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Re: cadaver scent in boot

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Re: cadaver scent in boot

Post by Briohazard on 25.10.13 5:19

Hi, newbie, virgin post. Long time lurker.

Just wondering about the scent in the boot of the car detected by the dogs. Transfer of original cadaver scent is possible. Does the timeline allow for the possibility that madeleines body WASN'T transported in the boot, but clothes worn whilst she was originally carried? Could that explain the scent next to the wardrobe as well? Where clothes were thrown on the floor?

I think I read somewhere the parents were aware of the impending dog visit. Could they, being professionals in the medical field, have suddenly had a need to dispose of clothes and that's why the scent was found in a vehicle hired three weeks after her disappearance?

My apologies if this point has been covered already.
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Re: Re: cadaver scent in boot

Post by Jaci on 25.10.13 6:14

Hello Biohazard :)

I'm glad you broached the subject because it's crossed my mind that perhaps the pink blanket had been transported in the boot of the car and/or other items. A last minute clean up of anything that may be connected, but that doesn't explain the red t-shirt or KM's trousers that the dogs alerted to, unless they forgot about those items?

Perhaps a member with more knowledge of the case than me can offer some better input.

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RE: Cadaver Scent in boot

Post by DurhamGuy1967 on 25.10.13 6:45

My first post..

What I've read indicates that not cadaver scent was found on any of Gerry's clothes, just Kate's.  The reason given for this and scent found in 5a and the car was as a result of contact with Kate's clothes which she used at work where she had contact with cadavers. 

Is this possible?

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Re: Re: cadaver scent in boot

Post by uppatoffee on 25.10.13 8:05

Kate was only working part time and yet claims to have come into contact with so many dead people in the weeks before she went away. I'd be concerned about a rerun of the Harold Shipman case. The average GP would not regularly come into contact with that many bodies.

As for clothes, would you not have separate work clothes? You wouldn't take the clothes you'd been wearing when you last came into contact with dead bodies with you on holiday. Well, I wouldn't anyway. It just sounds like a poor attempt to try and explain away an inconvenient truth.
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Re: Re: cadaver scent in boot

Post by OpenMind on 25.10.13 8:06

Have you ever seen any dead bodies lying around at your GP surgery?
I work in one and death is not something we deal with very often at all,  thankfully!

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Re: Re: cadaver scent in boot

Post by bristow on 25.10.13 8:20

Madeleine's cuddlecat was allegedly contaminated with cadaver odour too, apparently because Kate was taking it to work with her (around the dead bodies) never heard anything like it!

Hi Biohazard, I think you will find that the alleged contamination in the boot was bodily fluids, akin to a body being frozen and thawing.

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Re: Re: cadaver scent in boot

Post by PeterMac on 25.10.13 8:22

@OpenMind wrote:Have you ever seen any dead bodies lying around at your GP surgery?
I work in one and death is not something we deal with very often at all,  thankfully!
Indeed. As a police officer I dealt with many more bodies than my brother - a doctor.
Shipman killed his patients but left the house before they actually died, in most cases.
The bodies were dealt with by others - police and ambulance in the first instance
GPs very rarely deal with bodies, except to pronounce life extinct, which does not involve much more than common sense, and sometime a stethoscope.
Certainly no need to "handle" the body

In fairness I think this was a Philomena-ism, rather than something Kate said. Part of the pathetic tempts to retro-fit after the dogs had marked her clothing.
Which was also months after the original incident. Did she NEVER wash her pants ?

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Transference of cadaver odour

Post by worriedmum on 25.10.13 9:19

Having watched the video of the cadaver dog Eddie examining clothing in the underground car park, I would have expected that if ' cadaver odour' was as easily transferable as some have claimed, then it would have also been detected on every other item transported in the same box as the items the dog alerted to. The dog only alerts to a few garments.  Martin Grimes also gives the dog the opportunity to examine the emptied box itself- the dog does not alert.

