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Confusion About Cadaver Odour

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Re: Confusion About Cadaver Odour

Post by LG1968 on 18.10.12 23:05

candyfloss wrote:Sorry sami our posts crossed, but yes Eddie alerted to the bottom of the door, and Keela didn't, and the report states this, which I posted in red.

We know that Eddie alerted to the door of the car in which blood was found. The scent very possibly came from the blood inside the car where Keela did alert.

It is fascinating that you have formed the opinion that an alert to a car where there was blood found (nobody checked the door seal at the point of the alert to test its effectiveness) is "proof positive, it was cadaver odour" when the expert handler himself says this is only a possibility and that it can't be taken as evidence of cadaver odour because there was nothing to corroborate it. I prefer to rely on the expert evidence of Martin Grime.

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Re: Confusion About Cadaver Odour

Post by LG1968 on 18.10.12 23:08

sami wrote:
candyfloss wrote:Sorry sami our posts crossed, but yes Eddie alerted to the bottom of the door, and Keela didn't, and the report states this, which I posted in red.


Thanks Candyfloss - was just about to post to ask you do you agree or disagree with me - long day at work and my head hurts ! So good, we are in agreement, there is most definately cadaver odour in the car.

Now the reason I think the boot is a very important issue is this. If for example the odour was from the key fob and the key fob stored in the door, then the odour could have come from transfer - the person who touched the key fob, touched a cadaver.

If there was no odour in the boot, it would suggest there was not necessarily a body ever transported in the boot, but perhaps items used to clean up blood etc. were transported. There was a suggestion (by Amaral I think) there were also fluids which could only be generated by a frozen cadaver. Again these fluids might have come from items used in a clean up of an area.

It really is an important thing, imo, the McCanns claim to fame if you like is that they could not have transported a body in the boot, 25 days later, the worlds media were watching etc. It is actually quite a gruesome thought also. Transporting cleaning items with normal household rubbish though would be much easier. And the McCanns have told us they spent more time going to the dump than the beach.

Can I ask what makes you more expert than Martin Grime who was very clear that there was not definitely cadaver odour in the car?

His statement is clear.

It is my view that it is possible that the EVRD is alerting to
'cadaver scent'
contaminant or human blood scent. No evidential or intelligence
reliability can
be made from this alert unless it can be confirmed with
corroborating
evidence. The remainder of the vehicles were screened by the
EVRD without
any interest being shown. Therefore the CSI dog was not further
deployed.

You are clearly going far further than the handler did in your claim. What further evidence do you have that it was definitely cadaver odour that he wasn't aware of?

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Re: Confusion About Cadaver Odour

Post by Woofer on 18.10.12 23:10

candyfloss wrote:
Woofer wrote:I think I`m more confused than ever now because its just struck me that dead bodies don`t bleed, so the blood was either from a person in the process of dying or there was congealed blood from a wound still on the body.

Any blood on a body will contaminate what it lies on. Blood still seeps out of wounds for a very short time, but because the heart has stopped pumping , it will not carry on bleeding, it is only residue that is left in the wound etc. will seep in certain positions. I know I watch Dr G Medical Examiner, she tell me all these things

Thanks candyfloss - I`m only used to dealing with bodies after they`re dead and not any that have been wounded.
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Spanner in the works

Post by isar on 18.10.12 23:12

Eddie alerted, where-/whenever Grimes wanted it to alert IMO

especially when Levy's camera was trained on them

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Re: Confusion About Cadaver Odour

Post by sami on 18.10.12 23:13

candyfloss wrote:
Woofer wrote:I think I`m more confused than ever now because its just struck me that dead bodies don`t bleed, so the blood was either from a person in the process of dying or there was congealed blood from a wound still on the body.

Any blood on a body will contaminate what it lies on. Blood still seeps out of wounds for a very short time, but because the heart has stopped pumping , it will not carry on bleeding, it is only residue that is left in the wound etc. will seep in certain positions. I know I watch Dr G Medical Examiner, she tell me all these things


Grimes has previously said in one of his reports that Eddie can alert to dried blood from a living person, but not to fresh blood. If the dried blood is in contact with water later, perhaps washed, it will not change the scent the dogs can detect. Once dried, making it liquid again with water will not deter them.

