Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)
The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™ :: British Police / Government Interference :: Smithman: Crimewatch Reconstruction and the appeal for new info / suspects
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Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)
Why would Smithman want to be caught on CCTV and identified?finch wrote:Does anyone know if the hotel Estrella da Luz was on the way Smithman took that night? If so, isn't it possible he assumed there was CCTV and that he would be seen? The fact that the PJ did not investigate that right away, was maybe unforseen.
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Sockpuppet- Posts : 188
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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)
Smithman now gives the abductor only 4 or five minutes between the last Tapasnik crossing the car park towards the bar and NOT seeing shutters smashed, the window wide open, curtains whooshing, people and cars around and so on - and Kate's visit.
He cannot now use the patio door to enter or exit, because of the little gate and child security gate, which were both closed - or Kate would have told us (perhaps ! !)
So it has to be through the front, and to organise the window takes more time than using a front door key. In any event even Mitchell admits the window was not used.
BUT
Kate smells nothing when she enters. So Edgar's Victorian melodrama Chloroform or ether, ( we now know he doesn't have O level Chemistry, by the way) is out of the window - as it were.
So he is left with giving three children injections, which for those who understand children is not altogether believable, using a substance unknown to medical science, or waking them all to administer by mouth, again a substance unknown to medical science,
And he has three minutes to complete it and get out. And they have to be comatose within that time.
And the twins must then sleep for 10 hours and wake with no after effects, having been comprehensively neglected by no fewer than TWO qualified anaesthetists, plus an assortment of others who claim to have medical training.
With Tannerman there was half an hour or so during which any drug could have taken effect.
Now there isn't.
He cannot now use the patio door to enter or exit, because of the little gate and child security gate, which were both closed - or Kate would have told us (perhaps ! !)
So it has to be through the front, and to organise the window takes more time than using a front door key. In any event even Mitchell admits the window was not used.
BUT
Kate smells nothing when she enters. So Edgar's Victorian melodrama Chloroform or ether, ( we now know he doesn't have O level Chemistry, by the way) is out of the window - as it were.
So he is left with giving three children injections, which for those who understand children is not altogether believable, using a substance unknown to medical science, or waking them all to administer by mouth, again a substance unknown to medical science,
And he has three minutes to complete it and get out. And they have to be comatose within that time.
And the twins must then sleep for 10 hours and wake with no after effects, having been comprehensively neglected by no fewer than TWO qualified anaesthetists, plus an assortment of others who claim to have medical training.
With Tannerman there was half an hour or so during which any drug could have taken effect.
Now there isn't.
Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)
There was no CCTV there. Why does everyone appear to think that the PJ didn't think of that?Sockpuppet wrote:Why would Smithman want to be caught on CCTV and identified?finch wrote:Does anyone know if the hotel Estrella da Luz was on the way Smithman took that night? If so, isn't it possible he assumed there was CCTV and that he would be seen? The fact that the PJ did not investigate that right away, was maybe unforseen.
It does annoy me when the bl.......ing obvious is pointed out over and over again. It's in the files. Available to all who wish to read them. Free of charge. On the internet. On several sites easily found via Google.....
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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)
I assume you quoted me by mistake, I didn't say there was :)tigger wrote:There was no CCTV there. Why does everyone appear to think that the PJ didn't think of that?Sockpuppet wrote:Why would Smithman want to be caught on CCTV and identified?finch wrote:Does anyone know if the hotel Estrella da Luz was on the way Smithman took that night? If so, isn't it possible he assumed there was CCTV and that he would be seen? The fact that the PJ did not investigate that right away, was maybe unforseen.
It does annoy me when the bl.......ing obvious is pointed out over and over again. It's in the files. Available to all who wish to read them. Free of charge. On the internet. On several sites easily found via Google.....
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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)
With all due respect to new members - but, it is sometimes a bit tiring, when new questions or ideas are being brought up, whereas a genuine read of available genuine information is, well, available ...
