Re: TIMELINE to watch for in tonight's programme

by **tigger** 14.10.13 20:16

TM wasn't keen on the Smith sighting, on record as stating it was 1.5 miles. Pat Brown found they'd used the distance one needs to go with a car, on foot it's much shorter.

So that alone convinced me that the Smith sighting - probably because he was surrounded by 9 people who spoke to him - was a very big problem.
Much better to hurry back (I believe he was carrying Sean) strip off the beige trousers ( on the bed in the first photographs of the police) and get Jane to see him with JW at the same time as the abductor.
Bit of a stretch as it's more likely that JW saw him 15 to 20 minutes earlier and did not want to pin it down to Gerry's time. JW said between 8.30 and 9.15.

Still those Smiths were contacted later by the great benefactor Kennedy, after which -according to the PJ, they were not willing to commit themselves.

by Cristobell 14.10.13 20:20

aiyoyo wrote:
MaryB wrote:I read somewhere that the abduction is to be moved later to around just before 10 pm. That's not right for starters if it's supposed to be the man the Smith's saw. I wonder how far a walk it is from the apartment down to where the Smiths saw this person with a child.
Guessing 10 minutes away between 5A to that back lane.
What seems ood is that the Mccanns did not make an issue of this sighting; Kate made no mention of this in her bewk (if I am not wrong).
Bizzare that they gave Jane's sighting credence and not Smith's sighting, when if you child is really abducted any sighting should be equally important and critical to check out. They could have asked the UK Police to invite Smith for re-interview back then in 2007 but they didn't.

That in itself makes it all the more suspicious Aiyoyo. The fact that they didn't make so much more of it. It supported the abduction theory far more than the dodgy sighting by Jane. It was more detailed and there were several witnesses.

On a different note, I am wondering if this appeal will elicit more sightings of Smithman (Gerry) in places he claimed not to be? The McCanns have always been very nervous about the Smith sighting, it will be interesting to see what this reconstruction brings.

by JackieL 14.10.13 20:20

russiandoll wrote:
JackieL wrote:
admin wrote:Maddie's sticker book timeline

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id261.html
BUMP!!!!!

If it wasn't for Jez Wilkins' statement their alibi could have been the negligence - remember this quote from Gerry in Berlin on 6th June 2007, when the suggestion was made to them by German radio that some people thought they were involved: "we were with a large group of people, errm... and, you know, there is absolutely no way Kate and I are involved in this abduction."

But the problem is that Jez's statement shows that Gerry WASN'T with a large group of people all the time.......between 8.45 and 9.15 pm it puts him right at the scene of the crime, just outside the McCanns' holiday apartment.

So the timeline had to become way more complicated - Gerry's visit to the apartment had to include - of course - seeing a LIVE Madeleine - we have Jane Tanner, (possibly wasting police time???) with the Bundleman story etc. etc. all written down in the ripped out pages of Madeleine's sticker book, which the much maligned Portuguese police sensibly confiscated.
is there anything in statements re timings, that as soon as GM parted company with JW, he went back to tapas bar ?

WITH GRATEFUL THANKS TO THE MCCANNFILES:

Witness statement of Gerald Patrick McCann, on the 4th of May 2007, at 11.15 a.m.
Thus, at 9.05 pm, the deponent entered the club, using his key, the door being locked, and went to the children's bedroom and noted that the twins and Madeleine were in perfect condition. He then went to the toilet, where he remained for a few instants, left the apartment, and then crossed ways with someone with whom he had played tennis, who had a baby buggy, also a British citizen, with whom he had a brief conversation. He then returned to the restaurant. At around 9.30 pm, his friend MATT (a member of the group) went to his apartment where his own children were, and on his way he went into the deponent's apartment, going in through a sliding glass door at the side of the building, which was always unlocked.

by MoonGoddess 14.10.13 20:21

tigger wrote:TM wasn't keen on the Smith sighting, on record as stating it was 1.5 miles. Pat Brown found they'd used the distance one needs to go with a car, on foot it's much shorter.

So that alone convinced me that the Smith sighting - probably because he was surrounded by 9 people who spoke to him - was a very big problem.
Much better to hurry back (I believe he was carrying Sean) strip off the beige trousers ( on the bed in the first photographs of the police) and get Jane to see him with JW at the same time as the abductor.
Bit of a stretch as it's more likely that JW saw him 15 to 20 minutes earlier and did not want to pin it down to Gerry's time. JW said between 8.30 and 9.15.