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Re: Confusion About Cadaver Odour

Post by LG1968 on 18.10.12 23:15

I have just checked Martin Grime's actual report.

In fact KEELA did alert to the car door.

The Renault Scenic vehicle –
number plate 59-DA-27 was removed to the third floor of the underground
car park and was subjected to a forensic search by officers from the
Scientific Police Laboratory and another sniffer dog inspection that
began at 03.49 on 7th August by the dog KEELA, which detected human
blood remains, the following results were noted:

03.53 – the dog “marked” a zone on the right inferior side of the inside of the luggage compartment of the vehicle;

04.11 – the dog “marked” the compartment on the driver’s side,
which was seen to contain the vehicle’s key, of a plastic electronic
card type, with a key ring from the Budget car rental agency.

So it is not correct to state that because Keela didn't react to the door then that is proof positive that Eddie alerted to Cadaver odour.

Both dogs alerted to that door which actually contained the key fob which was shown later to have Gerry McCanns blood on it.


When Eddie was checking the car he was at the boot for some considerable time and made no alert to that section at all.

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Re: Confusion About Cadaver Odour

Post by sami on 18.10.12 23:28

LG1968 wrote:
sami wrote:
candyfloss wrote:Sorry sami our posts crossed, but yes Eddie alerted to the bottom of the door, and Keela didn't, proof positive, it was cadaver odour, and the report states this, which I posted in red.


Thanks Candyfloss - was just about to post to ask you do you agree or disagree with me - long day at work and my head hurts ! So good, we are in agreement, there is most definately cadaver odour in the car.

Now the reason I think the boot is a very important issue is this. If for example the odour was from the key fob and the key fob stored in the door, then the odour could have come from transfer - the person who touched the key fob, touched a cadaver.

If there was no odour in the boot, it would suggest there was not necessarily a body ever transported in the boot, but perhaps items used to clean up blood etc. were transported. There was a suggestion (by Amaral I think) there were also fluids which could only be generated by a frozen cadaver. Again these fluids might have come from items used in a clean up of an area.

It really is an important thing, imo, the McCanns claim to fame if you like is that they could not have transported a body in the boot, 25 days later, the worlds media were watching etc. It is actually quite a gruesome thought also. Transporting cleaning items with normal household rubbish though would be much easier. And the McCanns have told us they spent more time going to the dump than the beach.

Can I ask what makes you more expert than Martin Grime who was very clear that there was not definitely cadaver odour in the car?

His statement is clear.

It is my view that it is possible that the EVRD is alerting to
'cadaver scent'
contaminant or human blood scent. No evidential or intelligence
reliability can
be made from this alert unless it can be confirmed with
corroborating
evidence. The remainder of the vehicles were screened by the
EVRD without
any interest being shown. Therefore the CSI dog was not further
deployed.

You are clearly going far further than the handler did in your claim. What further evidence do you have that it was definitely cadaver odour that he wasn't aware of?


Sorry, but I do not understand your question, but I hope this answers it.

I am simply saying, in my opinion and from what I understand how these dogs work, one positive alert to an area of the car, in this instance the door, was enough for Martin Grimes to then deploy the blood dog. He does not require the cadaver dog to go through the car piece by piece, he is detecting an odour so will naturally be present throughout the car. The physical evidence is required to be found by going through the car piece by piece. This is the job of the blood dog.

I am not making any claim whatsoever, I would bow anyday of the week to Mr Grimes, his dogs and his expertise. I am simply pointing out there are items in the car which may have been in contact with a cadaver or somebody who was in such contact. It does not necessarily mean a body was physically transported in that car, but clearly the bodily fluids in the boot came from somewhere.

The tone of your post is quite aggressive, I see no reason for that.

