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Police Interview - Carol Tramner (Pamela Fenn's Niece)

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Re: Police Interview - Carol Tramner (Pamela Fenn's Niece)

Post by Daisy on 21.11.11 16:52

@tigger wrote:
@Daisy wrote:

"Last night the McCanns got a boost
when the police case appeared
to be undermined by a pensioner who is potentially a key
witness.
Pamela Fenn, 81, lives above the apartment where Madeleine
disappeared and is reported to have told police she heard Madeleine
screaming below.

But yesterday she broke her silence to say it was "absolute
rubbish" she had made any such claims to police. Mrs Fenn said: "I
didn't even know that family was in there."

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-481485/Madeleines-mother-quizzed-Portuguese-police.html#ixzz1eHG7T1ZC



[color=000000]




That's very interesting! So apart from the crying episode, she didn't know which family - if any - were occupying 5a.

As we know Tigger that's just more media lies trying in vain to
discredit Pamela Fenn. I don't think at that point they realised that
Mrs Fenn had already given her statement & it was about to be
exposed to the public. So when that didn't work, Kate had a bash herself
at discrediting the 80+ yr old lady in her 'truthful' book. Amazing how
she remembers this encounter with such clarity considering how
distraught & traumatised she must have been at the time.

According to Pamela Fenn's niece's statement, her Aunt was the only
permanent resident living in that block. For months (out of season) she
lived there virtually alone in peace & quiet. Then, right at the
beginning of the holiday season she gets the Payne family staying in the
apartment directly next door (with all their comings & goings) and
the McCann's in the apartment directly below. Also, according to the OC
daily lists there were no other guests staying in block 5 that week, yet
we're expected to believe PF didn't notice who was staying where? (photo of apartment block linked below).

Just a reminder of the difference in versions of events.

KM book p75: "Then a lady appeared on a balcony – I’m fairly certain this was
about 11pm, before the police arrived – and, in a plummy voice,
inquired, ‘Can someone tell me what all the noise is about?’ I explained
as clearly as I was able, given the state I was in, that my little girl
had been stolen from her bed, to which she casually responded, ‘Oh, I
see,’ almost as if she’d just been told that a can of beans had fallen
off a kitchen shelf. I remember feeling both shocked and angry at this
woefully inadequate and apparently unconcerned reaction. I recollect
that in our outrage, Fiona and I shouted back something rather short and
to the point."


So they basically told the old lady to f**k off?

Mrs Fenn PJ statement:
"During the day nothing unusual happened, until almost 22H30 when,
being alone again, she heard the hysterical shouts from a female person,
calling out "we have let her down" which she repeated several times,
quite upset. She then saw that it was the mother of little Madeleine who
was shouting furiously. Upon leaning over the terrace, after having
seen the mother, she asked the father, GERRY, what was happening to
which he replied that a small girl had been abducted. When asked, she
replied that she did not leave her apartment, just spoke to GERRY from
her balcony, which had a view over the terrace of the floor below. She
found it strange that when GERRY said that a girl had been abducted, he
did not mention that it was his daughter and that he did not mention any
other scenarios. At that moment she offered GERRY help, saying that he
could use her phone to contact the authorities, to which he replied that
this had already been done. It was just after 22H30"


Block 5 apartment numbers: Credit Stella. Sorry unable to upload pics.

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t2213-block-5-apartment-numbers?highlight=block+5

Forgot to say, thanks all, for the additional info.

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“And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music.” 

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Re: Police Interview - Carol Tramner (Pamela Fenn's Niece)

Post by Invinoveritas on 21.11.11 17:10

@Daisy wrote:
@tigger wrote:
@Daisy wrote:

"Last night the McCanns got a boost
when the police case appeared
to be undermined by a pensioner who is potentially a key
witness.
Pamela Fenn, 81, lives above the apartment where Madeleine
disappeared and is reported to have told police she heard Madeleine
screaming below.

But yesterday she broke her silence to say it was "absolute
rubbish" she had made any such claims to police. Mrs Fenn said: "I
didn't even know that family was in there."

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-481485/Madeleines-mother-quizzed-Portuguese-police.html#ixzz1eHG7T1ZC



[color=000000]




That's very interesting! So apart from the crying episode, she didn't know which family - if any - were occupying 5a.

