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Confusion About Cadaver Odour

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Re: Confusion About Cadaver Odour

Post by bobbin on 19.10.12 18:48

@Nina wrote:
@bobbin wrote:
candyfloss wrote:I think Eddie is mainly used to detect cadavers, but as a back up alerts to blood as well, This way Mr Grime is able to get more out of his dog. But the difference is Eddie is the cadaver dog, and Keela the blood dog. I would presume that if keela freezes at blood then so would Eddie. Eddie has a different alert for cadaver scent barking. I found this in MG's profile

P Pavlov's theory is used in the case of the E.V.RD. system of alert. He has

been 'conditioned' to give a verbal alert when coming into contact with 'dead

body scent'.
The presence of tangible material is not required to produce the

response.


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm



Note he does not say blood.


I would expect, that if Eddie, went out on a case purely to find blood, then he would act the same way as Keela, i.e. sniff, nose down, and freeze in one spot. If both dogs used then I expect the police are looking for cadaver scent and blood. One barks one freezes.

Otherwise what would be the point. Why would you train one dog one way to find blood, and another dog the other way. That is how I would think the investigation came to the conclusion it was cadaver scent.

Doh, I know what I mean anyway

snipped "He has been 'conditioned' to give a verbal alert when coming into contact with 'dead

body scent'.
The presence of tangible material is not required to produce the response." snipped.

That is very interesting indeed.
He 'barks' if he finds cadaver smell. Fascinating.
Perhaps this is why Martin Grime and the police came out with the idea that they should search for signs of cadaver in the boot of the hired car.
Now another thought I have been chewing over.
I had been wondering why the dogs seem to go backwards and forwards, time after time, before settling or barking.
Initially it looks as though they are uncertain, but then I thought, the dog has some ? 2,000 olfactory nerve cells? (please can someone correct me) and can smell masses and masses of different smells, compared with us humans and our limited human cells.
Now I think I understand, if dogs have that many smells to identify and sort out, no wonder they would need to keep going back and forth, to be sure that they had really sifted out the one they are searching for.

Up to very recently we had two pointers. both sadly died in the last year. They were never trained by us to hunt but both would track from side to side hunting a scent, then the bitch would go to point and the dog would give a secondary point but at the bitch not what she had found. It came naturally to them through their breeding. But they tracked the scent through all other scents as in horse muck and fallen fruits.

I'm sorry about your losing your lovely dogs nina, they become so much part of the family, and I think it is becoming more and more evident from our discussions that dogs are amazing when it comes to their skills in detecting smells.
The police, mountain rescue, hunting dogs etc. would not even be comtemplated as being 'in service companions' if they didn't cut the mustard.
I think Gerry, after all of his bragging and swaggering, is beginning to look as if he is standing all on his own-some, lonesome little self in doubting the police dogs and what skills they can bring to an investigation.

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Re: Confusion About Cadaver Odour

Post by Swizzlestick on 26.11.12 17:12

@bobbin wrote:
@Nina wrote:
@bobbin wrote:
candyfloss wrote:I think Eddie is mainly used to detect cadavers, but as a back up alerts to blood as well, This way Mr Grime is able to get more out of his dog. But the difference is Eddie is the cadaver dog, and Keela the blood dog. I would presume that if keela freezes at blood then so would Eddie. Eddie has a different alert for cadaver scent barking. I found this in MG's profile

P Pavlov's theory is used in the case of the E.V.RD. system of alert. He has

been 'conditioned' to give a verbal alert when coming into contact with 'dead

body scent'.
The presence of tangible material is not required to produce the

response.


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm



Note he does not say blood.


I would expect, that if Eddie, went out on a case purely to find blood, then he would act the same way as Keela, i.e. sniff, nose down, and freeze in one spot. If both dogs used then I expect the police are looking for cadaver scent and blood. One barks one freezes.

Otherwise what would be the point. Why would you train one dog one way to find blood, and another dog the other way. That is how I would think the investigation came to the conclusion it was cadaver scent.

Doh, I know what I mean anyway

snipped "He has been 'conditioned' to give a verbal alert when coming into contact with 'dead

body scent'.
The presence of tangible material is not required to produce the response." snipped.

