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Police Interview - Carol Tramner (Pamela Fenn's Niece) - Page 2 Mm11

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Police Interview - Carol Tramner (Pamela Fenn's Niece)

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Post by Daisy on 21.11.11 16:52

@tigger wrote:
@Daisy wrote:

"Last night the McCanns got a boost
when the police case appeared
to be undermined by a pensioner who is potentially a key
witness.
Pamela Fenn, 81, lives above the apartment where Madeleine
disappeared and is reported to have told police she heard Madeleine
screaming below.

But yesterday she broke her silence to say it was "absolute
rubbish" she had made any such claims to police. Mrs Fenn said: "I
didn't even know that family was in there."

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-481485/Madeleines-mother-quizzed-Portuguese-police.html#ixzz1eHG7T1ZC



[color=000000]




That's very interesting! So apart from the crying episode, she didn't know which family - if any - were occupying 5a.

As we know Tigger that's just more media lies trying in vain to
discredit Pamela Fenn. I don't think at that point they realised that
Mrs Fenn had already given her statement & it was about to be
exposed to the public. So when that didn't work, Kate had a bash herself
at discrediting the 80+ yr old lady in her 'truthful' book. Amazing how
she remembers this encounter with such clarity considering how
distraught & traumatised she must have been at the time.

According to Pamela Fenn's niece's statement, her Aunt was the only
permanent resident living in that block. For months (out of season) she
lived there virtually alone in peace & quiet. Then, right at the
beginning of the holiday season she gets the Payne family staying in the
apartment directly next door (with all their comings & goings) and
the McCann's in the apartment directly below. Also, according to the OC
daily lists there were no other guests staying in block 5 that week, yet
we're expected to believe PF didn't notice who was staying where? Police Interview - Carol Tramner (Pamela Fenn's Niece) - Page 2 172348 (photo of apartment block linked below).

Just a reminder of the difference in versions of events.

KM book p75: "Then a lady appeared on a balcony – I’m fairly certain this was
about 11pm, before the police arrived – and, in a plummy voice,
inquired, ‘Can someone tell me what all the noise is about?’ I explained
as clearly as I was able, given the state I was in, that my little girl
had been stolen from her bed, to which she casually responded, ‘Oh, I
see,’ almost as if she’d just been told that a can of beans had fallen
off a kitchen shelf. I remember feeling both shocked and angry at this
woefully inadequate and apparently unconcerned reaction. I recollect
that in our outrage, Fiona and I shouted back something rather short and
to the point."


So they basically told the old lady to f**k off?

Mrs Fenn PJ statement:
"During the day nothing unusual happened, until almost 22H30 when,
being alone again, she heard the hysterical shouts from a female person,
calling out "we have let her down" which she repeated several times,
quite upset. She then saw that it was the mother of little Madeleine who
was shouting furiously. Upon leaning over the terrace, after having
seen the mother, she asked the father, GERRY, what was happening to
which he replied that a small girl had been abducted. When asked, she
replied that she did not leave her apartment, just spoke to GERRY from
her balcony, which had a view over the terrace of the floor below. She
found it strange that when GERRY said that a girl had been abducted, he
did not mention that it was his daughter and that he did not mention any
other scenarios. At that moment she offered GERRY help, saying that he
could use her phone to contact the authorities, to which he replied that
this had already been done. It was just after 22H30"


Block 5 apartment numbers: Credit Stella. Sorry unable to upload pics.

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t2213-block-5-apartment-numbers?highlight=block+5

Forgot to say, thanks all, for the additional info. Police Interview - Carol Tramner (Pamela Fenn's Niece) - Page 2 847771

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Post by Invinoveritas on 21.11.11 17:10

@Daisy wrote:
@tigger wrote:
@Daisy wrote:

"Last night the McCanns got a boost
when the police case appeared
to be undermined by a pensioner who is potentially a key
witness.
Pamela Fenn, 81, lives above the apartment where Madeleine
disappeared and is reported to have told police she heard Madeleine
screaming below.

But yesterday she broke her silence to say it was "absolute
rubbish" she had made any such claims to police. Mrs Fenn said: "I
didn't even know that family was in there."

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-481485/Madeleines-mother-quizzed-Portuguese-police.html#ixzz1eHG7T1ZC



[color=000000]




That's very interesting! So apart from the crying episode, she didn't know which family - if any - were occupying 5a.