As we know Tigger that's just more media lies trying in vain to
discredit Pamela Fenn. I don't think at that point they realised that
Mrs Fenn had already given her statement & it was about to be
exposed to the public. So when that didn't work, Kate had a bash herself
at discrediting the 80+ yr old lady in her 'truthful' book. Amazing how
she remembers this encounter with such clarity considering how
distraught & traumatised she must have been at the time.

According to Pamela Fenn's niece's statement, her Aunt was the only
permanent resident living in that block. For months (out of season) she
lived there virtually alone in peace & quiet. Then, right at the
beginning of the holiday season she gets the Payne family staying in the
apartment directly next door (with all their comings & goings) and
the McCann's in the apartment directly below. Also, according to the OC
daily lists there were no other guests staying in block 5 that week, yet
we're expected to believe PF didn't notice who was staying where? (photo of apartment block linked below).

Just a reminder of the difference in versions of events.

KM book p75: "Then a lady appeared on a balcony – I’m fairly certain this was
about 11pm, before the police arrived – and, in a plummy voice,
inquired, ‘Can someone tell me what all the noise is about?’ I explained
as clearly as I was able, given the state I was in, that my little girl
had been stolen from her bed, to which she casually responded, ‘Oh, I
see,’ almost as if she’d just been told that a can of beans had fallen
off a kitchen shelf. I remember feeling both shocked and angry at this
woefully inadequate and apparently unconcerned reaction. I recollect
that in our outrage, Fiona and I shouted back something rather short and
to the point."


So they basically told the old lady to f**k off?

Mrs Fenn PJ statement:
"During the day nothing unusual happened, until almost 22H30 when,
being alone again, she heard the hysterical shouts from a female person,
calling out "we have let her down" which she repeated several times,
quite upset. She then saw that it was the mother of little Madeleine who
was shouting furiously. Upon leaning over the terrace, after having
seen the mother, she asked the father, GERRY, what was happening to
which he replied that a small girl had been abducted. When asked, she
replied that she did not leave her apartment, just spoke to GERRY from
her balcony, which had a view over the terrace of the floor below. She
found it strange that when GERRY said that a girl had been abducted, he
did not mention that it was his daughter and that he did not mention any
other scenarios. At that moment she offered GERRY help, saying that he
could use her phone to contact the authorities, to which he replied that
this had already been done. It was just after 22H30"


Block 5 apartment numbers: Credit Stella. Sorry unable to upload pics.

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t2213-block-5-apartment-numbers?highlight=block+5

Forgot to say, thanks all, for the additional info.

Well picked up Daisy, as always, the Mainstream medium try to influence us with unfounded evidence to keep their sales up

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Re: Police Interview - Carol Tramner (Pamela Fenn's Niece)

Post by Upsy Daisy on 21.11.11 18:54

I wonder why Mrs Fenn didn't mention the crying incident to her niece over lunch/afternoon coffee/drinks, seeing has it had only happened a day or so before and she felt the need to phone a friend about it. I wonder if she did tell her and her niece forgot ??? Anyone know??

With regard to KM's mention of meeting Mrs Fenn on the 'night she was TAKEN'..... and she mentioned the following :-


Can someone tell me what all the noise is about?’ I explained
as clearly as I was able, given the state I was in, that my little girl
had been stolen from her bed, to which she casually responded, ‘Oh, I
see,’ almost as if she’d just been told that a can of beans had fallen
off a kitchen shelf.


Hmmm.....freudian slip perhaps???????

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Sean's hair

Post by Upsy Daisy on 21.11.11 19:00

Just to mention re. Sean's hair. My nephew had blonde curly hair when he was born and as he has aged (now 11) his hair has turned dark brunette and straight.

I wonder also if Madeleine's hair was on it's way to turning brown and those samples they found were parts of her that had already turned darker, the ones they apparently said did not match her profile so they did not test them...durrr.... silly people, as if we are falling for THAT one....

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Re: Police Interview - Carol Tramner (Pamela Fenn's Niece)

Post by Daisy on 21.11.11 19:03

@Upsy Daisy wrote:I wonder why Mrs Fenn didn't mention the crying incident to her niece over lunch/afternoon coffee/drinks, seeing has it had only happened a day or so before and she felt the need to phone a friend about it. I wonder if she did tell her and her niece forgot ??? Anyone know??

