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Discrepancy Questions

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Re: Discrepancy Questions

Post by Daoud on 22.10.10 17:26

Tony,

REPLY: I wonder if they were sleeping there on any of the nights?

So do I

REPLY: Yes, interesting. Of course, Dr Gerald McCann told David James Smith of 'The Times' that he saw Madeleine curled up asleep 'in the foetal posiiton'...
I believe he actually said 'in the recovery position', but as I'm not sure exactly what that is, the two may well be identical.

REPLY: How certain can we be that all five of these photos were taken on that holiday?

Here's an extract from something I posted on another forum nearly a year ago:
So in the case of Madeleine, what evidence do we have for her presence in Praia da Luz in late April and early May 2007?

(...)

b) Five photographs of Madeleine in Praia da Luz (or more correctly the Ocean Club, PdL), 3 of which appear to have been taken on the day she arrived, judging from her clothes. The fourth, of her on a tennis court, hardly demonstrates her presence in PdL as it could have been taken on a similar tennis court anywhere in the world, and the fifth surfaced some time after her disappearance, despite being, we are told, the 'last photograph' and so readily available to be printed as a poster to help with the search.

(...)

The paltry number of photos of Madeleine - an average of one a day. Given that the McC's children had breakfast and lunch at the apartments (theirs or the Payne's) while spending most of the time in between at the creches, and after lunch were then returned to the creches and from there back to their apartment, with only a 'high tea' near the Tapas beforehand, I suppose it isn't too extraordinary that there were so few photo opps; but there were also very few opportunities for anyone except nannies and the T7 to see the McCs with their children, which could have made releasing the ridiculously dated photos of Madeleine, on the night of her disappearance, rather more likely to go unnoticed.

REPLY: There was the tall man who accompanied her to Reception on, was it Day 1 or Day 2, to change the arrangements for their evening meals, i.e. to book the Tapas restaurant.
HiDeHo has done some excellent work which includes assessing which sightings of Madeleine that week are credible - and in her opinion there was only one, and that was on the Sunday; whether or not the incident you're referring to took place on the Sunday or Monday (I haven't checked but think it was the Monday) it is not this sighting that HDH considers credible.
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Re: Discrepancy Questions

Post by littlepixie on 22.10.10 18:05

Strange that a couple is mentioned again in those newspaper articles. The woman having blonde hair. This couple seem to crop up again and again in this story.

Off the top of my head - couple taking dog to be cremated - couple dragging child up street - "They've" taken her (didnt YM say Kate said something about a couple taking her).
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Was Alex Woolfall suffering acute memory loss?

Post by Tony Bennett on 22.10.10 18:17

THE MOMENT THEY DISCOVERED MADELEINE HAD GONE

Some more discrepancies to consider while we're about it.

I am not sure of the precise actual quotes here, but I think they're correct.

Dr Kate McCann, asked about what happened when she entered their apartment [at about 10.00pm] replied:

"I knew straight away she'd been taken...well, put it this way: I mean, she hadn't walked out of the apartment".

This of course was confirmed in another interview, where she said that she couldn't say why she knew for certain that Madeleine had been abducted 'because of the secrecy of the investigation' - and yet three years later she has still never has told us.

Now then, in the same interview as above, Dr Gerald McCann said: "When I got there and Kate told me, and when I looked at the scene as well, I had absolutely no doubt".

Right, hold that a moment.

'When I got there, and Kate told me...'

I thought that according to the official version, Kate ran down to the 'Tapas bar' screaming 'they've taken her', 'they've taken her'. I thought that (according to the official version) that when she arrived at the Tapas bar, the 'Tapas 9' all (apart from Dianne Webster) rose more or less as one from the table and went to the apartment or started to look for Madeleine. That's also what the docu/mockumentaries seemed to suggest. No doubt Dr Gerald McCann was among the group.

But did Kate run down to the Tapas bar...?

'When I got there, and Kate told me...'

Now, according to a plain reading of that, Dr Gerald McCann is saying, in effect, 'I left the Tapas bar, I got to our apartment, then Kate told me...about how she found the room etc.'