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Re: Confusion About Cadaver Odour

Post by LG1968 on 18.10.12 23:36

sami wrote:
LG1968 wrote:
sami wrote:
candyfloss wrote:Sorry sami our posts crossed, but yes Eddie alerted to the bottom of the door, and Keela didn't, and the report states this, which I posted in red.


Thanks Candyfloss - was just about to post to ask you do you agree or disagree with me - long day at work and my head hurts ! So good, we are in agreement, there is most definately cadaver odour in the car.

Now the reason I think the boot is a very important issue is this. If for example the odour was from the key fob and the key fob stored in the door, then the odour could have come from transfer - the person who touched the key fob, touched a cadaver.

If there was no odour in the boot, it would suggest there was not necessarily a body ever transported in the boot, but perhaps items used to clean up blood etc. were transported. There was a suggestion (by Amaral I think) there were also fluids which could only be generated by a frozen cadaver. Again these fluids might have come from items used in a clean up of an area.

It really is an important thing, imo, the McCanns claim to fame if you like is that they could not have transported a body in the boot, 25 days later, the worlds media were watching etc. It is actually quite a gruesome thought also. Transporting cleaning items with normal household rubbish though would be much easier. And the McCanns have told us they spent more time going to the dump than the beach.

Can I ask what makes you more expert than Martin Grime who was very clear that there was not definitely cadaver odour in the car?

His statement is clear.

It is my view that it is possible that the EVRD is alerting to
'cadaver scent'
contaminant or human blood scent. No evidential or intelligence
reliability can
be made from this alert unless it can be confirmed with
corroborating
evidence. The remainder of the vehicles were screened by the
EVRD without
any interest being shown. Therefore the CSI dog was not further
deployed.

You are clearly going far further than the handler did in your claim. What further evidence do you have that it was definitely cadaver odour that he wasn't aware of?


Sorry, but I do not understand your question, but I hope this answers it.

I am simply saying, in my opinion and from what I understand how these dogs work, one positive alert to an area of the car, in this instance the door, was enough for Martin Grimes to then deploy the blood dog. He does not require the cadaver dog to go through the car piece by piece, he is detecting an odour so will naturally be present throughout the car. The physical evidence is required to be found by going through the car piece by piece. This is the job of the blood dog.

I am not making any claim whatsoever, I would bow anyday of the week to Mr Grimes, his dogs and his expertise. I am simply pointing out there are items in the car which may have been in contact with a cadaver or somebody who was in such contact. It does not necessarily mean a body was physically transported in that car, but clearly the bodily fluids in the boot came from somewhere.

The tone of your post is quite aggressive, I see no reason for that.

But you just agreed with candyfloss who claimed that the absence of an alert by Keela at the door would be positive proof of cadaver odour. Well there was an alert by Keela at the door so that can't follow.

And my point is that you were agreeing to a post claiming a positive cadaver alert when even Grime doesn't go anywhere near that far in his claims.

I wasn't trying to be aggressive just asking why you thought you were able to state it positively (So good, we are in agreement, there is most definately cadaver odour in the car.) when Grime couldn't.

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Re: Confusion About Cadaver Odour

Post by isar on 18.10.12 23:44

isar wrote:Eddie alerted, where-/whenever Grime wanted it to alert IMO

especially when Levy's camera was trained on them

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Re: Confusion About Cadaver Odour

Post by Guest on 18.10.12 23:48

As you can see from the video I posted Keela gets up very close to the blood and sniffs with her nose down near it. She then freezes. She did not do that at the car door, as Eddie did. Eddie smells the scent in the air, as he did in Apartment 5a, as Martin Grimes states in his video Eddie was all excited around the car,as if imo he could sniff cadaver scent. Keela only sniffed the key fob in the glove compartment, I assume when the door was opened. She did not sniff otuside the car at the door jam and freeze. She gets right up close to where the blood is. So Keela would have been let into the car to sniff for blood in there and found some in the glove compartment on the fob. She did not alert outside the car.

From the report you posted..





