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Confusion About Cadaver Odour

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Re: Confusion About Cadaver Odour

Post by Nina on 18.10.12 18:46

candyfloss wrote:
@saltnpepper wrote:Sorry EVRD,have seen so much work by certain posters on another site to discredit these dogs for the simple reason in that it points a very big finger in a certain direction

Certain people from another site, can't think who you mean saltnpepper The very same people that spend all day on twitter tweeting exactly the same stuff that is on this thread, no, surely not.

They think we are dontgetit but we have been with this case long enough to recognize the seemingly friendly chatter for what it is, and it aint friendly.

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Re: Confusion About Cadaver Odour

Post by saltnpepper on 18.10.12 18:48

websleuths i mean but yes, the sites you mean aswell

If you can support parents of a missing child in where a cadaver dog alerts in the place where they claim the said child went missing from,well...who am i to argue
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Re: Confusion About Cadaver Odour

Post by LG1968 on 18.10.12 21:09

@saltnpepper wrote:If a cvrd dog reacted to human blood,how often would it be barking...it must be in every home,a dog handler would only bring in a csi dog if the cvrd dog has alerted & then only in the region of the cvrd dogs alert,the csi dogs alert always have a proof test in that the forensics will lift for evidence to be tested, if they alert in the same spot as the cvrd dog that in itself is an indication,just think...if eddie alerted to blood then why bother with keela?

Is there a difference between blood from a living or dead person?...scientifically of course

I am sorry if you disagree with how I read what those reports say. But I understand them as saying that Eddie does alert to blood.

Eddie alerts to blood and cadaver odour. When he has alerted then the CSI dog is brought in to the specific location to see if the alert relates to blood. Only if Keela the CSI dog does not alert can Grime know that Eddie has alerted to blood.

The reason for Keela is simple. To check which alert Eddie has given.

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Re: Confusion About Cadaver Odour

Post by LG1968 on 18.10.12 21:20

I notice that this bit from the Almeida report posted earlier says that both Eddie and Keela alerted inside the car but I thought only Keela was deployed inside the McCann car.

7. The vehicle that was used by the McCann family:

7.1. Cadaver odour detection dog:

* marked the car key
* marked the inside of the car boot

7.2. Blood dog:

* marked the car key
* marked the inside of the car boot

In the Addidtional analysis to the Almeida report there is a different set of car alerts given as part of the overall list.

This work resulted in 'alerts' by both dogs:
- cadaver odour [was alerted to]:
* in the lounge, next to one of the windows, of apartment 5A;

* in the current residence of the family, a soft toy of the
girl Madeleine;
* on various pieces of clothing;
* on the key of the car used by the family;

- blood odour;
* in the lounge, next to one of the windows, of apartment 5A
(the same place
alerted to by the other dog;
* on the key of the key used by the family;
* inside the boot area of the car used by the family.

Here it says that only the blood dog alerted inside the car.

I wonder which is true?

Also in the English translation of the additional analysis there is a set of brackets which don't exist in original. Was this done for emphasis or was it a mistake?




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Re: Confusion About Cadaver Odour

Post by LG1968 on 18.10.12 21:34

candyfloss wrote:Yes, that's right saltnpepper, they would alert in every house in the land. It's total nonsense. EVRD (Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog) i.e. Cadaver dog, that is what it alerts to Human death scent, which includes human decomposed /old blood, body fluids etc,

Keela finds the smallest traces of blood. Used in conjunction, they are almost without a doubt, definitve proof of a death in that area.

Yes Martin Grime I think said somewhere that he alerts not to recent blood but to "dried blood". I will try to find a link.

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Re: Confusion About Cadaver Odour

Post by LG1968 on 18.10.12 21:47

@Nina wrote:
Moa wrote:I agree about the confusen , but the answer is probably that if he found and barked for blood, the other dog would have marked there as well, and also blood be found. If im not wrong, they both marked a finding behind the sofa also the only place they did find spots of blood., but only Eddie, trained for cadaver and blood marked on the clothes, cuddle cat, closeth, car etc? Seems logical, and probably why they used a pure blood dog in addition to Eddie?

