy not just money.

by Estelle 20.10.13 18:37

Woofer wrote:
Tony Bennett wrote:
Woofer wrote:Gosh I must be naive - do some people actually offer to be patsies?
Very much so. There have been a number of instances of willing 'patsies' volunteering to do 'time' in prison in the UK in place of someone else. That is, they admit to a crime they haven't done.

Usually, of course, a sum of ££££ is negotioated with the actual criminal for providing this service...
But wasn't he wealthy already? No need surely. I can understand someone agreeing to be falsely accused and libelled so they can claim massive damages though.

IMO Murat was not personally wealthy but he came from a wealthy and well-connected family - the Symingtons.

by Woofer 20.10.13 18:38

hotrot wrote:Oooh I have only just joined this forum but c'mon - a slight advantage over a very experienced Detective who poured over this case at least 8 hours a day for about six months? Surely, surely not! This is startlingly disrespectful towards an amazing man who has given his everything! I totally honour Snr Amaral's work on this case. Anyone else?!

Welcome hotrot.

As plebgate said Tony has respect for GAs work and went out of his way to meet up with him. Tony has also reminded everyone that a lot has happened since 2nd October 2007. Its surely good to have one's own thoughts on things.

by Guest 20.10.13 18:39

It's news to me that TB and GA have met?

by sallypelt 20.10.13 18:41

galena wrote:
No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:
galena wrote:Can anyone remind me of the exact time of the Smith sighting?
I know that they had just left a bar or restaurant and had a receipt timed at 9.55.
Thanks a lot. I thought it was about 10ish. The problem I have is that was when Kate announced that Madeleine was missing apparently saying 'they'e taken her!'. Surely Gerry was there as well?

This is where the confusion appears to be. There are some reports that people heard someone calling "Madeleine, as early as 9:30. Others have said that the T9's table was empty around 9:40. This is where I am cautiously optimistic about the CW programme. More people are needed to say exactly what was what, on the night of 3rd May 2007.

by Woofer 20.10.13 18:41

plebgate wrote:
Woofer wrote:
Tony Bennett wrote:
Woofer wrote:Gosh I must be naive - do some people actually offer to be patsies?
Very much so. There have been a number of instances of willing 'patsies' volunteering to do 'time' in prison in the UK in place of someone else. That is, they admit to a crime they haven't done.

Usually, of course, a sum of ££££ is negotioated with the actual criminal for providing this service...
But wasn't he wealthy already? No need surely. I can understand someone agreeing to be falsely accused and libelled so they can claim massive damages though.
Some people have secrets they do not want to be told, all sorts of reasons someone will act as a patsy not just money.

Yep gotcha!

by Estelle 20.10.13 18:45

sallypelt wrote:
galena wrote:
No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:
galena wrote:Can anyone remind me of the exact time of the Smith sighting?
I know that they had just left a bar or restaurant and had a receipt timed at 9.55.
Thanks a lot. I thought it was about 10ish. The problem I have is that was when Kate announced that Madeleine was missing apparently saying 'they'e taken her!'. Surely Gerry was there as well?
This is where the confusion appears to be. There are some reports that people heard someone calling "Madeleine, as early as 9:30. Others have said that the T9's table was empty around 9:40. This is where I am cautiously optimistic about the CW programme. More people are needed to say exactly what was what, on the night of 3rd May 2007.

Good point. I need some help here as I remember that there was a waiter who made a statement then went back to the UK and the next year he made another statement and he corrected what he had said bringing all forward an hour. Does anyone remember this and can find his statements please?

by Woofer 20.10.13 18:46

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:It's news to me that TB and GA have met?

I've seen a piccie of them together I'm sure. Don't tell me I dreamt it.

by Guest 20.10.13 18:48

Let's wait for Tony to say yay or nay!

If I'm wrong, I'll blame a senior moment!

by Woofer 20.10.13 18:52

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:Let's wait for Tony to say yay or nay!

If I'm wrong, I'll blame a senior moment!

You've got me worried now. Am I getting confused with GAs meeting with Pat and Tony's meeting with Pat.
Could be a senior moment on my part.

by Estelle 20.10.13 18:54

Woofer wrote:
No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:It's news to me that TB and GA have met?
I've seen a piccie of them together I'm sure. Don't tell me I dreamt it.