The Renault Scenic vehicle –
number plate 59-DA-27 was removed to the third floor of the underground
car park and was subjected to a forensic search by officers from the
Scientific Police Laboratory and another sniffer dog inspection that
began at 03.49 on 7th August by the dog KEELA, which detected human
blood remains, the following results were noted:

03.53 – the dog “marked” a zone on the right inferior side of the inside of the luggage compartment of the vehicle;

04.11 – the dog “marked” the compartment on the driver’s side,
which was seen to contain the vehicle’s key, of a plastic electronic
card type, with a key ring from the Budget car rental agency.
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Re: Confusion About Cadaver Odour

Post by Guest on 18.10.12 23:53

isar wrote:Eddie alerted, where-/whenever Grimes wanted it to alert IMO

especially when Levy's camera was trained on them

Pardon.
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Re: Confusion About Cadaver Odour

Post by sami on 18.10.12 23:54

LG1968 wrote:
sami wrote:
LG1968 wrote:
sami wrote:
candyfloss wrote:Sorry sami our posts crossed, but yes Eddie alerted to the bottom of the door, and Keela didn't, and the report states this, which I posted in red.


Thanks Candyfloss - was just about to post to ask you do you agree or disagree with me - long day at work and my head hurts ! So good, we are in agreement, there is most definately cadaver odour in the car.

Now the reason I think the boot is a very important issue is this. If for example the odour was from the key fob and the key fob stored in the door, then the odour could have come from transfer - the person who touched the key fob, touched a cadaver.

If there was no odour in the boot, it would suggest there was not necessarily a body ever transported in the boot, but perhaps items used to clean up blood etc. were transported. There was a suggestion (by Amaral I think) there were also fluids which could only be generated by a frozen cadaver. Again these fluids might have come from items used in a clean up of an area.

It really is an important thing, imo, the McCanns claim to fame if you like is that they could not have transported a body in the boot, 25 days later, the worlds media were watching etc. It is actually quite a gruesome thought also. Transporting cleaning items with normal household rubbish though would be much easier. And the McCanns have told us they spent more time going to the dump than the beach.

Can I ask what makes you more expert than Martin Grime who was very clear that there was not definitely cadaver odour in the car?

His statement is clear.

It is my view that it is possible that the EVRD is alerting to
'cadaver scent'
contaminant or human blood scent. No evidential or intelligence
reliability can
be made from this alert unless it can be confirmed with
corroborating
evidence. The remainder of the vehicles were screened by the
EVRD without
any interest being shown. Therefore the CSI dog was not further
deployed.

You are clearly going far further than the handler did in your claim. What further evidence do you have that it was definitely cadaver odour that he wasn't aware of?


Sorry, but I do not understand your question, but I hope this answers it.

I am simply saying, in my opinion and from what I understand how these dogs work, one positive alert to an area of the car, in this instance the door, was enough for Martin Grimes to then deploy the blood dog. He does not require the cadaver dog to go through the car piece by piece, he is detecting an odour so will naturally be present throughout the car. The physical evidence is required to be found by going through the car piece by piece. This is the job of the blood dog.

I am not making any claim whatsoever, I would bow anyday of the week to Mr Grimes, his dogs and his expertise. I am simply pointing out there are items in the car which may have been in contact with a cadaver or somebody who was in such contact. It does not necessarily mean a body was physically transported in that car, but clearly the bodily fluids in the boot came from somewhere.

The tone of your post is quite aggressive, I see no reason for that.

But you just agreed with candyfloss who claimed that the absence of an alert by Keela at the door would be positive proof of cadaver odour. Well there was an alert by Keela at the door so that can't follow.

And my point is that you were agreeing to a post claiming a positive cadaver alert when even Grime doesn't go anywhere near that far in his claims.

I wasn't trying to be aggressive just asking why you thought you were able to state it positively when Grime couldn't.



Eddie is the cadaver dog. He is quite clearly howling at the door, even in the photograph at the header of this site. I am not saying the absence of an alert by Keela the blood dog means there is cadaver. Keela is not deployed until after Eddie has done his work. Had Eddie barked, and Keela found nothing, it is a different matter. But Eddie barked, then Keela found dna evidence. Ergo, the dog was barking at something.