I think this was a 'Freudian slip'. I think that Dr Kate McCann did not run down to the 'Tapas bar'. I think that she stayed in or near her apartment, possibly with Jane Tanner, and that she may well have been the person who let out that terrible scream that was heard by some. I think that the 'Tapas 9' left their Tapas bar table on a pre-arranged signal of some kind, perhaps that scream?

I don't recollect any other witnesses saying they saw or heard Kate running down the lane screaming and arriving at the Tapas bar. And surely to goodness, if Dr Kate McCann had reached the Tapas bar, she and her husband would certainly have run back to the apartment together, Kate trying to tell her husband in a hurry what she had discovered.

So, in saying 'When I got there, and Kate told me...', is it not the case that Dr Gerald McCann is admitting that they did not arrive at the apartment together - and is he in fact admitting that Kate did not go down to the Tapas bar that night but that she stayed in or near the apartment - with Dr Gerald McCann apparently going up to the apartment with the others, but not with Kate?

That seems to me a good indication that Dr Kate McCann did not run down to the Tapas bar as claimed.

There is a further discrepancy in that, according to one witness, Dr Gerald McCann was seen and heard running around the Ocean Club apparently hunting for Madeleine and, quote, 'roaring like a bull'. So did he go straightaway up to his apartment anyway? Possibly not.

To my mind, the exact circumstances under which the alarm was raised remain a considerabe mystery.

But to finish on another, related discrepancy, we've just seen that Dr Kate and Dr Gerald McCann were united in their immediate belief that Madeleine had been snatched by a wicked abductor. Indeed Dr Gerald McCann followed that up with calls in the early morning hours to relatives saying there had been 'a disaster' and that the wicked abductor had 'jemmied open the shutters'.

How then do we account for this quote, from 'The Times':

But Alex Woolfall from the Bell Pottinger PR group said: "They gave no indication that they thought she had been snatched, let alone by a paedophile. Their early assumption was that she had wandered off and had an accident or been taken in by a well-meaning stranger".

The most charitable explanation I can put forward for this truly stunningly massive discrepancy is...well, that perhaps dear Mr Woolfall was suffering from either acute hearing loss or acute memory loss.

Or maybe both?
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The trip to Sagres. Did they go, or didn't they?

Post by Tony Bennett on 22.10.10 18:30

candyfloss quoting the Daily Mail wrote:A shopkeeper in the town said she remembered them well. She said: "On the road into the town, Kate was holding Madeleine's hand. On the other side of the road was Gerry with a baby buggy. "I remember thinking it odd to see him with a baby buggy because I thought the little girl was too old to need one." She said it was the same day as the stranger taking photographs, although other witnesses said that happened two days later.
I am not persuaded beyond doubt that this account is true and I am not persuaded that the McCanns went to Sagres that day or any other day during that week.

But, taking this statement at face value for the moment, these questions arise:

1. The McCanns were walking 'on the road into the town'. Did they take a 'bus to get there? If they went by car, why did they leave the car some way out of town?

2. What time of day was it? This is not given in the article.

3. Why did they have the baby buggy when Madeleine was apparently happily walking?

4. Where were the twins? In the creche? If so, why were they in Sagres with Madeleine and without the twins?

5. If there was a 'stranger taking photographs', could he have been there both days - that day and two days later? It seems unlikley.
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Re: Discrepancy Questions

Post by Angelique on 22.10.10 19:01

HiDeHo

You have raised very good points - and to me it also seems as though nothing fits, none of it - and this to my mind was done on purpose.

Also there are some very good posts before mine which have also shown plausible reasons why no sightings of Madeleine can be confirmed and everything is not as it should be.

The buggy really bugs me - at one point this was the excuse why they didn't go the the Millenium Restaurant and stayed on site and ate at the Tapas Restaurant. G/K said it was too far for the children to walk and they had no buggy. So where did the buggy come from to go to Sagres ? Did they borrow one from one of the other couples holidaying with them .

But it is my opinion that all these discrepancies are there for a reason. So that none of it can be shown to confirm or deny who was where doing what. It's meant to be like this so that Kate and Gerry and all the Tapas7 can never be pinned down, prosecuted and brought to justice. How would any Police enquiry be able to sort through all this information and make it fit. It's like a gigantic jigsaw puzzle with no picture.

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Did they ever go to Sagres?