As we know Tigger that's just more media lies trying in vain to
discredit Pamela Fenn. I don't think at that point they realised that
Mrs Fenn had already given her statement & it was about to be
exposed to the public. So when that didn't work, Kate had a bash herself
at discrediting the 80+ yr old lady in her 'truthful' book. Amazing how
she remembers this encounter with such clarity considering how
distraught & traumatised she must have been at the time.

According to Pamela Fenn's niece's statement, her Aunt was the only
permanent resident living in that block. For months (out of season) she
lived there virtually alone in peace & quiet. Then, right at the
beginning of the holiday season she gets the Payne family staying in the
apartment directly next door (with all their comings & goings) and
the McCann's in the apartment directly below. Also, according to the OC
daily lists there were no other guests staying in block 5 that week, yet
we're expected to believe PF didn't notice who was staying where? Police Interview - Carol Tramner (Pamela Fenn's Niece) - Page 2 172348 (photo of apartment block linked below).

Just a reminder of the difference in versions of events.

KM book p75: "Then a lady appeared on a balcony – I’m fairly certain this was
about 11pm, before the police arrived – and, in a plummy voice,
inquired, ‘Can someone tell me what all the noise is about?’ I explained
as clearly as I was able, given the state I was in, that my little girl
had been stolen from her bed, to which she casually responded, ‘Oh, I
see,’ almost as if she’d just been told that a can of beans had fallen
off a kitchen shelf. I remember feeling both shocked and angry at this
woefully inadequate and apparently unconcerned reaction. I recollect
that in our outrage, Fiona and I shouted back something rather short and
to the point."


So they basically told the old lady to f**k off?

Mrs Fenn PJ statement:
"During the day nothing unusual happened, until almost 22H30 when,
being alone again, she heard the hysterical shouts from a female person,
calling out "we have let her down" which she repeated several times,
quite upset. She then saw that it was the mother of little Madeleine who
was shouting furiously. Upon leaning over the terrace, after having
seen the mother, she asked the father, GERRY, what was happening to
which he replied that a small girl had been abducted. When asked, she
replied that she did not leave her apartment, just spoke to GERRY from
her balcony, which had a view over the terrace of the floor below. She
found it strange that when GERRY said that a girl had been abducted, he
did not mention that it was his daughter and that he did not mention any
other scenarios. At that moment she offered GERRY help, saying that he
could use her phone to contact the authorities, to which he replied that
this had already been done. It was just after 22H30"


Block 5 apartment numbers: Credit Stella. Sorry unable to upload pics.

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t2213-block-5-apartment-numbers?highlight=block+5

Forgot to say, thanks all, for the additional info. Police Interview - Carol Tramner (Pamela Fenn's Niece) - Page 2 847771

Well picked up Daisy, as always, the Mainstream medium try to influence us with unfounded evidence to keep their sales up

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Post by Upsy Daisy on 21.11.11 18:54

I wonder why Mrs Fenn didn't mention the crying incident to her niece over lunch/afternoon coffee/drinks, seeing has it had only happened a day or so before and she felt the need to phone a friend about it. I wonder if she did tell her and her niece forgot ??? Anyone know??

With regard to KM's mention of meeting Mrs Fenn on the 'night she was TAKEN'..... and she mentioned the following :-


Can someone tell me what all the noise is about?’ I explained
as clearly as I was able, given the state I was in, that my little girl
had been stolen from her bed, to which she casually responded, ‘Oh, I
see,’ almost as if she’d just been told that a can of beans had fallen
off a kitchen shelf.


Hmmm.....freudian slip perhaps???????

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Post by Upsy Daisy on 21.11.11 19:00

Just to mention re. Sean's hair. My nephew had blonde curly hair when he was born and as he has aged (now 11) his hair has turned dark brunette and straight.

I wonder also if Madeleine's hair was on it's way to turning brown and those samples they found were parts of her that had already turned darker, the ones they apparently said did not match her profile so they did not test them...durrr.... silly people, as if we are falling for THAT one....

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Post by Daisy on 21.11.11 19:03

@Upsy Daisy wrote:I wonder why Mrs Fenn didn't mention the crying incident to her niece over lunch/afternoon coffee/drinks, seeing has it had only happened a day or so before and she felt the need to phone a friend about it. I wonder if she did tell her and her niece forgot ??? Anyone know??

I've wondered that too, can't find any mention of it anywhere. Again, I would have thought this was something highly relevant that Detective Messiah would have questioned the niece about.