Still those Smiths were contacted later by the great benefactor Kennedy, after which -according to the PJ, they were not willing to commit themselves.

why would he be carrying Sean?

by Cristobell 14.10.13 20:23

Beanie wrote:I seem to remember, but can't find it, that someone from the Ocean club did not recall any of the T9 leaving the table the night Madeleine went missing. Is it possible the police are going down this route and they do not think any checks were made?

I was wondering that Beanie, it might account for the clip of Kate saying they weren't the ones at fault. It is very defensive and may be pre-empting something?

by Cristobell 14.10.13 20:27

ConcernedCitizen wrote:Hi, I'm new here and would like to mention that the astrology - imo - confirms Smith saw Gerard McCann. It will be very curious, and surprising, if the changed timeline affects the Smith sighting. This 2 part article was written at the end of 2012 and may be of interest to 'some' people; even those with a limited knowledge of astrology can follow it. Scroll down, two-thirds of the way, to read about the Smith sighting. http://astrologyincrime.com/2012/12/05/hell-and-sectarianism-pt1/ It is not my article ... I am only sharing the link for anyone who may have an interest at looking at this case from a different perspective.

Hi and Welcome to the forum ConcernedCitizen.

The Smith sighting is immoveable. They had gone for a family meal, and then popped in for a nightcap on their way. They still had receipt, which said 9.50. :)

by russiandoll 14.10.13 20:45

Thanks Jackie............ I meant could anyone apart from him and group place him there / not there in a certain timeframe, will check files.

by **PeterMac** 14.10.13 21:02

aiyoyo wrote:
Guessing 10 minutes away between 5A to that back lane.

MUCH LESS
5 minutes Google. three or four Pat and me. TIMELINE to watch for in tonight's programme - Page 2 <a href=

TIMELINE to watch for in tonight's programme - Page 2 Smith_10

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by ultimaThule 15.10.13 4:23

ConcernedCitizen wrote:Hi, I'm new here and would like to mention that the astrology - imo - confirms Smith saw Gerard McCann. It will be very curious, and surprising, if the changed timeline affects the Smith sighting. This 2 part article was written at the end of 2012 and may be of interest to 'some' people; even those with a limited knowledge of astrology can follow it. Scroll down, two-thirds of the way, to read about the Smith sighting. http://astrologyincrime.com/2012/12/05/hell-and-sectarianism-pt1/ It is not my article ... I am only sharing the link for anyone who may have an interest at looking at this case from a different perspective.

ConcernedCitizen. The website you've linked to is of interest to me and I hope to read it in the next day or so, once I've caught up with the latest developments and offloaded my impressions of last night's Crimewatch.

I do hope you'll stay around and become a frequent poster.

by ultimaThule 15.10.13 5:04

After last night's deconstruction it seems to me the goose is almost ready to serve.

There is only one window of opportunity which opens after Matthew Oldfield checks 5A and notices nothing untoward c9.30pm and closes when KM makes her discovery c10pm.

Except there's those pesky witness statements from managers, staff, other guests, and residents, none of whom have an axe to grind and all of which suggest something of a hue and cry had been raised on or before 9.30pm.

What better way to grab some unobserved me-time than purportedly going off campus, as it were, to search for a missing child who may already have been taken part way to the beach by another party?

When those about you are running around like headless chickens, 20-30 minutes can be attributed to having a sudden urge to run hither and thither to places which are attractive to children, or which you may feel an equally urge to explore, while no-one is keeping count of who's doing what and where.

Due to 'legal reasons', last night's edition of Crimewatch can only be accessed on iplayer up until c9pm tonight.

I sincerely hope someone has found it within themselves to do right by an innocent 3 year old.