No offense, meant. And definitely not pointing towards obstruction of the debate, but ... well, again, some of us are as well-versed on this case as an elder on the bible
No offense, meant. And definitely not pointing towards obstruction of the debate, but ... well, again, some of us are as well-versed on this case as an elder on the bible
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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)
But there was a CCTV camera on the Smithman route. It's shown on the video with Paul Luckman. (Was that his name?)
However it wasn't checked in the beginning and when enquiries were made, the tapes had been wiped. Amaral was apparently furious that his officers had missed it in the first place.
However it wasn't checked in the beginning and when enquiries were made, the tapes had been wiped. Amaral was apparently furious that his officers had missed it in the first place.
Lance De Boils- Posts : 988
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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)
Yes, you are right Lane there was they pointed it out.Lance De Boils wrote:But there was a CCTV camera on the Smithman route. It's shown on the video with Paul Luckman. (Was that his name?)
However it wasn't checked in the beginning and when enquiries were made, the tapes had been wiped. Amaral was apparently furious that his officers had missed it in the first place.
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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)
Can members who have been here a long time please appreciate there are a lot of new people joining here, from links given, ie Katie Hopkins etc., who know very little about this case, so please can everyone be a little patient with them and just point out any mistakes and perhaps direct them to a relevant thread.
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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)
I find it strange that it had been wiped..If I remember correctly they said it was policy to wipe after '48 hours'...however it was also said that nearby complexes etc, were aware a child had apparently gone missing...why on earth would you wipe your cctv footage, knowing that its quite possible it would be wanting to be viewed at some stage??Lance De Boils wrote:But there was a CCTV camera on the Smithman route. It's shown on the video with Paul Luckman. (Was that his name?)
However it wasn't checked in the beginning and when enquiries were made, the tapes had been wiped. Amaral was apparently furious that his officers had missed it in the first place.
thetruthbeknown- Posts : 273
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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)
Quite!thetruthbeknown wrote:I find it strange that it had been wiped..If I remember correctly they said it was policy to wipe after '48 hours'...however it was also said that nearby complexes etc, were aware a child had apparently gone missing...why on earth would you wipe your cctv footage, knowing that its quite possible it would be wanting to be viewed at some stage??Lance De Boils wrote:But there was a CCTV camera on the Smithman route. It's shown on the video with Paul Luckman. (Was that his name?)
However it wasn't checked in the beginning and when enquiries were made, the tapes had been wiped. Amaral was apparently furious that his officers had missed it in the first place.
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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)
Maybe the wiping is done automatically and they didn't think to keep the footage? I mean, I imagine most businesses wouldn't bother unless the police specifically asked for it.thetruthbeknown wrote:I find it strange that it had been wiped..If I remember correctly they said it was policy to wipe after '48 hours'...however it was also said that nearby complexes etc, were aware a child had apparently gone missing...why on earth would you wipe your cctv footage, knowing that its quite possible it would be wanting to be viewed at some stage??Lance De Boils wrote:But there was a CCTV camera on the Smithman route. It's shown on the video with Paul Luckman. (Was that his name?)
However it wasn't checked in the beginning and when enquiries were made, the tapes had been wiped. Amaral was apparently furious that his officers had missed it in the first place.
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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)
A lot of CCTV cameral are on a loop and when at the end just record over the old stuff. Don't forget Mr Smith didn't contact PJ straight away, some time had elapsed.thetruthbeknown wrote:I find it strange that it had been wiped..If I remember correctly they said it was policy to wipe after '48 hours'...however it was also said that nearby complexes etc, were aware a child had apparently gone missing...why on earth would you wipe your cctv footage, knowing that its quite possible it would be wanting to be viewed at some stage??Lance De Boils wrote:But there was a CCTV camera on the Smithman route. It's shown on the video with Paul Luckman. (Was that his name?)
However it wasn't checked in the beginning and when enquiries were made, the tapes had been wiped. Amaral was apparently furious that his officers had missed it in the first place.
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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)
I quite agree Candyfloss. (eta: With a few posts back, now!)