Post by Tony Bennett on 22.10.10 19:17

@Angelique wrote:The buggy really bugs me - at one point this was the excuse why they didn't go the the Millenium Restaurant and stayed on site and ate at the Tapas Restaurant. G/K said it was too far for the children to walk and they had no buggy. So where did the buggy come from to go to Sagres?
But, Angelique, we have not yet established that this 'sighting' of the McCanns-with-buggy in Sagres is genuine.

I wonder if in fact they decided they were going to spend all of the time in and around the Ocean Club and the beach, therefore they would have left behond the twin buggy they no doubt had in Rothley. Unless they decided to put their double buggy in the luggage hold. They probably reckoned that Madeleine would walk the short distances in Praia da Luz and that each of them could carry one twin around. The visit to Sagres seems unaccountable and of course the McCanns said nothing about visiting Sagres.

Amongst the more pertinent questions for that day are whether they really did agonise, as claimed, as to whether or not to go to the Tapas bar (Dr G McCann: "We nearly didn't go...") and whether they really did thaink seriously about providing extra monitoring for Madeleine and the twins in the light of two of them having, so they claim, having woken up the night before.

Of course these particular questions are redundant if indeed Madeleine was already dead and all the stuff about the two children crying the night before was fabrication.
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Re: Discrepancy Questions

Post by Guest on 22.10.10 19:22

What I don't understand is why there wasn't a lot more intense questioning of who did what on the days leading up to the disappearance. The creche records are impossible to understand, and their rogatory statements give very little detail as to where they were and what they did each day, and did they tally with the creche records. A glaring example is the creche record for April 30th where Madeleine was signed out just 15 minutes after she was signed in. Why didn't the PJ press them on this, why did they not find a reason for why Madeleine stayed for only 15minutes. It could have been something very important and pertinent to the enquiry. Was she ill, were they going somewhere i.e Sagres. Something must have happened for them to sign her out again so quickly imo, else why bother taking her for only 15 mins.
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Re: Discrepancy Questions

Post by Guest on 22.10.10 19:30

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@Angelique wrote:The buggy really bugs me - at one point this was the excuse why they didn't go the the Millenium Restaurant and stayed on site and ate at the Tapas Restaurant. G/K said it was too far for the children to walk and they had no buggy. So where did the buggy come from to go to Sagres?
But, Angelique, we have not yet established that this 'sighting' of the McCanns-with-buggy in Sagres is genuine.

I wonder if in fact they decided they were going to spend all of the time in and around the Ocean Club and the beach, therefore they would have left behond the twin buggy they no doubt had in Rothley. Unless they decided to put their double buggy in the luggage hold. They probably reckoned that Madeleine would walk the short distances in Praia da Luz and that each of them could carry one twin around. The visit to Sagres seems unaccountable and of course the McCanns said nothing about visiting Sagres.

Amongst the more pertinent questions for that day are whether they really did agonise, as claimed, as to whether or not to go to the Tapas bar (Dr G McCann: "We nearly didn't go...") and whether they really did thaink seriously about providing extra monitoring for Madeleine and the twins in the light of two of them having, so they claim, having woken up the night before.

Of course these particular questions are redundant if indeed Madeleine was already dead and all the stuff about the two children crying the night before was fabrication.

Tony, I have been looking for more evidence of this trip to Sagres. There is of course the sighting by a witness to say he saw them there. I found this post on another site
Anonymous said :
Sep 25, 2010 12:29:00 AM


D. Payne and his wife fade in silence with a very low profile after May 3, 2007. Tanner become the main clown on the saga to distort the story and divert the attention of the police, the Media and the public.
Tanner came back to PDL for Gerry Mockmentary.
D. Payne never came back to Portugal but Fiona was the one who went to Lisbon Court with Kate and Gerry and stayed there with Kate. Why her and not Jane?
D. Payne resemble Murat.
There is a high possibility of Murat being known by the group before the fatal incident ( he had participate in an active political campaign in UK with O' Brien, I think, and he use to come to the OC frequently). Murat could be dragged into the saga because of his resemblance with Payne, just in case that somebody spoted Payne.
Madeleine was removed from the flat before the raising of the bells. We talk about the car rented by the Mccann's more then 20 days after this day but very little is known about the vehicles the Tapas 9 were using during their stay in PDL. None rented a Car?
Kate said that they went to Sagres with Madeleine. How they get there? There is a gap of motor vehicles on that saga. An important rented car or a friend ( out of the group) with a car, is missing and can hold some clues of the mystery.