Exactly Moa, blood behind the sofa, and Eddie barked and Keela froze, apart from her sweet little tail Keela also alerted with her freeze inside the car and the key fob, but not at the clothing or cuddle cat that Eddie alerted to, so no blood on those items, just cadaverine. Incidently watched long video today, over an hour about the alerts in 5A and the search by the dogs in the final place the McCs stayed in and I am sure there was a second cuddle cat on the floor of the living room, besides the precious on that belonged to Madeleine that was shoved in a cupboard awaiting it's next public airing

The video is on the Martin Grime thread and is at 1 minute 54. eddie knocks over a waste basket and out spills a pink cuddle cat, he then finds one in the cupboard that he alerts to for Cadaverine. So two cuddle cats Must say i found the search very interesting as it showed inside 5A in greater detail.

What you have posted is exactly where the confusion lies. The original question I responded to earlier was about the alerts in the car.

The confusion is that in the Almeida report it says Eddie alerted in the boot. But Eddie wasn't in the car in the video at all or in any of Grimes reports, just outside the car. He didn't alert to the boot but to the car door.

It looks as if there is a discrepancy between the Almeida report and the analysis attached to the report which doesnt show that Eddie alerted inside the boot either, just to the blood on the key fob. In fact that analysis seems to miss out that Eddie did alert on the video to the car door. The reports don't match up with each other about the cars which leads to confusion.

In fact the only report which actually matches what we can see on the video about Eddie is the final report of the AG which says.

[color:c835=000000]

6 – This dog signalled the lower outside area next to the driver's door of the Renault – 59-DA-27 –
that was rented by the McCanns




7 – Finally it "marked" the key/card of that vehicle when it was hidden under a fire prevention sand box

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Re: Confusion About Cadaver Odour

Post by saltnpepper on 18.10.12 21:49

@LG1968 wrote:
@saltnpepper wrote:If a cvrd dog reacted to human blood,how often would it be barking...it must be in every home,a dog handler would only bring in a csi dog if the cvrd dog has alerted & then only in the region of the cvrd dogs alert,the csi dogs alert always have a proof test in that the forensics will lift for evidence to be tested, if they alert in the same spot as the cvrd dog that in itself is an indication,just think...if eddie alerted to blood then why bother with keela?

Is there a difference between blood from a living or dead person?...scientifically of course

I am sorry if you disagree with how I read what those reports say. But I understand them as saying that Eddie does alert to blood.

Eddie alerts to blood and cadaver odour. When he has alerted then the CSI dog is brought in to the specific location to see if the alert relates to blood. Only if Keela the CSI dog does not alert can Grime know that Eddie has alerted to blood... The csi dog alerts to blood

The reason for Keela is simple. To check which alert Eddie has given.


No need to be sorry...all we can do is read about these dogs & see the videos & form an opinion
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Re: Confusion About Cadaver Odour

Post by Angelique on 18.10.12 21:57

I can only just understand how these these two dogs alert.

When Eddie alerted, say, by the wardrobe but Keela didn't this showed Eddie was alerting to cadaver.

As has been stated Keela was the "fail safe" for blood only.

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Re: Confusion About Cadaver Odour

Post by Guest on 18.10.12 22:00

Martin Grime knows his dogs inside out, he trained them, I don't need anything else, if he said Eddie alerted to Cadaver he did. Enough said. He's never been wrong in 200 cases.
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Re: Confusion About Cadaver Odour

Post by sami on 18.10.12 22:01

@LG1968 wrote:
@Nina wrote:
Moa wrote:I agree about the confusen , but the answer is probably that if he found and barked for blood, the other dog would have marked there as well, and also blood be found. If im not wrong, they both marked a finding behind the sofa also the only place they did find spots of blood., but only Eddie, trained for cadaver and blood marked on the clothes, cuddle cat, closeth, car etc? Seems logical, and probably why they used a pure blood dog in addition to Eddie?

Exactly Moa, blood behind the sofa, and Eddie barked and Keela froze, apart from her sweet little tail Keela also alerted with her freeze inside the car and the key fob, but not at the clothing or cuddle cat that Eddie alerted to, so no blood on those items, just cadaverine. Incidently watched long video today, over an hour about the alerts in 5A and the search by the dogs in the final place the McCs stayed in and I am sure there was a second cuddle cat on the floor of the living room, besides the precious on that belonged to Madeleine that was shoved in a cupboard awaiting it's next public airing

The video is on the Martin Grime thread and is at 1 minute 54. eddie knocks over a waste basket and out spills a pink cuddle cat, he then finds one in the cupboard that he alerts to for Cadaverine. So two cuddle cats Must say i found the search very interesting as it showed inside 5A in greater detail.