I remember being "attacked" when I first joined this forum. I was assumed to be a "troll" just because I was new here. However, what people failed to realise is that I've been on other fora since day one (MF, 3As, MCF etc). I had just "migrated" here.
I was an "old-timer" from elsewhere, so know how these places operate, generally.
However, there will be others who have just delved into this case and forum-land for the first time.
I would like to make some suggestions:
1. Please remember that some people will be genuinely new to much of the information here. There is an awful lot of data and the vast majority of it has never been covered by the news media.
2. If posters are perceived to be trying to derail a topic of discussion, please don't bother getting into tit-for-tat arguments. Just completely ignore them. Or discuss it by private messaging.
3. If a poster asks a question that you are fed up with answering/reading about, just skim over it. Someone else will usually reply.
4. Remember that behind the screens we are (mostly) all human. We sometimes type things we later regret. We make mistakes. We have things going on in our "real" lives that affect our mood and reasoning. We will have different opinions about different matters.
And that's all great - for what a boring place this would be otherwise.
I remember being "attacked" when I first joined this forum. I was assumed to be a "troll" just because I was new here. However, what people failed to realise is that I've been on other fora since day one (MF, 3As, MCF etc). I had just "migrated" here.
I was an "old-timer" from elsewhere, so know how these places operate, generally.
However, there will be others who have just delved into this case and forum-land for the first time.
I would like to make some suggestions:
1. Please remember that some people will be genuinely new to much of the information here. There is an awful lot of data and the vast majority of it has never been covered by the news media.
2. If posters are perceived to be trying to derail a topic of discussion, please don't bother getting into tit-for-tat arguments. Just completely ignore them. Or discuss it by private messaging.
3. If a poster asks a question that you are fed up with answering/reading about, just skim over it. Someone else will usually reply.
4. Remember that behind the screens we are (mostly) all human. We sometimes type things we later regret. We make mistakes. We have things going on in our "real" lives that affect our mood and reasoning. We will have different opinions about different matters.
And that's all great - for what a boring place this would be otherwise.
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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)
CCTV can be recorded and kept otherwise they would be no use to anyone..would be something I would do if in a nearby business and had heard of an event like that..at least kept it for a few weeks, or I would of asked if the footage was required? Wasnt this place very near to the complex, if I remember correctly?...obviously an abductor would take some route..id think most businesses would have thought the same.candyfloss wrote:A lot of CCTV cameral are on a loop and when at the end just record over the old stuff. Don't forget Mr Smith didn't contact PJ straight away, some time had elapsed.thetruthbeknown wrote:I find it strange that it had been wiped..If I remember correctly they said it was policy to wipe after '48 hours'...however it was also said that nearby complexes etc, were aware a child had apparently gone missing...why on earth would you wipe your cctv footage, knowing that its quite possible it would be wanting to be viewed at some stage??Lance De Boils wrote:But there was a CCTV camera on the Smithman route. It's shown on the video with Paul Luckman. (Was that his name?)
However it wasn't checked in the beginning and when enquiries were made, the tapes had been wiped. Amaral was apparently furious that his officers had missed it in the first place.
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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)
It is a real shame about the CCTV footage being lost.
We'll never know now why it didn't survive. It could well have been on a loop as others have suggested.
Or it might not.
But the cameras were quite visible, not tucked away anywhere out of sight.
Surely a genuine adbuctor would never have walked right past them? But then, a genuine abductor would surely have had a vehicle near the apartment for a quick getaway, and wouldn't have decided to go for a walk around town with the child....
We'll never know now why it didn't survive. It could well have been on a loop as others have suggested.
Or it might not.
But the cameras were quite visible, not tucked away anywhere out of sight.
Surely a genuine adbuctor would never have walked right past them? But then, a genuine abductor would surely have had a vehicle near the apartment for a quick getaway, and wouldn't have decided to go for a walk around town with the child....