There is most likely cadaver odour on something within the car, however it does not lead to a definate assumption that it was an actual physical cadaver. That is what I was saying. The bodily fluids and blood came from somewhere, be it a cadaver or items used to clean something else.

Mr Grimes report can read non committal at times when he speaks about the findings of the cadaver dog. This is because his findings are not physical, they are an interpretation of what his dog is saying. He cannot state on the basis of what Eddie is telling him there was definately a cadaver in the car, but that is standard in any report of this nature. In a similar way a lawyer will use specific phrasing, so too do these reports when it comes to cadaver dogs. At least blood is a physical thing - the dog alerts, the forensic people take a good look and find something positive. It is immediately apparant to the naked eye.

Read through previous reports on cadaver dog findings and you will see they are all very similar in the way they are worded. It is never, in what I have read at least, stated as a definate fact. It becomes a definate fact when the body is found. So Mr Grimes report in this instance, in my opinion, is not worded in this way because he has doubts, it is the industry standard as such.

Thank you for apologising.

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Re: Confusion About Cadaver Odour

Post by Guest on 18.10.12 23:58

LG1968 wrote:[...]

Eddie alerts to blood and cadaver odour. When he has alerted then the CSI dog is brought in to the specific location to see if the alert relates to blood. Only if Keela the CSI dog does not alert can Grime know that Eddie has alerted to blood.

The reason for Keela is simple. To check which alert Eddie has given.
***
That's the other way around.
IF Keela reacts too, it might be blood. If she doesn't it must be cadaver.

ETA Sorry, I've been back late and now noticed that there were pages and pages of comments in between.
What activity, suddenly, on the subject of cadaver dogs ... ;-)
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Re: Confusion About Cadaver Odour

Post by Guest on 19.10.12 0:01

candyfloss wrote:
isar wrote:Eddie alerted, where-/whenever Grimes wanted it to alert IMO

especially when Levy's camera was trained on them

Pardon.

Are you saying Martin Grimes trying to frame the McCanns, because that is what it sounds like.
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Re: Confusion About Cadaver Odour

Post by sami on 19.10.12 0:01

Châtelaine wrote:
LG1968 wrote:[...]

Eddie alerts to blood and cadaver odour. When he has alerted then the CSI dog is brought in to the specific location to see if the alert relates to blood. Only if Keela the CSI dog does not alert can Grime know that Eddie has alerted to blood.

The reason for Keela is simple. To check which alert Eddie has given.
***
That's the other way around.
IF Keela reacts too, it might be blood. If she doesn't it must be cadaver.


Yes so if Eddie does not react, they do not (usually) deploy Keela.

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Re: Confusion About Cadaver Odour

Post by isar on 19.10.12 0:02

candyfloss wrote:
isar wrote:Eddie alerted, where-/whenever Grimes wanted it to alert IMO

especially when Levy's camera was trained on them

Pardon.

you heard - my opinion - quite right

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Re: Confusion About Cadaver Odour

Post by Guest on 19.10.12 0:06

sami wrote:
Châtelaine wrote:
LG1968 wrote:[...]

Eddie alerts to blood and cadaver odour. When he has alerted then the CSI dog is brought in to the specific location to see if the alert relates to blood. Only if Keela the CSI dog does not alert can Grime know that Eddie has alerted to blood.

The reason for Keela is simple. To check which alert Eddie has given.
***
That's the other way around.
IF Keela reacts too, it might be blood. If she doesn't it must be cadaver.
***
That's right. IAMAIK the late Eddie went first [and probably his successor Morse now too] and only after an alert by the "cadaver" dog the "blood" dog, Keela at the time, would go in too.