I am sure I can also remember an interview either on video or written where they speak of going. I am hunting for it.
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Re: Discrepancy Questions

Post by Tony Bennett on 22.10.10 19:54

candyfloss wrote:I am sure I can also remember an interview either on video or written where they speak of going [to Sagres]. I am hunting for it.
Well, if one of the McCanns admits that trip to Sagres earlier in the week, then the 'sighting' that day would have to be reconsidered. Always assuming, of course, that the little girl the person saw was Madeleine.
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Re: Discrepancy Questions

Post by Guest on 22.10.10 20:17

Found this in The Independant Haven't seen this article before

snipped


The McCanns' week was not the warmest but it had passed off well. There were tennis sessions on the two courts, where Madeleine stopped for a picture holding tennis balls, and a visit to nearby Sagres, where the family enjoyed a walk through the streets (Madeleine and her mother hand-in hand).



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/a-stolen-child-a-missed-birthday-a-baffling-mystery-448458.html
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Re: Discrepancy Questions

Post by Tony Bennett on 22.10.10 22:15

candyfloss wrote:Found this in The Independant Haven't seen this article before

snipped

The McCanns' week was not the warmest but it had passed off well. There were tennis sessions on the two courts, where Madeleine stopped for a picture holding tennis balls, and a visit to nearby Sagres, where the family enjoyed a walk through the streets (Madeleine and her mother hand-in hand).

[url=http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/a-stolen-child-a-missed-birthday-a-baffling-mystery-448458.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/a-stolen-child-a-missed-birthday-a-baffling-mystery-448458.html[/quote[/url]]
Very interesting.

A couple of points, highligted in blue:

QUOTE


The McCanns' week was not the warmest but it had passed off well. There were tennis sessions on the two courts, where Madeleine stopped for a picture holding tennis balls, and a visit to nearby Sagres, where the family enjoyed a walk through the streets (Madeleine and her mother hand-in hand).



UNQUOTE



There is something about that second sentence. Almost as if someone was saying: "Look, here's proof Madeleine was alive earlier in the week". Two corroborative events are mentioned. "We can prove Madeleine was alive because we have a photograph with tennis balls and someone saw us in Sagres".



The rest of the article is fascinating...lots to comment on for another time maybe.
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Re: Discrepancy Questions

Post by Angelique on 22.10.10 23:19

I see what you mean about it not having been proved about the visit to Sagres. I did actually discuss the "buggy" discrepancy up on another occasion with a colleague and made a note of it but it wasn't relating to the trip to Sagres. But cant think where I put it - will try and find it.

About the article in The Independent :

"The McCanns' week was not the warmest but it had passed off well. There were tennis sessions on the two courts, where Madeleine stopped for a picture holding tennis balls, and a visit to nearby Sagres, where the family enjoyed a walk through the streets (Madeleine and her mother hand-in hand)."

But is this merely the description of the "photograph" - has it actually come from G/K mouth as it were. Or is it just the journalist describing a photograph he has seen or been given and repeating information told to him about the trip.

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No twins?

Post by Tony Bennett on 22.10.10 23:42

@Angelique wrote:Independent: "The McCanns' week was not the warmest but it had passed off well. There were tennis sessions on the two courts, where Madeleine stopped for a picture holding tennis balls, and a visit to nearby Sagres, where the family enjoyed a walk through the streets (Madeleine and her mother hand-in hand)."

But is this merely the description of the "photograph" - has it actually come from G/K mouth as it were. Or is it just the journalist describing a photograph he has seen or been given and repeating information told to him about the trip - Angelique
Hmmm, yes, maybe both references are to photographs, thus the source must be the McCann Team. But I don't think we've ever seen the Sagres photo? And does Dr Kate McCann in any of her statements mention the visit to Sagres?

re: "(Madeleine and her mother hand-in hand)"...

...no mention, once again, of the twins...
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Re: Discrepancy Questions

Post by HiDeHo on 23.10.10 0:22

I posted all the discrepancies in the OP from memory.