What you have posted is exactly where the confusion lies. The original question I responded to earlier was about the alerts in the car.

The confusion is that in the Almeida report it says Eddie alerted in the boot. But Eddie wasn't in the car in the video at all or in any of Grimes reports, just outside the car. He didn't alert to the boot but to the car door.

It looks as if there is a discrepancy between the Almeida report and the analysis attached to the report which doesnt show that Eddie alerted inside the boot either, just to the blood on the key fob. In fact that analysis seems to miss out that Eddie did alert on the video to the car door. The reports don't match up with each other about the cars which leads to confusion.

In fact the only report which actually matches what we can see on the video about Eddie is the final report of the AG which says.

[color:be8f=000000]

6 – This dog signalled the lower outside area next to the driver's door of the Renault – 59-DA-27 –
that was rented by the McCanns




7 – Finally it "marked" the key/card of that vehicle when it was hidden under a fire prevention sand box



I have always understood that the cadaver dog did not alert in the actual boot, only the blood dog alerted there. Am I wrong in this ?

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Re: Confusion About Cadaver Odour

Post by LG1968 on 18.10.12 22:05

candyfloss wrote:Martin Grime knows his dogs inside out, he trained them, I don't need anything else, if he said Eddie alerted to Cadaver he did. Enough said. He's never been wrong in 200 cases.

But he didn't say definitely that Eddie alerted to cadaver odour in the car.

He simply said that it is a possibility but that without other evidence then there is no certainty at all.

It is my view that it is possible that the EVRD is alerting to
'cadaver scent'
contaminant or human blood scent. No evidential or intelligence
reliability can
be made from this alert unless it can be confirmed with
corroborating
evidence. The remainder of the vehicles were screened by the
EVRD without
any interest being shown. Therefore the CSI dog was not further
deployed.

And the reports are clear that the PJ didn't find anything but blood in the car boot where Keela alerted and on the Key fob.

That quote from Grime's report also I think answers at least part of the question about Keela's use. She is only used after there has been a general alert to blood or other odour by Eddie.

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Re: Confusion About Cadaver Odour

Post by Guest on 18.10.12 22:12

Well, if Keela didn't alert to blood, then Eddie must have alerted to cadaver scent!
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Re: Confusion About Cadaver Odour

Post by LG1968 on 18.10.12 22:16

candyfloss wrote:Well, if Keela didn't alert to blood, then Eddie must have alerted to cadaver scent!

Who says Keela did not alert to blood. We know that she alerted in the car. Almeida says she alerted to blood in the car. Amaral says traces of human blood were found in the car with the help of Keela and the final report says body fluids (I presume that could mean human blood) were found in the boot where Keela alerted.

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Re: Confusion About Cadaver Odour

Post by Springers are FAB on 18.10.12 22:23

@LG1968 wrote:
candyfloss wrote:Well, if Keela didn't alert to blood, then Eddie must have alerted to cadaver scent!

Who says Keela did not alert to blood. We know that she alerted in the car. Almeida says she alerted to blood in the car. Amaral says traces of human blood were found in the car with the help of Keela and the final report says body fluids (I presume that could mean human blood) were found in the boot where Keela alerted.

I think (please correct me if I'm wrong) Candyfloss means generally, as in WHEREVER keela did not alert to but Eddie did then that MUST be an alert to a cadaver, i.e. the wardrobe, cuddle cat, kate's trousers et al. On this, the car as far as cadaver is concerned it only seems a possibility as Eddie alerts to blood and cadaver, again according to Grime himself.

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Re: Confusion About Cadaver Odour

Post by joyce1938 on 18.10.12 22:27

Mr amaral i believe has said that body fluids can be various ,seemed that it could be fluids where a person may have been kept very cold somewhere for a while ,then moved and leakage could have been body fluids,but not necessarily DNA.I am rubbish at finding where this has been recorded,but o often have reasonable recollection,of some ideas..joyce 1938 does anyone else recall this ?maybe it was body fluids and not blood being spoken of ,i mean which dog detects what?
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Re: Confusion About Cadaver Odour

Post by LG1968 on 18.10.12 22:28

@Springers are FAB wrote:
@LG1968 wrote:
candyfloss wrote:Well, if Keela didn't alert to blood, then Eddie must have alerted to cadaver scent!

