Photographs and memories

The picture of the girl on the top left over the horse is nothing like the other Maddies. Her whole structure is different....or does my brain to re-engaged!

jd wrote:The picture of the girl on the top left over the horse is nothing like the other Maddies. Her whole structure is different....or does my brain to re-engaged!

Hi JD, she certainly has a very square chin and very wide set eyes in that picture. But some of the other photos have a square chin, some a very pointy chin. The horse photo just makes me so sad, it is one of quite a few, trying to smile but the smile not going further than a grimace.

jd wrote:The picture of the girl on the top left over the horse is nothing like the other Maddies. Her whole structure is different....or does my brain to re-engaged!

I agree. The eyes on this photo also seem to have been messed about with too - very fuzzy.

Thanks for your feedback on my post Tigger, I shall ponder on what you say.

tigger wrote:

Daisy wrote:If Madeleine is dead, wouldn't it make sense for her remains to be buried with her Grandfather John McCann in St Johnstone Donegal? Apparently, (according to Joe People's, Bartender at Mccann Pub & UNDERTAKER) the reason the Mccann clan visit Donegal every Easter is to mark the anniversay of the death of Johnny mcCann. His headstone was only erected there in 2008 - 3 years after he died. I'm thinking, this way, the family could visit the grave with no questions asked, without raising any suspicion? Just a thought.

In the first place, we have Kate herself who stated that their visit to Donegal in 2007 was the first. In the second place, it isn't entirely proved they were ever there. Joe Peoples barely knows them.
I am absolutely not in favour of having Maddie interred somewhere in the UK or Ireland. That implies a certain amount of piety and consideration for the child they never had when she was alive. These are not normal people. The whole religious charade was to satisfy friends and family (I believe Michael Wright is quite religious and may have converted to catholicism) who were complicit in the cover up.
If you can make it to Donegal, that will be interesting!

When a headstone is erected there is some disturbance of the ground, consecrated ground, and sufficient ground moved to bury an urn, or cremated remains, but would there be enough earth removed for the body of a child to be interred.

I agree it is the ideal place for the family to return to pay condolences, and though Kate says it was the first time they went it doesn't mean that it will be the last.

Re their piety, I am not Catholic but consider myself a christian, though my church visits are few and far between. Yes I know that Kate's mother made the comment that they were not particularly religious, but that doesn't make them non believers, just not active re church visits, bet they are now though [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Daisy wrote:

Get 'em Gonçalo wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

These are the 2 most alike photos I've seen of Madeleine. However, the first one is supposedly taken just 3 weeks earlier than the 2nd pic; surely it would take a lot longer than that for the sun to bleach her hair to such a degree?

Then we have the 'tennis girl' photo, supposedly taken in between these 2 photos, that doesn't look like this girl at all! Confused? you bet I am!

Daisy you are falling right into their hands...they want everyone to be confused!

These 2 pictures were allegedly taken 3 weeks apart from each other? If so, one of the mccanns statements is lying & this is good proof...which photo is the lie?

The hills on the left photo is not the UK though could be Ireland and looks more like Portugal to me, the sea or the sky is not on the british isles unless it was a heatwave of an August. Its not the sea in the background as even in the Caribbean it is not this blue. It looks more like a swimming pool blue to me. Also, on the left is someone wearing the same pink sunhat as in the poolside photo. There are pictures of kate holding Amelie wearing a pink sunhat allegedly taken by the press 2 days after Maddie scam story was released, the thing is with this one is that kate looks so much younger than she did in other photos taken by the media at the same time and also on TV

Maddie looks to be the same in both these pictures and also in the Paul Grover ones. I think the 'Maddies' were taken at the same time in some location (could be Ireland), you get those skirting boards in Ireland, and have used photoshop to try and create them to be at different times and locations. The poolside one can easily be set up in PDL and the head photoshopped on from the UK photoshoot, I see a black line at the bottom of the neck of the poolside one.

And lets not forget one very important factor....gerry had posters printed before the PJ even arrived on the night of 3rd May with a picture of Maddie not taken from the holiday. It took 3 weeks for a picture allegedly from the holiday to be released which would be on the same camera as the poster picture (unless they took a USB stick with them but why?) and this poolside picture did not get released until after gerry had gone back to the UK first.........

Daisy wrote:If Madeleine is dead, wouldn't it make sense for her remains to be buried with her Grandfather John McCann in St Johnstone Donegal? Apparently, (according to Joe People's, Bartender at Mccann Pub & UNDERTAKER) the reason the Mccann clan visit Donegal every Easter is to mark the anniversay of the death of Johnny mcCann. His headstone was only erected there in 2008 - 3 years after he died. I'm thinking, this way, the family could visit the grave with no questions asked, without raising any suspicion? Just a thought.