There are many, many more (including the buggy).

I have not focused on the Sagres trip as, so far, I have not found anything apart from a news article that could be mistaken.

One thing I don't think I have posted here..(I lose track) is that the 'Diagram of Events' seems to be witholding information from the mini sail on Friday, (we know the twins creche records are not available for that morning also) and some details for Monday and Tuesday.

If I haven't already posted they are worth looking at..

Let me know if interested...I will search for the details and screenshots...

Tony, regarding the calling from the apartment...The 'unknown barman' seems to be of interest for that...

See articles and highlighted staff statements and rota here....

http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/Staff-Rota-and-Statements-1-65276
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Re: Discrepancy Questions

Post by Get'emGonçalo on 23.10.10 7:21

@HiDeHo wrote:If I haven't already posted they are worth looking at..

Let me know if interested...I will search for the details and screenshots...

If you have time, H, it's always worth posting up anything of interest, especially for those of us who haven't seem them and, if necessary, please start a new thread.

Thanks HiDeHo
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Re: Discrepancy Questions

Post by Guest on 09.11.10 22:42

Just been reading about the Martin Smith sighting on mccanfiles. He states that the person carrying the child was carrying her in exactly the same way as GM was carrrying Sean when he got off the plane, that is in an upright postion with her head on his shoulder and arms hanging down not around the man'sneck.

But didn't the McCanns own documentary show the child being carried in front just like the Jane Tanner sighting. To me this is a major discrepancy, if I remember the documentary correctly.
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Re: Discrepancy Questions

Post by Irish Eyes on 09.11.10 23:00


Looks like he was carrying Sean http://goncaloamaraltruthofthelie.blogspot.com/2009/07/chapter-8.html

I'm suprised Kate wasn't surrounded by dogs as she's wearing her pants of ganga and carrying cuddlecat
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Re: Discrepancy Questions

Post by Guest on 09.11.10 23:24

Thank you Irish Eyes, thumbsup yes my mistake, I have edited it.
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Another discrepancy

Post by Tony Bennett on 24.11.10 17:16

It's surely about time to return to these discrepancies...not least because this is the McCanns and their friends tripping themselves up with their own words.

Though I prefer to call them contradictions.

It's so hard when you're lying, isn't it?

Here's one...

In Dr Gerald McCann’s statement of 4 May (the day after Madeleine was reported missing), he says that: “Yesterday [3 May], after the daily routines, Madeleine and and the twins were put to bed in their respective beds at 7.30pm”. Yet when the police arrived at about 11.00pm, they found two cots in the children’s room in the McCanns’ apartment, not a bed or beds. Moreover, in his Vanity Fair interview in January 2008, Dr Gerald McCann said: “The scene was stark. On one bed the twins lay sleeping. In the next lay [Cuddle Cat], which Madeleine was never without”. Once again, Dr McCann refers to beds, whereas two cots were found in the room that night.
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Another contradiction

Post by Tony Bennett on 24.11.10 17:18

And here's another...

Dr Kate McCann said that at her 10.00pm check, when she claimed to have found Madeleine gone, “The first thing I noticed was that the door was open much further than we'd left it”. But how was that relevant, given that two people - her husband and Dr Matthew Oldfield - had allegedly been inside the room since they left for the Tapas restaurant earlier in the evening? How would she know how far they had left the door open?
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Another set of contradictions

Post by Tony Bennett on 24.11.10 17:20

Here's another set of contradictions...

When Dr Gerald McCann and his male friends on holiday were compiling a time line of events that evening, on the cover of Madeleine’s ‘Activity Sticker Book’ Dr Russell O’Brien wrote down this: “9.00pm - Matt Oldfield listens at all three windows - 5A, B, D. ALL shutters down”. According to a timeline provided by Dr McCann to the ‘News of the World’, in 2008, he also said that Matthew Oldfield ‘checked at 9.00pm’. There is no mention of another check at 9.30pm. But Oldfield describes checking the children at 9.30pm. He says that he actually entered Apartment 5a at 9.30pm, but says he saw only the twins because he ‘did not look into the children’s room far enough’. He adds that he ‘thought that the room was looking a little lighter than before’. Oldfield said he entered Apartment 5a ‘by the front door’. If so, he would have passed right by the window to the children’s room. He would have been able to clearly see whether the shutters were up and the window open, as claimed. But in a still later version, Oldfield said that he entered via the patio door. In yet another version, Oldfield had said that at 9.30pm, he did not enter Apartment 5A, but only ‘listened at the window to hear if there was any noise’.
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And yet one more...