Likewise, the dog alerted in the apartment to specified locations. Again , if the odour was transferable so easily, surely it would have been spread around by normal human activity such as walking around, the children playing behind the sofa and so on. Kate McCann 's clothes were alerted to, so you would also expect it to be transferred to any surface these clothes came into contact with if transfer was so easily made. In fact I would have expected it to be spread pretty much everywhere if that were true.     The evidence of the dogs ' alerts ties it to specific items and areas.
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Re: Re: cadaver scent in boot

Post by Jaci on 25.10.13 9:32

That's a good point made about transferral WorriedMum! Although I was thinking more on the lines of the blanket being wrapped around Madeleine after she had died and disposed of later rather than transferral, but Bristow has cleared that part up for me now with the mention of bodily fluids.

I think the idea about clothing being transported in the boot of the car can now be tucked away, at least for me anyway.

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Re: Re: cadaver scent in boot

Post by Searcher on 25.10.13 9:36

@worriedmum wrote:Having watched the video of the cadaver dog Eddie examining clothing in the underground car park, I would have expected that if ' cadaver odour' was as easily transferable as some have claimed, then it would have also been detected on every other item transported in the same box as the items the dog alerted to. The dog only alerts to a few garments.  Martin Grimes also gives the dog the opportunity to examine the emptied box itself- the dog does not alert.

Likewise, the dog alerted in the apartment to specified locations. Again , if the odour was transferable so easily, surely it would have been spread around by normal human activity such as walking around, the children playing behind the sofa and so on. Kate McCann 's clothes were alerted to, so you would also expect it to be transferred to any surface these clothes came into contact with if transfer was so easily made. In fact I would have expected it to be spread pretty much everywhere if that were true.     The evidence of the dogs ' alerts ties it to specific items and areas.
Absolutely, worriedmum.  And, as said before here, would a mother really take a child's best comfort toy into prof. work situations involving death and dying, wearing the same clothes that are then taken on holiday.  We are expected to believe this as credible.  Eddie and Keela have been correct in c. 200 cases.  On their evidence alone, someone died in apt. 5a.  Who?

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Re: Re: cadaver scent in boot

Post by worriedmum on 25.10.13 10:05

@Searcher wrote:
Absolutely, worriedmum.  And, as said before here, would a mother really take a child's best comfort toy into prof. work situations involving death and dying, wearing the same clothes that are then taken on holiday.  We are expected to believe this as credible.  Eddie and Keela have been correct in c. 200 cases.  On their evidence alone, someone died in apt. 5a.  Who?
 If I were a doctor there is no way I would take the toy my child spends face to face contact with every night ,into a work situation where infection is the norm...
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Re: Re: cadaver scent in boot

Post by Searcher on 25.10.13 10:15

@worriedmum wrote:
@Searcher wrote:
Absolutely, worriedmum.  And, as said before here, would a mother really take a child's best comfort toy into prof. work situations involving death and dying, wearing the same clothes that are then taken on holiday.  We are expected to believe this as credible.  Eddie and Keela have been correct in c. 200 cases.  On their evidence alone, someone died in apt. 5a.  Who?
 If I were a doctor there is no way I would take the toy my child spends face to face contact with every night ,into a work situation where infection is the norm...
But we are expected to believe that this not only happened, but it was normal, and supposedly "good practice" as well !

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RE: Transfer of Cadaver scent

Post by DurhamGuy1967 on 25.10.13 19:25

Thanks for all the replies, mainly on  best guess scenarios of Kate's contact or not with cadavers. ( my son did 1 weeks work experience with a GP and saw 2 cadavers),  However non addressed my scientific question. My first post....

What I've read indicates that no cadaver scent was found on any of Gerry's clothes, just Kate's.  The reason given for this and scent found in 5a and the car was as a result of contact with Kate's clothes which she used at work where she had contact with cadavers. 

Is this possible?

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Re: Re: cadaver scent in boot

Post by DurhamGuy1967 on 26.10.13 7:56

Thinking more about this..

I'm sure that Keela would have done testing regarding this type of false positive result, whether previously as part of training or as a result of the villa search.

If it is possible that the scent could be transferred from contaminated clothing in the villa then far more of their clothes found in the villa would have been contaminated as well as seating, cupboards etc.

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