I've wondered that too, can't find any mention of it anywhere. Again, I would have thought this was something highly relevant that Detective Messiah would have questioned the niece about.

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Re: Police Interview - Carol Tramner (Pamela Fenn's Niece)

Post by Upsy Daisy on 21.11.11 19:11

Yes Daisy, definitely, also I wonder, did the friend who received the call from Mrs Fenn about the crying incident ever corroborate this story???

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Who Did Carole Trammer-Fenn See?

Post by mrcibubur on 19.09.12 6:03

The Thread makes the point that Pamela Fenn was a long term resident at the Ocean Club Apartment and was certainly able to observe quite a bit of comings and goings at the Complex. I am unclear on all that I am reading whether her Niece Carole was purely visiting on the afternoon of Thursday 3rd May or actually staying there for a week or so. It may or may not be relevant but it may help us to get an impression of how well the Fenns would have known what the Tapas 9 could have been doing to some degree.

Carole Fenn has apparently observed a man leaving apartment 5B between 4pm and 5pm the Apartment of the Oldfields at a time when the Oldfields were apparently at the beach until late afternoon. I thought the Oldfields ate with their companions and children in the Restaurants until around 6pm and that was confirmed by CCTV footage. Am I wrong about this? Is it possible that one of the Oldfields was not at the beach as alleged and that the blonde haired man was a 'visitor' rather than someone involved in any abduction?

There seems little doubt that Madeleine was crying late on the night of Tuesday 1st May in Apartment 5A and while her Mother was there and her Father was not. This is something which Pamela Fenn has appeared to be testified to.

It seems perfectly feasible to me that Pamela Fenn would enquire what the commotion was all about in the apartment below her at around 10.30pm but not without coming down herself or getting involved. Here I am assuming she was alone and Carole was living elsewhere or I suspect that the commotion would have disturbed Carole as well and she would have been ultimately asked to help in the search for the little girl. It would seem more likely than not that Pamela Fenn would offer to help in a moment of communication, however little that could be, rather than say something which would draw sharp words to an uninformed old woman. We were not there, so we do not know.

One of the other Forums has focused a fair bit of time on the fact that Kate McCann refers to Carole Fenn as the sixth witness in support of the McCann theory for abduction but Dave Edgar and his team of investigators do not appear to have taken seriously the Carole Fenn sighting in spite of it being in the PJ Files published 2008. I think I am interpreting this correctly but I stand to be corrected on any point.

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Re: Police Interview - Carol Tramner (Pamela Fenn's Niece)

Post by tigger on 19.09.12 6:59

I didn't take part in a rather long discussion on this in January this year I believe - https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t2213-block-5-apartment-numbers?highlight=block+5

It seems that the Tranner evidence and sighting is debatable.
In any case this is the only sighting of a blonde man.
All the other descriptions have been of decidedly creepy, dark-haired men. So Kate - as far as I can see - is very happy with a stranger visiting the Oldfield's flat but not with the colour of his hair.




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Re: Police Interview - Carol Tramner (Pamela Fenn's Niece)

Post by sonic72 on 19.09.12 22:26

@mrcibubur wrote:
There seems little doubt that Madeleine was crying late on the night of Tuesday 1st May in Apartment 5A and while her Mother was there and her Father was not. This is something which Pamela Fenn has appeared to be testified to.

Maybe because she cried for so long the mother gave her 'something' to 'settle' her down, and gave her too much?

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Re: Police Interview - Carol Tramner (Pamela Fenn's Niece)

Post by jd on 20.09.12 2:21

When I first read all the statements, Carole Tramners's statement was the only one that seemed genuine to me (apart from DW 1st statement). I admit I need to read it again after the discussions in topics since, as well as having greater knowledge on the case... but first impressions were that this was genuine

The blonde man...Maybe it was one of the financiers..maybe it was Edmonds, Naylor or Weinburger? Maybe it was someone in the business they were there for that she saw, and who is being protected

The topic Tigger referred to I got lost after the troll invasion. From what I can remember there was speculation of CT having another apartment in that block where the tapas 9 stayed

"There seems little doubt that Madeleine was crying late on the night of Tuesday 1st May in Apartment 5A"....Nobody knows for definite this was Maddie, it is only assumed. I come from the POV that Maddie was not there on this day....30th April


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Re: Police Interview - Carol Tramner (Pamela Fenn's Niece)

Post by tigger on 20.09.12 6:43

@sonic72 wrote:
@mrcibubur wrote:
There seems little doubt that Madeleine was crying late on the night of Tuesday 1st May in Apartment 5A and while her Mother was there and her Father was not. This is something which Pamela Fenn has appeared to be testified to.