Amaral spoke at a conference that Tony organised in 2009.

http://www.examiner.com/article/goncalo-amaral-to-speak-at-madeleine-mccann-conference

by sallypelt 20.10.13 18:55

Estelle wrote:
sallypelt wrote:
galena wrote:
No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:
galena wrote:Can anyone remind me of the exact time of the Smith sighting?
I know that they had just left a bar or restaurant and had a receipt timed at 9.55.
Thanks a lot. I thought it was about 10ish. The problem I have is that was when Kate announced that Madeleine was missing apparently saying 'they'e taken her!'. Surely Gerry was there as well?
This is where the confusion appears to be. There are some reports that people heard someone calling "Madeleine, as early as 9:30. Others have said that the T9's table was empty around 9:40. This is where I am cautiously optimistic about the CW programme. More people are needed to say exactly what was what, on the night of 3rd May 2007.
Good point. I need some help here as I remember that there was a waiter who made a statement then went back to the UK and the next year he made another statement and he corrected what he had said bringing all forward an hour. Does anyone remember this and can find his statements please?

I have also read that that an employee of Kelly's Bar, that the Smiths had visited (receipts provided 5/6 months later) couldn't remember the Smiths being there. Now, there were NINE OF THEM.

This is taken from the statement of the Kelly's Bar employee:

Inquiry carried out by Inspectors Rui Fernandes and Ricardo Paiva

Description and results of Inquiry

On this date at about 15.00 we went to Kelly's Bar, located in Rua da Calheta, in Praia da Luz. At the site we were received by an employee of the bar identified as L***** A**** M**** who had been on duty on the night of 3rd May 2007.

When questioned whether on the night in question she remembered the visit to the bar by witness Martin Smith and his family, she replied that she does not remember given the lapse of time between the events and because the bar is daily frequented by dozens of clients of different nationalities.

All the available documentation was requested concerning the expenses in the bar on the night of 3rd May 2007 as we were given the cash register from which photocopies were made referring to the period between 20.00 and 24.00, which is annexed to this report.

Signed

Ricardo Paiva

Annexes

Edited to add that Smith appears to be another one whose memory gets better with the passing of time

by Guest 20.10.13 18:57

Estelle wrote:
Woofer wrote:
No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:It's news to me that TB and GA have met?
I've seen a piccie of them together I'm sure. Don't tell me I dreamt it.
Amaral spoke at a conference that Tony organised in 2009.

http://www.examiner.com/article/goncalo-amaral-to-speak-at-madeleine-mccann-conference

I don't believe that ever happened. I'm sure that GA has never been to the UK.

My hat is waiting to be eaten if I'm wrong!

by logical 20.10.13 18:59

I agree with you Hotrot Tony obviously thinks hes more knowledgable about this entire case than Mr Amaral is.
Although gone from the pj over 5yrs, I would say Mr Amaral still has very good friends in the pj and further up the ladder.

I think Tony is being very disrespctful to the entire CREDIBLE Smith family and Tony says he would hate to think the Smith family fabricated the sighting
well thats exactly what he thinks and has been casting aspersions on the entire Smith family including a 12 year old child on this and other threads in a manner in which we could expect from a PRO disregarding what Mr Amaral and the Smiths local Police inspector had to say about them.

by Estelle 20.10.13 19:03

Estelle wrote:
sallypelt wrote:
galena wrote:
No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:
galena wrote:Can anyone remind me of the exact time of the Smith sighting?
I know that they had just left a bar or restaurant and had a receipt timed at 9.55.
Thanks a lot. I thought it was about 10ish. The problem I have is that was when Kate announced that Madeleine was missing apparently saying 'they'e taken her!'. Surely Gerry was there as well?
This is where the confusion appears to be. There are some reports that people heard someone calling "Madeleine, as early as 9:30. Others have said that the T9's table was empty around 9:40. This is where I am cautiously optimistic about the CW programme. More people are needed to say exactly what was what, on the night of 3rd May 2007.
Good point. I need some help here as I remember that there was a waiter who made a statement then went back to the UK and the next year he made another statement and he corrected what he had said bringing all forward an hour. Does anyone remember this and can find his statements please?

I have found a whole page of statements on this link:

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_INFORMATION.htm

OFFICIAL INQUIRY FILES and DOCUMENTS
TIMELINE INFORMATION

Sitemap

This information belongs to the Ministério Público in Portimão, Portugal.
It was released to the public on 4 August 2008 in accordance with Portuguese Law

This is just one of them:

Between 21.30 and 22: Fitness instructor/Waiter J. R. S. went over to the table and joked with (Diane Webster): "They've left you alone?" She responded more of less with these words: "No, they went to see if the little girl was there." I responded that I hoped they would find her somewhere in the apartment. At saying this, I saw the man. Who I knew later to be Madeleine's father, running to the pool and to the children's play area in the Tapas zone as if looking for someone. It immediately hit me that after talking to the older woman, that the little girl had not been found. I offered to alert the workers at the Millennium Restaurant and the man agreed. He then left again running to continue searching. I believe that this was between 21H30 and 22H00 but do not remember with certainty.

Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Who is 'Smith-man'? (MULTIPLE CHOICE - You can vote for more than one answer)