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Post by Upsy Daisy on 21.11.11 19:11

Yes Daisy, definitely, also I wonder, did the friend who received the call from Mrs Fenn about the crying incident ever corroborate this story???

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Post by mrcibubur on 19.09.12 6:03

The Thread makes the point that Pamela Fenn was a long term resident at the Ocean Club Apartment and was certainly able to observe quite a bit of comings and goings at the Complex. I am unclear on all that I am reading whether her Niece Carole was purely visiting on the afternoon of Thursday 3rd May or actually staying there for a week or so. It may or may not be relevant but it may help us to get an impression of how well the Fenns would have known what the Tapas 9 could have been doing to some degree.

Carole Fenn has apparently observed a man leaving apartment 5B between 4pm and 5pm the Apartment of the Oldfields at a time when the Oldfields were apparently at the beach until late afternoon. I thought the Oldfields ate with their companions and children in the Restaurants until around 6pm and that was confirmed by CCTV footage. Am I wrong about this? Is it possible that one of the Oldfields was not at the beach as alleged and that the blonde haired man was a 'visitor' rather than someone involved in any abduction?

There seems little doubt that Madeleine was crying late on the night of Tuesday 1st May in Apartment 5A and while her Mother was there and her Father was not. This is something which Pamela Fenn has appeared to be testified to.

It seems perfectly feasible to me that Pamela Fenn would enquire what the commotion was all about in the apartment below her at around 10.30pm but not without coming down herself or getting involved. Here I am assuming she was alone and Carole was living elsewhere or I suspect that the commotion would have disturbed Carole as well and she would have been ultimately asked to help in the search for the little girl. It would seem more likely than not that Pamela Fenn would offer to help in a moment of communication, however little that could be, rather than say something which would draw sharp words to an uninformed old woman. We were not there, so we do not know.

One of the other Forums has focused a fair bit of time on the fact that Kate McCann refers to Carole Fenn as the sixth witness in support of the McCann theory for abduction but Dave Edgar and his team of investigators do not appear to have taken seriously the Carole Fenn sighting in spite of it being in the PJ Files published 2008. I think I am interpreting this correctly but I stand to be corrected on any point.
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Post by tigger on 19.09.12 6:59

I didn't take part in a rather long discussion on this in January this year I believe - https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t2213-block-5-apartment-numbers?highlight=block+5

It seems that the Tranner evidence and sighting is debatable.
In any case this is the only sighting of a blonde man.
All the other descriptions have been of decidedly creepy, dark-haired men. So Kate - as far as I can see - is very happy with a stranger visiting the Oldfield's flat but not with the colour of his hair.




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Post by sonic72 on 19.09.12 22:26

@mrcibubur wrote:
There seems little doubt that Madeleine was crying late on the night of Tuesday 1st May in Apartment 5A and while her Mother was there and her Father was not. This is something which Pamela Fenn has appeared to be testified to.

Maybe because she cried for so long the mother gave her 'something' to 'settle' her down, and gave her too much?

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Post by jd on 20.09.12 2:21

When I first read all the statements, Carole Tramners's statement was the only one that seemed genuine to me (apart from DW 1st statement). I admit I need to read it again after the discussions in topics since, as well as having greater knowledge on the case... but first impressions were that this was genuine

The blonde man...Maybe it was one of the financiers..maybe it was Edmonds, Naylor or Weinburger? Maybe it was someone in the business they were there for that she saw, and who is being protected

The topic Tigger referred to I got lost after the troll invasion. From what I can remember there was speculation of CT having another apartment in that block where the tapas 9 stayed

"There seems little doubt that Madeleine was crying late on the night of Tuesday 1st May in Apartment 5A"....Nobody knows for definite this was Maddie, it is only assumed. I come from the POV that Maddie was not there on this day....30th April


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Post by tigger on 20.09.12 6:43

@sonic72 wrote:
@mrcibubur wrote:
There seems little doubt that Madeleine was crying late on the night of Tuesday 1st May in Apartment 5A and while her Mother was there and her Father was not. This is something which Pamela Fenn has appeared to be testified to.

Maybe because she cried for so long the mother gave her 'something' to 'settle' her down, and gave her too much?

But for the crying episode everything falls into place very nicely for JD's theory. (and mine too)
It is very likely that Kate was in 5a and fired off six or seven calls in quick succession - these ceased about two minutes before the crying began. So there are four possibilities:
The child was crying because the mother (who could not be paying her attention whilst phoning ) left.
The crying was a recording.
The crying was another child.
Mrs. Fenn was wrong.