NB. After yesterday's saturation coverage the press appear to be playing it low key today.

by ultimaThule 15.10.13 14:13

PeterMac wrote:There has been much talk of an "altered timeline" being the key to this.
It is being put out that somehow the time between 8:30 and 9:55 is available. An hour and 25 minutes

Let us therefore briefly re-cap, by cutting it into chunks All times approximate

8:30 McCanns leave apartment - 8:45 all assembled in Tapas, and therefore all have passed the apartment
8:45 - 9:00 Window of opportunity
9:00 MO checks at windows
9:06 - 9:15 Gerry present either inside, or just outside
9:15 - 9:30 Window of opportunity (apart from JT coming back, of course )
9:30 MO checks, no sound, no SMELL.
9:30 - 9:50 Window of Opportunity
9:50 RO'B passes
9:50 - 9:55 Window of Opportunity
9:55 Balloon goes up.

Two blocks of max 15 minutes, plus one of 20 minutes, and one of 5.

Let us watch with interest.

Following last night's Crimewatch edition, if we 'draw it back to zero':

1. The last person to see Madeleine alive was Gerald Patrick McCann when he checked his children were sleeping at c9.05-9.15pm on Thursday 3 May 2007.

Due to the diligence of the McCanns' and others in their party checking on their children on that night:

2. The only window of opportunity available for an abductor to enter the apartment and remove Madeleine from it is between 9.50-9.55pm when her mother returned to find the children's bedroom window and shutters open and her eldest daughter had been 'taken'.

by Guest 15.10.13 14:27

ultimaThule wrote:
PeterMac wrote:There has been much talk of an "altered timeline" being the key to this.
It is being put out that somehow the time between 8:30 and 9:55 is available. An hour and 25 minutes

Let us therefore briefly re-cap, by cutting it into chunks All times approximate

8:30 McCanns leave apartment - 8:45 all assembled in Tapas, and therefore all have passed the apartment
8:45 - 9:00 Window of opportunity
9:00 MO checks at windows
9:06 - 9:15 Gerry present either inside, or just outside
9:15 - 9:30 Window of opportunity (apart from JT coming back, of course )
9:30 MO checks, no sound, no SMELL.
9:30 - 9:50 Window of Opportunity
9:50 RO'B passes
9:50 - 9:55 Window of Opportunity
9:55 Balloon goes up.

Two blocks of max 15 minutes, plus one of 20 minutes, and one of 5.

Let us watch with interest.
Following last night's Crimewatch edition, if we 'draw it back to zero':

1. The last person to see Madeleine alive was Gerald Patrick McCann when he checked his children were sleeping at c9.05-9.15pm on Thursday 3 May 2007.

Due to the diligence of the McCanns' and others in their party checking on their children on that night:

2. The only window of opportunity available for an abductor to enter the apartment and remove Madeleine from it is between 9.50-9.55pm when her mother returned to find the children's bedroom window and shutters open and her eldest daughter had been 'taken'.

According to ROB statement (Rogatory) He stayed in the apartment after doing his check cos his daughter had been sick. In that time he had managed to change her, bath her and put the sheets in the washing machine. He never does get round to telling us where he got fresh sheets from.
Jane Tanner returns after being told by MO that ROB needed to be 'relieved'. Jane Tanner returned at 9.40pm and they chatted together for around 5 mins or so. ROB then goes back to tapas bar at 9.45pm.

So it looks as the timeframe is narrowed to just after 9.45 pm - and the abductor was already near PDL centre and beach by 10pm.

Have I got that right.

by Guest 15.10.13 14:31

ultimaThule wrote:
Due to 'legal reasons', last night's edition of Crimewatch can only be accessed on iplayer up until c9pm tonight.

I sincerely hope someone has found it within themselves to do right by an innocent 3 year old.

NB. After yesterday's saturation coverage the press appear to be playing it low key today.

Now that's very interesting.

by **sharonl** 15.10.13 14:42

candyfloss wrote:
ultimaThule wrote:
PeterMac wrote:There has been much talk of an "altered timeline" being the key to this.
It is being put out that somehow the time between 8:30 and 9:55 is available. An hour and 25 minutes

Let us therefore briefly re-cap, by cutting it into chunks All times approximate

8:30 McCanns leave apartment - 8:45 all assembled in Tapas, and therefore all have passed the apartment
8:45 - 9:00 Window of opportunity
9:00 MO checks at windows
9:06 - 9:15 Gerry present either inside, or just outside
9:15 - 9:30 Window of opportunity (apart from JT coming back, of course )
9:30 MO checks, no sound, no SMELL.
9:30 - 9:50 Window of Opportunity
9:50 RO'B passes
9:50 - 9:55 Window of Opportunity
9:55 Balloon goes up.