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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)
As you say, you'd think most people would have made a point of keeping CCTV footage, wouldn't you? Hard to believe that people would have been unaware of the massive story breaking in that small town.thetruthbeknown wrote:CCTV can be recorded and kept otherwise they would be no use to anyone..would be something I would do if in a nearby business and had heard of an event like that..at least kept it for a few weeks, or I would of asked if the footage was required? Wasnt this place very near to the complex, if I remember correctly?...obviously an abductor would take some route..id think most businesses would have thought the same.
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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)
I agree too with Candyfloss and Lance [a few posts back]. I would just hope that the real "newbies" would ask questions rather than pose old, derailed, eliminated theories. Having said that, it can sometimes be helpful having to think about and counter such theories again ... Let's just agree to disagree, whenever necessary. And continue our quest to Justice for Madeleine. Which, IMO!, is going to be very soon, as I can hear the walls crumbling ...
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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)
Yes, plus I seem to remember reading that some staff and holidaymakers did go to surrounding areas to look. I cant see that they wouldnt have been made aware fairly early on. Unless of course they viewed it and decided nothing there??Lance De Boils wrote:As you say, you'd think most people would have made a point of keeping CCTV footage, wouldn't you? Hard to believe that people would have been unaware of the massive story breaking in that small town.
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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)
I agree Châtelaine - its often helpful to go over old ground.
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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)
Re the CCTV footage no longer being available, assuming it was recorded over and not actually wiped, might it not still somehow be accessible?
A bit like if you know what you are doing you can find stuff on a hard drive which has been deleted?
Or is it a different system? Sorry, I'm not very techie ..... and I imagine the PJ would have thought of that at the time .... ??
A bit like if you know what you are doing you can find stuff on a hard drive which has been deleted?
Or is it a different system? Sorry, I'm not very techie ..... and I imagine the PJ would have thought of that at the time .... ??
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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)
Im not sure how cctv imaging works, or if you can use data recovery with it. Would be interesting to know though.nobodythereeither wrote:Re the CCTV footage no longer being available, assuming it was recorded over and not actually wiped, might it not still somehow be accessible?
A bit like if you know what you are doing you can find stuff on a hard drive which has been deleted?
Or is it a different system? Sorry, I'm not very techie ..... and I imagine the PJ would have thought of that at the time .... ??
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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)
I guess that depends on how modern the system is. If it was the old fashioned video cassette type, then I would think no chance.
Lance De Boils- Posts : 988
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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)
Sounds like Smithman is going to be a deceased ex employee of the Ocean Club, according to CM this morning....
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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)
What do you mean? Have I missed something?Silver Shuffle wrote:Sounds like Smithman is going to be a deceased ex employee of the Ocean Club, according to CM this morning....
Could you expand on that? Thanks!
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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)
Here...nobodythereeither wrote:What do you mean? Have I missed something?Silver Shuffle wrote:Sounds like Smithman is going to be a deceased ex employee of the Ocean Club, according to CM this morning....
Could you expand on that? Thanks!
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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)
Thanks Candyfloss, I hadn't seen that thread yet.candyfloss wrote:Here...nobodythereeither wrote:What do you mean? Have I missed something?Silver Shuffle wrote:Sounds like Smithman is going to be a deceased ex employee of the Ocean Club, according to CM this morning....
Could you expand on that? Thanks!
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Oh dear, more reading .....
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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)
as its relevant to this thread thought id reiterate my post on the other thread regarding 'speculation' on developments regarding 'Smithman':
My take on the Smithman development (if it can be called that)
1. This does not come from PJ, no identity would be revealed, there is a secrecy order on any developments
2. As both SY and PJ have been doing reviews and sharing information, Smithman sighting has been known about at least 2 years by both, but was not seen by itself as significant enough to warrant an immediate reopening
3. PJ said in April 2012 that there was no intention of reopening at that time, it would only be reopened on significant evidence, not hypothesis..IMO the evidence that caused the reopening to be allowed, is more then just Smithman...I think, even with damning evidence, every other possibility has to be accounted for. Tannerman is said to be accounted for..maybe now Smithman may have been identified and accounted for? Anyone want to offer another sighting of some other abductor??? No?? Then lets get to the truth shall we? Maybe?