We can discount the last - because the McCanns were very insistent that the police should know about the crying, having told them right from the start about Maddie telling them.
I do keep in mind that these people's minds do not work like those of 'normal' people, otherwise we'd not be here. So I feel this was part of the story and proof that Maddie was alive at that time. Imo she wasn't.

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Post by tigger on 20.09.12 6:56

@ jd and sonic72
Here is the topic on Mrs. Fenn's niece.

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t4236-carole-tranmer?highlight=praia

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Post by jd on 20.09.12 16:55

the McCanns were very insistent that the police should know about the crying, having told them right from the start about Maddie telling them.

To me there lies the problem. The mccanns making the police know about the crying from their very first statement. They only said it as part of the sell of their abduction story imo

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Post by tigger on 20.09.12 18:03

@jd wrote:
the McCanns were very insistent that the police should know about the crying, having told them right from the start about Maddie telling them.

To me there lies the problem. The mccanns making the police know about the crying from their very first statement. They only said it as part of the sell of their abduction story imo

From our point of view it doesn't benefit the McCanns - this crying. Bad parents etc.
Perhaps the solution is that in their minds and to prop up their story of a paedophile having done a 'recce' it does support their story.

The length of the crying is a point they never mention. So it's the crying that's important, not the hour and a half that she was apparently alone, because that doesn't fit with the checks.
Considering how early this was mentioned and part of the 'story' and how insistent the mcCanns were about it, it is also possible that they came to regret this early decision. The crying episode wasn't public knowledge until some time in August or September and apparently they were very upset about that.
It may explain why mrs. Fenn was singled out for especially vicious comments in the book. I believe the leak was via Mrs. Fenn, although I'm not sure.
Minds like corkscrews imo.

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Post by jd on 20.09.12 19:14

@tigger wrote: From our point of view it doesn't benefit the McCanns - this crying. Bad parents etc.
Perhaps the solution is that in their minds and to prop up their story of a paedophile having done a 'recce' it does support their story.

The length of the crying is a point they never mention. So it's the crying that's important, not the hour and a half that she was apparently alone, because that doesn't fit with the checks.
Considering how early this was mentioned and part of the 'story' and how insistent the mcCanns were about it, it is also possible that they came to regret this early decision. The crying episode wasn't public knowledge until some time in August or September and apparently they were very upset about that.
It may explain why mrs. Fenn was singled out for especially vicious comments in the book. I believe the leak was via Mrs. Fenn, although I'm not sure.
Minds like corkscrews imo.

I think they were aware of Mrs Fenn heard crying during the week and they twisted this to their advantage and pre emptied her. I think they were worried about what she would say and when kate mccann is worried about someone revealing the truth she verbally attacks them. Defence mechanism. The crying on May 1st could have been for another reason after what happened 30th April. This would make total sense, as well as the phone call/texts that day on May 1st, quite a flurry. Monday shock, Tuesday sorting it out

One other thought, Mrs Fenn lived at OC, so one would assume she probably knew the owners aka the Symingtons

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Post by sharonl on 05.04.20 22:36

Carole Tranmer's description of Mrs Fenns' apartment and access to it.

Was there really a burglar?

CT'When my uncle died, they had a villa close to Lagos, but when he died of Alzheimer's, she sold it to buy the site in Luz. She bought it because it was surrounded by people and it was easy for her to come and go as she did not want a big site. She bought it in 2003'since 2003 and it is the second or third floor, I am never certain, but I believe that there is one more apartment

DC1485'ground floor... ground floor, first floor'

CT'No, she is the third, I believe that she is on the third floor.

DC1485'Third floor.

CT'There is only one on top, therefore, she is on the third floor, at the end apartment. Once there, you take the elevator or the stairs. There is no other entrance or exit. You go directly to her door. She lives at the end. There is no other access.

DC1485'Therefore, when one leaves the elevator, to which side does one walk, left or right'

CT'You turn left.

DC1485'Sure.

CT'You walk, as it is a long corridor. It is open at the back part, it is an open corridor open in such a way one can see the front because the back part, if you can call that part which is turned toward the pool, but the front part of the building, is in truth the back of the same. Does this make sense'

DC1485'Yes, that makes sense.