Post by Tony Bennett on 24.11.10 17:24

And yet one more...

The McCanns have given three different versions of who read the children bedtime stories on the night Madeleine was reported missing: (a) it was Dr Kate McCann (b) it was Dr Gerald McCann, or (c) they both did.
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And still another one...

Post by Tony Bennett on 24.11.10 17:27

And still another one...

There were claims by the McCanns that they had ‘high tea’ with their three children in Madeleine’s crèche at around 5.30pm the day she was reported missing. One of the nannies, Charlotte Pennington, contradicted herself on the subject. On 18 October 2007, in a ‘Dispatches’ TV programme, she said: “On May 3rd there was just Madeleine I was reading a story to. I later saw them [the McCann family] round about lunch-time. That is the last time I saw them together as a family. But in a later interview for the Daily Mail, she completely contradicted that, saying she last saw the McCann family at 6pm on 3 May. The Mail account ran as follows: “Miss Pennington flew out to start work at Praia da Luz on April 28…She dismissed claims that the McCanns were not seen for six hours leading up to the disappearance. She said: I was helping give the children high tea. The twins were there and Madeleine and both parents. It was supposed to finish at 5.30pm, but because they were a big group and really social, it didn't finish until about 6pm. There was nothing out of the ordinary at all’.” The McCanns themselves in their statements could not agree which of them was supposed to be having high tea with Madeleine and the twins. In other statements made by or on behalf of the McCanns, it was said that at that time (5.30pm to 6pm), Dr Gerald McCann was ‘hanging around the tennis courts’.
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A sixth discrepancy

Post by Tony Bennett on 24.11.10 17:31

And I've just brought this one to mind:


In Dr Gerald McCann’s ‘arguido’ statement of 7 September 2007, he states: “He says that he was playing tennis at 18h30 when David appeared near the tennis court and asked him through the net if he was going to continue playing. The deponent said he didn’t know because Kate might be needing help to look after the three children, even more so because they intended to bring them to the recreation area after their showers”. Clearly, then, although Dr Gerald McCann told David James Smith that he was unable to play tennis because of an Achilles tendon at 4.30pm, he was in fact playing a game of tennis at 6pm. We are now told, however, that the reason that Dr Gerald McCann sent Dr Payne up to his apartment was ‘because Kate might be needing help to look after three children’. Here he again claims: “We intended to bring [the children] to the recreation area after our showers”, despite Dr Kate McCann, back on 6 May, stating to the Portuguese police that the two of them were bathing the children between 5.30pm and 6.00pm, having already decided that the children were not going out any more. There is also that curious reference to bringing the children to the recreation area ‘after their showers’. Dr Gerald McCann does not mention having a shower at all. And Dr Kate McCann said she had just stepped out of the shower when Dr Payne came a-knocking at her front door.
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Tony Bennett

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Re: Discrepancy Questions

Post by Rainbow on 24.11.10 18:01

@Tony Bennett wrote:It's surely about time to return to these discrepancies...not least because this is the McCanns and their friends tripping themselves up with their own words.

Though I prefer to call them contradictions.

It's so hard when you're lying, isn't it?

Here's one...

In Dr Gerald McCann’s statement of 4 May (the day after Madeleine was reported missing), he says that: “Yesterday [3 May], after the daily routines, Madeleine and and the twins were put to bed in their respective beds at 7.30pm”. Yet when the police arrived at about 11.00pm, they found two cots in the children’s room in the McCanns’ apartment, not a bed or beds. Moreover, in his Vanity Fair interview in January 2008, Dr Gerald McCann said: “The scene was stark. On one bed the twins lay sleeping. In the next lay [Cuddle Cat], which Madeleine was never without”. Once again, Dr McCann refers to beds, whereas two cots were found in the room that night.


I dont think that is so much a discrepancy but rather a different way of describing,I have used both to describe a cot.
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Rainbow

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