I was wondering about what you said Daisy and I had a similar thought when I saw that the company registration number for Joe's Bar\People's Bar was also connected with a haulage company which is no longer in operation. On the other hand I believe it would be too risky to transport a body back to the UK, plus as tigger says would also require some consideration and caring for a child they were so disconnected with. It's not entirely out of the question though and I still have my suspicions and doubts about the reason(s) why Donegal features at all in this whole mystery/story.

Have I missed it? but I cannot see the poolside photo in the PJ files from the camera rolls, only the Maddie lookalike photos

tigger wrote:

Get 'em Gonçalo wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

I'll check the larger photo again. Definitely the same age those two. But now I see a line in the neck of the poolside one which imo shouldn't be there. Because of that, the head makes a lot more sense if it's not on the body, there are a lot of mistakes in the neck area in many of the photoshopped pictures. The poolside one has poor little Amelie missing her upper arm, Gerry floating slightly and a flower in the background that blooms in June/July.

Tigger, if you mean the line to the left of Madeleine's chin in the pool photo, I agree that it looks strange as does the neck in both photos. She looks so pale at the pool, in marked contrast to Gerry who, judging by the sweat and sun tan, appears to be somewhere else all together. It's been confirmed elsewhere that the weather in May 2007 wasn't particularly good.

Someone else commented that the pool girl and tennis ball girl don't appear to be the same. I used to think that but, having seen the two photos together, I think they are but definitely not taken with a day or two of each other. There was an early report that Kate felt safe in PDL because she'd been there before. It may of course have been an error but if not, I think it's possible that the pool photo was taken the previous summer. That still doesn't explain why Madeleine looks so pale though!

Nina wrote:

tigger wrote:

Daisy wrote:If Madeleine is dead, wouldn't it make sense for her remains to be buried with her Grandfather John McCann in St Johnstone Donegal? Apparently, (according to Joe People's, Bartender at Mccann Pub & UNDERTAKER) the reason the Mccann clan visit Donegal every Easter is to mark the anniversay of the death of Johnny mcCann. His headstone was only erected there in 2008 - 3 years after he died. I'm thinking, this way, the family could visit the grave with no questions asked, without raising any suspicion? Just a thought.

In the first place, we have Kate herself who stated that their visit to Donegal in 2007 was the first. In the second place, it isn't entirely proved they were ever there. Joe Peoples barely knows them.
I am absolutely not in favour of having Maddie interred somewhere in the UK or Ireland. That implies a certain amount of piety and consideration for the child they never had when she was alive. These are not normal people. The whole religious charade was to satisfy friends and family (I believe Michael Wright is quite religious and may have converted to catholicism) who were complicit in the cover up.
If you can make it to Donegal, that will be interesting!

When a headstone is erected there is some disturbance of the ground, consecrated ground, and sufficient ground moved to bury an urn, or cremated remains, but would there be enough earth removed for the body of a child to be interred.

I agree it is the ideal place for the family to return to pay condolences, and though Kate says it was the first time they went it doesn't mean that it will be the last.

Re their piety, I am not Catholic but consider myself a christian, though my church visits are few and far between. Yes I know that Kate's mother made the comment that they were not particularly religious, but that doesn't make them non believers, just not active re church visits, bet they are now though [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Thanks for your feedback too Nina. Regarding the headstone; I'm not sure how long John Mccann's ashes have been buried in Donegal. According to reports he died and was cremated in Scotland in 2005 (or according to J Peoples 2004), then his ashes taken to Ireland and buried there. Could his remains have been buried at the same time as the headstone was erected In 2008? I know it's usual to leave the ground to settle after burial before erecting the headstone, but how much ground actually needs to be moved to bury an urn? I really don't know.

I also believe what Tigger says about the McCanns wildly exaggerating their Catholic faith; however, John Mccann was certainly buried in accordance to the rules of the catholic church. So I ask myself, why go to all that trouble if they don't abide by their religious principles, when they could have just cremated him in Scotland & scattered his ashes in Ireland?

Marian wrote:That still doesn't explain why Madeleine looks so pale though!

My little grandaughter is pale all summer because of having suncream and a hat on.

Then I heard on the news the other day that kids are getting rickets cos of having suncream slapped on them and they don't get enough vitamin D from the sun.