Who says Keela did not alert to blood. We know that she alerted in the car. Almeida says she alerted to blood in the car. Amaral says traces of human blood were found in the car with the help of Keela and the final report says body fluids (I presume that could mean human blood) were found in the boot where Keela alerted.

I think (please correct me if I'm wrong) Candyfloss means generally, as in WHEREVER keela did not alert to but Eddie did then that MUST be an alert to a cadaver, i.e. the wardrobe, cuddle cat, kate's trousers et al. On this, the car as far as cadaver is concerned it only seems a possibility as Eddie alerts to blood and cadaver, again according to Grime himself.

I apologise if that is what was meant. But as this thread is about the car alerts I was presuming it was in relation to the car.

Yes, there is a possibility that there was cadaver odour there but the finding of blood and no other corroborative evidence suggests it wasn't. As Grime says.

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Re: Confusion About Cadaver Odour

Post by Springers are FAB on 18.10.12 22:33

@LG1968 wrote:
@Springers are FAB wrote:
@LG1968 wrote:
candyfloss wrote:Well, if Keela didn't alert to blood, then Eddie must have alerted to cadaver scent!

Who says Keela did not alert to blood. We know that she alerted in the car. Almeida says she alerted to blood in the car. Amaral says traces of human blood were found in the car with the help of Keela and the final report says body fluids (I presume that could mean human blood) were found in the boot where Keela alerted.

I think (please correct me if I'm wrong) Candyfloss means generally, as in WHEREVER keela did not alert to but Eddie did then that MUST be an alert to a cadaver, i.e. the wardrobe, cuddle cat, kate's trousers et al. On this, the car as far as cadaver is concerned it only seems a possibility as Eddie alerts to blood and cadaver, again according to Grime himself.

I apologise if that is what was meant. But as this thread is about the car alerts I was presuming it was in relation to the car.

Yes, there is a possibility that there was cadaver odour there but the finding of blood and no other corroborative evidence suggests it wasn't. As Grime says.

Ah yes LG, you are right, the thread is only in relation to the car, I hadn't realised that, I thought it was to do with all the cadaver alerts. Well in that case then I have to agree with you. Cadaver would be only a possibility in the car if both Keela and Eddie alerted, based on Grime's own statement about Eddie being trained to alert to both. How would you determine which he was smelling? Could it be both?

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Re: Confusion About Cadaver Odour

Post by LG1968 on 18.10.12 22:38

@Springers are FAB wrote:
@LG1968 wrote:
@Springers are FAB wrote:
@LG1968 wrote:
candyfloss wrote:Well, if Keela didn't alert to blood, then Eddie must have alerted to cadaver scent!

Who says Keela did not alert to blood. We know that she alerted in the car. Almeida says she alerted to blood in the car. Amaral says traces of human blood were found in the car with the help of Keela and the final report says body fluids (I presume that could mean human blood) were found in the boot where Keela alerted.

I think (please correct me if I'm wrong) Candyfloss means generally, as in WHEREVER keela did not alert to but Eddie did then that MUST be an alert to a cadaver, i.e. the wardrobe, cuddle cat, kate's trousers et al. On this, the car as far as cadaver is concerned it only seems a possibility as Eddie alerts to blood and cadaver, again according to Grime himself.

I apologise if that is what was meant. But as this thread is about the car alerts I was presuming it was in relation to the car.

Yes, there is a possibility that there was cadaver odour there but the finding of blood and no other corroborative evidence suggests it wasn't. As Grime says.

Ah yes LG, you are right, the thread is only in relation to the car, I hadn't realised that, I thought it was to do with all the cadaver alerts. Well in that case then I have to agree with you. Cadaver would be only a possibility in the car if both Keela and Eddie alerted, based on Grime's own statement about Eddie being trained to alert to both. How would you determine which he was smelling? Could it be both?

I don't think you can tell if it was both. The only possible certain cadaver alerts are where there is no alert from Keela.

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Re: Confusion About Cadaver Odour

Post by sami on 18.10.12 22:43

Below is an extract from Martin Grimes report of August 2007. My interpretation of this report is that the cadaver dog alerted to the car, most definately, and this was at the lower part of the drivers door. They then brought in the blood dog because the cadaver dog has alerted, which is how they work, and it was the blood dog who alerted in the actual boot.