That is very interesting indeed.
He 'barks' if he finds cadaver smell. Fascinating.
Perhaps this is why Martin Grime and the police came out with the idea that they should search for signs of cadaver in the boot of the hired car.
Now another thought I have been chewing over.
I had been wondering why the dogs seem to go backwards and forwards, time after time, before settling or barking.
Initially it looks as though they are uncertain, but then I thought, the dog has some ? 2,000 olfactory nerve cells? (please can someone correct me) and can smell masses and masses of different smells, compared with us humans and our limited human cells.
Now I think I understand, if dogs have that many smells to identify and sort out, no wonder they would need to keep going back and forth, to be sure that they had really sifted out the one they are searching for.

Up to very recently we had two pointers. both sadly died in the last year. They were never trained by us to hunt but both would track from side to side hunting a scent, then the bitch would go to point and the dog would give a secondary point but at the bitch not what she had found. It came naturally to them through their breeding. But they tracked the scent through all other scents as in horse muck and fallen fruits.

I'm sorry about your losing your lovely dogs nina, they become so much part of the family, and I think it is becoming more and more evident from our discussions that dogs are amazing when it comes to their skills in detecting smells.
The police, mountain rescue, hunting dogs etc. would not even be comtemplated as being 'in service companions' if they didn't cut the mustard.
I think Gerry, after all of his bragging and swaggering, is beginning to look as if he is standing all on his own-some, lonesome little self in doubting the police dogs and what skills they can bring to an investigation.

Just going a little off-thread here, but was wondering if others would like to give an opinion as to why cadaver odour was not detected on GM's clothing, assuming, imo, that he may have carried Madeleine down towards the sea area?
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Re: Confusion About Cadaver Odour

Post by Guest on 26.11.12 18:07

IF, I say IF, it was Gerry carrying a dead Madeleine to the sea, he might have realised that his clothes could become incriminating once checked by dogs or forensics and got rid of them. E.g. in England, where he went shortly afterwards to get Madeleine's DNA [and saved a passenger's life on the plane out and got pick-pocketed whilst withdrawing money in London with his non-existing card]. IMO possible [pants on the master room bed] and nothing more than that.
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Re: Confusion About Cadaver Odour

Post by Swizzlestick on 26.11.12 18:31

Châtelaine wrote:IF, I say IF, it was Gerry carrying a dead Madeleine to the sea, he might have realised that his clothes could become incriminating once checked by dogs or forensics and got rid of them. E.g. in England, where he went shortly afterwards to get Madeleine's DNA [and saved a passenger's life on the plane out and got pick-pocketed whilst withdrawing money in London with his non-existing card]. IMO possible [pants on the master room bed] and nothing more than that.

Thanks for that. I was thinking along the same lines, but then thought that if Gerry had had the presence of mind to discard his clothing IMO, he would have told Kate to do the same thing regarding the items of her clothing that were alerted to by the cadaver dogs, assuming that, IMO, she had contact with a dead Madeleine?

It's a pity that the dogs weren't brought in straight away as I feel their evidence in convincing.
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Re: Confusion About Cadaver Odour

Post by Guest on 26.11.12 18:53

Years ago - I'm not so sure anymore, in fact never have been - I thought that he was going to "dump" Kate into it, if ever the sh•t would hit the fan ... Later I thought that Kate was ready to drop him into it [around the time of the viral video]. But, again, never been sure and still aren't. IMO the only thing is that a lot points to them knowing more than they're saying.
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Re: Confusion About Cadaver Odour

Post by Swizzlestick on 26.11.12 19:08

Châtelaine wrote:Years ago - I'm not so sure anymore, in fact never have been - I thought that he was going to "dump" Kate into it, if ever the sh•t would hit the fan ... Later I thought that Kate was ready to drop him into it [around the time of the viral video]. But, again, never been sure and still aren't. IMO the only thing is that a lot points to them knowing more than they're saying.

Really... I did think that Kate would be the one to "crack" if, IMO, they are guilty.

They do seem strange people IMO, but I feel that if they were totally genuine IMO, they would have the same manner / attitude, but would be a lot more aggressive about stating their innocence...

Not heard of the "viral Video" but I'll try and find it.
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Re: Confusion About Cadaver Odour

Post by russiandoll on 21.08.13 21:28

It appears from the following that if M Grime had brought in a 2nd cadaver dog to do the same work as the now famous spaniel, it might have helped  strengthen the case for death in 5a :

[ link to a site where there is a lot of discussion between people fascinated by the work of these dogs and some experts]


http://www.google.co.uk/url?q=http://www.websleuths.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-152258.html&ei=IiMVUsiwPKWx0AWjoYH4Bg&sa=X&oi=unauthorizedredirect&ct=targetlink&ust=1377118762990968&usg=AFQjCNFz9-n0SFWnpcgjnyJG0jP85OYIAg

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