Hmmm....cancer or rickets? Tough choice.

Lady-Heather wrote:

Daisy wrote:If Madeleine is dead, wouldn't it make sense for her remains to be buried with her Grandfather John McCann in St Johnstone Donegal? Apparently, (according to Joe People's, Bartender at Mccann Pub & UNDERTAKER) the reason the Mccann clan visit Donegal every Easter is to mark the anniversay of the death of Johnny mcCann. His headstone was only erected there in 2008 - 3 years after he died. I'm thinking, this way, the family could visit the grave with no questions asked, without raising any suspicion? Just a thought.

I was wondering about what you said Daisy and I had a similar thought when I saw that the company registration number for Joe's Bar\People's Bar was also connected with a haulage company which is no longer in operation. On the other hand I believe it would be too risky to transport a body back to the UK, plus as tigger says would also require some consideration and caring for a child they were so disconnected with. It's not entirely out of the question though and I still have my suspicions and doubts about the reason(s) why Donegal features at all in this whole mystery/story.

Not if she'd been cremated first? Plus it's perfectly legal to transport someones ashes around within the EU.

The connection to the haulage firm in Co Mayo (republic of ireland not NI) is still puzzling me too.

Daisy wrote:

Not if she'd been cremated first? Plus it's perfectly legal to transport someones ashes around within the EU.
.

It's a possibility isn't it? The PJ certainly thought it was.

Or are these stories just more red herrings?

Maddie hunt at pet crematorium

"PORTUGUESE police today searched an animal crematorium about 5km
from the Praia da Luz resort where four-year-old Briton Madeleine
McCann went missing four months ago, its owner said."

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]


Detectives searching pet crematorium for Madeleine's remains

"THE hunt for Madeleine McCann switched to the Canary Isles last night as
police searched an incinerator for the missing child's remains.

Detectives
swooped on a pet crematorium in the Gran Canaria town of Telde after a
worker there was arrested for attempting to abduct a child."

(Original Daily Express article whoosed.) [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]


Edit: A more detailed article about the crematorium near Praia Da Luz:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Gran Canaria, which means a boat or a flight to get there. Right the other way. So somehow somebody would take the trouble to take the body out there, have it cremated and come back with the ashes. Clearly not the McCanns themselves. Maddie's body is becoming too well-travelled for my liking and I still like the simplest possibilitiy:
There was a body which needed to be hidden prior to being disposed of in a manner and place which would make it virtually impossible to find.
There were contacts and paid help who would arrange that. We were so sure that she will never be found that we actually challenged the police to find the body and prove we did it.
Or:
There was a body which needed to be buried in England and taking it to England was going to be very risky, because for a start it would have to be cold storage and then you'd hope that customs wouldn't check the vehicle (or the yacht - because they specially check private yachts). Customs are usually looking for drugs and they often use dogs so that is pretty difficult too but if we got the body through and managed to keep it cold enough then it had to be stored cold until we could secretly bury it at night in a location which no one would ever find, so it wasn't going to be a good idea to ever visit that place again because we might be seen and we always worry what wild animals or dogs will dig up and then there will still be DNA.....

Besides, cremation is so unlikely. It's not easy to burn a body, quite surprising what remains. Their reaction to the DNA result was that somebody had planted the DNA. So there must have been a body to take DNA from, at least in their frame of reference.

tigger wrote:Gran Canaria, which means a boat or a flight to get there. Right the other way. So somehow somebody would take the trouble to take the body out there, have it cremated and come back with the ashes. Clearly not the McCanns themselves. Maddie's body is becoming too well-travelled for my liking and I still like the simplest possibilitiy:
There was a body which needed to be hidden prior to being disposed of in a manner and place which would make it virtually impossible to find.
There were contacts and paid help who would arrange that. We were so sure that she will never be found that we actually challenged the police to find the body and prove we did it.
Or:
There was a body which needed to be buried in England and taking it to England was going to be very risky, because for a start it would have to be cold storage and then you'd hope that customs wouldn't check the vehicle (or the yacht - because they specially check private yachts). Customs are usually looking for drugs and they often use dogs so that is pretty difficult too but if we got the body through and managed to keep it cold enough then it had to be stored cold until we could secretly bury it at night in a location which no one would ever find, so it wasn't going to be a good idea to ever visit that place again because we might be seen and we always worry what wild animals or dogs will dig up and then there will still be DNA.....

Besides, cremation is so unlikely. It's not easy to burn a body, quite surprising what remains. Their reaction to the DNA result was that somebody had planted the DNA. So there must have been a body to take DNA from, at least in their frame of reference.