It is my understanding that because the cadaver dog indicated at the car, this is enough for the blood dog to start his work. So just one indication from the cadaver dog (Eddie) is enough, he takes a rest and the blood dog (Keela) takes over and searches more thoroughly. He checks everywhere, cadaver dog only needs to give one alert.

Therefore, whether or not there was cadaver odour in the boot is not actually known - the odour was there in relation to the car as a whole, probably strongest for the dog where he alerted.

When you look at the videos made by the PJ of that search, the dog at one stage is running around, away from the car, back again, away from the car. I have seen where Grimes explained this as the dog getting the scent in the air, however he tries to find where it is strongest. So he runs away in one direction but the scent reduces so he runs back in another direction until it gets stronger. Therefore, it was stronger for him at the door, he found an area where the scent was strong enough for him to bark.

The reason the blood dog stays still and just wags his little tail is that they are trained not to touch the evidence and avoid contamination. Indeed I have also read the cadaver dogs never ever bark, in their "normal" life, while at home when the postman calls for example. Not from Martin Grimes this information, just info I picked up along the way, reading about how they are trained. Insignificant to this case, but interesting, imo.



CANINE VEHICLE SEARCHES


Ten
vehicles were screened
in an underground multi
storey car park at Portimao. The vehicles, of which I did not know the
owner details, were parked
on an empty floor with
20-30 feet between each. The vehicle placement video recording and
management of the process was conducted
by the PJ. The EVRD was
then tasked to search the area. When passing a vehicle I now know to be
hired and in the possession
of the McCann family,
the dog's behaviour changed substantially. This then produced an alert
indication at the lower part
of the drivers door
where the dog was biting and barking. I recognise this behaviour as the
dog indicating scent emitting
from the inside of the
vehicle through the seal around the door.



This
vehicle was then subjected to a full physical examination by the PJ and
no human remains were found.
The CSI dog was then
tasked to screen the vehicle. An alert indication was forthcoming from
the rear driver's side of the
boot area. Forensic
samples were taken by the PJ and forwarded to a forensic laboratory in
the U.K.



It
is my view that it is possible that the EVRD is alerting to 'cadaver
scent' contaminant or human blood
scent. No evidential or
intelligence reliability can be made from this alert unless it can be
confirmed with corroborating
evidence. The remainder
of the vehicles were screened by the EVRD without any interest being
shown. Therefore the CSI dog
was not further
deployed.

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Re: Confusion About Cadaver Odour

Post by Guest on 18.10.12 22:50

Eddie not only alerts to the boot, as did keela, but alerts to the door frame

From report posted earlier

In the immense underground car park, Martin commands
Eddie to begin the examination. The dog then intensively sniffs each of
the first three cars, at tyre level, the side doors and the boot, then
all round. When he gets close to the fourth, the McCanns' Renault, he
becomes agitated, raises his nose while running around, as if he is
trying to locate the source of the odour he has detected. Martin tells
him to stop running around and concentrate on the search. Finally, he
starts to growl, bark and wanting to bite the bottom of the driver's
door
and the boot.
The odour is coming from inside. The PJ's experts
examine the vehicle for hours with the help of Keela. At dawn, traces of
human blood are found in places indicated by the female dog: the key
and the boot.
The harvested samples are packed, then sent to a forensic
laboratory in Birmingham, Great Britain



Keela only alerts to the boot, therefore the alert eddie gives is probably to cadaver scent

Watch the video of eddie alerting to the door jam and barking........

[youtube][/youtube]
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Re: Confusion About Cadaver Odour

Post by Guest on 18.10.12 22:52

Sorry sami our posts crossed, but yes Eddie alerted to the bottom of the door, and Keela didn't.
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Re: Confusion About Cadaver Odour

Post by Woofer on 18.10.12 22:53

I think I`m more confused than ever now because its just struck me that dead bodies don`t bleed, so the blood was either from a person in the process of dying or there was congealed blood from a wound still on the body.

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Re: Confusion About Cadaver Odour

Post by Guest on 18.10.12 22:59

@Woofer wrote:I think I`m more confused than ever now because its just struck me that dead bodies don`t bleed, so the blood was either from a person in the process of dying or there was congealed blood from a wound still on the body.