Two blocks of max 15 minutes, plus one of 20 minutes, and one of 5.

Let us watch with interest.
Following last night's Crimewatch edition, if we 'draw it back to zero':

1. The last person to see Madeleine alive was Gerald Patrick McCann when he checked his children were sleeping at c9.05-9.15pm on Thursday 3 May 2007.

Due to the diligence of the McCanns' and others in their party checking on their children on that night:

2. The only window of opportunity available for an abductor to enter the apartment and remove Madeleine from it is between 9.50-9.55pm when her mother returned to find the children's bedroom window and shutters open and her eldest daughter had been 'taken'.
According to ROB statement (Rogatory) He stayed in the apartment after doing his check cos his daughter had been sick. In that time he had managed to change her, bath her and put the sheets in the washing machine. He never does get round to telling us where he got fresh sheets from.
Jane Tanner returns after being told by MO that ROB needed to be 'relieved'. Jane Tanner returned at 9.40pm and they chatted together for around 5 mins or so. ROB then goes back to tapas bar at 9.45pm.

So it looks as the timeframe is narrowed to just after 9.45 pm - and the abductor was already near PDL centre and beach by 10pm.

Have I got that right.

The details about ROB and JT are correct, but as regards the timeframe, that evidence (if true) makes little difference. That's because most of the stuff about ROB and JT occurs in their apartment, not the McCanns.

After Deadwood's 'revelation moment', PeterMac is basically right about the 'windows of opportunity', except that:

1. 9.15 - Gerry McCann may have been talking to Jez Wilkins beyond 9.15 (remember: 'exceptionally long time in the loo', might have been watching a football match etc.)

2. 9.20ish - No window of opportunity as JT walks back to the Tapas bar

3. Around 9.30 - no window of opportunity while MO and ROB going up to their apartments

4. Around say 9.35 - no window of opportunity as MO returns to the Tapas bar

5. 9.40ish - no window of opportunity as JT returns to the table

6. 9.50ish - no window of opportunity as ROB returns to the table

7. If abductor is Smithman seen at about 10.00pm, it would take 7-10 mins to get from G5A to near the beach, he must have left before 9.50 or so

None of the above saw anyone hanging about mnear G5A.

None of them saw an open window and shutters.

None of them saw or heard anything else of interest.

by ultimaThule 15.10.13 14:51

That's how I'm reading it, candyfloss.

It has now been established that there was a very narrow window of opportunity for a stranger to enter the apartment, remove Madeleine McCann, and make off with her either by car or on foot.

Given the revised timeline, the Smiths' sighting has greater relevance for the investigation which is now endeavouring to establish whether the man they saw carrying a child who resembled Madeleine was another holidaymaker or a resident of Luz taking his daughter home, or whether it is a sighting of the man who took Madeleine from her bed - hence the appeal for information from anyone who was in the area on the night in question.

by tiny 15.10.13 14:58

I think why deadwood is putting the smith sighting above jane tanners is because he hopes more people will phone up and say they saw Gerry McCann,
because of the narrowed opportunity to take Madeleine it had to be some one in the group,well that's how I see it.although I have always said a whitewash is on the cards

by ultimaThule 15.10.13 15:11

The McCanns were in the Crimewatch studio last night and spoke live to Kirsty Young after the 'reconstruction' was shown.

As Madeleine's parents expressed themselves as being greatly encouraged by NSY's work and made their own appeal for information to aid the investigation, it would seem we can assume they were given advance sight of the 'reconstruction' and concur with it - as evidenced by their their intention to accompany DCI Redwood to Germany, Holland etc where the part of last night's edition of Crimewatch which was devoted to the search for Madeleine will be aired again.

As with any other serious crime investigation, it is incumbent on the police to look at all angles and eliminate those which have no bearing on the case. Given the 'spate' of burglaries which occurred in Luz during the early part of 2007, 2 of which were reported as having occurred in the same apartment block as 5A the police will, as a matter of course, seek to eliminate any possibility that Madeleine may have 'disturbed a burglar' in order to leave no doubt should the person or persons who removed her from the apartment be held to account in a Court of Law.

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