Hi Tigger, I think the crem was near PdL it was the man who owned it who was located to Gran Canaria.

I agree all has to be kept simple but cremation is simpler than burial imo.

No Nina, there were 2 separate pet cremotoriums searched, 1 in Gran Canaria, the other near Praia Da Luz (run by a dutchman).

Daisy wrote:No Nina, there were 2 separate pet cremotoriums searched, 1 in Gran Canaria, the other near Praia Da Luz (run by a dutchman).

Oh hec, doh [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] Thanks for the facts [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] Sorry Tigger [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Nina wrote:

Daisy wrote:No Nina, there were 2 separate pet cremotoriums searched, 1 in Gran Canaria, the other near Praia Da Luz (run by a dutchman).

Oh hec, doh [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] Thanks for the facts [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] Sorry Tigger [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

I did read about the one with the Dutchman, I'm pretty sure it was established that the crematorium hadn't been fired up for a very long time.
To burn a body efficiently, you need a very high temperature, Cremation was common in the Iron Age, even so, we've got loads of pieces of bones amongst the ashes in the urns. And DNA.
I would say that burial of a small body would be a lot more discreet and take a lot less time and preparation than burning. I'm not saying I'm right and others are wrong, I'm trying to think like the McCanns and I can truly say that Maddie's body was of no interest to them other than that it should never be found. So the idea of them trying to take it home really doesn't work for me.

Nina wrote:

Moa wrote:

Get 'em Gonçalo wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

If you look at the chin, nose and smile I think it's very easy to see that it is two different girls. Those things never change, your facial futures are what they are and stay like that if you dont take an plastic operation or get sick in some unusual way...

Hi Moa, which do you think are the two?

From my observations I note that the pool/bath girl has a scar through her left eye brow. The pumkin girl looks to have a mouth full of teeth without the gaps, but could be an age thing. Some show a chin with a pointy base, others a flat base.

Certainly the horse picture, who ever she is makes me so sad. A forced little smile from a child who looks ill.

Well the pony girl makes me believe we are looking at three. the pumpkin girls could make it foure...because non of this looks like the others.
I think The fairypink outfit picture looks like the tennis and pdl pool picture. But looks to young as to when the picture is supposed to be taken.¨
If you look at the middle picture in the bottom, she looks much older than any of this three picture. And two of those three are suposed to be taken before that one? well well

If I go along the pics from left to right then:
Pony - girl nr. 1
Fairy - from video and Maddie at age 2-sh. Notice the rather big ears.
Pumpkin - girl nr. 2 (teeth are even, so is neither Maddie nor the Pony girl)
Pool - Maddie scar on left eyebrow which is rarely visible
Tennis girl - ? must be Maddie, look at the ears, which are exactly like another photo of a girl with her hair up, both look older than 4.
Scarf and frizzy hair, could be both same girl, nr. 3, perhaps also pumpkin girl nr 2 at earlier age.
Blonde Maddie without make up! from the photograph of her and the twins, which looks to have been shot by photographer.She looks ill and sad to me.
Poster girl Maddie. Imo that's photoshopped so that she finally looked the way they wanted her to be: perfect, smart and good-looking parents, perfect copy of same.

tigger wrote:

I did read about the one with the Dutchman, I'm pretty sure it was established that the crematorium hadn't been fired up for a very long time.
To burn a body efficiently, you need a very high temperature, Cremation was common in the Iron Age, even so, we've got loads of pieces of bones amongst the ashes in the urns. And DNA.
I would say that burial of a small body would be a lot more discreet and take a lot less time and preparation than burning. I'm not saying I'm right and others are wrong, I'm trying to think like the McCanns and I can truly say that Maddie's body was of no interest to them other than that it should never be found. So the idea of them trying to take it home really doesn't work for me.

Tigger, right at the bottom of the Daily Mail link I gave
earlier, the Dutchman Evert Hoos claims he closed the crem in Mach 2007. (so
not a very long time) He was forced to close it.

Regarding your second point, Mr Hoos also claims "I can guarantee you
there is no smoke and no toxins. We incinerate using a computerised system that
ensures the furnace operates at 900 degrees celsius which is in accordance with
EU standards" Checking with wikipedia (I know it's not the most reliable
source), it says temps of 870-970 celsius for the modern (human)
cremation process. So fit for purpose I'd say.