Im sorry if this has been covered already, my pc is playing up a bit and pages are taking an age to load [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
My take on the Smithman development (if it can be called that)
1. This does not come from PJ, no identity would be revealed, there is a secrecy order on any developments
2. As both SY and PJ have been doing reviews and sharing information, Smithman sighting has been known about at least 2 years by both, but was not seen by itself as significant enough to warrant an immediate reopening
3. PJ said in April 2012 that there was no intention of reopening at that time, it would only be reopened on significant evidence, not hypothesis..IMO the evidence that caused the reopening to be allowed, is more then just Smithman...I think, even with damning evidence, every other possibility has to be accounted for. Tannerman is said to be accounted for..maybe now Smithman may have been identified and accounted for? Anyone want to offer another sighting of some other abductor??? No?? Then lets get to the truth shall we? Maybe?
Im sorry if this has been covered already, my pc is playing up a bit and pages are taking an age to load [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)
Kind of puzzled by this comment. Surely they've known about this 'new evidence' since the Smiths came forward in 2007?thetruthbeknown wrote:as its relevant to this thread thought id reiterate my post on the other thread regarding 'speculation' on developments regarding 'Smithman':
My take on the Smithman development (if it can be called that)
1. This does not come from PJ, no identity would be revealed, there is a secrecy order on any developments
2. As both SY and PJ have been doing reviews and sharing information, Smithman sighting has been known about at least 2 years by both, but was not seen by itself as significant enough to warrant an immediate reopening
3. PJ said in April 2012 that there was no intention of reopening at that time, it would only be reopened on significant evidence, not hypothesis..IMO the evidence that caused the reopening to be allowed, is more then just Smithman...I think, even with damning evidence, every other possibility has to be accounted for. Tannerman is said to be accounted for..maybe now Smithman may have been identified and accounted for? Anyone want to offer another sighting of some other abductor??? No?? Then lets get to the truth shall we? Maybe?
Im sorry if this has been covered already, my pc is playing up a bit and pages are taking an age to load [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)
I was refferring to the review..the Smiths statements had been taken and noted in 2007, but I think proceedings were mainly thwarted by PIs, McCanns and their spin, the focus was deliberately guided to Tannerman. The case was shelved because of the lack of evidence, which I believe was hampered.galena wrote:Kind of puzzled by this comment. Surely they've known about this 'new evidence' since the Smiths came forward in 2007?
But for the new 'efits' and the follow up of the Smith sighting, that had been established during the review. However, was not 'significant' enough for a reopening in 2012. IMO
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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)
I have to say that if the efits are all they have it hardly seems worth re-opening the case. Efits done weeks later by witnesses who said at the time they wouldn't be able to identify the man they saw immediately afterwards?thetruthbeknown wrote:I was refferring to the review..the Smiths statements had been taken and noted in 2007, but I think proceedings were mainly thwarted by PIs, McCanns and their spin, the focus was deliberately guided to Tannerman. The case was shelved because of the lack of evidence, which I believe was hampered.galena wrote:Kind of puzzled by this comment. Surely they've known about this 'new evidence' since the Smiths came forward in 2007?
But for the new 'efits' and the follow up of the Smith sighting, that had been established during the review. However, was not 'significant' enough for a reopening in 2012. IMO
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» Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)
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» SMITHMAN 4: A summary of discrepancies in what the Smiths say about their 'sighting'
» Deadwood: The police "are moving forward - and heading back to zero" - scepticism by Dan Hodges in the Daily Telegraph
» Criminal Profiler Pat Brown will be heading to Portugal on February 6th (2012)
» Martin Smith's evidence was considered by the PJ to be 'highly contradictory...this type of witness does not deserve credibility" 24 Horas, 7.7.2008
The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™ :: British Police / Government Interference :: Smithman: Crimewatch Reconstruction and the appeal for new info / suspects
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