CT'Because this is the entry, the only entry point and exit point, after this there is only the veranda and the terrace and nothing more. It has been there since 2003.

DC1485'And when you enter, give me a description of the apartment.

CT'I will describe what one sees when entering. Well, when one enters there is a small entrance hall where you find her room and the living area. After, there is one more room on the opposite side of the small veranda. It is not really a veranda but a passage where one can walk; there is a window and an entrance door. This window is normally covered by a closed blind because it is the guest room; after that is a front door in such a position'the window is there and the door and when one enters there is an access door to the to the guest room and after, her room, which is at the edge of the building.

DC1485'Yes.

CT'One passes through there and there is a bathroom and through the entrance hall there is a guest room, a kitchen and an eating area. After the living area, there is a big open terrace'where we would usually go. It is completely open.

DC1485'When you are on the terrace, to which direction are you turned'

CT'We are turned to a beautiful view of the ocean and all the clay roofs of the village, where one can see the pool, the reception area, the pool zone, the tennis courts, and one could see the roof of the Tapas bar. There are trees and bushes between all of this, so when one looks out, there are only roof tops, the small homes and other villas. It is an incredible view.

DC1485'Who else lives there'

CT' Actually, she is the only resident, which may seem strange but she wants to be there. So she is the only resident. All the other owners, the majority of them, more or less, are people who acquired the apartments and rent them or else use them only for holidays. For this reason, there are times in the year when she is alone.

DC1485'And who else lives with her'

CT' She is completely alone.

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Post by sharonl on 05.04.20 22:37

When was Carole Tramner really in Portugal?


CT'We arrived more or less in the end of April.

DC1485'Yes.

CT'Therefore, it was... my birthday was on the 1st, Tuesday, and Thursday was the 1st of May.

DC1485'Yes.

CT'Thus, we arrived the Saturday before.

DC1485'Let me show you what you said, where I want to arrive, ma'am, you returned to Portugal after the disappearance of Madeleine'

CT'No.

DC1485'So that date is incorrect'

CT'Yes. It was in fact in April.

DC1485'April, this is it then'

CT'Yes, I should have read this.

DC1485'Yes.

CT'Or no, I don't know.

DC1485'It says here, Saturday, the 28th of May.

CT'It was the 28th of April because it was on the 3rd, Thursday, when we took my aunt to lunch.

CT'Yes and after we went to visit her on Sunday. We visited her on the 29th of April.

DC1485'And here it says May, thus this statement is incorrect, right'

CT'Yes of course.

DC1485'Good. Let us clarify the statement collected on the 8th of May, relative to the dates referred to.

CT'Yes, it was wrong, it was in April.

DC1485'In fact it should be Saturday, the 28th of April.

CT'Sure.

DC1485'This is correct, of course it was.

CT'I got confused when I read this.

DC1485'Yes, I would also get confused.

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Post by crusader on 12.04.20 10:00

Reading through Carol Tramner's statement, again, I was making allowances because I thought she was very old. I must have read her statement 10 times and never looked at her age.
DC Ivor Messiah also added to the confusion by treating her as an old lady  and confusing her, my mental image of her was an old posh lady.
She was only 59 in 2007.!!
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Post by Lance De Boils on 06.07.20 14:33

See my " Dating the Photos" thread. 
Shame some of the early photos have been swiped. Got them here somewhere. Unless anyone brighter can fill in the blanks?
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Post by Lance De Boils on 06.07.20 14:36

Off the top of my head , Mrs Fenn mentioned her son or in-law worked for the EU?
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Post by Doug D on 06.07.20 21:06

Lance de Boils:
'
'See my " Dating the Photos" thread.


Have you got a link to the thread? I've searched and can't find it.
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Post by Lance De Boils on 09.07.20 22:31

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t6173-dating-the-photos?

A whole bunch of pictures have been swiped from the beginning.

Have got them somewhere. 

Admin - where did those photos go and for what reason? (Before I repost.)
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Post by Jill Havern on 09.07.20 22:34

I did tell you in an email that you'd copied them from Nigel's mccannfiles and he deleted his site.

You need to upload any new ones direct to this forum if you want them hosted permanently.

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Post by Lance De Boils on 09.07.20 22:39

In the meantime, if there are particular ones members would like to see, let me know and I'll try to reincorperate them here.
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Post by sharonl on 09.07.20 23:15

Maybe you could upload them into the Gallery in the header, it hasn't been used much though.

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