Maybe because she cried for so long the mother gave her 'something' to 'settle' her down, and gave her too much?

But for the crying episode everything falls into place very nicely for JD's theory. (and mine too)
It is very likely that Kate was in 5a and fired off six or seven calls in quick succession - these ceased about two minutes before the crying began. So there are four possibilities:
The child was crying because the mother (who could not be paying her attention whilst phoning ) left.
The crying was a recording.
The crying was another child.
Mrs. Fenn was wrong.

We can discount the last - because the McCanns were very insistent that the police should know about the crying, having told them right from the start about Maddie telling them.
I do keep in mind that these people's minds do not work like those of 'normal' people, otherwise we'd not be here. So I feel this was part of the story and proof that Maddie was alive at that time. Imo she wasn't.

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Re: Police Interview - Carol Tramner (Pamela Fenn's Niece)

Post by tigger on 20.09.12 6:56

@ jd and sonic72
Here is the topic on Mrs. Fenn's niece.

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t4236-carole-tranmer?highlight=praia

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Re: Police Interview - Carol Tramner (Pamela Fenn's Niece)

Post by jd on 20.09.12 16:55

the McCanns were very insistent that the police should know about the crying, having told them right from the start about Maddie telling them.

To me there lies the problem. The mccanns making the police know about the crying from their very first statement. They only said it as part of the sell of their abduction story imo

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Re: Police Interview - Carol Tramner (Pamela Fenn's Niece)

Post by tigger on 20.09.12 18:03

@jd wrote:
the McCanns were very insistent that the police should know about the crying, having told them right from the start about Maddie telling them.

To me there lies the problem. The mccanns making the police know about the crying from their very first statement. They only said it as part of the sell of their abduction story imo

From our point of view it doesn't benefit the McCanns - this crying. Bad parents etc.
Perhaps the solution is that in their minds and to prop up their story of a paedophile having done a 'recce' it does support their story.

The length of the crying is a point they never mention. So it's the crying that's important, not the hour and a half that she was apparently alone, because that doesn't fit with the checks.
Considering how early this was mentioned and part of the 'story' and how insistent the mcCanns were about it, it is also possible that they came to regret this early decision. The crying episode wasn't public knowledge until some time in August or September and apparently they were very upset about that.
It may explain why mrs. Fenn was singled out for especially vicious comments in the book. I believe the leak was via Mrs. Fenn, although I'm not sure.
Minds like corkscrews imo.

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Re: Police Interview - Carol Tramner (Pamela Fenn's Niece)

Post by jd on 20.09.12 19:14

@tigger wrote: From our point of view it doesn't benefit the McCanns - this crying. Bad parents etc.
Perhaps the solution is that in their minds and to prop up their story of a paedophile having done a 'recce' it does support their story.

The length of the crying is a point they never mention. So it's the crying that's important, not the hour and a half that she was apparently alone, because that doesn't fit with the checks.
Considering how early this was mentioned and part of the 'story' and how insistent the mcCanns were about it, it is also possible that they came to regret this early decision. The crying episode wasn't public knowledge until some time in August or September and apparently they were very upset about that.
It may explain why mrs. Fenn was singled out for especially vicious comments in the book. I believe the leak was via Mrs. Fenn, although I'm not sure.
Minds like corkscrews imo.

I think they were aware of Mrs Fenn heard crying during the week and they twisted this to their advantage and pre emptied her. I think they were worried about what she would say and when kate mccann is worried about someone revealing the truth she verbally attacks them. Defence mechanism. The crying on May 1st could have been for another reason after what happened 30th April. This would make total sense, as well as the phone call/texts that day on May 1st, quite a flurry. Monday shock, Tuesday sorting it out

One other thought, Mrs Fenn lived at OC, so one would assume she probably knew the owners aka the Symingtons

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