I agree what you say regarding the McCanns being cold hearted enough not to
care, but what about all the others involved? Because we can be certain, there's
plenty of people that know Madeleine was not abducted. Family,
friends, VIPS - 'Men of the Cloth' etc.. Surely, it would be expected out of
all these people (potentially) involved, that someone would expect, or demand a
dignified resting place for Madeleine? There's no way they'd get away with such
heartlessness?

I'm not saying I agree with all I've said Tigger, it's just a theory, but one I
feel worthwhile debating even if it's just to dismiss it. And you do give a
good debate, getting to the nitty gritty of stuff [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]





Evert (aka Eef) Hoos is
a very interesting character, (spent 6 yrs in Jail for bomb attacks in Sweden?)
I found he's already been discussed in this thread from last year ( some v
interesting comments) [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

And this article (link below) gives some interesting info on how Hoos undertook
work contracts with one government department, despite being under order from
local government to demolish the facilty. The article is dated Apr 2006. Yet he makes no mention of this
fight with the authorities when he presents himself voluntary to the PJ to make
a statement denying his rumored involvement in Madeleine’s disappearance. He
gives a completely different story for the closure. All sounds very dodgy to me.


[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

to return to these which get em kindly has posted side by side...

the reason I made my comment on the similarity was maybe a bit impulsive, because as I was looking closely at that strangely narrow neck on the rocks in Ireland photo [ skies can be blue anywhere on a good day and water around Irish coast can be very blue, and clothes the same as the town one near Tullys so I accept original taken in Ireland], what I thought strange was as follows and I'd be glad of your opinions:

a strange narrow neck is soemtimes seen on photos when a person is turning their head sideways [as in the poolside photo, where the neck does not show the expected look if Maddie is looking in the direction shown here], even so the neck looks all wrong.

there is a sun kissed look on the poolside photo despite the pallor [ maybe as a result of too much light in the photo, maybe as a result of a sun block as Maddie is fair and vulnerable to burning?].....that is the same as the other face taken in Ireland. any chance of a really large poolside photo to show the pink areas on the face? I cant do it sorry!

the face is in both photos looking in the same direction, but one shows a downward tilt of the head. Now I know the hair is a much darker blonde on the Irish one and has been sun-highlighted to a massive extent considering there is only weeks between the 2 photos even if Maddie spent some outdoors time with the creche kids in Ocean Club.

I know also that given the amount of photos of Maddie there will be more than one showing her looking in a particular direction and with a similar facial expression.

However, I really got an immediate impression that the faces on these 2 photos could have been taken within minutes of easch other:

I could easily visualise the little girl looking in one direction, being photographed and then another being taken shortly afterwards as she moved her head to look down [into a pool? but on a different holiday if it is believed the last photo has been altered]....
she could have been looking down then begun looking to the side, or vice versa.....I think the relative position of the two faces and those smiles make it quite easy to visualise this scenario.

the alice- band section of the head with the mid length hairstyle though, taken alone looks in all but colour identical to the hair at the pool.
maybe I looked too closely at these 2 photos and am seeing things that I should not be, reasonably, but I still maintain on that Irish shot there was a different face in that picture to the one we can see, that one we can see looking down is froma different photo, I am pretty sure of that.

has some swapping of hair and separately face maybe gone on.....and what is the motive for the messing around with photos in this timeframe?
there has to be a motive for every action.

I have studied the photo-montage kindly posted a couple of pages back.......Maddie has a very distinctive chin, not as pronounced and unattractive as the one the actress Jennifer Aniston is famous for, but it is noticeable all the same.......a distinctive dip in the middle of her lower jaw where it does not follow a smooth line from one side to the other. It is noticeable even where you dont enlarge or zoom in on a photo.
so now Im seeing this chin in all thesae photos, so am thinking maybe are of the same girl with changes to the smile occurring over time.....its unusual I know but I have seen an unsure or shy smile in so many Maddie photos that I am unsure mysef as to what she looks like when she gives a cheesy grin...

the eyebrow shape is always distinctive so am trying to look closely at those.
want to try and ensure am not seeing things that are nt there due to over analysis

theres a photo on pamalam I cant past in here, Maddie in the fairy outfit caught in motion, def the Maddie I recognise, but the one with the scrunched up eyes and big grin looks like a different girl.........one and the same despite that though. point proved about my over-looking at things.
maybe theres nothing or not as much going on with these photos as I initially supected regarding altering?

I looked at all the pictures on Pamalam's site, and one thing all the pictures of Madeleine have in common is a distinctive pointy chin. So maybe it is all the same girl, but only the chronological order is wrong.

Do you mean this one ?
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]