Any blood on a body will contaminate what it lies on. Blood still seeps out of wounds for a very short time, but because the heart has stopped pumping , it will not carry on bleeding, it is only residue that is left in the wound etc. will seep in certain positions. I know I watch Dr G Medical Examiner, she tell me all these things
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Re: Confusion About Cadaver Odour

Post by LG1968 on 18.10.12 23:01

@sami wrote:Below is an extract from Martin Grimes report of August 2007. My interpretation of this report is that the cadaver dog alerted to the car, most definately, and this was at the lower part of the drivers door. They then brought in the blood dog because the cadaver dog has alerted, which is how they work, and it was the blood dog who alerted in the actual boot.

It is my understanding that because the cadaver dog indicated at the car, this is enough for the blood dog to start his work. So just one indication from the cadaver dog (Eddie) is enough, he takes a rest and the blood dog (Keela) takes over and searches more thoroughly. He checks everywhere, cadaver dog only needs to give one alert.

Therefore, whether or not there was cadaver odour in the boot is not actually known - the odour was there in relation to the car as a whole, probably strongest for the dog where he alerted.

When you look at the videos made by the PJ of that search, the dog at one stage is running around, away from the car, back again, away from the car. I have seen where Grimes explained this as the dog getting the scent in the air, however he tries to find where it is strongest. So he runs away in one direction but the scent reduces so he runs back in another direction until it gets stronger. Therefore, it was stronger for him at the door, he found an area where the scent was strong enough for him to bark.

The reason the blood dog stays still and just wags his little tail is that they are trained not to touch the evidence and avoid contamination. Indeed I have also read the cadaver dogs never ever bark, in their "normal" life, while at home when the postman calls for example. Not from Martin Grimes this information, just info I picked up along the way, reading about how they are trained. Insignificant to this case, but interesting, imo.



CANINE VEHICLE SEARCHES


Ten
vehicles were screened
in an underground multi
storey car park at Portimao. The vehicles, of which I did not know the
owner details, were parked
on an empty floor with
20-30 feet between each. The vehicle placement video recording and
management of the process was conducted
by the PJ. The EVRD was
then tasked to search the area. When passing a vehicle I now know to be
hired and in the possession
of the McCann family,
the dog's behaviour changed substantially. This then produced an alert
indication at the lower part
of the drivers door
where the dog was biting and barking. I recognise this behaviour as the
dog indicating scent emitting
from the inside of the
vehicle through the seal around the door.



This
vehicle was then subjected to a full physical examination by the PJ and
no human remains were found.
The CSI dog was then
tasked to screen the vehicle. An alert indication was forthcoming from
the rear driver's side of the
boot area. Forensic
samples were taken by the PJ and forwarded to a forensic laboratory in
the U.K.



It
is my view that it is possible that the EVRD is alerting to 'cadaver
scent' contaminant or human blood
scent. No evidential or
intelligence reliability can be made from this alert unless it can be
confirmed with corroborating
evidence. The remainder
of the vehicles were screened by the EVRD without any interest being
shown. Therefore the CSI dog
was not further
deployed.

Sorry I don't think that what I have highlighted is correct. Eddie alerts to both blood and cadaver scent. So his alert at the car door could have been related to the key fob if that was in the car before the car and fob were moved or to the blood in the boot. Perhaps the seal of the door was not as tight at that door as at the boot where he showed no interest.

LG1968

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Re: Confusion About Cadaver Odour

Post by sami on 18.10.12 23:02

candyfloss wrote:Sorry sami our posts crossed, but yes Eddie alerted to the bottom of the door, and Keela didn't, and the report states this, which I posted in red.


Thanks Candyfloss - was just about to post to ask you do you agree or disagree with me - long day at work and my head hurts ! So good, we are in agreement, there is most definately cadaver odour in the car.

Now the reason I think the boot is a very important issue is this. If for example the odour was from the key fob and the key fob stored in the door, then the odour could have come from transfer - the person who touched the key fob, touched a cadaver.

If there was no odour in the boot, it would suggest there was not necessarily a body ever transported in the boot, but perhaps items used to clean up blood etc. were transported. There was a suggestion (by Amaral I think) there were also fluids which could only be generated by a frozen cadaver. Again these fluids might have come from items used in a clean up of an area.

It really is an important thing, imo, the McCanns claim to fame if you like is that they could not have transported a body in the boot, 25 days later, the worlds media were watching etc. It is actually quite a gruesome thought also. Transporting cleaning items with normal household rubbish though would be much easier. And the McCanns have told us they spent more time going to the dump than the beach.

sami

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