Yes so if Eddie does not react, they do not (usually) deploy Keela.
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Re: Confusion About Cadaver Odour

Post by Guest on 19.10.12 0:07

isar wrote:
candyfloss wrote:
isar wrote:Eddie alerted, where-/whenever Grimes wanted it to alert IMO

especially when Levy's camera was trained on them

Pardon.

you heard - my opinion - quite right

I see accusing Mr Grimes of framing the Mccanns, you have also tried to cause disruption in the Stephen Birch thread, so in that case



I take it isar stands for Ismellarat.
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Re: Confusion About Cadaver Odour

Post by sami on 19.10.12 0:07

candyfloss wrote:
candyfloss wrote:
isar wrote:Eddie alerted, where-/whenever Grimes wanted it to alert IMO

especially when Levy's camera was trained on them

Pardon.

Are you saying Martin Grimes trying to frame the McCanns, because that is what it sounds like.


It is amazing really. Two unknown, run of the mill doctors, one a part time gp, went to Portugal for a week and ended up with the Nations of England and Portgual trying to fame them. To add insult to injury, those involved in the framing were prior to that week in May well respected, hard working professional people, in their chosen field. Then suddenly, bam. Everyone went nuts. We all became internet nutters and the rest is history.

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Re: Confusion About Cadaver Odour

Post by Guest on 19.10.12 0:09

So are you of the opinion Isar that the McCanns were not involved in any way with what happened to Madeleine?
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Re: Confusion About Cadaver Odour

Post by Guest on 19.10.12 0:12

Jean wrote:So are you of the opinion Isar that the McCanns were not involved in any way with what happened to Madeleine?

Too late Jean he/she whooshed. Caused disruption on SB thread, now accusing Mr Grime of cuing his dogs, to only the McCanns car.
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Re: Confusion About Cadaver Odour

Post by Guest on 19.10.12 0:14

Doggone it!!!!

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Re: Confusion About Cadaver Odour

Post by Guest on 19.10.12 5:27

Martin Grime: "The dog's behaviour for these alerts led me to the following opinions. The first alert was given with the dog’s head in the air without a positive area being identified. This is the alert given by him when there is no tangible evidence to be located [i.e. a physical corpse], only the remaining scent."
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Re: Confusion About Cadaver Odour

Post by saltnpepper on 19.10.12 8:36

Like i said before...some posters will try to discredit the findings of these dogs as it points a BIG finger in a certain direction,we are seeing murderers convicted on the evidence of cadaver dogs,major police forces are still using this excellent tool,people who kill do not want to be found out but these dogs are catching them
IF Eddie alerts to blood...there must be at least ONE case where he has alerted to a cadaver & the missing person has turned up ...??? i will reply when i see this one case...i rest my case
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Re: Confusion About Cadaver Odour

Post by Springers are FAB on 19.10.12 10:31

sami wrote:
candyfloss wrote:Sorry sami our posts crossed, but yes Eddie alerted to the bottom of the door, and Keela didn't, proof positive, it was cadaver odour, and the report states this, which I posted in red.


Thanks Candyfloss - was just about to post to ask you do you agree or disagree with me - long day at work and my head hurts ! So good, we are in agreement, there is most definately cadaver odour in the car.

Now the reason I think the boot is a very important issue is this. If for example the odour was from the key fob and the key fob stored in the door, then the odour could have come from transfer - the person who touched the key fob, touched a cadaver.

If there was no odour in the boot, it would suggest there was not necessarily a body ever transported in the boot, but perhaps items used to clean up blood etc. were transported. There was a suggestion (by Amaral I think) there were also fluids which could only be generated by a frozen cadaver. Again these fluids might have come from items used in a clean up of an area.

It really is an important thing, imo, the McCanns claim to fame if you like is that they could not have transported a body in the boot, 25 days later, the worlds media were watching etc. It is actually quite a gruesome thought also. Transporting cleaning items with normal household rubbish though would be much easier. And the McCanns have told us they spent more time going to the dump than the beach.

This for me Sami (the part in bold), is the salient point to have come out of this discussion. It gets rid of the awkward re-burying thesis and makes it all the more believable that we are not being told the truth by Madeleine's parents. Thankyou for setting it out! roses

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